1 John is an enormous problem for Prots

How do sola fide Prots deal with 1 John? We read

>Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar.
It is impossible to know Christ unless you keep everything he commanded in the Gospels. This means it is impossible to be saved unless you keep his commandments, which are works.

>By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
We are only “in Christ” if we behave like him. Salvation is “in” or “through” Christ, which means we must behave like Christ to be saved.

>No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
Sinners do not know Christ, which means they are not saved as they do not abide in him.

>let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
Good works means you are righteous, and people will try to persuade you otherwise — those people are liars.

>Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil
Sinners are not saved, they belong to Satan not Christ

>whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Unless you habitually do good works, and habitually love your brother, you are not of God and will not be saved.

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  1. 5 months ago
    Worker

    You have a flawed understanding of Protestantism.

    1 John is actually a key text used by Protestants for helping someone know if their conversion was genuine or not. Because Protestants know (from the Bible) that legitimate conversions result in repentance and good works.

    Christians (Protestants) believe that we will do good works after we have been saved. This is what 1 John teaches.

    HOWEVER, Protestants also know that good works are not what save us. It is false religions that teach that we are saved by our good works. NO, we are saved first by grace, and good works will follow from our salvation.

    Does this make sense?

    >8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
    Ephesians 2:8-10

    Ephesians 2 teaches that we are saved through our faith. This faith is not from works; it is a GIFT FROM GOD. So we are saved by our faith, as a gift, not from our works. And then, in verse 10, we find that AFTER we are saved, we go on to do good works.

    Do you see how deadly it is to believe that you can be saved by your works? It's not salvation by works; it's salvation by faith, and good works will follow from faith (see James and 1 John).

    >Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
    Romans 10

    If you believe that you are saved by your works, then you deny Christ's righteousness.

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

      5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

      8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right.

      • 5 months ago
        Worker

        I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make.

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          You are practically saying the opposite of Ezekiel 18 by claiming grace.

          A righteous man cannot sin because it is abhorrent to his eyes and damaging to his soul, not because he was saved. You must change your heart if you really want to be a follower of Christ, be born again of water (knowledge of scripture like I have shown you) and spirit (willingness to change into whatever form God needs you for the plan)

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            You're advocating for an even stronger form of protestant justification, something like holiness doctrine

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      19 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy.

      3 “‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God.

      9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God.

      14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

      15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      What if person sins after being "saved".
      He wasn't being saved after all?

      • 5 months ago
        Worker

        Believers don't make a practice of sinning. We have been freed from sin, and we will leave behind our old way of life. We will grow in holiness as we are sanctified. Our lives will show a growing holiness.

        >26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
        Hebrews 10:26-31

        Believers will occasionally fall into sin (David adulterating with Bathsheba, Peter denying Christ, Isaiah having "unclean lips" etc.) but there is a marked difference between being a Christian compared to someone who is still dead in their sins. Christians will hate sin, they will be freed from bondage to sin, they will seek after righteousness and will continue to grow in holiness (being sanctified by the Spirit).

        You are practically saying the opposite of Ezekiel 18 by claiming grace.

        A righteous man cannot sin because it is abhorrent to his eyes and damaging to his soul, not because he was saved. You must change your heart if you really want to be a follower of Christ, be born again of water (knowledge of scripture like I have shown you) and spirit (willingness to change into whatever form God needs you for the plan)

        So you've never sinned since claiming to be born again? What point are you trying to make? If you're saying that Christians will grow in holiness and away from sin, then I agree of course.

        >You must change your heart if you really want to be a follower of Christ
        No, God will change your heart. You can't change your heart.

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Believers don't make a practice of sinning. We have been freed from sin, and we will leave behind our old way of life. We will grow in holiness as we are sanctified. Our lives will show a growing holiness.
          Jesus says not to do business with the fig tree (the system, the same one that uses churches as they did the temple), to sell all your belongings and follow him

          Meanwhile you follow Paul who says "SLAVES, OBEY your EARTHLY MASTERS with FEAR" in Ephesians.

          Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

          5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

          8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right.

          >6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      >. It is false religions that teach that we are saved by our good works.

      I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make.

      Jesus didn't come to void the law, he came to fulfil it

      Be careful with the words you're using, Pauline shill.

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      Your passage in Ephesians has the key term “in Christ Jesus”,l. John clarifies what “in Christ Jesus” means: doing good works.

      According to John, we are only “in Christ” provided we behave like Christ. This is what “walk like he walks” means. Lastly he tells us to practice righteousness.

      • 5 months ago
        Worker

        Ephesians explicitly says that we aren't saved by good works...

        BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH

        and this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING;

        it is the GIFT of GOD,

        NOT A RESULT OF WORKS

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          The full relevant text of Ephesians:
          >God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together WITH CHRIST —by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS,
          >by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

          The distinction is not “by works” but “by your own works”. The author of Ephesians tell us we were created *in Christ*, for good works.

          John clarified what *in Christ* means. It means behaving, acting like Christ. The works that we do as a result come from Christ. But it’s still works. We are saved by being *in Christ* which involves works.

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            >not by your own works
            >we are saved by being *in Christ* which involves works
            You're contradicting yourself

            The work that saves is the finished work of Christ. We are justified, therefore we perform works as a result, not contributing to our salvation.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            What Paul, who did not write a gospel, is saying is that we are saved by being IN CHRIST.

            What John, who wrote a gospel and is this more authoritative, says about being IN CHRIST is that it is the practicing of good works in the spirit of Christ.

            Here’s the difference: some guy named Henry doing good things to glorify Henry is bad. Hence it is not those “good works”. Henry needs to do good works in the spirit of Christ. Hence even Paul says
            >CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS

            Henry should not do Henry’s good works to glorify Henry. Henry being saved by Christ does good works and attributes them to Christ. Why else do you think Paul says “created in Christ to do good works”? And actually the word used for “to do”, epi, is better translated

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            Right but the location is Christ is prior to the works. You're in Christ, then you do works. The works do not gain cause one to become "in Christ".
            >it is the gift of God, not a result of works

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            “Doing good works in Christ” is the gift of god. The problem with saying “only faith” is that being in Christ and doing good works in Christ are the same exact thing. There is no space or distance between putting on Christ and immediately doing good works. Being in Christ involves doing all the same works as Christ and waking the same way. It’s an imitation of Christ.

          • 5 months ago
            Worker

            >“Doing good works in Christ” is the gift of god.
            Being saved is the gift. Paul is saying that salvation is a gift by grace, through face, not a result of works:
            >For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works

            And then good works follow from being saved:
            >For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

            This is very explicit. and there's no way getting around it. Your problem is that you think you can justify yourself before God, which you can't. Until you submit to Christ's righteousness, you will be lost.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            You’re forgetting though that salvation is from being IN Christ. It’s more than just believing Christ is righteous, you have to be a living image of Christ. What’s the purpose of dividing that from the works of Christ? When it is written that we are saved “in Christ” that means by acting as Christ. A Christian should be imitating Christ to be saved.

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            >to be saved
            Your imposition

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Ephesians 2:18
            > For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

            Through him, namely through the imitation of Christ and through the spirit of Christ.

            In Colossians:
            > And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            These citations do not make your point. Ephesians 2 does not say access is attained by works, as has already been pointed out. Colossians does not say your good works merit your salvation, the "you" is a regenerate person.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            If we are told to be *in* Christ, and that we have access to the Father *through* Christ, this means imitating and being like Christ. Which is all about good works. The reason they don’t say “works save you” is because it’s not works alone, it’s the work of Christ. But those works are what we do in Christ.

            Simply put, we are saved by being Little Christs, not by simply saying some words or having some beliefs and opinions.

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            Your conclusion not only doesn't follow from the citations, it's directly contradicted by Ephesians 2
            Salvation is prior to works in Christ. Works alone do not save, works plus something does not save.

            True or false?
            >you are saved by grace, through faith, not of works

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            15656070
            We are saved by imitating Christ, and Christ Himself is a gift. This is why it’s not “work”, because Christ comes from God. Faith *in* Christ means imitating Christ.

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            True or false on my statement?

          • 5 months ago
            Worker

            >You’re forgetting though that salvation is from being IN Christ.
            Correct. When we believe in Christ, we are crucified with Him. We share in His death and resurrection through faith in Him.

            I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
            Galatians 2:20

            When we place our faith in Christ, we are born again. We now live by faith, in Christ.

            For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
            Romans 1:17

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            And “whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked”. If your faith is just a belief, it does nothing. You need to imitate Christ.

          • 5 months ago
            Worker

            Lol, you need to understand that I completely agree with the points you're making. But as Dirk said, you have the cart before the horse. You can't imitate Christ while not having been born again. You imitate Christ AFTER you've been born again.

            That's why Romans 8:8 said:
            >Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

            That's why we need to submit to Christ's righteousness by putting our faith in Christ alone. We don't put our efforts into trying to be like Christ BEFORE we've been saved, because we can't (see Romans 8:8). It's AFTER we've placed our faith in Christ that we can be like Christ and live lives of righteousness.

            Do you see the distinction here?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            What do you think is magically going on when you say a person “has faith” in Christ? This will only lead to a sin-free life if it consists in the imitation of Christ. I see no shortage of prostitutes on my social media who have biblical quotes about faith in Christ splattered in their bio and they go on sinning and will sin until they die

            As the Apostle John says, knowing Christ means keeping his commandments, and abiding in Christ (which is perfect faith) means imitating him. and as Jesus says, if you love me (Jesus) you will keep my commandments.

          • 5 months ago
            Worker

            I completely understand where you're coming from. I think you'd really enjoy this sermon. Even listen to the first few minutes and I think you'd agree with the message and learn from it:

            Yes, religious hypocrisy is a huge issue and something that I personally have a deep loathing for. It's important to realise that a true faith in Christ will result in living a Christ-like life, and this is something that true Protestant teachers have emphasised for centuries. The distinction though is that our salvation and good deeds come from a true faith, and it's not the other way around.

            Again, I really think you'd enjoy the sermon

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            How can ye ignore The Pillar and the Ground of Truth and also claim to be born again, Worker? How can ye say you hate hypocrisy while also being hypocritical? Ye have no understanding of Scripture, but ye preach and preach and preach, leading fools astray? Do ye not know that ye shall answer before the Lord for their souls as well as yours?
            Repent, oh my brother, repent!

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Answer my posts, shill

            >Believers don't make a practice of sinning. We have been freed from sin, and we will leave behind our old way of life. We will grow in holiness as we are sanctified. Our lives will show a growing holiness.
            Jesus says not to do business with the fig tree (the system, the same one that uses churches as they did the temple), to sell all your belongings and follow him

            Meanwhile you follow Paul who says "SLAVES, OBEY your EARTHLY MASTERS with FEAR" in Ephesians.

            [...]
            >6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

            You work for the hand that holds a threatening whip, that's the opposite of what the Israelites did in Egypt when they followed Moses.

            As long as you don't realize you're a slave of the world, you won't be able to be freed by God. The only other option is that you're a covert agent trying to make Christianity subservient to the empire just like Paul (what a surprise, the one you preach instead of Jesus) did.

            Isn't it weird how you haven't Jesus nor the old testament?

          • 5 months ago
            Dirk

            Sola fide does not imply a separation here. The protestant position is that salvation is necessarily and inextricably tied to works. That's what James 2 says. The point is that the horse is in front of the cart.

            You have more than likely had a deliberate misrepresentation of this doctrine given to you. Do some historical research on the issue.

      • 5 months ago
        Anonymous

        It also says in Philippians 1:6 the following: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

        So it is not man that works good, but God works in the saved person. The believer can't boast about good works, seeing as it is God working in their life rather than themselves.

        "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
        (Philippians 2:13)

        • 5 months ago
          Worker

          Thank you for participating in the sharing of the truth, friend

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      I remember ye, Worker, peddling your middle American youth pastor understanding of Scripture. How can ye sleep at night knowing that you spout what you don’t understand on this basket weaving forum, leading poor zoomies astray?
      Repent, oh my brother, repent for the Day of the Lord is drawing nigh and ye haven’t relinquished thy pride, which shall lead you to the second death, your soul burning in the lake of fire.

  2. 5 months ago
    Dirk

    Sola fide is not antinomianism

  3. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    You work for the hand that holds a threatening whip, that's the opposite of what the Israelites did in Egypt when they followed Moses.

    As long as you don't realize you're a slave of the world, you won't be able to be freed by God. The only other option is that you're a covert agent trying to make Christianity subservient to the empire just like Paul (what a surprise, the one you preach instead of Jesus) did.

    Isn't it weird how you haven't Jesus nor the old testament?

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