Abstraction is the reason why software is so bloated

If ASM was the only language to exist. Everything would be much more simple. The programmers would not have enough time in the day to add bloat. YET ANOTHER example of "innovation" making things worse and not better. Much like how when the electric drill was invented, 2 employees with manual drills became 1 employee with an electric drill, and the other one got fired. The only one who benefits from this "time saving" technology is the top 1%. Not the working class.

>inb4 yet another NEET cope thread
If you type this then you're missing the point.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >time saving is le bad
    computers were made to save time, not for people to play games

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Kaze is great, I love whenever he posts his crazy shit.

      https://i.imgur.com/aGOT2Dg.png

      If ASM was the only language to exist. Everything would be much more simple. The programmers would not have enough time in the day to add bloat. YET ANOTHER example of "innovation" making things worse and not better. Much like how when the electric drill was invented, 2 employees with manual drills became 1 employee with an electric drill, and the other one got fired. The only one who benefits from this "time saving" technology is the top 1%. Not the working class.

      >inb4 yet another NEET cope thread
      If you type this then you're missing the point.

      von Neumann gave people shit for using assembly.
      Anyways, I think abstraction is fine as long as compilers are good. Remember how C used to make code like 5x slower? Now we're at a point where C is just as good as assembly 99% of the time. Eventually we'll probably get there with higher level languages.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >kaze has to fight the compiler to get it to do what he wants it to do

        is there really no way to escape the compiler menace?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          It might always be required to do stupid shit like that when you're trying to squeeze every last instruction out of your code.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            yeah, the average program probably doesn't have such autistic efficiency in mind for a 97MHz CPU like N64 has. Maybe C compilers aren't so cringe after all. But I wouldn't go higher than C if you care about efficiency at all. (most programmers dont').

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >99% of the time
        99% of the bytecode you write in C does not need to even exist, so whether that useless code is faster than the equivalently useless asm is irrelevant.
        I'm eternally unconvinced by the "compilers are faster now" argument, both facially and ontologically.
        Repeating this tired truism like it makes asm programming pointless indicates that you haven't put in nearly enough time trying to hand-optimize and benchmark anything to approach "speed-of-light", and are looking for excuses to not learn.
        Not learning is normally fine, performance asm programming has been niche for decades, but what isn't fine is that you're artificially discouraging people from it by repeating things you don't know, and that you should know you don't know.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >I'm eternally unconvinced by the "compilers are faster now" argument, both facially and ontologically.
          Well maybe you're just too young to remember. You can just download some compilers from the 90s on archive.org and compare their assembly to a modern compiler, it's a huge fricking difference.
          >but what isn't fine is that you're artificially discouraging people from it by repeating things you don't know, and that you should know you don't know.
          What isn't fine is lying to people and acting like compilers haven't made huge strides. Even something as high level as Rust is fine most of the time.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I recently started RE a z80 derivative binary dumped into a ASM (without Ghidra) and I wanted to blow my brains out.

      I love the work that Kaze does, but absolutely despise the toxic programmer culture he's created.

      dont actually learn risc v assembly unless you are specifically doing something academic with it. nobody actually cares about it. The only thing I've gotten out of learning it was that some of it translated to arm knowledge
      arm is neat

      RISC-V isn't an academic ISA.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >toxic programmer culture he's created.
        qrd?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I don't think he created the culture. FFmpeg twitter has been like that for a long time.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >RISC-V isn't an academic ISA.
        a couple different version of the instruction set manual explicitly have stated it is mainly for academic and research. the most recent version does not but nothing about sifive has changed

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/riscv-spec.pdf

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >originally

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >we now *hope*
            just because an extremely small subset of dorks hope it becomes anything more than a research and academia ISA does not mean that it *is*

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Well, it's more than academic research now. I even used the ISA in products our company sold.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >the toxic programmer culture he's created.
        Yeah, what? That good programmers who are know what they're doing can also be uptight?
        I'm not saying it's right for them to be so, but they're the ones most deserving of that attitude.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >who are know
          Remove "are", originally wrote "are talented"

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        if anything Kaze emphasizes why compilers are so remarkable.
        all of these compiler flags we have now make up a huge chunk of his speedups. Just running the decomp with sensible compiler flags does remarkable things.
        The rest of what he does is just knowing a single specific device's idiosyncratic performance bottlenecks. But at no point does he say "hurr compiler bad". Quite the opposite.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >If ASM was the only language to exist. Assembly is a language family. There is no single programming language called "Assembly."

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    it would be pretty cheap to sustain humans in post-AGI world. Just hope you're one of the last to be replaced by AI so that you can enjoy UBI as soon as you get replaced.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Most bloat is just oversized assets and large buffers.

  6. 1 month ago
    baritone

    >AT&T syntax
    opinion discarded.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >tripcode namegay
      opinion discarded

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Abstraction also lets us get things done in time and helps us to avoid bugs.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >AAA gamedev
      >scripts are a derivative of scratch
      >still a buggy mess on launch
      oops! try again

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >get things done in time
      bloat

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    sure! now have fun doing math without operator*. abstracting repeated addition would be bloat.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      well, irl time bloat but not software bloat.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >abstraction
    😐
    >abstraction (implemented in microcode)
    :O

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This. CPUs are an abstraction. You could for example write everything in Verilog (though Verilog also is an abstraction) to be much more efficient, just that writing an application would require manufacturing a new chip.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      the thread is about bloat, not mindless hatred for abstraction.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        that's not what OP says. by the way:

        https://i.imgur.com/aGOT2Dg.png

        If ASM was the only language to exist. Everything would be much more simple. The programmers would not have enough time in the day to add bloat. YET ANOTHER example of "innovation" making things worse and not better. Much like how when the electric drill was invented, 2 employees with manual drills became 1 employee with an electric drill, and the other one got fired. The only one who benefits from this "time saving" technology is the top 1%. Not the working class.

        >inb4 yet another NEET cope thread
        If you type this then you're missing the point.

        have a nice day OP. you dumbfrick.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          oh really, I'm the dumbfrick? tell me the part of the OP where I mindlessly hate abstraction. I'll bump this thread and wait fricking forever because you can't find it. idiot.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >YET ANOTHER example of "innovation" making things worse and not better
            you can stop waiting because there's your example you dumb homosexual

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            so you clearly don't like my example of the electric drill destroying the balance of society by pushing money only the business owners and making the QOL of the working class. (Not a communist, just making an observation).

            This example is to show morons that I'm NOT mindlessly and emotionally hating on abstraction, and that my hatred of abstraction is rooted in something logical.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >making the QOL of the working class.

            *making the QOL of the working class worse*

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            i literally pointed out the part that you asked for and now you're bringing up a bunch of other shit. kys.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            you tried and failed to bring up an example of me mindlessly hating on abstraction.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It's so funny how 99 times out of 100 the people who rail against high level languages are Linux babyducks who love using plain text files for everything, unaware of how atrociously inefficient and dangerous it is

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Eveything is a text file

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        No it isn't lol
        You pass on the overhead of human readable 'text files' to the interpreter. The computer doesn't care if you can read the file or not, it'd much rather take the binary. Linux babyducks are the biggest posers ever, even windows kernel doesn't do this.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    that will be nice and all but some fricker will invent a scripting language and some manager will buy it so they can get a raise by having their team be 10x more productive than others

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I wish I lived in an authoritarian country in which the dictator keeps the balance of things in check. (I know that doesn't actually happen in authoritarian countries, but a man can dream).

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Yet another dunning kruger thread

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    it's lack of abstraction that is the reason why software is so bloated, but you'll understand when you're older

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    i don't know what any of those words mean but i agree

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    what's with the influx of absolutely moronic bait threads lately?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      You lost the "argument" by not even presenting one. A wise man once said "if during a debate, you say something and the opponent can only laugh as a defense, then you know you've just discovered something rock-solid."

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        can the mods please do something about these reddit-Black folk shitting up the board? jfc.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >MOOOOOOOOOOODS

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          kek, as if crying for mods isn't the most reddit thing a person can do.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      can the mods please do something about these reddit-Black folk shitting up the board? jfc.

      they are not baiting they really do believe this shit. you think i'm kidding? go to any place with zoomer shitheads and redditors you'll see.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        also the concurrence of baby boomer mass retiring. This is a real horrer show

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    ok but why not arm or even risc v assembly
    something useful

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      do these architectures have any flaws? they sound too good to be true. Why aren't they in every computer by now?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        dont actually learn risc v assembly unless you are specifically doing something academic with it. nobody actually cares about it. The only thing I've gotten out of learning it was that some of it translated to arm knowledge
        arm is neat

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    ok you're handwriting an assembly software - which processor architecture are you targeting? you choose normal amd64 - whoops your program is underperforming. ok let's try x86-64-v4 - whoops it doesn't run on most the CPUs now.

    damn I wish I had something that would take my code and create multiple function variants that easily use the most optimal opcodes depending on the currently running computer

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      are you arguing that it never should have gotten higher than C?

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Good abstractions are highly composable and therefore greatly reduce overall LOC.

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    > YET ANOTHER example of "innovation" making things worse
    upvoted

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    OP has a point, considering one of the greatest games ever made was written entirely in x86 assembly. None of the slop people make today in high level game engines comes even close to the gameplay depth of Transport Tycoon and Roller Coaster Tycoon.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >gameplay depth

      >build shit
      >peeps come
      >manage budget
      >steadily expand
      >don't be moronic

      anon, i love rtc but the idea that the game is 'deep' is absurd. no, some homosexual youtuber going over the engine doesn't mean the game is deep either. engine mechanics =/= gameplay mechanics.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Transport Tycoon and Roller Coaster Tycoon
      I don't care if it's programmed in js or raw machine code, if the game's popular you know it's going to be shit.

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    we wouldnt have 99% of the software we have today if we only had assembly you stupid nocoder homosexual

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >we wouldnt have 99%
      this is a bad thing?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >you must give up everything that I benefit from

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Apple
          Every time

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          you misunderstand, I think I personally could live with 1% of all software that exist today

          if you think about it, if instead of assigning a numeric ratio, just restrict me to only software written in C or lower and I think I would be fine.

          plus in this hypothetical universe other languages wouldn't exist or something, so I am sure useful things like portage would exist, just written in C.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >we wouldnt have 99% of the software we have today if we only had assembly you stupid nocoder homosexual

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

      >IMPLYING THIS IS A BAD THING

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >be me
    >optimize my C/C++/C#/JS code to be cache friendly since that is the only bottleneck in modern CPUs
    >gap some turbovirgin incel with autism about ASM handwriting every instruction but clueless about memory latency bottleneck

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      You're right but hand written asm can still be important for DSP-like tasks. CPU designers didn't add that whole SIMD shit for nothing.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        one main memory fetch stalls the entire pipeline u moron, nothing else matters, cachegrind is all you need, everything else is 99.999% diminishing returns compared to fixing main mem hits/cache misses, SIMD/AVX2/AVX512 s just legos for autists "mom look i can use two hands at once", 80ns main mem hit is 80/(1/6GHz) ~480 cycles stall PER MAIN MEMORY FETCH, so 1:480

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Peak Dunning-Kruger.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            rope neck jump
            https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/216585.216588

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Everything would be much more simple
    horse shit. kolmogorov complexity explodes for assembly too, many current software would take "quadratically" more time to write and some would be out of reach for decades.
    mistakes would be plenty and software would take forever to improve, people would invent abstractions no matter how hard you fight against them.
    you have no idea how simple computers were just 20 years ago, their complexity grew exponentially since and software with them.
    I do agree that lots of code out there is dogshit, included yours and mine, the best code is the code taht can be discarded and rewritten fast.
    taht's really the only thing that matter in software architecture, as soon as you introduce "long" data dependency chains you already failled at software design.
    also you DO know that asm is already an abstraction over the cpu internal representation, right? what if intel and amd unlocked access to these things so we could control the pipeline and register renaming (for example)?
    I can guarantee you that some people would manage to get a few picoseconds here and there but at what cost? trust me, you don't want to go that deep and assembly is already a MASSIVE tradeoff and most arch are leaving a lot of performance on the table.

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    moronic take, agreed

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      best post in this whole thread lol. Basically another way of saying "based moron".

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    IM HATE UNICODE
    https://pastebin.com/ViDa1ich
    https://filetransfer.io/data-package/yjyec4e0#link

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