>ah yes...

>ah yes... actually all babies do go to heaven if they die
What caused so many pastors and churches to embrace this horrific Pelagian belief?

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Worldly influence and weak faith

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    he knew god sending babies going to hell doesn't make people trust you or your religion

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >tell lies to appease the wicked

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Why do you think a God who sends babies to Hell is trustworthy?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          It doesn't matter if god sends babies to hell, the point is that we need to worship god out of fear like good old fashioned god fearing Christians.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why do you think a God you worship out of fear is trustworthy?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I think they only get sent to purgatory. Nobody gets sent to hell until the final judgement.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          What is the correlation between sending babies to hell and being untrustworthy?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Sounds like God is a super Satan such as creating billions of Chinese & Indians to burn in hell, and beloved pets to not be there in heaven.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Eh, just give some exoteric doctrine that’s easy for the masses to swallow, hell isn’t even a real part of the Christian message anyway as much as the second death whatever that truly means. Very few people have eyes to see and ears to hear, so give them whatever bullshit they can digest in the meanwhile

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        "To object that Limbo is against the justice and mercy of God is to imply that
        grace and salvation are owed to us, that somehow the human race
        has a right to be redeemed.

        It should be remembered that Karl Rahner, the mentor of Ratzinger,
        held that man is "inconceivable without grace" i.e. that a good
        relationship with God is something connatural to the human being.

        Some might object that many babies do not have the opportunity of
        getting baptized therefore should not be penalized for something
        that they could not help. I respond that they are conceived in a state
        which requires punishment. They contract original sin in conception.
        and together with their first parents and the rest of humanity, owe the
        debt of original sin.
        Furthermore, their justification, whether it is through the sacrament of
        baptism or through baptism of blood- they being incapable of baptism
        of desire

        is necessarily part of God's decree of predestination to
        glory i.e. God's plan and intention to bring some souls but not
        all to heaven. When He so wills, He wills for them all the means
        necessary to achieve this end."
        -Bishop Donald Sanborn

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I believe in universalism because God who created the hundreds of trillions of galaxies is capable of more mercy than the Nords/ Swedes who pull off rehabilitation of inmates just fine.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Some people would never repent ever. They would laugh at the mercy given.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            There are cops who arrest or give heavy fines to individuals or organizations who feed the homeless.

            There are also store owners who would rather dump bleach on consumable food in dumpsters & cut up clothes that can be donated to homeless shelters.

            I feel that hell is not brim stone & fire because as we all know of criminals who laughed in the faces of victims families as they are going to prison for life. If you send these bad souls to brim stone & fire they'll preceive themselves as victims.

            So this is what I think hell, a dimension created by a just & compassionate god. A true hell would be about making an invidual come to terms to what they did was wrong, by making them do communitiy service that is matches the type of sin a person created.

            For instance the cops who ticket or jail people for giving food to the homeless will be forced to do communal kitchen work, for a few centuries.

            I have a beautiful vision of people who are in the progress of being rehalibated in the after life, and as they slowly come to terms of their wrong doing then their clothes literally fall apart until they are naked like Adam and Eve were.

            Once they are purified of their sins they then stand before god naked in flesh.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Some people would never repent ever. They would laugh at the mercy given.

            >Some people would never repent ever. They would laugh at the mercy given.
            Which since God believes in free will, is the only reason I do not believe in full universalism

            If people, in their pride, take every opportunity they have to reject God, God will let them instead of overriding them like insects into stop hurting themselves.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Baptism of blood do not save, sanborn is truly pathetic , he truly errs on BOD, supporting the thesis and also denying
          Only catholics can be saved

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        God can a few of them faith and repentance right before death. If God is the one who gives faith it makes sense.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        It has sense when you realize that religion was created to unite some and make enemies to others

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    israelites probably

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because babies are born atheist (lack of belief in anything) which would imply they should all go to Hell, but that wasn't a very good look for Christians so they had to retcon that part of the story

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Pelagius believed that you were morally obligated to live a perfect life to earn your way into heaven and when Augustine pressed him on it he didn't answer whether babies go to heaven or hell since they technically didn't deserve either, so basically he assumes they went to limbo

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >technically didn't deserve either
      So what age do they need to be to deserve hell?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        whatever age self-awareness develops

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >whatever age self-awareness develops
          So it is whatever is convenient for the sensibilities of modern world? We are all born with an evil lust and inclinations.
          They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. (Psalm 14:3)

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt
            Surely this is referring to men, and, more pointedly, Israelites, at a specific point in their history. The fact that they "have become corrupt" would imply that they were not corrupt as infants. We learn from the OT that God is gentle with the ignorant. What could be more ignorant than an infant? To say that He damns these children is to go beyond what the Bible teaches. I cannot help but feel you're labouring under Augustinian suppositions.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >We learn from the OT that God is gentle with the ignorant.
            We also learn that God creates life and kills, and is therefore the cause of death for infants; one of his miraculous acts is literally killing all the firstborn children in Egypt for the sins of Pharaoh, did he care about their ignorance there?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >We also learn that God creates life and kills, and is therefore the cause of death for infants; one of his miraculous acts is literally killing all the firstborn children in Egypt for the sins of Pharaoh, did he care about their ignorance there?
            Death is only something meaningful if you're an atheist that thinks it is synonmous with the end of existence.
            Why would it matter if God kills infants, if those infants are just going back into his care?
            It's like the old Japanese beliefs about babies and young children still having one foot in the spirit world that they used to justify infanticide. If the baby is just going to go back to the cosmic dmv to get a new ticket number and wait for reincarnation, why would killing an infant be bad?

            If infants just go back to God when their life ends, why is it bad for God to end the lives of infants?
            >Then why is it bad when I kill an infant?
            You're not God. This is like asking why the Biden administration has the legal right to sue Texas for enforcing immigration laws. Regardless of whether or not the federal government is meeting its obligations, state governments have no right under the present legal framework to do the federal government's job. Just like you don't have the authority to play God and God is operating well within the boundaries of reason when he punishes you for doing so.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            God killed babies as a punishment to the Egyptians. Do you think he killed the babies because he was secretly taking them to heaven? Was Moses suppose to tell Pharoah lol it's okay that an entire generation of children were kill God took them to heaven lmao. No matter how you square it he does things that to us are senseless.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            We are sinners.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You're autistic
            The Egyptian babies weren't being punished, their families were. Why would Moses try to comfort the Egyptians when the whole point was to punish them?

            >No matter how you square it he does things that to us are senseless.
            >No matter how you square it he does things that to us are senseless.
            Do you genuine think that everything that happens to you has to make sense?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The Egyptian babies weren't being punished, their families were.
            Their families includes the babies. Are you unfamiliar with OT justice?
            >For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me
            Exodus 20:5

            >Do you genuine think that everything that happens to you has to make sense?
            No it doesn't and that's why I don't presume that he sends babies to heaven even if it would make sense to us.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        He thought most people were going to hell for their sins, so it'd be whenever they sinned. In Pelagianism Jesus doesn't actually atone, he just gave the perfect example for the world to follow and your fate depended on you imitating his example as an ascetic.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >so it'd be whenever they sinne
          So you don't believe in biblical original sin?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Original sin isn't in the Bible, which is why a whole half of the Church never embraces it. Augustine invents it out of a bad translation of Romans and pure speculation.

            Show me anywhere in the Bible where it seems to show sin being based on through sperm the way Augustine thought. Read God's pronouncement after the Fall. God talks about the whole world being fallen, "cursed is the ground because of you." In no place is there anything to the effect of "cursed is you nature because of you." Most of the statement is about non-human entities, with God's pronouncement on Eve bearing children in pain and desiring her husband being the one exception.

            To be sure, man has a sinful nature, but having a nature that will cause one to develop into x does not mean one is already x. Vipers in diapers theology only makes sense if you think that, because it is the nature of a caterpillar to become a butterfly, this entails that a caterpillar is already a butterfly when it is still a caterpillar. If the caterpillar dies before it can metamorphosize it never becomes a butterfly. Likewise, if a child dies before it develops responsibility, it never manifests its full human nature.

            Christ himself talks about how someone who is aware they are doing wrong will be judged worse than those who do wrong out of ignorance.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You sir are an absolue moron.

            Picrel is Tertullian Treatise On the Soul written two hundred years before Augustine and taught original sin

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >X isn't Biblical
            >But look, this other guy also said something kinda sort of like X
            Ok. This doesn't change the fact that Original Sin is not in the Bible and that a whole half of the Church never made it doctrine from the very beginning.

            The Church Fathers are good sources and have some level of authority, but they are not infallible, they often disagree. Further, what your citation shows is not Augustinian original sin, which is what became the dominant paradigm in the Latin West.

            The Eastern and Oriental Churches don't deny that many has a sinful nature or that this is related to the Fall. That IS in the Bible. They deny that this nature is somehow only related to humans and passed down genetically, and that it manifests in infants because the "seed" contains the sin.

            Ancestral Sin is very close to Original Sin but avoids certain missteps.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            This. The doctrine of original sin simply isn't expressed outright in the Bible, and there is a great deal there that militates against such a concept.

            You sir are an absolue moron.

            Picrel is Tertullian Treatise On the Soul written two hundred years before Augustine and taught original sin

            >Tertullian
            was never recognised as a saint by either the West or the East.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            He is considered a church father though

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I am talking about Pelagius, yes he didn't believe in original sin. Augustine pointed out original sin to him to argue that his theology was unbiblical. The stupid part is that people think this meant he had a more positive view of human liberty than Augustine when he was a doomer who thought that man had sufficient reason to know good from evil because of Jesus Christ and so is obligated to obey God in the imitation of Christ and if anyone doesn't he is morally culpable, and therefore most people are damned. It was popular with the aristocracy for some reason at the time, maybe because they thought if they were damned anyway they didn't need to try.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's all false anyway

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The fact that there are Christians who seek to eliminate every trace of universalism from their religion will never not be funny to me.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Augustine won, after that there was not a lot of universalism aside from orthodox and much later on some protestants.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Protestants criticized ideas like Limbo and Purgatory to make Christianity even more exclusive and less universalist than it was before. Calvinists seemed to want to maximize the amount of historical people who ended up in hell.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Sin demands punishment, ma’am.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      They seek to destroy universalism as they seek to condemn others.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        To be fair, insisting that God reserves the right to condemn *some* in the interests of justice is different from condemning specific groups of people out of self-righteousness. Jesus did this.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I think the idea of universalism solves alot of the problems of Christianity besides something like birth defects.

          Where do still born babies or unbaptized babies go? Directly to Heaven because they have no sins to rehalibate their souls. in purgatory.

          Where to evil Christians go? Purgatory to rehalibate their souls. before going to heaven.

          Where to good non-Christians go? Purgatory to rehalibate their souls.

          Where to bad non-Christians go? Purgatory to rehalibate their souls.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If God knows the future why would he need the purgatory you're proposing

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Probably wants you to own those sins like hair on your chest or something. Those who dump bleach on food so the needy can't get food out of a dumpster are probably made to do soup kitchen duty for a few centuries.

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    test

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    test

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Ultimately it's up to God to decide, not me.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Regardless of whether he was right or wrong, I find it absolutely hilarious that this random Celt just showed up in Rome and immediately began trolling the church with his own version of Christianity

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/fNe1etd.jpg

      >ah yes... actually all babies do go to heaven if they die
      What caused so many pastors and churches to embrace this horrific Pelagian belief?

      Celts know deep in their bones that life is good and God is life so God is good.

      They also know that all this talk of eternal damnation is just Oriental and Germanic anti-life gnostic anxiety projecting again

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    We don't know what happens after we die. Unborn babies may have the chance to develop elsewhere. It's clear they don't certainly go to heaven but that's about it. Someone who has sinned but dies before they can Confess or access Last Rites is considered to have gone to Heaven, this is basically the case with unborn babies.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >nooo you have to believe this is the harshest world imaginable because if it comforts you at all then it's not the TRUE faith! nooo!!!!

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