>creates someone knowing they will go to hell. >this is somehow not predetermined

>creates someone knowing they will go to hell
>this is somehow not predetermined

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God isn't real and neither is hell, so there is no predetermination. Hope this cleared up your confusion.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    That’s not true though, God limits his power by allowing humans to have free will. The world is like a sandbox video game where what is happening is not determined by the game’s creator as opposed to a video game with set pieces that play out how the creator intended

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      parroting meaningless bullshit equals cope
      >That’s not true though, God limits his power by allowing humans to have free will.
      why?
      >The world is like a sandbox video game where what is happening is not determined by the game’s creator as opposed to a video game with set pieces that play out how the creator intended
      there are multiple places in the bible where it is claimed that gawd knows everything in advance. in what sense could those things happen differently? A: they could not.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Okay, but most Christians disagree with this conception and believe God has perfect and total knowledge of all facts before, during, and after the creation event. They aren't willing to believe God had no idea what would happen when he created. In the video game analogy he is a developer who knows every parameter by heart, the state of every bit in the machine, the code, how the PRNG works, etc. The state of the machine at every instant of runtime is known before the code is executed, because that's what "omniscient" means.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Would you want to play a game where (A) you lose and be tortured forever or (b) "win" and become a drone without any agency or will hooked to what boils down to a cosmic opium supply? Do you think putting someone else in this situation is ethical?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This. Humanity is God's greatest achievement precisely because we can act independent of his wishes. Sin would not be possible without God expressly staying his hand.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        If that was the case, Hell wouldn't exist and neither would sin. The concept of doing something against God's will being a bad thing when he supposedly loves free will(a concept completely non-existent in the Bible and made up later by copers) is completely inconsistent and nonsensical. It's literally mutually exclusive yet people cling to it like a life raft because of widespread culturally American values about freedom and self determinism.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >God's greatest achievement is that human beings can murder, do drugs, engage in prostitution, rape children and scam honest people out of their money
        >then they get punished for eternity for something God could have prevented, but chose not to

        This is exactly why I cannot stand Abrahamists

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >humanity is God's greatest achievement because we can sin
        >God hates sin though
        ???

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God hates us. He must be overthrown.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Take it easy Beelzebub.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      nice try israelite

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        israelites are the ones who wrote your holy book, genius

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I'm afraid there isn't anyone better fit for the throne

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God is beyond time, and simply observes your future free decision as you are making it.
    Next.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >god is beyond time
      Then he has no relevance or relation with reality

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >the craftsman who made the chair has nothing to do with it because he is not furniture
        Brightest atheist mind on display.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          brightest christian does not understand that outside of time equals no changes due to you in time. imagine the other christians.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Awesomely resplendent atheist mind cannot into concepts of Omnipotence and Omnipresence.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            sez you who cannot comprehend either and has to make up ad-hoc 'theology' from the corner he painted himself into.
            also, did you know that just claiming such deficiencies about your opponents do not make them true?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >sez
            ESL or moronic?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            got nothing better, eh?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Christcuck analogies about physics and reality are as infantile as their god

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Not biblical. Process theology solves this.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            in the end nothing is biblical because the bible is full of contradictions. so yes, god floated above the waters (sumerian mythology) but he also created everything. also, he is not omnipotent, but must be reassured in prayers that he is, lest it's the magic lava.
            cease your attempts to bring fringe shit into the discussion. christianity is what christians, the howling masses of warsheep, believe, not what some fringe 'thinkers' make up and pretend it's True Christianity (TM). thee stances of theologians don't matter at all, only those of religious peasants do, because they are the political problem.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >but he also created everything.
            Where does the bible say that?
            >cease your attempts to bring fringe shit into the discussion. christianity is what christians, the howling masses of warsheep, believe, not what some fringe 'thinkers' make up and pretend it's True Christianity (TM).
            Truth isn't a democracy. None of the early church fathers believed in creatio ex nihilio. Only in the engagement with neoplatonism it slowly swept into the church.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth- does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.”
            >In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
            >For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
            >All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yes he created everything but not out of nothing but out of preexistent matter.

            >No I'm talking about the actual epistemological limits of what we will ever find out
            The line between what is unknowable to you and what is "known" to you is delineated by a myth that is scanty on the details. Those who credit Genesis have no business speaking about epistemology, you have a mental illness that won't let you dispense with bad explanations.

            I'm not talking about what is unknowable to me. Do you claim we will ever be able to learn where the universe comes from?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >All things were made through him, and without him not any thing was made that was made
            This also isn't what you were arguing, you asked:
            >Where does the Bible say that
            To the statement he created everything.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >All things were made through him, and without him not any thing was made that was made
            I affirm that. But not out of nothing.
            >This also isn't what you were arguing, you asked:
            does the Bible say that
            >To the statement he created everything.
            Sure I may be shoddy in my explanations but the point stands. Process theology is biblical and solves the issue raised by OP. You don't have to care for my lay attempts at explaining it there is ample material online.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Worthless semantics. He created everything, if something existed before it's on you to provide the Bible verse that says this is the case, otherwise you have to admit the God of the Bible is misleading people on purpose by not putting this there but wasting pages on dumbass songs.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Where does the bible say that?
            john 1, for one. but it does not even make sense otherwise: there are things and rules he did not create, and there's nothing about this meta-creator in the bible?
            >Truth isn't a democracy
            no form of god-belief is true, no matter how much effort is poured into making it unverifiable and therefore unfalsifiable. the existence of christianity is a mere political problem, and in that dimension only the numbers matter.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      if the future exists in a unique way, it can ve viewed etc., then it is predetermined. that's what 'predetermined' means.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God wasn't really that powerful in his original form. He only cared about the israelites and he couldn't even protect them from other nations in the area.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >be God
    >be all-knowing and all-powerful
    >give humans free will
    >decide not to look into the future to see how each human will act

    There, I fixed this "problem". God has the ability to know what will happen in the future but decided not to use it when creating humans to ensure free will.

    It's like if you buy a book, you already have the ability to check what the ending will be, but you decide not to because it's more interesting that way.

    >but how can God be all-knowing if he doesn't know something
    Because if he couldn't stop himself from knowing something he wouldn't be all-powerful. Also Jesus was God, and Jesus had human limitations, so it's established that God can limit himself.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >God has a plan for everyone, he is all knowing
      >er.. well, actually he doesn’t have any idea what we’ll do but he still has a plan for everyone, trust me bro

      God creates you knowing whether you will end up in heaven or hell, but if he created you, skipped your "life" and filtered you straight into heaven or hell you would see him as cruel. Since he has given you your life and free will, he already knows the outcome but you now also know your own deeds and actions that brought you to your fate.

      Ah yes my own decisions, that I make, based on my inherent personality (which God gave me) and my upbringing (which God also placed me in). Remind me where free will is found again?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      If doesn't know the future then he is not all knowing. No ifs and buts about it.
      The concept of omnipotence and omniscience are nonsensical.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >There, I fixed this "problem". God has the ability to know what will happen in the future but decided not to use it when creating humans to ensure free will.
      awesome fanfiction, brother. why would he do so and how is he not responsible for the consequences?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why can't his omnipotence allow him to see the future and also create free will? Are you saying God couldn't conceive a universe where he can have his cake (omnipotence) and eat it (omniscience) too?

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God creates you knowing whether you will end up in heaven or hell, but if he created you, skipped your "life" and filtered you straight into heaven or hell you would see him as cruel. Since he has given you your life and free will, he already knows the outcome but you now also know your own deeds and actions that brought you to your fate.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's up to you to change his mind.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God is real, there is no hell, we are all one soul - God's soul - going through infinite pleasures and overcomings, trials and tribulations, misery and sufferings, all to find ourselves incarnated as the Christ, the Messiah, where we shall do no wrong in life yet die in horrid misery only to forgive the world, to forgive ourselves, and move on into the New Jerusalem.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Making someone knowing they will do something is not the same thing as ordaining that thing to happen. This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What's the difference?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Foreknowledge is not the same thing as foreordaining. Things don't happen because you know them, rather you know the things that will happen. My knowing I will draw a picture doesn't make the picture be drawn, instead I know that I will draw a picture and my will moves me towards that end. You're conflating will and knowledge when those are two different things, even at the scale of humans. Are we directed by our foreknowledge? Absolutely, so is God. But that's the point, God acts according to His foreknowledge, not His acts are the same thing as His foreknowledge.
        This is literally some brainlet tier divine simplicity argument that tries to conflate all of God's attributes as being one and the same.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Perfect foreknowledge is the same thing as foreordaining. If you know it to be a fact and you are not wrong then nothing else can ever come to be, when you are also omnipotent and created all variables AFTER knowing how they would turn out, you are absolutely 100% deciding what they will do. Like that other anon said, why do you people always pick analogies that lower the level of insight being portrayed? This is like you knowing every single atom and every single stroke the artist will make for their painting before they're even born, why they made the painting, and what it will look like in the end. You are a limited human being, not an omnipotent God, if God decides he's going to make a picture he doesn't draw, it exists exactly as he wishes it to because he would be an all knowing being that does not need to experiment with what works and what doesn't work during the process of creation.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >If you know it to be a fact and you are not wrong then nothing else can ever come to be, when you are also omnipotent and created all variables AFTER knowing how they would turn out, you are absolutely 100% deciding what they will do.
            Again, if God is willing posterior to His foreknowledge then that means what is going to happen is already known. God is not (always) forcing these things to happen because He must act in accordance with His foreknowledge. This removes any sort of free will out of God as well and instead turns Him into some impersonal background force. I don't need to bring up omnipotence because that has absolutely nothing to do with whether perfect foreknowledge has any impact what will happen. If X happens and you have foreknowledge of it, that means X happening exists logically prior to the foreknowledge. Knowledge of all variables already exist, in other words it's the actions themselves which inform God, not God informs the actions what they shall do.
            >This is like you knowing every single atom and every single stroke the artist will make for their painting before they're even born, why they made the painting, and what it will look like in the end.
            Would me knowing any of this cause the painter to do these things? No.
            >You are a limited human being, not an omnipotent God, if God decides
            Gonna stop you right there because we've now moved onto will. All you have said so far is that perfect foreknowledge is somehow predicated on foreordaining but then couldn't give a single example or argument why this is the case. Please show that having perfect foreknowledge necessitates the variables to do what you foreknew them to do.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >He must act in accordance with His foreknowledge
            so he's an impotent npc just watching unfold what he has always known will unfold? I don't really feel like having been created in his image anymore.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >If God is willing.
            If, you made that up, and according to the Bible he does not do this or want to do this, or care about free will in any way shape or form. God doesn't have to force anything when the nature of these traits means that they cannot be broken without making his insight or power less than what is stated, simultaneously turning him into a non-all-powerful-being, and a liar at the same time.
            >Would me knowing any of this cause the painter to do those things
            If you cannot be wrong, and you created the painter the answer is yes
            >Gonna stop you right there
            No you aren't, you're going to deflect, this argument is based on God's traits, and one of them is literally Omniscience which is knowledge of everything true and cannot be wrong. This is a basic argument you aren't going to pretend you don't understand, if he can ever be wrong then he isn't omniscient, full stop. If you insist on pretending to be obtuse I can only ask that you not respond to me further because I will ignore you if you do.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >This is a basic argument you aren't going to pretend you don't understand
            underestimating your opponent is a big no-no.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >God doesn't have to force anything when the nature of these traits means that they cannot be broken without making his insight or power less than what is stated, simultaneously turning him into a non-all-powerful-being, and a liar at the same time.
            Meant to say "if God's willing is posterior to His foreknowledge." Apologies for the confusion.
            God's foreknowledge is not what forces the future to happen. What He creates natures to be is in accordance with His foreknowledge, not a fulfillment of it. Again, His foreknowledge exists prior to any sort of willing, and isn't dependent on the will in order to be correct. As such, evil then has no substantive existence since its emergence is within God's foreknowledge, but is not created by God. God created man with a natural will that moves towards good (i.e. God), but the rationality is what gives us freedom from being bound by our natural will. Thus, we can employ our will in idiosyncratic ways. Take for example: speech. We can all speak and possess the faculty of speech, but we employ it in idiosyncratic ways. Going back to God's role in this, God endowed us and the angels with employment of our faculties in idiosyncratic ways. In other words, any choice I would make to choose evil and any evil inclinations I have are based on my free action to choose that evil, and not God ordaining me to have evil inclinations. As such, God is not the author of evil since He neither creates natures with evil nor does He induce evil in people.
            >If you cannot be wrong, and you created the painter the answer is yes
            This doesn't follow. Why is me knowing that I will make a painter and will know exactly how he will paint the image require me to actually do any of those things? Is my foreknowledge faulty before I will those things into be?
            >If you insist on pretending to be obtuse
            I'm saying nothing obtuse. Prove X needs to happen in order for my knowing of X to be true.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Things don't happen because you know them, rather you know the things that will happen
          For God, things happen because he created thus. Here is an analogy that seems to me a little more apposite - a computer programmer programs an artificial intelligence, and he knows exactly how it will respond to every input because he set its parameters. Can the artificial intelligence be said to have free will?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Foreknowledge is not the same thing as foreordaining.
          foreknowledge implies determinism, gawd has the movie of past, present and future. the future is not a branching tree in this moronic fairy tale but a linear sequence of events. gawd knows the entire content of the movie, always did, and yet does not change it. therefore whatever happens is to his liking.
          in before obstacles he cannot overcome.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    A matter of perspective. As images caught in time, we perceive moments in succession, one after the other. In eternity, where God dwells, all of the moments are one. Or to put it another way, there is just one eternal moment that God comprehends completely, while on Earth we are only shown "slivers" in single file, which we call "time".

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I don't get it. Who told you it is not predetermined?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Who told you it is not predetermined?
      all this gaslighting and stalling, maaaan ...

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >give you free will to choose not to go to Hell
    >this is somehow not free enough

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >creates a world with choices
      ...

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Is there a problem?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          yes, with your dishonest pretenses. you are not up to a decent discussion. pretending you don't get the problem is just trolling. go away.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I don't understand what you are saying. How is it "dishonest" to say that God gives us free will?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            how is it dishonest to pretend that this was the topic?

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >turns on a recording of a superbowl from 10 years ago he memorized
    >somehow didn't predetermine the player's moves
    what?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Do you think there is no difference between some schmuck watching a football game, and someone watching a football game who has total knowledge of the mechanics and position of every subatomic particle on the pitch before any of the players were even born, and created each player foreknowing their destiny down to the 2013 Super Bowl outcome? It's crazy how many analogies you people will draw where an ignorant spectator or a playful bumbler or some such is supposed to stand in for God, when the whole point is about the seeming contradiction between an omniscient creator and a free creation.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's because having to acknowledge what kind of fictional demon they've created and worshipped is embarrassing. It's one thing to have fallen for a financial scam, or paid for something that doesn't work, it's another to proclaim the righteousness of a spiritual belief only to realize that in any other context you would be considered one of the evil cultists in a video game sacrificing child dicks to a demon for immortality after death. They're literally all 20 seconds away from having to admit that everything they held up as supreme wisdom is just a scam to get their money and doesn't even have enough internal consistency or intelligent thought put into this scam for someone to have answered some of these questions before in their holy books.

        This is the one situation where the people tricked will never admit they spent all that time, effort, and money on completely moronic bullshit even a child could see through.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Well said. It's a good point that you can't even contrive a gullible cultist character without creating a strong resemblance to "legitimate" religion. Just a few details separate immemorial sincere faith from superstitious delusion.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The thing is, most gullible cultists in fiction believe less batshit things, and have enough proof for their bullshit to be reasonably expected to fall for Obviously-Evil-God #334556.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        no need for all that complexity. gawd watches a recording of the match for the zillionth time.

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God positively predestines people to heaven and passively lets people go to hell.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      choose at most one.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's not. You have free will to choose, God just knows which choice you will make.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      in what sense is that choice 'free' if gawd would be proven wrong if I chose anything else?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        actually, belay that. here's the real question: do christians experience the least discomfort when they paint themselves into oxymoronic corners like this? 'it's free but ...'.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        explain what do you mean

        actually, belay that. here's the real question: do christians experience the least discomfort when they paint themselves into oxymoronic corners like this? 'it's free but ...'.

        no, because there are no oxymoronic corners

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >explain what do you mean
          no. I said enough to refer to a very well expounded position here. you must know what I mean, and I think you just want me to waste time on a troll like you larping as a christian.
          >there are no oxymoronic corners
          yeah, like 'freely choosing from a single alternative' is not oxymoronic.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I see the problem here. You think that free will works like this:
        >God gives you the choice between A and B.
        >God foresees that you will choose B.
        >You decide to choose A instead, proving God was wrong.
        >This proves that God does not exist, because he didn't force you to choose B.

        In reality, it is like this:
        >God gives you the choice between A and B.
        >You freely choose A.
        >God knew you would choose A, because that is the option you will choose.
        >Both free will and predestination are maintained.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          But God ostensibly deliberately created the "you" that chose A and not a "you" - i.e., a person who would be recognized as none other than yourself by anyone you know - who would choose "B".
          There is nothing wrong with your description of what is "in reality", except it should begin with:
          >God creates the "you" which chooses A and not the "you" which chooses B
          and ends with:
          >...so long as your definition of "free will" is not, e.g., "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion" or "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention", but rather something equivalent to "the ability to do precisely what you are determined to do by your omniscient creator, exactly as computer programs do none other than what their programmer desired they should"
          ...which I consider a very idiosyncratic definition of "free will", and I hope you can see this from my perspective.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          could you, like, not make up barmy shit in my name?
          >in reality
          no. if god knew I'd choose A, then my only real alternative, regardless of what I or you or Calvin or Hobbes thinks, is A. it is either determined or there is nothing for god to know. in what sense is this choice free?

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Process theology solves this
    >tl;dr
    Creatio ex nihilio isn't biblical and neither testament affirms it
    God creates the world out of preexistent matter with it's fixed properties
    God builds the best possible world with what he got
    God has absolute persuasive power but not coercive power

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      But one of the big upshots of creation ex nihilo is it "explains" the origin of everything besides God. By presupposing some primordial matter, the number of unexplained principles is doubled. What gave God the clay Adam was molded out of, and should worship it too?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This is beyond the realm of possible knowledge. The bible says god's spirit was above the water and split it.
        Doesn't say he made it.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          You don't have to persuade me that creation ex nihilo is not in view in Genesis.
          As far as I'm concerned, you Christians claim far too many things are unknowable, ineffable, or mysteries to credit on any subject. For the life of me I don't understand how your theologians "raise their voice on the greatest problems", to paraphrase Nietzsche, and then turn around and admit total ignorance about notions we only know from israeli and Christian speculations in the first place, and none of you even blink.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >As far as I'm concerned, you Christians claim far too many things are unknowable, ineffable, or mysteries to credit on any subject.
            No I'm talking about the actual epistemological limits of what we will ever find out. Atheists don't claim to ever find out where the universe comes from either. Dr. Sean Carroll wrote a great essay on that.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >No I'm talking about the actual epistemological limits of what we will ever find out
            The line between what is unknowable to you and what is "known" to you is delineated by a myth that is scanty on the details. Those who credit Genesis have no business speaking about epistemology, you have a mental illness that won't let you dispense with bad explanations.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            nah, first they preach about how you are stupid and shit for not getting it, then they break and acknowledge that the topic is not amenable to logic. looks for all the world like they are in it for the chance to play big guru and insult others.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I have done neither. Process philosophy is complex but there is a plethora of work to explain it. I'm not a trained logician or philosopher either.
            If I were to call you stupid for anything it would be for dismissing things out of hand.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Is it true then that the state of the cosmos was once God and the primordial waters or matter of creation? If so, why should I not judge creation as a significant decrease in total cosmic goodness, since there is now tremendous suffering and violence where once there was only God's perfection and some inexplicable and presumably value neutral matter?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      so, a demiurge of limited power?
      we are so fricked.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You are. Unless you accept his son Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Matthew 5:19
    >"Trivialize even the smallest item in God's Law and you will only have trivialized yourself. But take it seriously, show the way for others, and you will find honor in the kingdom. (MSB)

    The fact that everyone is given 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to NOT frick up, but then still find time to frick up, make excuses about it, and then blame it God, only means you're a special type idiot. Even toddlers grow up eventually.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >be born with free will
    >actually you were born with a sociopathy gene and are 10000% more likely to commit a horrible atrocity compared to a normal person
    >it's okay because christians didn't understood genetics when they were spreading the NT (and they still don't)

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