Determinism is cope

If determinism is true then personal responsibility is non-existent because people cannot make conscious decisions nor actively choose to make different decisions, and so all facets of human society involving correction wouldn't exist in a deterministic reality devoid of free will. Anger would not exist in response to human behavior because there would be no concept of shortcomings or wrongdoing since people would be incapable of behaving differently according to their own agency.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Dogs don’t have free will but we still punish them. How does free will make punishment reasonable? If everyone has free will, then there’s no reason to punish anyone, since we shouldnt expect them to be bad in the future. It’s because people are determined by their natures (which are influenced by experiences) that we punish them, because we want to correct their behavior, and prevent bad behavior in the first place.

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >he suddenly believes that i have the capacity to choose not to
    that's not what determinism is at all, god simply knows the future, you still have 100% free will

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This is right.

      Are you morons really trying to force a debate on an obvious false dichotomy.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      So, like, God makes a true prophecy and tells me I will have cereal for breakfast tomorrow
      Tomorrow comes, I simply use my free will to choose to eat toast
      ....
      Is that how it works?

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    > Anger would not exist in response to human behavior because there would be no concept of shortcomings or wrongdoing since people would be incapable of behaving differently according to their own agency.
    except for the fact that we are predetermined to be angry with them

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Again this is cope. If you genuinely believed that the person was incapable of change you would feel no anger towards them. The very fact of the existence of anger in response to misconduct implies the reality that people may choose to behave differently. Next you'll say free will is predetermined as well which is just another way of saying that determinism is bullshit without admitting to such.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >you're only allowed to get angry at things if they "chose" and "had full control" to wrong you!!!

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        anger is instinctual. That’s like saying “if you genuinely believed fapping were bad for you then you wouldn’t get a boner when you see big breasts on the screen”

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          People get angry at misconduct and perceived slights and is a natural emotional response in human relationships. You're not even on a level as to where you comprehend the own nature of how your operate.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    You're as "personally responsible" for what you do as a bear in the wild is. Doesn't mean I'm gonna let you do whatever you want.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >NOOOO YOU SHOULD JUST LET THE BEAR KILL YOUUUUUU
      lol
      lmao

      Let’s laugh at the morons haha

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Stupid argument. Societies coerce and enforce rules to make things work and free will is simply a useful illusion that is entertained to this end. Anarchy is less preferable than order. There is nothing else to discuss.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Societies are comprised of people, human beings who socialize with one another. You act as if societies are an other, external entity beyond humanity. People adopt behavior in their societies because that is how the people around them behave. If determinism was accurate to the nature of human will then there would be no expectation of correction or misbehavior.
      >anarchy and order
      Not relevant to metaphysics, you seem to be a little confused.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Even animal species have corrective behaviors lol. I guess you think every animal has free will. If I can make you admit that, then I’ll be happy

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Cool but dogs and cats and camels do have free will and the fact you believe otherwise is delusion. A cat can choose whether or not to scratch you, a rock can't.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Cool, so you admit that you are not le special. And how exactly do you think free will works, again? Souls or something? But then you must admit that every animal has a soul. Now tell me, why do you eat animals, if they have souls?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Cool, so you admit that you are not le special
            You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't relevant to the discussion. Not once did I claim I was "special", what I have claimed is that determinism is inaccurate to how reality functions.
            >And how exactly do you think free will works, again?
            That human will has agency? It's not difficult to comprehend.
            >Souls or something?
            >But then you must admit that every animal has a soul.
            So if we're looking at souls as the same as consciousness, a dog has much less consciousness than a human but it still has it and also has much more than an ant, which has more than a plant in turn. Consciousness is a spectrum.
            >Now tell me, why do you eat animals, if they have souls?
            Again with the assumptions. Not once did I ever claim to consume animals nor is the consumptions of animal flesh relevant to the discussion of human will. You're really grasping at straws to find any leg up after realizing determinism is false.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >desires exist therefore le free will!
            explain why organisms can’t have multiple, sometimes conflicting desires in a deterministic world. I know this is hard for you but actually try to imagine it. A world with strict laws of physics and chemistry and causality and determinism, and animals evolve to have certain desires in certain scenarios, but sometimes they have multiple desires because scenarios are not always so simple. And they simply do whatever their strongest desire is. How exactly is this impossible in a deterministic world?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Uh yeah

          >Neuroscientists such as Björn Brembs and Christof Koch believe thermodynamically stochastic processes in the brain are the basis of free will, and that even very simple organisms such as flies have a form of free will.[36]

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >randomness = free will
            yawn

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >stochastic processes in the brain are the basis of free will
            This... doesn't sound very plausible to put it lightly

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        An external entity beyond humanity is precisely what a society is. It is an emergent metaphenomenon, a sum greater than its parts. Which is why it acts out of its own volition. Humans are mere pawns when you look at the big picture.

        Anyway determinism is true because on a neurological level there is no stage when you can take control, the decision has been made even before you have been made aware of it. You receive information which you interpret as being of your own volition hence the illusion of freedom. You can turn this fact around however you want, there is no way out of this

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >An external entity beyond humanity is precisely what a society is. It is an emergent metaphenomenon, a sum greater than its parts. Which is why it acts out of its own volition. Humans are mere pawns when you look at the big picture.
          This is just cope though. You fundamentally can choose to not participate in society or even move countries that have different cultures and customs. You are not forced nor beholden to interact with society, you may be born in proximity to it but everyone can choose to leave.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >there would be no expectation of correction or misbehavior.
        a train is about to run you over, its course can not be altered. Do you have to have free will to choose to get out of the way? Do you have to have free will to create rules after this incident to prevent it from happening again? Do you have to believe the train has free will in order to be angry at it?

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >if free will is fake why should you retaliate against what other people do to you? t-t-they can't help it! they're just doing what their brain chemistry and antecedent conditions made them do.

    Same reason Captain Ahab wanted revenge on Moby Dick. Next?

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This might be above your simple little mind but you do realize indeterminacy doesn't magically give you "free will" right cuck?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >This might be above your simple little mind but you do realize indeterminacy doesn't magically give you "free will" right cuck?

      God magically gives me free will. if you disagree you're an atheist cuck.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        if anything it's atheists and their "god cant tell me what to do" "i make my own destiny" people who tend to believe in free will.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Your premises hinge on the idea that every single human knows about determinism and is not only fully bought into the philosophy but also entirely rational and prescient about the circumstances of all agents involved in moral disputes. Determinism doesn't remove the existence of anger because people can be predisposed towards being angry at bad behavior and are most certainly culturally influenced to be so; concepts like shortcomings and wrongdoing would also exist. Even if people have an understanding that someone can have a genetic predisposition towards being a violent psychopath that doesn't mean they just shrug it off when said person bashes an infant against some rocks, they acknowledge the action as wrong even if they are hardcore determinists and understand that the perpetrator in question would inevitably lash out given the opportunity/correct combination of circumstances.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Everything people do can be physically explained. Free will is not possible in a strictly physical, causal, and antecedent realm. Which is why you need to invoke magical non-physical forces. Anyone who wants to invoke the "non-physical" is just a toxic male who wants to stroke their ego and attribute something where it doesn't belong. It's in their financial and social interest to pretend an imaginary non-physical entity is responsible. An entity that all people supposedly have equal access to if "we try hard enough".

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Does a dice land on a random side or not?
    It's literally that simple.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      It does not, but the universe is too complex for accurate prediction to be possible. So we have determinism but with the illusion of randomness.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I got a better question.
    If determinism isn't true then why can we predict the motion of the planets and the products of chemical reactions and why do companies spend trillions of dollars analyzing user data to make predictions about their habits as a consumer?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Because as things become larger they become easier to predict, sort of like the law of large numbers

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Everyone go read NCFOM or watch NCFOM.
    Here´s the book.
    https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=46FA1DF04C8D07F182823478B5EC8727

    It´s literally about this really,i think torrent and netflix have the movie,and book just libgen.
    Read to the end.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I have. It doesn't factor into it. But it was already determined by your media obsessed culture that molded your speck of a mind that you would point at something some old boomer wrote and some idiot Hollywood directors adapted as your belief instead of forming your own.

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Of course we don't have free will. Ask yourself why do some people turn out good, and why do other people turn out bad?

    It's either because they were raised a certain way, or due to genetics. Both of which we have no control over. You don't get to control who raises you, and even if you did you'd be so young you would lack the cognition to make a meaningful decision anyways.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >It's either because they were raised a certain way, or due to genetics
      I never understood why this is the go to causal explanation I always hear for behavior.
      If determinism is true, it's nothing special about genetics or how someone was raised,
      The explanation is going to be -> prior physical states, all the way down
      If someone is a criminal, it is because of prior physical states
      if someone shits their bed, prior physical states
      If someone cheats on the exam, prior physical states

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    No because we're pre-determined to punish you stupid

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >determinism is wrong because i don't like the implications of it

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      it's fine, OP had no choice except to make that post.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    You as a Christian still live your life as if you can make your own choices, even if God knows the future and never knows wrong
    it's the same thing with determinism, the future hasn't happened yet, and you don't know what will happen

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >If determinism is true then personal responsibility is non-existent because people cannot make conscious decisions nor actively choose to make different decisions
    Correct
    >and so all facets of human society involving correction wouldn't exist. Anger would not exist in response to human behavior because there would be no concept of shortcomings or wrongdoing since people would be incapable of behaving differently according to their own agency.
    Dumb logical jump right there, we are utilitarian beings not perfectly moralistic ones, thus we punish members of society to maintain it going even when such punishments would technically be unfair.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Please explain how punishment makes sense _with_ free will

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Free will is an undefinable concept (except for coping comp*tibilists), but if such a thing actually existed -everyone would technically be responsible for their actions thus be deserving of punishment when commiting crimes.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          But what exactly is the point of punishment? What does it mean to deserve punishment?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            *Physically stop you from doing further harm
            *Repay the damage you already committed
            *Change your perspective so that you can be freed after repaying the damage without risk of you doing it all over again
            Societies also uses it for the old guiltless schadenfreude, but that's beyond the point.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Punishment literally only make sense in a situation where the entity being punished had a degree of free will, otherwise it is literally meaningless

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I don’t think it makes sense because if someone has free will and murders someone, there’s no reason to expect them to use their free will to murder again in the future. That would imply that their nature predetermines them to murder

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Common sense would dictate a rabid dog will bite again, a murderer will kill again. The punishment is not meaningless, it's to stop them from engaging in the behavior again.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          People changing their actions in a predictable way in order to avoid punishment and society adopting these norms is not evidence for free will, brainlet.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          People changing their actions in a predictable way in order to avoid punishment and society adopting these norms is not evidence for free will, brainlet.

          in a moral sense I can see where you're going.
          1. maybe you're right and hate and love etc are all irrational delusions, like Buddhism says
          2. maybe your moral standard that you shouldn't hate or punish things with no free will is wrong or irrelevant.

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    All of it is cope and anti-human. There are some world views; Either we have free will and are in a Godless universe by that matter of speaking nothing matters, just ultimate randomness on a mudball orbiting a star or we are determined and live in a Godless universe which then all of us are windup dolls in a mudball in space or we have free will in a universe with God in it by that means we're free to do as we please but we end up in one place determined not truly by our own actions but by what some higher power thinks of them or we are determined in a universe with God in it and by that we're just playing out a script by him. All of these worldviews hold humanity in utter contempt.

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    people choose but they don't choose how they choose. Part of that process which you ultimately don't have access to is how other people behave. So yes it is rational to behave as if you can influence people's decisions. Of course, you ultimately don't have a choice to behave the way you do in reaction to other people.

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    One problem with this debate is this idea of reason. There's not really sufficient evidence to suggest man is a rational animal, it's more of a fun thought experiment. Do you really think gangbangers or drug addicts deeply ponder all these meanings and questions, come to a rational conclusion, and then engage in their behavior? Of course not. Most people don't even have an inner monologue. While they can change certain attributes about themselves with concerted effort, they are still not very cognizant and self-aware for the most part. I mean hell, most of life's actions are mundane and done thoughtlessly. Free will exists in a vacuum of academic fart huffing. It seems like a meaningless debate at this point, it's asking the wrong question. The real question is how much of our actions are pre-determined or of our own choice?

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    how many times are you going to make this thread?

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    forget the highly unlikely, once you witness the impossible, you will never question agency again

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >this and this and that can't exist in determinism
    assertions without proof

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    If human activity is determined by pre-existing circumstances, then Jesse Pinkman begging for his life would itself be a factor among a set of determining factors.

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