>developers in the 90s and early 2000s

>developers in the 90s and early 2000s
build our own tech from scratch? no problem!
>developers after 2010
build our own tech from scratch? but this framework/engine/platform makes everything easier. what do you mean it runs like shit? who still uses 4gb of ram in 2024? frick off

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I was on your side until that 4gb bullshit. have a nice day.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      My laptop has 4 GB RAM

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Sorry to tell you this but the world has moved on, no one gives a shit about your toaster.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Time to upgrade

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Any application that assumes it's the only application that will run on a machine is moronic.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      bloatmaxxer detected

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    it's cheaper to use a framework/engine/platform so the owner can pocket more money

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      damn... you'd think dev studios were a business or something with how much they care about profits

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Nah I don't think that's it

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        If they care so much about money why do they keep making games I don’t want to buy? Huh?!

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    who are you quoting

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      his headcanon- him and his discord buddies argue more about choice of language than actually working on anything to be considered developers.

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    They did still use frameworks and libraries though, often, these would be licensed from other companies at a heavy cost, or they would be provided by IBM, Microsoft or Apple as part of their Operating Systems. Sure, plenty of companies had to roll their own stack, especially if they were making their own hardware, but it wasn't nearly as common as millenials and zoomers today believe. The problem space was so much different back then. The scale of problems we tackle now, and the complexity of the software we need to do it with, has dramatically increased.

    Security, scalability, performance, data storage, architecture, systems, the entire gammut is signficantly more complex now. Hand-rolling your entire stack would cost an inordinate amount of money, and take decades to develop. Are you going to write your own server software? Your own protocol? Your own virtual machine? Build your own content delivery network? Develop internal frameworks which are a necessity for consistency and maintainability in large teams? How are you going to then scale all of this? Are you going to spend the years of time required to actually refine all of this technology after it goes live so you can handle all the cases you didn't expect? Where are you going to get the money to pay all of the developers you need to do all of this?

    This is why we use services, this is why we use frameworks and libraries, because what we do is no longer just shoving some desktop application onto a CD and selling it from a retail store, where it exists inside the vacuum of a desktop computer. It was through the effort of developers using GNU/Linux and BSD that this kind of ecosystem blossomed and we were able to share code as we do now. There's really nothing wrong with what we do, either. Smart people, people that are a class above the rest with an autistic penchant for their craft, will still reinvent the wheel, and we'll use their wheel, because it's probably a better wheel than most people will create.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The scale of problems we tackle now, and the complexity of the software we need to do it with, has dramatically increased.
      Yet the price of a software developer's labor is crashing before our eyes. Isn't that quacking crazy?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They aren't. Covid boom increased salaries disproportionately to what they were rising at in the years before that, developer wages have stayed relatively the same compared to pre-covid. There are more junior and entry level positions available now, and that has disproportionately lowered the average. Senior developers salaries haven't gone down.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The frameworks are trash, and the current crop of programmers couldn't do BASIC on a Commodore if their life depended on it. If it's not "in the library" it may as well not exist, and they can't troubleshoot for shit when their framework does something stupid.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        All of these accusations are false. It's very clear you've never worked on a large project, people have to tackle performance hot spots and dive into frameworks to do it all of the time, usually this is something a senior developer does, not juniors out of bootcamp. Nearly any language today is much more complex than BASIC, if you actually sat people down in front of a C64 they could pick up BASIC. It's not hard, you're not special for understanding it. Every single time I hear someone spout some inane bullshit like this, with no relevance or understanding of modern stacks, it's always some ancient boomer or totally uneducated midwit who has never worked professionally.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      how can ypu feel good with yourself after writing such a big post built upon lies? the complications of now are the same as 40 years ago, you are even allowed MUCH better hardware.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >the complications of now are the same as 40 years ago
        zoomzoom

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >built upon lies
        Yeah bro everyone used infinitely scaling microservices 40 years ago. You're literally so fricking ignorant that you have no concept of what a modern stack looks like. Go to school or get a job, NEET.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >you dont know this stupid abstraction i pulled out of my ass so what you say doesnt matter
          lol

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >abstraction
            moron

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you are the moron for not liking pointless overcomplecations
            lol

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Scalability is not an "overcomplecation" midwit, you use a monolithic architecture to serve up the kind of services common today and you'll run into the same problems Paypal, Netflix, Google, Microsoft and countless others have where their entire service can be disrupted. Therein really lies the evidence, you have no idea what you're talking about, you don't even know what a microservice is or even something basic like why we need CDNs. You're unironically at the peak of Mt. Stupid right now.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You don't even know that 99.99% uptime services at huge scales were already a thing 40 years ago?
            How moronic are you?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >99.99% uptime services 40 years ago
            Oh really? Grab me a document from the 80s where the service provider claims "99.99% uptime" using a monolithic architecture, then prove that it was actually anywhere close to that. Microservice architectures solve a fundamental problem with monolithic architectures, not that you would know that because you don't even know what the difference is.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            These architectures aren't just about uptime either, they're about cost, it's dramatically less expensive and less demanding on physical infrastructure to use microservice architecture.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    dream blunt rotation:
    >happy mask merchant
    >milo
    >the windmill guy

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Why can't you build a tank by hand? When I started I was knapping my own spearheads! God damn kids these days.
    Technology advances and the skill floor rises with it, not everyone was lucky enough to get carried by joining at the ground floor.
    Go ahead, go and build a framework from scratch that out performs the shit we have, real fricking easy apparently.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      please stop ser, you will scare the nouveau team

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Not really the case, I think from the PS1 and N64 onwards official SDKs and dev platforms were provided, which did a lot of the grunt work. I know the PS1 had a fairly substantial SDK.

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    But there are more people building libraries now than ever before?

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >redoing some shit somebody already made because you're bad at researching/learning
    This is the mentality of tinkerers. Innovators build on the existing to solve new problems.
    You will never amount to anything.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      the only way to learn is to tinker, there is no way around it. You CAN'T gain an understanding of data structures without writing some kind of parser, you CAN'T gain a deep understanding of graphics without writing an engine, it is just how things are and guess what? 100, no really 80 years of time are WAY more than enough to write something revolutionary not once, not twice but more than 3 different times.

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Tokiosplif builds a game from scratch hes been working on it for a while and still he has something i can make in unreal engine in half a day, its a waste of time

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Guess what players dont give a shit if your game is made from scratch or uses unreal engine
      Even outside of games, does anyone complain about FastAPI being built on starlet? Nope, people generally accept reliable dependencies and sometimes even get some confidence from that, ive heard before “oh its just a wrapper for x, so your basically using the *insert known reliable program*”

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      he is a much better programmer than you because of it.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Wow. Some homosexual can actually still write games in machine code to hyper optimize the game while sacrificing his entire life on it. And another guy who spends half a year can do the same shit with the price of a little performance.
        Most optimization problems are occuring in AAA games. This isnt because they use any frameworks, its because they rely on online updates to fix it, but never do it because they are lazy, or their publishers dont allow it

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          You see in the past game devs were generous enough to open source their engines and that's the real reason why games were so much better before the 10s.
          Now you either have to cuck your shit with a new engine to avoid license infringement.
          Or treat the engine like a black box and end up with bugs you never foresaw ruining your vision.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Black person he didnt just write a game, if he did it from scratch to get those graphics he wrote an entire graphics engine with just the drivers and maybe not even those, fricking please. His game is looking pretty good and he is definitely below 39 years old so you are just a seething fricking homosexual.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Im not saying he is a moron or stupid. He is a smart guy. Im just saying that if he puts the same effort into writing a game in unreal or godot, he can do it faster and better. So writing games from like that these days is a hobby, but not practical.
            And he didnt do it from complete scratch. He did it using opengl calls. And PhysX physics engine. And im betting he probably used a windowing library like sdl and glfw

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            damn, he is completely moronic Jesus Christ, i dont care how good his concentration is and how fast he processes information, he is moronic

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Shut your stussy ass up. Peope these days don't know how to optimize their games properly. You know that in the 80s people were working with only kilobytes of ram and managed to make games run it that. DOOM can run literally everywhere. Where can we run your generation of games like CYBERPUNK, or last of us, or any other fricking """modern""" game? Even 4090s are struggling with these fricking games.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Cyberpunk is getting better.
            The thing is, it has a growing mod community so it could get pretty optimised over time.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >people dont know how to optimize
            back then games had fricking sprites in files, not even using rendering, they would just liad those sprites from disk on the fly, similar to what insanely bloated monstrosities of code do today with levels.
            3D changed gaming, each scene for a 3d game running on 1920x1080 pixels is sp much ram that you are required to run in kernel mode on pretty much every system ever. You just dont know what you are talking about and should shut up instead of embarassing yourself.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    building something from scratch doesn't automatically mean it will be better
    just look at stardew valley, i played that on my core2duo laptop and it ran at 15fps and used 2GB of ram for something that has no more graphics than what a nintendo ds can run

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Bollocks, if you have the competence to build something from scratch I guarantee you will design a game better than any of the hacks that call themselves video game designers.
      1. You are probably more intelligent than those hacks.
      2. You know the limits of the engine you are using in detail and so can limit the design of the game within those limitations more effectively. You're less likely to frick around with shit that you know you cannot do or shit that does not have enough payoff to render the effort worth it.

      This is why video games suck nowadays. Often designers are dumb and also don't know the limitations of the engine to manage time effectively. So they dick around with useless meaningless junk instead of the base of the game.

      Although that said, this is not taking into account peripheral story telling like Cyberpunk does. If that's the core of the game then you do need to worry about the tiny details there.
      But they made their engine, so they knew what needed to be done. Though they clearly fricked up the time management kek.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        stardew valley is a good game, but an efficient engine it has not

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >and the game is still 20x worse than the one made from scratch
    It's oh so tiresome.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Once again, intellectual property is the reason why games suck nowadays.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >build our own tech from scratch? no problem!
    more like "sure, but it'll take years" (we can do the same thing in weeks now)
    >but this framework/engine/platform makes everything easier. what do you mean it runs like shit?
    it doesn't. Not everything is electronjs and webshit bloat. Building from scratch often results in worse performance unless you have the smarts and the manpower.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      and before you go "b-but muh slow bloated vidya gaems!" that has nothing to do with building from scratch. Many gamedevs are either incompetent morons, or forced to make moronic decisions by management.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I agree, builds from scratch and builds from established engines BOTH suck.
      That's why building a fork of a leaked source of an established engine is the best option. :^)

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    SEXOOOOOOO

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/68548-full-list-of-doom-clonessimilar-games/
    meanwhile, OP is a gigantic moron AS USUAL

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >1280x584

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    FRICK OFF WITH YOUR VIDIYA SHIT
    YOU HAVE LIKE FIVE OTHER BOARDS

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Programmers were so good in the 90s they could literally manufacture hardware components to work with the software to give us 3D gaming on systems like the SNES that really couldn't do 3D without these ROM cartridge modifications.

    But seriously, how fricking cool was this?
    >game comes with it's own computer architecture
    That's insanity.
    It's one thing to build an engine... but an entire computer architecture? Insane.
    Yet it happened.

    Man looking back, ROM carts were way fricking cooler than people thought. I used to just think they were an older form of CDs. I was very very wrong. These things were the equivalent of installing a 2nd cpu or gpu or whatever on your machine.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Eventually many of the specialized chips you found on cartridges wound up on desktop boards. Specialized computing units being integrated into general or graphics processors solved the problems we had back then, so building your own isn't a necessity anymore. The technical feats back then were certainly great, but the units themselves were also much simpler in comparison to basically any processor we have today. Hell, FLOP wasn't even a thing back then, and if you did need it, it was going to be REALLY slow.

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Counterpoint: Minecraft.

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I sometimes really don't get it. I was fricking around with guides from learnopengl.com because i wanted to learn how this "low level" stuff worked. Plus i want to make a game without an off the shell game engine.

    When i showed it to a friend of mine he told me "who cares", "just use the graphical IDEs with menus", "stop gatekeeping software dev".

    when talking about these subjects to him especially my issues with the large amount of complexity just for a single webpage he keeps repeating "stop gatekeeping software dev".

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >off the shell
      off the shelf

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      your friend seems like a lazy frick trying to keep you from being better than him.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        i don't need to try hard for that we have generally different skillsets.
        He has his own things I have my own things.
        He also says that phrase about artwork.
        Since I draw and get annoyed by specific artwork issues in my manga and anime like sidemouth.
        Not that I am good at that but sometimes I do get annoyed when artists don't take the time to do some things correctly.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          sounds like a fricking npc

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nah he's opinionated.
            NPCs don't have opinions.
            His friend at least has an opinion.

            Though for that opinion he must be sacrificed to the blood God.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      get a better friend

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Your friend must die anon.
      It's the only way.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >stop gatekeeping software dev

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I agree, destroy intellectual property before it kills humanity.

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    better profit margins with just renting out tech

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The sheer complexity, functionality and breadth of software/hardware has fricking exploded you dumb nocoder gay. In the 90s your VGA output was so simple a toddler with BASIC could do it. But now we have to support HDMI 2.1 8k resolution manchildren with 2000 dollar graphic cards where everything has to be flawlessly supported without any stretching or tearing as otherwise they'll come crying here about muh competency crisis while they jerk of to 4k sissy porn streamed without a hitch to their mobile phone.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >BASIC
      Oh man I tried that shit recently.
      I thought VBA was bad... I take it back. VBA is salvageable.
      BASIC is just... pain.

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    But then devs don't get paid to update frameworks etc

    It's like 60% of the maintenance work to just replace deprecated code from react.

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