Do/did christians actually believe that those born before Christ are stuck in spiritual limbo?

Do/did christians actually believe that those born before Christ are stuck in spiritual limbo?

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Everyone is born a sinner and everyone commits sins
    The penalty for sin is damnation
    Why would they be in limbo?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Don't know. Virgil isn't in hell, yet he isn't allowed to see heaven either. Figured that this would mean he is in limbo.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Feels bad man

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >In so far as Dante's great poem was a product of his time, to us it seems almost repulsive; but it was simply through the realism wherewith it painted the superstitious fancies of the Middle Ages, that it roused the notice of the contemporary world. Emancipated from the fancies of that world, and yet attracted by the matchless power of their portrayal, we feel a wellnigh painful wrench at having to overcome it before the lofty spirit of the poet can freely act upon us as a world-judge of the purest ideality,—an effect as to which it is most uncertain that even posterity has always rightly grasped it. Wherefore Dante appears to us a giant condemned by the influences of his time to awe-compelling solitude.

    >Perhaps the poetic power bestowed on Dante was the greatest e'er within the reach of mortal; yet in his stupendous poem it is only where he can hold the visionary world aloof from dogma, that his true creative force is shewn, whereas he always handles the dogmatic concepts according to the Church's principle of literal credence; and thus these latter never leave that lowering artificiality to which we have already alluded, confronting us with horror, nay, absurdity, from the mouth of so great a poet.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What the hell was Wagner's problem with Catholics, anyway?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It may be difficult to understand now, but the battle between Protestantism and Catholicism looked very different in the 19th century. There was a major upswing of Protestant reactionaryism. Luther had people like Schopenhauer and Goethe praising him, while the Pope had a stuffed figure made in the shape of his kneeling lower half, so he could stand at a lower level inside the figure without kneeling, because his knees hurt to kneel. The Corpus Christi blessing turned into a sideshow of illusion. Protestantism was becoming more mystical/philosophical, while Rome was becoming more artificial and indifferent to larger concerns. In short, Catholicism had completely lost touch with the European soul.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >wellnigh
      Lol your quote can't even spell 'welling' right; why should I bother reading it?

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There is a Byzantine epigram that asks Jesus to forgive Plato because he didn't know.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Reading that made me want to cry and laugh

      • 1 week ago
        Anonymous

        εἴπερ τινός βούλοιο τῶν ἀλλοτρίων
        τῆς σῆς ἀπειλῆς ἐξελέσθαι, Χριστέ μου,
        Πλάτωνα καί Πλούταρχον ἐξέλοιό μοι,
        ἄμφω γάρ εἰσι καί λόγον καί τόν τρόπον
        τοῖς σοῖς νόμοις ἔγγιστα προσπεφυκότες,
        εἰ δ’ ἠγνόησαν ὡς Θεός εἶ τῶν ὅλων,
        ἐνταῦθα τῆς σῆς χρηστότητος δεῖ μόνον
        δι’ ἥν ἅπαντας δωρεάν σῲζειν θέλεις

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, and they also believe that Europe was on the level of sub saharan africa before jesus ack'd and blacked himself. It's a desert-peasant supremacist religion that tolerates nothing but abrahamism.

    Don't feel like worshiping this poison? Too bad! You're now sentenced to 900000-trillion-bajillion years in the torture dimension! How inspiring.

    The real hell was kneeling to this puke for over a thousand years.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >religion has harsh consequences which seem unfair to a completely different worldview
      Wow who would have thought! One could just as easily say Greek paganism wasn't inspiring because Zeus would punish you (on a far more arbitrary level than Jesus) for disrespecting him. It's the fundamental nature of religion, and these moral criticisms don't arise because it belongs to a united people, a people who all subscribe to it and hence don't have to believe their brother is going to go to hell because he is pious just as you are. But in modern society everyone can believe anything they want, the unity is shattered, and midwits like yourself think you can morally judge religion on that basis.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Greek mythology doesn’t go around presenting Zeus as this benevolent, loving being. He’s not some moral paragon above and incomprehensible to mortals, he’s a flawed and human in many ways.

        That’s the difference you fricking moron. Zeus kills you because he gets pissed off when you disrespect him, same as anyone. YHWH tortures you forever because it’s le plan and actually it’s le good or something.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Once again, major differences in religious and cultural outlook here which you sad attempt at a meme fails to recognise. The Christian God sends you to hell for entirely logical reasons within the moral and metaphysical outlook of Christianity. And it's not like Christianity is so black and white as your low iq mind presents it; it's not just about 'you get tortured for eternity if you do bad thing', it has been recognised to possess a very different significance by countless great minds of our civilisation. In the same way that it's not so black and white for Greek paganism as 'Zeus does whatever he wants'. One finds the belief that Zeus' actions are JUST everywhere in antiquity, from Sophocles to Plato, and probably among most priests.

          But whether or not you really are intelligent enough to wrap your head around historical religions and myth, it's beside the point. Your understanding of god is as an arbitrary despot. There's very little difference between a god arbitrarily demanding you to worship him and a god arbitrarily demanding you to worship him but with his own affirmation that it's the JUST thing to do. And, once again, we'll ignore the fact that Zeus was worshipped as JUST. It's so negligible to differentiate the value of religions on this basis, it brings into relief your real motivations, that you don't give two shits about the reality of religious beliefs, you just have an irrational hatred for Christianity.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >NOO THATS ACTUALLY LE GOOD YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND NOW IM GOING TO INSULT YOU AND PRETEND LIKE YOU JUST DONT LE GET LE MYSTERIOUS PLAN
            As if on cue.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That's not what I said. I said, yes, initially, 1. you don't understand Christianity, but also 2. you don't understand your own criticism. There's no special criticism of Christianity if both it and every other religion, in your opinion, has an abusive god of arbitrary judgements. It's just you whining and complaining about Christianity being extra mean about it or something. It's pathetic. And I would like to state again that I think your judgement about the gods of religion, pagan or otherwise, is fundamentally wrong. There is a beautiful soul to all of these religions, that YOU cannot see with the r/atheism goggles on.

          • 1 week ago
            Anonymous

            Because the ancient Greeks didn’t go around pretending that their gods were incapable of evil you fricking dipshit.

          • 1 week ago
            Anonymous

            Once again, I repeat, many of them did. But even if they didn't, as you suppose, that's a weak criticism of Christianity, since it only boils down to 'Christianity is being mean to me'; a weird thing to have a problem about when you have no problem with the idea of a tyrannical god itself.

          • 1 week ago
            Anonymous

            Greek mythology doesn’t go around presenting Zeus as this benevolent, loving being. He’s not some moral paragon above and incomprehensible to mortals, he’s a flawed and human in many ways.

            That’s the difference you fricking moron. Zeus kills you because he gets pissed off when you disrespect him, same as anyone. YHWH tortures you forever because it’s le plan and actually it’s le good or something.

            Yes, and they also believe that Europe was on the level of sub saharan africa before jesus ack'd and blacked himself. It's a desert-peasant supremacist religion that tolerates nothing but abrahamism.

            Don't feel like worshiping this poison? Too bad! You're now sentenced to 900000-trillion-bajillion years in the torture dimension! How inspiring.

            The real hell was kneeling to this puke for over a thousand years.

            Different anon here, but you are really a braindead moron

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, they were all in hell or Purgatory. Jesus delivered some of the just souls in hell, which he went to after he died on the cross, and this is commonly known as the Harrowing of Hell.
    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      So why does Dante leave Homer et al. in Purgatory?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I haven't read Dante.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymouṡ

        >So why does Dante leave Homer et al. in Purgatory?

        Well first of all he doesn't. They're in limbo, not Purgatory.

        "Limbo" is a place in Dante's hell which is a sort of "hell-light". It's grey and dim and boring but not actively painful. It comes after the very first bit of hell (which houses the people who were too mediocre to bother about). It's in Inferno Canto 4.

        This "limbo" holds the people you're talking about, the "virtuous pagans"; mostly good people who lived before Christ. Virgil is here, along with Homer, Plato, Aristotle, etc.

        Purgatory is much better than limbo. Purgatory is where you go if you're not good enough to go straight to heaven, but not bad enough to go to hell. Basically if you're a Roman Catholic with flaws. It's a mountain you climb up (over hundreds of years) getting rid of your sins. The key is that at the top you get to go to heaven. People in limbo are stuck there indefinitely. (Perhaps not literally forever, because at the Last Judgement all bets are off. Dante isn't sure about what exactly is going to happen then.)

        Dante was just following Catholic doctrine which said, the only way to get to Heaven was to be a good Catholic. Yeah, that means, if you live in outer bongoland before the missionaries get there, too bad. And if you lived before Catholicism, too bad. Also, if you died as a child before you were baptised, too bad.

        Dante is pretty upset about all these things. He even goes so far as to question Beatrice and say "this doesn't seem entirely fair to me."

        Beatrice's reply is basically, "God's plan is ineffable. You can't understand it. Just shut up and have faith."

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    no

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I don't have set beliefs about their eternal fate. That's in God's hands. I do, however, think about some of them in particular.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nah straight to hell, lake of fire and all that
    Sucks 2 suck I guess should have been born at the right time lmao nerd

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