Free will? You thoughts on it?

I watched the pancake lady's video on free will and had to think a bit. What do you guys think about free will.

I think we can make decisions, but the consequence already exists for your decision and action. Your life isn't totally without your control, you control but the output will be something already planned by the universe.

This is why we have deja vu and can have clairvoyance in our dreams. We can sometimes mess up our mind so much that in a blip was a piece of the future we already saw, and already know, but forgot in a different part of our head.

Again. What do you guys believe when it comes to free will/determinism?

POSIWID: The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does Shirt $21.68

Ape Out Shirt $21.68

POSIWID: The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does Shirt $21.68

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    free will is best defined as the ability to have done otherwise. whilst it's impossible to test, i personally believe we do NOT have free will.

    sabine actually held a talk on superdeterminism and free will earlier today, which was attend-able via zoom (she's currently in canada). it was great, except they wrapped up before giving me a chance to ask my questions to her.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Is it going to be on regualr youtube soon?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        i hope so, but i won't hold my breath. for the previous talk she gave on superdeterminism, they said they were going to upload it to YT, but they never did for some reason. but this time it's a different institution, so we'll see. keep an eye on the 'perimeter institute' YT channel, or just search 'superdeterminism' and sort by recent to check if it's uploaded.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        i hope so, but i won't hold my breath. for the previous talk she gave on superdeterminism, they said they were going to upload it to YT, but they never did for some reason. but this time it's a different institution, so we'll see. keep an eye on the 'perimeter institute' YT channel, or just search 'superdeterminism' and sort by recent to check if it's uploaded.

        update: the talk has been uploaded here

        https://pirsa.org/24040080

        unknown if it will go to YT

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Disagree with your definition of free will.

      If you possess a spirit that's neither matter nor energy as we know it and can just do shit for no materially causal reason but can affect the physical world, then you have free will.
      It supposes that the spirit is both involved in thought, affected by thought, and not subject to physical cause and effects.
      That's sufficient to be free-will.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Disagree with your definition of free will.
        you are free to do that, but in so doing, have made me frown.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This right here is the core of the debate on free will; do you believe in magic or not?
        If you believe in magical concepts like souls, free will must be true because souls are outside nature, being supernatural forces. To anyone who doesn't hold magical beliefs, there's no particular reason to believe in such a thing.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >do you believe in magic or not?
          Just because we're unaware of certain phenomenon doesn't make it magic. People who think they know everything about consciousness and how it relates to whatever we call reality are fools.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But it's exactly the other way around. There is zero reason to believe free will exist, as every "choice" you make is still grounded in physical laws. The null hypothesis is that our brains, as part of physical reality, work the same as everything else we have observed, ever (i.e., deterministic or at best probabilistic in the sense of quantum mechanics). Unless you can show that for some reason you can make a choice that clearly violates that, for example "choose" something that violates the laws of physics, there is no reason to accept there being anything like free will.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        A brain is a blob of meat blindly following the laws of physics.
        A spirit is a blob of something, blindly following whatever laws apply to whatever a spirit is made of.
        Basically, having a spirit is fundamentally no different from just having a brain.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Fine. Well, since you're not doing anything to me. I'll just reverse that on you quickly and fine you for all your money. And don't yeah me, I've suffered pains and nightmares and 'humiliation' much worse than you. I experience a life much harder than you. And I promise you, I won't be scared of whatever you think next or when you've done this part coming up.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            There's no way I can move 'out the way of cranie' I'm not the same type of thing as you hence 'down here' and 'where he is' and what he's behind which is like a block. You need to do some study, like you didn't do the detective work. Perhaps he creeps down and you need to come from the top down.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Shits going on

            -just grab a leg-

            You're shit at war as well.

            If I was cranie. I would have pounce on that. And got away from you.

            I'll catch him wherever he goes. Hopefully he does get away from you. You deserve less.

            I'm going to hurt you soon.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          False equivalence. You are also using spirit incorrectly when your intent is to refer to the soul, not that you would understand this distinction. Even still, this is similar to saying a program is a computer, or music is the radio. It is complete nonsense.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >A brain is a blob of meat blindly following the laws of physics.
          Even if this is true, it doesn't automatically invalidate free will.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >free will is best defined as the ability to have done otherwise
      simple to test. if we ever get ability to fully predict the future, I should be able to tell you what you are about to do, and you should start doing it without having any power to stop it. which sounds pretty much moronic.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        i believe that technically that wouldn't be testing it, since you could just be getting 100% lucky guesses (sounds extreme, but it must be considered). to truly test free will, you would have to prove or disprove the existence of counterfactual worlds (see image in 1st post). and there is no conceivable way of doing that.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >I should be able to tell you what you are about to do
        You are about to breathe air.

        >you should start doing it without having any power to stop it
        You can't stop yourself from breathing, you can only delay it a bit, so your test proves free will is false.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          it makes for a moronic loop where if you consider the absolutely fixed future, you can always break it. if not it implies once you become aware of the future, you become trapped in your body with zero control over anything, forced to watch what's written. you become an observer on rails.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you can always break it.
            Nope, you are still about to breathe air, so your test still proves you don't have free will only limited choice to delay breathing by a few moments, but you are still going to do it, so you are still bound by the external rather than free to act out your internalized willpower.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            anon that's moronic. that's not a worthy argument. grow up.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Its not an argument, it is actively applying anon's moronic test and you not getting the result you wanted, so you are just going to continue to breathe air while you cope and seethe about how your magical freedom to force your will on reality doesn't actually exist. Inhale. Exhale. Cry harder. Whine more.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >if you are not God you have NO free will
            I'm more into the having agency thing but whatever. if it's our ability to ponder information, and the future is not fixed (at least because of radioactive decay) then it's good enough for me, works as "free will".
            unless you can prove this effect of taking a backseat in your own body and being on automatic drive is possible?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Its not actually the thing I wanted it to be, its completely different with completely different properties, but I will still call it the other thing anyway because I have very fragile emotions and maturity.
            Denial is a helluva drug. Inhale. Exhale. Cry harder. Whine more.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            People breath automatically but can decide to control it. I could decide to hold my breath, or breath slowly and quietly. Even by your definition of free will where we will inevitably perform an action, we still have partial free will over our actions. I could decide to walk in a straight line across a country but the landscape and buildings would interrupt my free will of traveling in a straight line. Even then I'd choose between many possible routes to navigate the obstacle. I have the free will to jump until my body gives out or I must get on with my day. Even though I was forced to stop jumping inevitably, it's still free will that I chose to continuously jump.

            I'm my opinion being restrained by our environment and body doesn't we don't have free will. Our consciousness exists within a constrictive vessel bound by natural laws.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            More: We have free will over our choices but we don't have the privilege of doing whatever we want.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >People breath automatically but can decide to control it.
            Nope, you can't stop it, you have a very weak definition of reality being controlled and free if your reality doesn't include the actual ability to freely control it.

            > it's still free will that I chose to continuously jump.
            No, it is limited choice, you only have so much amount of time and so many possibilities that your form is compatible with, none of which have to do with your willpower having freedom over reality.

            >I'm my opinion being restrained by our environment and body doesn't we don't have free will.
            Then your opinions is stupid and doesn't actually match the words you use. You might as well be telling us your opinions is that your are the one almighty god because you can imagine making impossible choices and pretend that you did otherwise.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            kek you are moronic

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            (You) are trapped inside of (You) and will never break free. Inhale. Exhale. Cry harder. Whine more.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            you're just a cuck who can't take responsibility for his choices

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wrong, I have enough mature responsibility in life to actually acknowledge that I am only making choices instead of larping and pretending that I am freely exercising some magical power of the will some deity has bestowed upon me as their demigod.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Great, now what do the non-NPCs think?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Good job admitting you have no idea since you are too obsessed with self-contradicting religious concepts of yore, it makes dismissing your outdated moronation all that much easier when you openly admit you don't even have thoughts of your own.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Nope, you can't stop it, you have a very weak definition of reality being controlled and free if your reality doesn't include the actual ability to freely control it.
            Yes, we aren't gods. My definition of free will is

            More: We have free will over our choices but we don't have the privilege of doing whatever we want.

            . We still have free will, but we have to transcend our natural limitations to stop our free will from getting trampled on. Our consciousness is chained up and being crushed under a giant rock. Our brain and body is a limiting vessel in a limiting environment, but the spark of true free will is still in there.

            >No, it is limited choice, you only have so much amount of time and so many possibilities that your form is compatible with, none of which have to do with your willpower having freedom over reality.
            Again, our free will is limited by our body and environment. Me wanting to jump continuously with a very specific form is limited by my body and circumstance, but my decision to jump like that out of nowhere is sufficient to merit having a free will.

            >You might as well be telling us your opinions is that your are the one almighty god because you can imagine making impossible choices and pretend that you did otherwise.
            They are only impossible because we are limited beings.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Your definition is poorly constructed since it abuses the word free and using it to mean entirely limited by external circumstances rather than the exact opposite which is what free actually means not limited or controlled.

            >we have to transcend our natural limitations
            Nonsense, you would have transcended yourself since identity is one of the major underlying laws of nature and if that happened, you wouldn't have free will, the thing that transcended you would and it would still be impossible for you to have free will since only the thing that transcended you would be capable of such a feat.

            >Again, our free will is limited
            Again, limited is the exact opposite of free, you are childishly abusing language because you are too immature to accept your inherent limitations.

            >They are only impossible because we are limited beings.
            ie not free, free will is impossible, by definition, for beings whose desires and ability to act on them are completely determined by their external circumstances.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Nope, you are still about to breathe air, so
            what if i kill myself
            then i stop breathibg

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But did you or did you breathe as predicted instead?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            no i killed myself and didnt breathe
            so i won
            then i resurrected

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Impressive, but nope, you were still about to breathe air since you are currently breathing air, as predicted.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            yes I breathe every second just like I use my legs to walk and eyes to see and hands to type this. I still have free will and to choose to write this and to choose to come to this thread and to choose to be on my computer right now. I could be reading a book or doing chores or watching a lecture but instead I'm here with you by choice. That is free will even if my environment is limiting my choices

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sure, your limitation is your freedom, your lies are your truths, your weakness is your power, and your ignorance is your knowledge.
            You weren't pigeonholed at all, this interaction where you lost the argument is exactly what you desired all along.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        If you "predict the future" and tell someone what they are going to do and they do something else, then that's what they do in the future and you failed to predict it.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Determinism is a mental illness

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Belief in free will is the next lowest NPC filter below apple visualization

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Anybody who denies free will should be killed. It's worse than denying the Earth is round, by far. Some pop sciers essentially think like thieves: as long as they get the money, they say the most outrageous shit. Death or reeducation, please. I'd also like to get their money.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      How can anyone actually have free will in a universe where they can so easily just be killed simply for thinking freely let alone trying to act freely?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >How can anyone actually have free will in a universe where they can so easily just be killed simply for thinking freely let alone trying to act freely?

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous
  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Free will is misunderstood and misdefined. The universe isn't determined, however.

    The universe is a goo in which various lifeforms try to carve out their own zone of control. Thats the REAL free will. But in that universe, where every lifeform is trying to carve out their own zone of control, you have to deal with other life form that also want to carve out their own zone of control. This conflict limits the scope of free action of the lifeform. But lets not confuse free action with agency. The reason why beings have agency is because of localized autopoietic systems within the organism's body that act as a barrier to the outside world.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The universe isn't determined
      It is though.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        if it's only partially determined you can't call it determined. larger scale structures might act deterministically.
        if we don't know how le wavefunction collapses then it's not deterministic. being able to math out the future means you get certainty over shit. you'll know 100% how wavefunctions collapse, before measurement

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Bruh, if it's true whether or not you feel bad about it is determined, so there's no point in saying there's not point. Anyone who feels bad about it necessarily had to feel bad about it. You wasted your time posting this. But that was determined too! This is why I don't believe in determinism. It's all too stupid when you actually think about it, and no one lives as if it's true because they can't even if it is true.

        what fricking part of the universe is deterministic
        show it to me you morons
        the WHOLE THING? nonsense
        show to me precisely and exactly with no compromise whatsoever any system at all in this universe which at its base level is anything more than probabalistic
        oh wait! you fricking can't!
        >>>/x/

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Quantum mechanics is non-determinisitc.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >universe is time cubed
        YIKES

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          You're being exploited by the same person who is exploiting me and it is causing you pain whether you notice it or not. I'm trying to fix that. It is Andrew Cranie.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous
  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I didn't watch the video. I think Universe is deterministic. It just makes sense to me.

    No point in feeling bad about it too I guess. Everything is so complex that we cannot predict shit anyway, so we can have some fun with the unkown.

    Show must go on.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      No reason at all to believe the universe is deterministic until scientists can prove they can make predictions about the behavior of living organisms accurately. Not statistically. No approximately. They should be able to predict the path of a chicken through a yard in the same manner they can predict the path of a ball thrown through a yard. Until then, living beings simply have different physics than everything else and no one understands them yet.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        it's like consciousness (can) exists because of uncertainty. it's strange in a sense.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I have plenty of reasons to believe that just observing the world. It matters little what happens at quantum level, for example since at certain scales its effects are irrelevant.

        Our whole model of Universe from the very moment big bang occurred desribes more or less, not in a perfectly accurate way but that's to be expected, process that looks incredibly deterministic, everywhere there is creation of stars, planets, galaxies, of course with some variance between them, but everywhere pretty much same thing is happening.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >some variance between them
          Which implies it isn't deterministic. Because if the Big Bang happened everywhere, as the theory says it did, then everything everywhere should evolve the same way. Your fundamental physical laws tell you the universe should be symmetrical in almost everyway that matters. And yet you look around and it isn't. You get galaxies of vastly different sizes and makeups. You get giant voids with nothing in them. The universe is very inhomgenous.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not really, we know from the background radiation that initial conditions had small variables, so that explains it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The background radiation is an effect of the non-determinism, moron.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because you said so?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Bruh, if it's true whether or not you feel bad about it is determined, so there's no point in saying there's not point. Anyone who feels bad about it necessarily had to feel bad about it. You wasted your time posting this. But that was determined too! This is why I don't believe in determinism. It's all too stupid when you actually think about it, and no one lives as if it's true because they can't even if it is true.

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    not watching this
    I have the subjective experience of free will
    I know about the studies on short term decision making, where the decision is made a significant amount of time before the subject reports being aware of the decision. I don't think this is meaningful when it comes to things like complex planning, or decision making in terms longer than ~5 minutes. The universe might be deterministic, but I'm hesitant to accept any concept claiming general knowledge about the universe based on little more than thought experiments.
    It's impossible in practice to actually test whether or not free will actually exists, because we can't even demonstrate how or why the conscious will exists in the first place. Until science can explain why I can perceive my own thoughts at all and why I'm not just a meat machine that exists to spread genes, I have to simply accept my own subjective experience of free will.

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    "free will" is a matter of how much. we want as much as possible. we like having choices, especially in certain situations. we're fine with not having any, in others.
    you can also talk about free will in episodic terms, regarding certain events/happenings. somebody forced you do something, you had no (real) choice. this forcing stuff can take a lot of shapes, not only physical (but it usually eventually translates to something physical)

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >no power to computer
    >can't write shit on 4chin
    >proof I don't have free will
    that moronic

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >we can observe neurons... THINKING?!?!?! Free will cannot possibly exist!
    Determinists are disingenuous morons.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Nope, (You) can only be (You) and your moronic opinions will always be bound by the limited processing power of your severely damaged moron brain.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >nooo, you're not supposed to exit the dichotomy

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    there's two sides fighting over free will, and each needs their version to justify other shit. meanwhile, the reality of things is obfuscated this way, and neither of sides are actually right.
    religious free willers are using the concept to force you accept bad shit, and threaten if you don't you are a NPC, literally coercion with free will (epic).
    the other morons are the weakest of the bunch, which uses lack of free will as a pretext to take no accountability over any of their actions, even justifying horrible shit this way.
    both sides are shit this way. break the cycle anon

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Disingenuous argument. Free will is advocated because it is the natural conclusion from observing one's own decision making process. We take input data, and come to "our own" conclusion. That's free will. Determinists step in and say "HEY WAIT THERE'S THIS WEIRD PROCESS IN THE MIDDLE, FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST!" and then pretends everyone was actually talking about Jesus all along.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Determinism is the view that all events in the universe are causally inevitable
        but fully predicting the future would make you a helpless puppet knowing the result of every interaction (which you don't because you can't predict which atom will decay next) and be forced to play it out even if you know how it will work out.
        do this, perfectly predict the future, and which atom will decay next, and show everybody you can mesmerize anyone by dictating what they are about to do, and them powerlessly do it while hearing you narrating their immediate experience.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No, if you had free will, you could choose which atom decays next, but you can't because you are at the mercy of externality, so you can only observe which atom decays next rather than having any free reign over your circumstances.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            1. Prove you aren't a bot
            2. Prove you exist
            3. Prove you aren't a figment of my imagination
            Welcome to hard mode wienersucker. Your opinions are irrelevant and your whiny b***h boy materialism will not be able to save you from the cold hard truth. Your whole reality is merely to generate a back character I find amusing enough to distract me from one fact: I am the only one out here. And you can't even do that.
            Pathetic.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >free will must exist since my will is not even free enough to prove I exist to other people
            Welcome to derp.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Except you are the one coping, seething, crying, and whining about how you can't actual transcend the material or yourself and you will always be you confined to your particular space and time.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don't disagree that we ponder all solutions, it's just that us as a very complex system are at the mercy of particular conditions at particular times which cannot be predicted.
            one solution doesn't fit all. I don't always want vanilla ice cream. some days I feel like strawberry, other's as chocky, depends. on my collection of atoms state at some particular time.
            yes, we are always pondering information that is available, but we do it with a system we have some control over. I can make a headache go away, maybe, but I can't always focus at will. sometimes I have brainfarts with no control over it. all because of the plethora of interactions that are happening inside this pondering mechanism that I am.
            we can't know the future, and we'll always do something, we don't know exactly what, but we will.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            So you are saying that your will is not even free enough to predict your own actions in advance, let alone pick the circumstances that induce them?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            not sure I ever understood why you are referring to yourself like this constant thing. you are not as constantly precise as a fricking lathe. you're all over the place. we are quite wobbly one day to another.
            free will is just making choices. it is missing when you don't have a choice, it's limited when you have few choices, it's quite free when you have many choices.
            got no free will over my life span, upwards. there's a hard limit imposed by the state of things. but I have downwards, culminating with kys. that is choice, that is free will. but have no fricking free will over living past what body can do, at least atm.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you're all over the place.
            Sure, (You) can be anything you want to be as long as its (You).

            >free will is just making choices.
            No, choosing is making choice and its just an extension of the pigeonhole principle since the set of choices are finite and decided for you. Free Will is when you have the ability to impose your desires upon reality without any restrictions or external control.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Free will is the ability to will something on, and un-will it if you want. You're toying with peoples comfort zones.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            but do you see how that is automatically a God only feature because he wouldn't be obstructed by literally anything?
            just because you can't put an apple on every plank point in the universe doesn't mean you don't have free will. you can put it in your house, in your friend's house, anywhere outside. you can't put it in hard to get to places. that is not raping away your free will. you still have lots of options.
            I mentioned earlier, it's best to think about free will like a spectrum, not absolute value. ideally you'd have as many choices as possible, but our reality makes it clear there are limitations.
            you'd be robbed of your free will if you were a spectator to your life. a weird dark type of existence, like trapped in someone else's mind and forced to experience everything with zero control. that is total lack of free will. which isn't the case with humans

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            God is still obstructed by its environment and nature, the only possible way it could have created everything was if there was already a vast nothingness available to place everything else.

            >just because you can't put an apple on every plank point in the universe doesn't mean you don't have free will. you can put it
            What if you are allergic to apples want the apple to be an orange?

            >free will like a spectrum
            Nope, free is binary, either you have limitations or you don't.

            >you'd be robbed of your free will
            Can't steal something that doesn't exist.

            >a spectator to your life
            Sorry you can't be introspective, but being unable to be a spectator to your life makes you even less free than someone who could externally observe their self.

            > trapped in someone else's mind and forced to experience everything with zero control.
            You do have zero control of your past whether it be choices in your past or external circumstances, you can't control any of it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            t. Spastic.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >t. Fallacious

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            look I'm just pointing out the absurdity of how you defined free will, nothing else. few issues arise, including a big fricking paradox.
            so, if there's no free will, and you are determined, that should be (eventually) easily demystified and shared as info. once shared, this information must have a weird enslaving effect. that is the only way to prove we're determined and can't do otherwise.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I have shared the info and you will continue to be you and breathe air as long as you live no matter how much you wish otherwise.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            see you are only able to tell me about that which is not free will. you are able to point out that which enslaves me, there is certainty in that, no way for me to avoid it, since it isn't free will.
            you should be able to do that about everything that I will do, without me having a choice in doing otherwise when I find out about it. whatever works like that, is not free will. that is why I told you that is the only way you can prove it. with everything that I have a choice in. not that I have no choice in.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >durr admiring you are actually limited in nature rather than free to will, should mean you are free to do anything and predict everything hurr

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            there's some wrong premise that makes you error out. when you error out, stop patching the monster, you're only embarrassing yourself. go back to the premise.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No, spell check made me error out by putting admiring when I meant admitting because I forgot a t, but your lack of argument and implicit concession has been noted, thanks for playing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            listen, Imma dumb it down even more
            determinism is real implies future is set and you can predict my choice. that adds something moronic to the decision loop, your prediction (sort of time travel paradox). I can just act NOT-prediction and invalidate your prediction, and thus determinism. it only works if I can never have access to the "what I'm about to do" information. which also suspiciously matches with determinism BEING NOT FRICKING REAL. you don't have access to that information when it doesn't exist because it's not set in stone.
            if determinism is real then there is a certain sequence of words that when heard, fully and utterly enslave me in a way in which I can't make a different choice and go right when you say I will go left. that sort of enslavement would be analogous to breathing, you will feel forced to do it, like it or not. like this weird "fate" like power fully taking over your actions

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >listen, Imma dumb it down even more
            You are already pretty dumb, I have my doubts that you can get any dumber and still be able to post words to the internet.

            >I can just act NOT-prediction and invalidate your prediction
            So if I predict that you will breathe air within the next ten minutes, will you pass out trying not to or just admit that you are a chatbot and your opinion on free will is entirely algorithmic in the first place?

            >analogous to breathing
            Yes the fact that you are slave to breath proves that your will is limited in part by your ability to breathe among many other factors.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >So if I predict that you will breathe air within the next ten minutes, will you pass out trying not to or just admit that you are a chatbot and your opinion on free will is entirely algorithmic in the first place?
            bruv are you fricking moronic? I already said that is not an example of free will, what the frick is wrong with you?
            Yes the fact that you are slave to breath proves that your will is limited in part by your ability to breathe among many other factors.
            yes you imbecile, there is no fricking free will in breathing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >there is no fricking free will in breathing
            I accept your concession, good job for finally making sense, a being bound by breath can't possibly have free will since all their choices will necessarily revolve only around things that are conducive to breathing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Maybe if we make the stipulation that you must behave intuitively at every step, I could predict your actions. But as soon as executive function is allowed you can easily stymie my prediction as you say, by doing otherwise.

            If you do meditation you can get into this state where the executive and the sensation of free will disappears, and you are just kind of riding around in a meat robot without any "authorship" of your actions. I think in that state you would not be able to subvert my prediction.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            actually if determinism is real, there would not exist a sequence of words to fully enslave you. if the future is calculable, you wouldn't see A future where that happened, and then be able to make it happen or not. You would just see the one future. If that were to happen in that one future, you wouldn't see it happening, in fact it will not happen, you gaining this knowledge was then predetermined and "changing" your decision was as well.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            determinism implies there is no way to gain access to the information of what you will do. if that information leaks into the system, and more exactly (and weirdly enough) consciousness, it logically breaks the game. you need an obfuscation layer, guaranteeing you cannot fully know the state of things, which makes me think about the uncertainty principle and random events. weirdly determinism breaks consciousness

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you need an obfuscation layer
            Perhaps like a bunch of competing individual, rather than any single universal, perspective?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            having choices is free will in my book. more than not having choices

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because your book is written by a language abusing narcissist whose ego clouds the truth.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            thank you for the therapy session but can you actually form an argument?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You mean like pointing out that its bad to abuse language just to appeal to your ego by concealing your own flaws and limits, so you should quit doing that if you expect to be taken seriously instead of treated like a self-centered child?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            bingo

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            see also: quantum darwinism, bitcoin

            these are all isomorphic to the brain's process of arriving at a decision

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It would be better to say you never changed a decision in the first place, if gaining knowledge of the future is determined for a person than there will be no more choices just an optimal mundane future that is revealed. You would not see yourself dying in some accident, and be able to make a choice to prevent it. You'd just never see the accident. Like you say it wouldn't happen.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            As an observer of the life which you deem predetermined you imply an element of counter or neutral control that proves an element of freedom to will

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I didn't deem life to be predetermined, I deemed your desires in life to be limited by external factors beyond your control since the limits themselves control your choices and ability to choose.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Being pigeonholed is not at all being free, it is being forced into one of a limited set of choices.

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    You are the one claiming to believe you have free will, so you are the only one whose claims can even partially be proven by kys, but you will never be able to prove that doing that is a valid path to willing yourself to be other than yourself, so you still don't have free will, just the ability to choose whether you live or die.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You're the one claiming to believe that you don't exist, so you're the only one whose claims can be proven by kys, if you kys and nothing happens then you're right.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        No, you are the one claiming you don't exist since you are the one who is claiming to be free to choose which means be free to choose to be whoever instead of just yourself.

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Everyone in this thread kys, now, and take your meds. Will is both free and restricted.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >both free and restricted
      Something can't be itself and the opposite of itself.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Will is will.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Good job finally realizing it isn't free since it is what it is rather than what you wish it to be.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you're all over the place.
            Sure, (You) can be anything you want to be as long as its (You).

            >free will is just making choices.
            No, choosing is making choice and its just an extension of the pigeonhole principle since the set of choices are finite and decided for you. Free Will is when you have the ability to impose your desires upon reality without any restrictions or external control.

            Translate posts like these.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Free will is imaginary, reality is beyond your control, you didn't even choose to be yourself let alone all the things that happened after you were thrust upon yourself.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            So you just perceive yourself and there is no control? Doesn't the fact you perceive involve some control aspect, otherwise you're a. Going to suffer under all that uncontrolled motion and data. B. Not there at all, a NPC.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I think I see what's going on here (NPC mind lole expression). Ignore me. Pretend I never posted.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Perception indicates limited human agency, but it is not free, it is bound by the limitations of human form and the natural environment since you don't will your perception into being, you behave according to what you perceive from an external environment.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you behave according to what you perceive from an external environment.
            Yes, thank you for giving us a workable definition of "awareness". Awareness is a necessary prerequisite for agency ie free will. What does it even mean to behave without awareness, without any form of sensory input about the external world?
            What a meaningless statement. The very definition of life is something that senses and behaves according to its environment.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sure, it is so free because it is limited by a bunch of prerequisites.

            >What does it even mean to behave without awareness, without any form of sensory input about the external world?
            It would mean you actually had free will because your desires weren't limited by external observations, of course it is nonsense because free will is nonsense.

            >The very definition of life is something that senses and behaves according to its environment.
            Exactly, your definition of yourself inherently limits you to sensing and reacting from a single point perspective which is completely antithetical to imposing your will upon reality freely.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >It would mean you actually had free will because your desires weren't limited by external observations, of course it is nonsense because free will is nonsense.
            Your definition of free will is essentially God, an omniscient omnipotence.
            >which is completely antithetical to imposing your will upon reality freely.
            That depends entirely on how broad a conception of "free" one is considering.
            You're adopting the most fanciful notion of "free" that I've ever seen someone use.

            When a police officer tells someone they are "free to go", do you autistically screech that no-one is "free" to go anywhere because we are constrained by having legs instead of wings, constrained by the fact that the Earth is finite, constrained by the fact that there are private and hidden areas that most people cannot access?
            Is that what you understand by the phrase "free to go"?
            Or do you take it to mean that the subject is free FROM a certain type of impediment or handicap or compulsion?

            Being able to moderate your instinctive behaviour to bias one outcome over another is a hallmark of agency, not a deterministic proof against free will.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Your definition of free will is essentially God, an omniscient omnipotence.
            No, see

            God is still obstructed by its environment and nature, the only possible way it could have created everything was if there was already a vast nothingness available to place everything else.

            >just because you can't put an apple on every plank point in the universe doesn't mean you don't have free will. you can put it
            What if you are allergic to apples want the apple to be an orange?

            >free will like a spectrum
            Nope, free is binary, either you have limitations or you don't.

            >you'd be robbed of your free will
            Can't steal something that doesn't exist.

            >a spectator to your life
            Sorry you can't be introspective, but being unable to be a spectator to your life makes you even less free than someone who could externally observe their self.

            > trapped in someone else's mind and forced to experience everything with zero control.
            You do have zero control of your past whether it be choices in your past or external circumstances, you can't control any of it.

            tl;dr god still wouldn't be free to be not god.

            Free is a binary, either you are limited or you are not. You are confusing a set limited range of pigeonholes that you have to choose between with freedom.

            >When a police officer
            People use a lot of idioms and folksy moronation that doesn't actually mean what the words mean when they say to chill out, they don't actually mean to sit in a bucket of ice like a wine bottle chilling out.

            Agency is not the same as free will at all, agency is about actions being inherently limited by an agent's nature while free will is about having no limits.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Free is a binary, either you are limited or you are not.
            Actually under your definition, "free" doesn't exist because even God wouldnt be free.
            Congratulations, you've just redefined freedom out of existence. What now of morality and criminal responsibility? Do you believe humans ought not to be punished for their misdeeds, since they didn't choose to misbehave?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >durr being forced to choose from a limited set of options means you didn't choose at all rather than you didn't choose freely hurr.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >durr being forced to choose from a limited set of options means you didn't choose at all rather than you didn't choose freely hurr.
            Well, at least you're conceding that a choice is made, rather than the predetermined automata of the Sapolskian determinists. Our differences of opinion on the meaning of "free" in "free will" aside, I agree that our choices are limited at the very least by the bounds of our imagination.
            What I call free will, you call constrained agency. I call it free will to point out that we are not simply pre-programmed meat puppets, we can innovate behaviours, not to imply that our actions are limited by the environment.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >pre-programmed
            The programming is continual.

            >we can innovate
            No, you can observe your environment and the behaviors of similar bodies and choose which behaviors to emulate, to use free in that scenario is to abuse language because your ego can't accept your limits.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            One's will may exceed their ability, but the will remains. Hence fantasy, imagined narratives, storytelling.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But the will is still limited in nature, you can't will something unimaginable since you can't even conceive of that thing in the first place let alone desire it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Unimaginable things, by definition, don't exist. Anything that exists or is even possible of existing, can be imagined.
            So your argument is that free will doesn't exist because your will is limited because of imaginary non-existable concepts?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      we're basically always winging it

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    We don't have free will because pretty much everything we do is always tied to external factors that we never had any control over to begin with

    If you decide to hold your breath after reading the post, literally the only reason why you did that was because you read this post and wanted to respond to it. And the reason why you read this post and responded to it is likely because for whatever reason you are interested in the subject of free will and because you happen to browse this board and this website. Why are you interested in this subject and this website? Did you "will" yourself to be interested in them? How does that make any sense, we have no actual control over our interests. You can't force yourself to be genuinely interested in science or the subject of free will any more than you can force yourself to find someone unattractive, attractive

    If you keep asking "why" for everything you do, every decision you make you eventually reach some sort of factor or reason that you have no control over. Why do some people turn to crime? Because they weren't raised properly/had no role models/were born poor or in a bad area/etc. Okay, but you have no control over who raises you, whether or not you get exposed to a proper role model, or what socieconomic status you're born with or what environment you're raised in. If you're going to be edgy and say genetics, you have no control over that either.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Translation: I'm moronic no-one read my post or take me serious. I will now kms

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      That's also how I see it. The more I learn about life the more I realize I know jack shit about anything. It's not just a question of the number of input variables, they influence each other too in ways we overwhelmingly can't model (and maybe never will).
      This small knowledge gives me a feeling that with research, we will eventually be able to model everything, making free-will false.

      But again, maybe we'll never reach that level of understanding because we hit the peak of our civilization, making this model impossible to reach, making free-will true for our species.
      Like randomness, it seems like free-will is just a measure of our ignorance.

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >but muh GOD
    Okay, is God omniscient
    If he is, that means he must know what will happen in the future
    If he can see the future the future is predetermined which means we have no free will. That also means that God has no free will.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      the ability to consider the reality and make a choice might not be compatible with the concept of free will, as you define it.
      we can easily see this when testing with the
      >I'll just start saying what you will surely do
      idea and check to see if anon starts behaving like a puppet or not. you being able to consider information and act on it makes for free will.
      your whole "but you are predetermined" bullshit works only and only said person doesn't have access to what he's about to do. because once he does, he becomes instantly enslaved with no ability to act differently. it's a sort of paradox
      >you'll go left
      I'll go right just because I know he said I'll go left
      simple as.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        It's not about considering the reality. If God is omniscient he must know what will happen in the future. If that's the case, then the future must be predetermined.

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Free will is not falsified until general anaesthetics are better understood.

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >go in here to expect people to discuss that since the universe and all matters is defined by predetermined hard rules, then hence all your thoughts and actions via the biochemistry of your brain and body are all also predetermined
    >it's mostly just schizo mumbo jumbo
    is this even a science board anymore

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >are all also predetermined
      >random events
      you're not really into science tho, are you?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Is there such a thing as a random event, or a long series of simple actions that build into a complex happenstance that we label as random, because we fail to see all the actions and their connection. because our biggest support for universal randomness rely on the world of quantum mechanics being probabilistic rather than determinable, but who is to say that these probabilities are in fact such, rather than our current failure to perceive the larger picture?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Free will is mumbo jumbo, why would you be surprised that a mumbo jumbo thread is filled with mumbo jumbo?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Free will is mumbo jumbo
        Determinism is the real mumbo jumbo.
        >ACTUALLY THE UNIVERSE IS PLAYING LE EPIC PRANK ON... NOBODY! HAHAHA, GREAT JOKE!

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    You either play the game or you don't, you aren't free to invent another option, you must choose or the choice will be made for you.

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Free will is not real. It's a made up thing, like societies, genders, practices, languages, logic, etc.

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    > I watched the pancake lady's video on free will and had to think a bit. What do you guys think about free will.

    Free Will can be defined as the ability of an individualized consciousness to chart it's intention, thought or action adiabatically separated from rest of the universe. The ability to identify and exercise free will is apparent in all entities which are autopoietic.

    Denial of it's existence can only emanate from an entity so strongly plugged into a constructed/synthetic Weltanschauung (what people here call NPCs)... or from an agent getting paid from the purse of project Chaos.

    In my observation, Free Will does not exist for many humans here on this earth at this state of evolution. She is either one such person (which I highly doubt) or is making videos that cater to those viewers who do not want to take control of their life or really have no control over their material life.

    I would have my intellectual firewalls up and running at DEFCON 1 if I have to watch videos made by descendants of german nobility trying to poison the minds of the masses while pretending **tee hee i am just a scientist***.

    > Your life isn't totally without your control, you control but the output will be something already planned by the universe.

    Our life is completely within our control. But "You" might comprise several competing subconsciousness that might not always play nice with each other. In Maslowian terms, the animal in you always tries to pounce on the saint in you.

    Your statement hinges on the assertion that transition from Dualistic world view of You $notin$ Universe (Dvaita for you lurking x-gays) and Non-dualistic worldview of you $in$ Universe has an epistemological continuity. In my opinion, there is not smooth transition and you need an AHA moment to go through the shift.

    1 of 2

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/QwiIyCu.jpg

      I watched the pancake lady's video on free will and had to think a bit. What do you guys think about free will.

      I think we can make decisions, but the consequence already exists for your decision and action. Your life isn't totally without your control, you control but the output will be something already planned by the universe.

      This is why we have deja vu and can have clairvoyance in our dreams. We can sometimes mess up our mind so much that in a blip was a piece of the future we already saw, and already know, but forgot in a different part of our head.

      Again. What do you guys believe when it comes to free will/determinism?

      > this is why we have deja vu and can have clairvoyance in our dreams.

      In my opinion, deja vu can occur when an external observation is familiar to one part of your consciousness but appears novel to another (usually self-reflective) part of consciousness. In the current zeitgeist of cartestian reductionist epistemologies Deja Vu is "just a prank bro" played by your mind to your mind. But in the non-dualistic epistemologies "information" is coming from "elsewhere".
      Dreams are one such state of being where the "heavier" states of mind are dormant (heh) and the lighter and brighter parts can roam freely. The information gathered in this state of mind can trickle to the lower mind just around the time of 'waking up' and hence give an impression of clairvoyance. In reality, in my opinion, we always have clairvoyance.. we just have not practiced "tuning into them" or "listening to our Muses".

      Many humans who make such videos or subscribe (heh) to such tenets like those sprouted by silver spoons like Von Hossenfelder et al. either have their higher spirit/state of consciousness withered away or have banished their metaphorical Muses.

      > What do you guys believe when it comes to free will/determinism?

      For "us" it exists and can be exercised through Self-Mastery. Bringing our body, mind and spirit into harmony with each other and with the greater universe is our life's epic struggle after all!

      There is a great project to dissolve the individualization in the masses and scientifically plug them into metaphorical Borg Matrix before the masses can actually "learn to listen to their Muses". So, many in the coming generations will not have such a bright individuation of consciousness.
      People like Von Hossenfelders, Valeranis, von Heyings, peerage of the Isle of Wight, Brandtmans, Bernstein-Petersons will have succeeded if it comes to pass.

      PS: NGE was a documentary, NERV is not a meme, TI is a process.

      2 of 2

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Our life is completely within our control.
      ywnbaw

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    barkun mf namegay put your name in your fricking messages

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    broski I legit don't even know what my problems are. I'm barely surviving here lmao

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    as far as I am concerned you can have your magic back
    >but given profit
    none given

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It doesn’t matter if we have free will or not when from our perspective down here we DO have free will. It is seamless.

    Yes, you can choose to go left or right. It doesn’t fricking matter if some higher dimensional alien poked at your brain.

    Whether alternate timelines exist only mathematically, or literally, I do not know, but a completely different world would definitely have formed had the Cuban missile crisis gone haywire.

    Either it exists hypothetically or it doesn’t exist at all.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >from our perspective down here we DO have free will.
      who is "our"? from my perspective, we don't
      >It doesn’t fricking matter if some higher dimensional alien poked at your brain.
      actually it does, but that's not relevant to free will
      >a completely different world would definitely have formed had the Cuban missile crisis gone haywire.
      that is a meaningless statement if it is true that counterfactual worlds don't exist
      >Either it exists hypothetically or it doesn’t exist at all.
      no, either it (free will) exists or it doesn't

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >from my perspective, we don't
        You just used free will thinking this.

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Electrode studies clearly demonstrate free will and the recognition of external stimuli as completely external
    >I still don't believe
    Your faith is mighty

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    the fact that i independently came to the conclusion that there's no free will at age 12 makes me think there probably *is* free will. now that i'm older and wiser that position just has that uncanny sheen of something that superficially seems obvious and "intelligent" but penetrating more deeply you see it's missing something closer to the truth - basically, the bell curve meme in action. (not helped by the fact that many of the determinists i see on social media are smug Enlightened Atheist midwit redditoids.) really have no strong conviction either way currently but i want to be persuaded that there is free will.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Compatibilism makes the most sense
      Free will is a philosophical problem, not a scientific one, and people have been having debates about this shit since before the block universe hypothesis or neuroscience

  30. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Amour fati

  31. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The "person" has free will but "a people" can't help it..

  32. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    why do the enlightened redditors who most fervently believe in determinism also get the most angry at people who have the wrong political opinions? every chuddy magatard can't help it, their politics were baked into the universe 5 billion years ago and it's completely outside of their control

  33. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >fails in life goals
    >insta tly starts complaining it's not her fault
    Classic

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      simplistic brain dimwit

  34. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    TASTE THE GUFF OF MY FART

    let it be a home to you

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      change your diet farty boy

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *