Getting Protestantpilled

How would justification not be by faith apart from works. Can some Catholic or Orthodox convince me, preferably using the Bible…sola fide seems irrefutable

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    they are going to quote James 2 and then not understand it.
    they are going to interpret the rhetorical questions in James 2 in such a way to render Romans, Galations, John, etc. incorrect.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Galatians*

      also, bonus points if they pull out verses which directly contradict their theses as evidence for* them

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I don’t think they are damned for preaching a works-based gospel or anything like that, they clearly have faith in Christ, but I would just say they are torturing themselves for no reason.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >I don’t think they are damned
        keep reading your Bible my friend.
        meditate particularly on Christ's words on the Pharisees.
        God bless.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Does "judge not lest these be judged" really mean anything aside from whatever calvinball theological pissing contest thing you want it to?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >with what measure ye mete it shall be measured unto you
            note that I am not accusing anyone of something I am guilty of. I am just stating facts.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Does "judge not lest these be judged" really mean anything aside from whatever calvinball theological pissing contest thing you want it to?
            Yes it means don't judge hypocritically, this more clear if you read the rest of the verse.

            Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      What is the ‘misunderstanding’? I’ve never heard the actual position *from* a real Protestant, it always ends up devolving into a pissing contest and insults from one side or the other.
      I have no joke really wanted to hear what about the Catholic / Ortho position on works (especially James) is incorrect for you guys.
      I’m a big believer in understanding different perspectives, but often heels are so dug in that I don’t even get to hear the argument / position itself.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Okay.
        Essentially, Romans 4 and James 2 are parallel passages; or at least, they are worded very similarly with very specific differences.
        Romans 4 explains how man is justified before God* and is saved*
        James 2 explains how to be just before or in relation to men and in particular our brethren in Christ.
        Both chapters include in their thesis quotations on Abraham's righteousness.
        The key difference in James 2 is that by Abraham's obedience, he is called "The Friend of God"; a higher level of righteousness; and that "faith is made perfect by works"
        cathodox interpret "faith made by perfect by works" to mean you have to do works to be saved contradicting Romans 4
        >to him that worketh not but believeth...
        etc.
        whereas the Bible nowhere states you must have perfect faith to be saved. just faith.
        works make our faith perfect. but you dont need to have perfect faith to be saved. this is where they stumble.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          A faith without works is dead, a faith with works is alive — Protestants affirm this teaching from James 2. But justification is perfect righteousness from God, and good works contribute nothing to this.

          Thank you anons. As I suspected it’s not actually that hard to express when someone actually tries. It’s refreshing as a Catholic have been actually given the time of day.
          I’ll pray and read on this and am sure it will help both in my prayer life and in understanding / discussing with Protestants.
          God Bless you guys

          Does "judge not lest these be judged" really mean anything aside from whatever calvinball theological pissing contest thing you want it to?

          For me, it’s the key to avoiding the sin of presumption. Fighting that fallen instinct to judge when only God has that right is very important. God’s judgement is just, ours is infinitely more cruel and flawed.

          Protestantism is nothing more than an anti-clerical movement. Sola fide is just something they cling to so they can tell themselves that anti-clericalism isn't their whole reason for being. I doubt the OP could even tell you what sola fide is, and what the Catholic/Orthodox position is and why it's impossible.

          I’ve learned that one of the greatest graces is to give people the chance to (positively) surprise you.
          Not to say we should be gullible or overly trusting but when I was more cynical there was a lot of learning I missed out on. Ended up avoiding both the idiots and the wise.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          True, although it's important to emphasise that Protestants don't believe you'll be saved by a dead faith where you just intellectually assent to the gospel but don't take it to heart. Good works are a sign of true faith, but it's the faith that saves you.

          Another wrinkle is that Catholics usually interpret good works as performing works which as instituted by the church (e.g. confirmation, confession, etc.), not just general care for your bretheren. Catholics also don't separate faith and works, they see obedience to God's church as part of having faith.

          Yet another difference is their views on Justification and Sanctification. I don't know as much about the Reformed, but the Lutheran view is that you are declared righteous by your faith (like Abraham) and thus legally justified when you come to faith, even though you haven't earned it. You are then sanctified by morally improving over the course of you life as a Christian as a consequence of your faith and justification. The Catholic view is that Justification is a process that's tied up with sanctification, for example you can lose justification by committing a mortal sin and not going to confession for it.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          It's kind of mind boggling, how can you have faith without works?
          Either you are in some nonsense trolley problem kinda scenario, or your faith is fake.
          If your faith is true, you'll find ways to do good works too.
          Not because you're scared of the big bad God, but out of love, for God and for creation.
          Separating faith and works is disingenuous, for your ethics will influence your actions, and if they won't are you sure those are your ethics?
          You can't be a man of faith and a greedy capitalist or a warlord at the same time. If you have faith, your actions have to make some sort of sense in the light of your faith. Not because God requires works, but because they come naturally to a man of faith.
          Or you're just paying lip service, like the Pharisees.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Okay legitimate question;
            What does Jesus' atonement do for you?
            Why is it that his life, death, burial, and resurrection are called "the good news"?

            because In particular, I can articulate why Jesus' life, death, burial, and resurrection are integral to why I'm saved by faith alone,
            also the Trinity; how the father sending the son; the son propitiating the father; the holy ghost drawing us to the cross; I can articulate how these guarantee my salvation by faith alone.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You can believe doing drugs is wrong but still do lots of drugs. It's similar.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        A faith without works is dead, a faith with works is alive — Protestants affirm this teaching from James 2. But justification is perfect righteousness from God, and good works contribute nothing to this.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Protestantism is nothing more than an anti-clerical movement. Sola fide is just something they cling to so they can tell themselves that anti-clericalism isn't their whole reason for being. I doubt the OP could even tell you what sola fide is, and what the Catholic/Orthodox position is and why it's impossible.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          > I doubt the OP could even tell you what sola fide is
          Justification precedes good works (imputed righteousness)
          > and what the Catholic/Orthodox position is and why it's impossible
          Justification is contributed to by good works (infused righteousness)

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Christianity is nothing more than an anti-pharisaical movement. Sola fide is just something they cling to so they can tell themselves that anti-pharisaicalism isn't their whole reason for being. I doubt the OP could even tell you what sola fide is, and what the Pharisee/Saducee position is and why it's impossible.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Taker yer pills you dirty bawd.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            he’s right tho

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The New Testament says a million times that people will be saved or not according to their works. I'm not looking for every example but Revelation 20:12 and Matthee 5:20 are two off the top of my head. Here's another, Jesus says that if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you. That is explicitly something you have to do besides having faith or else you will NOT be saved. Again there's no shortage of examples, just read anything not by Paul. I'm an atheist btw.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >I'm an atheist btw.
      curious.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Is it?
        There’s a lot to learn in the Bible and other religious texts even if you’re not a believer. Even if it’s understanding a little better how those who believe in it think.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >I'm an atheist btw
      Interesting

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Psalm 118:97

      Oh, how I love your law!
      I meditate on it all day long.
      Your commands are always with me
      and make me wiser than my enemies.
      I have more insight than all my teachers,
      for I meditate on your statutes.
      I have more understanding than the elders,
      for I obey your precepts.
      I have kept my feet from every evil path
      so that I might obey your word.
      I have not departed from your laws,
      for you yourself have taught me.
      How sweet are your words to my taste,
      sweeter than honey to my mouth!
      I gain understanding from your precepts;
      therefore I hate every wrong path

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Jesus talking here btw

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Faith implies works. There's no such thing as faith without charity.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      So you're saying that salvation is by grace through faith plus* works?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        No, I'm saying faith is works.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          So faith is* works?
          How are you "saved by grace through faith apart from works" then?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The grace is apart from works. That's why it also says "so that no man may boast". You don't "earn" grace, but once you have grace, which is through faith, you may proceed to doing good works (charity). There is no such thing as a faith minus works. What would that even leave you with? How would a person who does not act faithfully be said to have faith or grace? The initial grace is by faith lrior to doing any good works, but justification is through the subsequent works you do by faith.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >What would that even leave you with? How would a person who does not act faithfully be said to have faith or grace?
            maybe read Romans 4 it answers your exact question.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Abraham had a living faith, not a "faith" devoid of charity.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            uh huh.
            Is that what Romans 4 says?
            Who exactly is the "man to whom God will not impute sin" and "unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works"

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What exactly do you think "faith" is? We are saved by the things we do in faith, such as baptism, confession of sins, forgiveness, etc. We don't, however, merit the initial grace of faith by which we are justified.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >What exactly do you think "faith" is?

            idk... maybe
            >That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
            >For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            So you don't have to get baptized, you don't have to help the needy or visit the sick, you don't have to do anything at all other than say the magic words?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            To be saved? What does the Bible say?

            To grow in the grace and the knowledge of the lord Jesus Christ? Of course you have to do these things.
            But salvation is, as the Bible says, a "free gift" and "without works"
            Consider the lepers Christ heals; he heals all 10, but only one comes and gives him praise.
            Did the other nine lose their healing? did they just never get healed in the first place. The salvation of God is without our* works.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >What does the Bible say?

            >1 Peter 3:2
            >And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you

            >Matthew 24:13
            >But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

            >Matthew 19:16-17
            >Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

            >Matthew 25:45-46
            >He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

            >John 3:36
            >Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

            >John 6:27
            >Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”

            >John 6:54
            >Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

            >John 12:25
            >Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.

            >Romans 2:6-8
            >who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Again, and I repeat, the way which you interpret these random verses is at odds with others and you do not reconcile them.
            I have proved how to reconcile them.

            each of these verses you provided is so deprived of context what you have done amounts to a gish gallop.
            but I will say; your works WOULD save you if you were sinlessly perfect (but then Christ has no use), and your works at the present time will* damn you without Christ.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Again, and I repeat, the way which you interpret these random verses is at odds with others and you do not reconcile them.
            I have proved how to reconcile them.

            each of these verses you provided is so deprived of context what you have done amounts to a gish gallop.
            but I will say; your works WOULD save you if you were sinlessly perfect (but then Christ has no use), and your works at the present time will* damn you without Christ.

            In particular this is why your quotation of Romans 2 is so disingenuous or misinformed. It's an entire chapter leading to the explanation of why your works DONT save you and why you need Christ.
            The conclusion of this thought in Romans 2 is
            >Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Matthew 24:13
            >But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
            Not a refutation of sola fide. Sorry.

            >Matthew 19:16-17
            >Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
            Not a refutation of sola fide, it’s a commentary that only one man is good, for only man kept the commandments.

            >Matthew 25:45-46
            >He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
            Not a refutation of sola fide, it’s a call to treat others well. If it’s an objective standard clearly state what it is.

            >John 3:36
            >Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
            Correct, antinomians aren’t gonna make it.
            Still not a refutation of sola fide.

            >John 6:27
            >Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”
            Irrelevant passage.

            >John 6:54
            >Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
            No church professes that if you partake of communion you are guaranteed salvation.

            >John 12:25
            >Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.
            Not a refutation of sola fide.

            >Romans 2:6-8
            >who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
            Again addressing antinomians, not a refutation of sola fide.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Romans 6:22
            >But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.

            >Galatians 6:7-9
            >Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up.

            >1 John 3:15
            >Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

            >1 Corinthians 6:9
            >Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?

            >Matthew 19:24
            >Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

            >Matthew 21:31
            >Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.

            >James 2:14
            >What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

            >John 5:29
            >those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

            >Romans 8:13
            >For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

            >Titus 1:16
            >They claim to know God, but by their deeds they deny him. They are vile and disobedient and unqualified for any good deed.

            >Revelation 20:12
            >I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Surely you understand I could do the exact same thing as you are doing? But in doing so I would look like an idiot.

            I would much rather exegete verses in context than snow you with a hundred verses which say some variation of
            >we're saved by grave through faith, not of works lest any man should boast

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Revelation 20:13
            >The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.

            >Revelation 22:12
            >“Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.

            >Matthew 16:27
            >For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

            >2 Corinthians 5:10
            >For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

            >John 8:39
            >They answered and said to him, “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham.

            >Titus 3:8
            >I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others.

            >James 2:21-22
            >Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

            >Revelation 2:23
            >Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds and that I will give each of you what your works deserve.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You keep on misunderstanding: I am not saying once youre saved your deeds dont result in reward or punishment
            Remember the parable of the talents?
            The master's servants all receive different degrees of honor; but they still receive that honor.
            What you do in the flesh will translate to rewards and degrees in heaven, but you cannot lose* your salvation.
            A believer has their sins atoned for in the spirit while living in the body of flesh, and they receive temporal punishments and eternal rewards.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What do you mean by "saved"? Is salvation a thing that happened in the past or something that is happening now? I think most people would assume "saved" means "not condemned to eternal torment", which requires that you do good.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            As per Romans 4, when you believe on Jesus Christ you have righteousness imputed* to you; meaning you have done good.
            wouldnt you say that having righteousness imputed to you is having done good?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Answer my question. What do you mean by "saved"? It sounds like you are talking about a past event that happens once. Otherwise, I don't know what we are talking about, because Romans 4 is talking about initial justification by which you come to repentance, not final salvation. If you are talking about some event that happens once and then you live the rest of your life exactly as an atheist would, you're not actually following Jesus' teaching that you must endure in good works until the end (until the day of your death).

            >Matthew 24:13
            >But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What event is Jesus Christ talking about in Matthew 23:13?
            Because he's talking about a specific future event.

            I guess it's better for you to read the Bible in random single verses rather than from start to finish book-to-book.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Please answer the question. What do you mean by "saved"? If you sin, even after baptism or confession or whatever you count as "faith", you can still receive eternal punishment as per Romans 2:

            >Romans 2:6-8
            >who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Romans 2 continues into Romans 3, sir.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I guess you can't tell me what you mean by "saved", then. It sounds to me like you believe in the false gospel of "Once Saved Always Saved" where you can become a Christian then live the rest of your life sinning carefree and still go to Heaven because Jesus "counts" your unrepentant sin as "righteousness", and that's what you are ashamed to admit.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I already admitted it lol
            You just missed your setup so you wanted me to say it again
            But it seems like you delivered your punchline anyway.

            Btw those exact words you wrote are what you’ll hear from Jesus on judgement day,
            >you’re an unrepentant sinner who thinks himself righteous?
            but the difference between you and me is that I trust in him and you trust in yourself.
            HE is my righteousness. Not my own.
            You’ll say
            >lord lord!
            >many good works have I done in your name!
            But he never knew you.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Lmao. You have to actually do what Jesus says in order to get into Heaven.

            >Matthew 7:21
            >“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            ^Define irony
            Oh well.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Here, I'll define irony for you. Someone who reads the Bible and calls themselves Christian but doesn't actually practice Christianity.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Thanks

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >We are saved by the things we do in faith, such as baptism, confession of sins, forgiveness, etc
            Outsider but you lost me the moment you said that. Because your case it now no longer that those works a part of a living faith, but that those works are what actively save you, that your righteousness isn’t imputed to you, but rather earned by you through your works. Which is wrong.
            >We don't, however, merit the initial grace of faith by which we are justified.
            justification is the first step and the assurance of salvation. If one is justified as righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ then one is saved. One cannot be justified and be unsaved that wouldn’t make any sense.
            See

            https://i.imgur.com/c42PHiE.jpeg

            Justification is by faith alone.
            Justification is the 1st part of the plan of salvation.
            Sanctification is part 2 and is by faith and works (cooperation with the Holy Spirit).
            Therefore one can say salvation is by works and faith.
            >We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
            >When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            But it's not the acts themselves. It's God acting through them. God himself came up with the sacraments, not some rando.
            At least you're trying to correct each other. The concern of both parts is understandable. Stop clowning around.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >But it's not the acts themselves. It's God acting through them.
            My problem with the positron is no one plays it through to the logical conclusion.
            >God himself came up with the sacraments, not some rando.
            Literally no one has ever claimed otherwise.
            >At least you're trying to correct each other. The concern of both parts is understandable. Stop clowning around.
            I’m sorry I didn’t understanding this part.

            Anyone if you are saved by God working through the Sacrements and it’s Sola Sacrementa then anyone who is baptised and/or has taken communion would be saved.
            Now you could take the position that God is only selectively working through the Sacrements in which case your soteriology now has zero assurance of salvation because you could do the Sacrements and you could just be shit out of luck and not be saved via the Sacrements.
            So what is your actual soteriology. If God saved through the Sacrements how do I know I am saved?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Faith implies works
      This, faith alone saves but a saving faith is never alone.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Justification is by faith alone.
    Justification is the 1st part of the plan of salvation.
    Sanctification is part 2 and is by faith and works (cooperation with the Holy Spirit).
    Therefore one can say salvation is by works and faith.
    >We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
    >When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Both prots and catties are wrong. The truth is that what really saves you is Timorem Dei.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

    LEST
    ANYONE
    SHOULD
    BOAST

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I think there’s a small risk of overscrupulosity in this debate for this very reason. Kind of like getting to the point of debating the number of angels that can fit on a pin.
      If faith is alive good works naturally proceed, God works goodness through us when we are aligned to him and in a state of grace.
      I think it’s important to flex our theological muscles and make sure our principles / dogmas are sound, but ultimately faith and works seem like a chicken vs egg debate.
      The curious debate would be whether we’ve seen example of someone with true faith and no good works whom has been saved - but that’s hard this side of judgement day.
      Even the good thief had good works in being a witness and martyr to Christ’s passion.
      The key is that we all agree that faith in Christ is the one Way to salvation and that without faith works are useless. You can’t buy your way to Heaven with good boy points.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Even the good thief had good works in being a witness and martyr to Christ’s passion
        this is a reach...
        but its better than those whove insisted to me
        >uhh well baptism saves so that means he mustve been baptized at some prior point"

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah it is a reach, I’m just using it for theological conversation fodder.
          That example of baptismal literalists is just the sort of gymnastics I don’t think is very productive.
          God being a slave to His own ‘salvation checklist’ is incredibly pharisaic. If anyone gets a “fiat” it’s God Himself.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        We can never debate this topic enough as long as Roman Catholics, Calvinists and Eastern Orthodox keep damning themselves by twisting the gospel into works-based salvation then I'll stand on my little soap box hoping someone will hear my ramblings

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >I'll stand on my little soap box hoping someone will hear my ramblings

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          https://i.imgur.com/AUNpiHQ.png

          >I'll stand on my little soap box hoping someone will hear my ramblings

          Well I appreciate it.
          As long as we keep Christ at the center and stay open to the Spirit, debate keeps the faith and the intellect sharp.
          I will take a Christendom that cares enough about Jesus to spar than the new age relativistic limp-wristedness that is currently in vogue.
          Part of how we’ve gotten to this materialist, godless society is by being too quick to abandon our soapboxes.
          Let’s keep one another sharp, then maybe the enemies of the Church won’t find us such easy fodder.
          >t. Catholic

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    John 6:29
    Faith is the work of god
    So faith is a work
    Sola fide=you are saved by a work

    Check all of James 2

    What was considered works in James 2:25 was considered faith in Hebrews 31:11

    Matthew 25:34-36
    >The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world
    >For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat

    Matthew 7:21-27
    not faith alone
    Not works alone
    Faith and works

    Habbakuk 2:4
    >Live by his faithfulness
    The versions who have it as faith say live by his faith

    Genesis 15:6
    >and he believed the lord and it was counted to him as righteousness

    Psalm 106:30-31
    >Phinehas stood up and intercepted
    >and it was counted to him for righteousness
    Here we can see that the same wording was used in Genesis 15:6 and Psalm 106:30-31 for being granted righteousness one was for belief (which is a work according to John 6:29)
    And the other for standing and interceding (a work)

    And most importantly you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through your faith and works
    It is not because of yourself that you are saved

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Faith is the work of god
      true
      >Sola fide=you are saved by a work
      true, Christ's work through his life, death, burial, and resurrection
      >through your* works
      not true
      you seem to be taking "work of God" to mean "the work God gives you"(a continual process) rather "the work which belongs to God"(a singular work which is attributed to God)
      either way, if to believe is a work, it's still ONE work, and not workS.
      any other interpretation breaks the Bible.

      also something you never* bear in mind is that whenever Jesus is talking to the multitude he is not speaking plainly.
      >The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Of course I don’t mean you are saving yourself
        It is arrogance to say
        My faith and works saved me
        Because we are only saved through Christ

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        John 14:23-24
        >Obey my teaching

        What were Jesus’s teachings?
        John 6:29
        Matthew 7:21-27
        Matthew 25:34-36
        It is clear that faith isn’t enough

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          If Jesus said
          >be ye therefore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect
          are you going to take it at face value and say
          >you have to be sinlessly perfect to be saved
          ?

          Or maybe there’s something deeper Jesus is trying to say
          You know, kinda like in Galatians where it says
          >But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

          You will never measure up to the standard of true righteousness which it would take to justify you before God

          >it’s still ONE work
          It still means faith is a work
          Therefore, Sola fide means salvation through a work

          So you’ve determined that “faith alone” means “faith alone”

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Obviously not as being perfect is not comparable to simply doing good works
            But ofc this isn’t an argument
            So anyways the passages I mentioned mentioned the kingdom of heaven
            Matthew 25:34-36
            >34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
            >35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
            >36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
            As you can tell this is an explicit mention of the kingdom of heaven
            The verse you mention didn’t mention salvation in the passage

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >simply doing good works
            there's no such thing as "simply" doing good works. to be "good" you have to be perfectly good; which is either by your own effort (impossible), or imputed (not infused) to you through Jesus Christ and faith in his atonement.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Abraham was considered blameless by God, he was just a guy.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            We've been over why this is.
            He had righteousness imputed unto him. The righteousness of Christ by faith.
            Romans 4

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            > He had righteousness imputed unto him
            Noah didn’t, the Bible says he was righteous in his generation.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            it says he was perfect* actually
            and what does it say a few verses prior?
            >But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Romans 4 quotes Genesis 15:6 which has the same wording for righteousness as psalm 106:30-31 in which Phinehas was granted righteousness for interceding and standing up (works)

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Intervened**

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Which is why I told you not to consider it as an argument so keep on reading
            And what do you mean by perfect works anyways?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >You will never measure up to the standard of true righteousness it would take to justify you before god
            Well yes obviously

            >So you’ve determined that “faith alone” means “faith alone”
            I’ve determined it means faith itself is a work, more proof works matter in salvation

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >it’s still ONE work
        It still means faith is a work
        Therefore, Sola fide means salvation through a work

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Faith is the work of god
      Yes
      >So faith is a work
      Yes, of God
      >Sola fide=you are saved by a work
      Of God, yes.
      Anon, I…….

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Debunk the rest of the post anon

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          So far it seems only one side has actually attempted the deconstruct the other's arguments, and the other has just kept going
          >nuh uh

          Faith leads to works. Faith =/= works. Salvation =/= by works.
          Faith leads to works the same way being alive leads to breathing.
          Let's say, an untimely birth which was born but ceased to breathe, was it never alive? Even better, did it never exist*?
          Even better, were they never born?
          Salvation is likened to a new birth. You're either born or you aren't.
          You did no work to be born the first time. And the second time is without works as well.
          To be born a second time leads to working the works of God, but it's not some 100% guarantee; or else salvation would be BY works. Which, in no uncertain terms, it is NOT.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What if someone believed in God but didn’t care to help anyone else?
            And debunk the rest

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >What if someone believed in God but didn’t care to help anyone else?
            they would actually care* but whether or not they actualized their care is up to free will.
            when someone's spirit is regenerated (salvation) they are given a new heart and "the mind of christ" as the Bible says. But this coexists with the carnal mind and the flesh (you still have a physical fleshy brain coaxing you into sin).
            I do posit they have an inward change. But declaring they MUST do works to BE saved is incorrect.
            We've proved before that the state of a backslidden Christian is to be deprived of honor and rewards* in resurrection, he will not* "be over ten cities" or five as the parable says. "But he himself shall be saved."

            What I am doing is debunking your premise* by which you incorrectly interpret these verses. Your lens of interpretation is incorrect and therefore dbunking every single sub-argument is futile.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            But faith without works isn’t enough
            It’s blank
            Too many words for no reason
            >dbunking every single sub-argument is futile
            Come on man you can’t just ignore it at least explain your interpretation

            John 6:29
            Faith is the work of god
            So faith is a work
            Sola fide=you are saved by a work

            Check all of James 2

            What was considered works in James 2:25 was considered faith in Hebrews 31:11

            Matthew 25:34-36
            >The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world
            >For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat

            Matthew 7:21-27
            not faith alone
            Not works alone
            Faith and works

            Habbakuk 2:4
            >Live by his faithfulness
            The versions who have it as faith say live by his faith

            Genesis 15:6
            >and he believed the lord and it was counted to him as righteousness

            Psalm 106:30-31
            >Phinehas stood up and intercepted
            >and it was counted to him for righteousness
            Here we can see that the same wording was used in Genesis 15:6 and Psalm 106:30-31 for being granted righteousness one was for belief (which is a work according to John 6:29)
            And the other for standing and interceding (a work)

            And most importantly you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through your faith and works
            It is not because of yourself that you are saved

            Explain these please

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >explain these 50 things please mr expert

            okay, can you explain these 2 simple verses?
            >Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

            >And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

            I will not be so disingenuous to ask you to explain 50 things in a single post.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I previously mentioned this

            [...]

            The context of works here is the works of the law (circumcision etc….)
            As I mentioned faith is a work

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

            is ONLY talking about the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law?
            seriously?
            can you explain why this logical principle would arbitrarily change based on which type of work is being referred to?

            >(not work) otherwise grace is no more grace
            >(not grace) otherwise work is no more work

            Works and grace are ONLY exclusive if talking about a small set of good works?

            If you wont listen to me, I leave you Clement, who lived with and was taught by the Apostles.

            >And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The context of Romans was to unite gentiles and israelites
            In this context St. Paul was stating that Christ saves us not the Mosaic Law
            That’s in the same passage
            >It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
            You still haven’t answered my questions
            And answer what I mentioned concerning the wording used in Romans 4/Genesis 15:6 about Abraham being granted righteousness
            And you didn’t answer my other questions

            >Clement

            >“How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence, faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! And all these fall under the cognizance of our understandings [now]; what then shall those things be which are prepared for such as wait for Him? The Creator and Father of all worlds, the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty. Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vain glory and ambition.”
            His understanding of faith is much different that the modern Protestant understanding

            Now answer my other questions

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I think you genuinely have a hard time with reading.

            >How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence, faith in assurance, self-control in holiness!
            >And all these fall under the cognizance of our understandings [now]
            ^
            we see here that this is ONE set of gifts being spoken of

            >what then shall those things be which are prepared for such as wait for Him? The Creator and Father of all worlds, the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty.
            ^
            now another set of gifts is being spoken of

            >Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him
            ^
            "waiting on him" leads to a different set of rewards than the first set which includes
            >Life in immortality

            which is what I've been saying this entire time; "waiting on christ" i.e. being that good and faithful servant, leads to rewards beyond* life in immortality, beyond the initial gifts

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You have a hard time reading what I told you
            You still haven’t answered any of my questions
            You wrote all this not to answer
            At least give me a source that can answer

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Can you pick your most important question instead of being presumptuous?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The first reply I quoted

            John 6:29
            Faith is the work of god
            So faith is a work
            Sola fide=you are saved by a work

            Check all of James 2

            What was considered works in James 2:25 was considered faith in Hebrews 31:11

            Matthew 25:34-36
            >The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world
            >For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat

            Matthew 7:21-27
            not faith alone
            Not works alone
            Faith and works

            Habbakuk 2:4
            >Live by his faithfulness
            The versions who have it as faith say live by his faith

            Genesis 15:6
            >and he believed the lord and it was counted to him as righteousness

            Psalm 106:30-31
            >Phinehas stood up and intercepted
            >and it was counted to him for righteousness
            Here we can see that the same wording was used in Genesis 15:6 and Psalm 106:30-31 for being granted righteousness one was for belief (which is a work according to John 6:29)
            And the other for standing and interceding (a work)

            And most importantly you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through your faith and works
            It is not because of yourself that you are saved

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            John 6:29
            Faith is the work of god
            So faith is a work
            Sola fide=you are saved by a work

            Check all of James 2

            What was considered works in James 2:25 was considered faith in Hebrews 31:11

            Matthew 25:34-36
            >The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world
            >For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat

            Matthew 7:21-27
            not faith alone
            Not works alone
            Faith and works

            Habbakuk 2:4
            >Live by his faithfulness
            The versions who have it as faith say live by his faith

            Genesis 15:6
            >and he believed the lord and it was counted to him as righteousness

            Psalm 106:30-31
            >Phinehas stood up and intercepted
            >and it was counted to him for righteousness
            Here we can see that the same wording was used in Genesis 15:6 and Psalm 106:30-31 for being granted righteousness one was for belief (which is a work according to John 6:29)
            And the other for standing and interceding (a work)

            And most importantly you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through your faith and works
            It is not because of yourself that you are saved

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What’s the question?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What is your interpretation for these verses

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            And james 2:21-24 please

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >And james 2:21-24 please

            Im going to consider this as your most important question

            >Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
            >Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
            >And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
            >Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

            The most important part of this passage is
            >and he was called the Friend of God.

            you may have consternation, but you don't have to be God's friend to be saved from Hell. But to do good works justifies you relative to MAN; whereas those without works cannot say they are a friend of God, he who, relative to these, does better and more righteous works, is justified relative* to them.

            to be justified is not ONLY in relation to the salvation of your spirit.
            there are two types; justification before God (salvation) and justification relative to man (i.e. being more righteous than others). Abraham, I would say, was more righteous than I* by offering up Isaac. This makes him justified relative to me.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >and by works was faith made perfect?
            Faith is made perfect by works.
            But nowhere does the Bible teach you need perfect* faith to be saved.

            >And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

            the faith you do need, however, is this
            >That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
            >For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

            >Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

            >Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
            this is simply a grammatical misunderstanding
            it's saying "this is HOW works justify" and that "faith is not the only way to be justified"
            which it's not, as I have showed above.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            How about Matthew 25:34-36?
            Doesn’t it mention the kingdom of god prepared for people who fed “me who was hungry”?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Yes. If you do not have imputed righteousness, even the good which you do do is counted as a filthy rag.
            Therefore, it can be said that only those who have believed on Christ with the heart, and had his righteousness imputed to them have ever fed Christ and ministered unto him in truth.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            But isn’t faith without deeds dead?
            Meaning that faith ALONE without deeds/works is not enough?
            If God himself considers you righteous? Aren’t you saved?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Ezequiel 33
            >12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
            >13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
            >14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—
            >15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.
            >16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
            Doesn’t this link righteousness to salvation?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >But isn’t faith without deeds dead?
            yes.
            >Meaning that faith ALONE without deeds/works is not enough?
            why would it mean that?

            >If God himself considers you righteous? Aren’t you saved?
            only if it's by faith in Jesus Christ, and the imputation of his righteousness.
            if you do NOT have this imputation, your sins outweigh your righteousness. You cannot even be said to be righteous in the first place. when you are imputed (or, counted) righteous by faith, at that point your good works are finally added to your account, and you have the opportunity of becoming a "friend" of God by works.
            But if you are a no-good backslidden Christian, you are still saved, since your sins are not accounted to you, spiritually.

            >For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
            >Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
            >Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
            >If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
            >If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >why would it mean that
            Can dead faith save?

            >only if it’s by faith in Jesus Christ
            But righteousness was granted in to Phinehas in Psalm 106:30-31 because he stood up and intercepted (a work) which was also granted to Abraham in Genesis 15:6 (same wording)

            >yet so as by fire
            Reference to purgatory?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Can dead faith save?
            yes
            >What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
            yes, but i cant tell he has faith: he may as well be an infidel to me and the church

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >can faith save him?
            But in this passage wasn’t Abraham considered righteous for what he did in this passage?
            So by context doesn’t it mean something more than justified in front of humans

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            yes.
            Im explaining that this specific rhetorical question is saying that if you dont demonstrate your faith no one can tell that you actually believe and are saved by by that faith(and by no one I mean no human)
            Abraham is the example which everyone can tell was a friend of God by his works.

            Romans 4 explains his justification by imputed righteousness through faith. James 2 explains that justification is not only by imputed righteousness through faith but also by works.
            What I am saying is that justification through imputed righteousness saves you, and that only by first being counted righteous, can you then be called a friend of God by works.
            You can never lose that first imputed righteousness, however, no matter if you work or not. that's the crux (amen) of what I'm saying.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >14 can faith save him?
            Question
            >15 suppose a brother or sister is without clothes or daily food
            Here he gives an example of the case
            >16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
            Asking what good is it (still in the case of faith saving him if no works are with the faith)
            >17 In the same way, faith by itself, if not accompanied by action is dead
            End of paragraph
            With the way it is written doesn’t it seem like a no answer to the question?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
            >24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

            Now in romans 4
            >2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
            >3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

            If we link the passages together doesn’t it seem that Abraham was justified in front of God and not humans?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >"but not before God."

            >If we link the passages together doesn’t it seem that Abraham was justified in front of God and not humans

            not sure about that.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I mean about his faith justifying him before god
            And in James 2 he believed god and it was credited to him as righteousness and then it says that a person is considered righteous by what they do
            In Romans 4 it says he was considered righteous because of his faith

            And how about James 2:19
            Do Demons get saved?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Demons don’t believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. They just believe he exists.
            Do you really think it’s saying
            >demons have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior
            ?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            They believe it happened as well
            You think demons have no idea that Jesus died for our sins?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Not to mention the verse was used as an example that faith without works is dead

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            True faith is knowledge-assent-confidence/assurance.
            Demons only have knowledge and assent. They don’t have confidence.

            ?si=wMMVcCl4v1gzGQ6V

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Abraham, I would say, was more righteous than I* by offering up Isaac.
            When Abraham offered Isaac to God the thing God praised about him was his fear of God and his obedience.

            >“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

            >The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

            It is stated many times in the words of the prophets that you cannot understand the ways of God until you fear him. Fearing him is the beginning of wisdom. Only those who fear God truly understand him and remain loyal to him. Fearing God will keep you from doing what he hates and considers evil and from disobeying his command, even if its to sacrifice your beloved Son.

            >Psalm 2:11
            Serve the Lord with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling.
            >Psalm 19:9
            The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous.
            >Psalm 22:23
            You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
            >Psalm 25:12
            Who, then, are those who fear the Lord? He will instruct them in the ways they should choose.
            >Psalm 25:14
            The Lord confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.
            >Psalm 33:18
            But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,
            >Psalm 34:7
            The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he saves them.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            If you feared him you'd realize your daily sin and disobedience and the need for Jesus Christ's atonement; the insufficiency of your works.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Which is the daily sin I commit just for existing?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
            >...Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

            >Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect

            >Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
            If you know you ought to be perfect, and are not yet perfect...

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
            So if you know how to do good works and do not do them, that is sin. Doesnt that debunk your argument?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            no. I am a sinner, saved by grace.
            I would never claim I am in a state without sin. So long as I occupy this mortal body I ought* to mortify its sinful deeds.
            That's not the salvation of my spirit though.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            So if you see a starving man outside your home and you have food in abundance, you are not required to give him some and God will still love you and justify your salvation in the day of judgement even if you let him starve when you could have fed him?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Not him but I think he would say something like
            >Love? No
            >Justify? Yes
            As an atheist, I would say, what the frick do homeless people have to do with my salvation? What does proximity have to do with it? Is it okay to not feed a homeless person if they're on the opposite side of the world? Is it okay to not feed them if you're not in abundance?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >you are not required to give him some
            to be saved? no

            >God will still love you
            he'll love me less but not withdraw all of it

            >even if you let him starve when you could have fed him?
            be honest with yourself, you are accusing me of something exceptionally heinous which you know decently well I wouldn't do.
            but, you who seek to be self-righteous, have you "sold WHATSOEVER you own" and given it to the poor yet?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            bear in mind all the people in the Bible God still loved who did worse than not feeding the hungry
            the truth is that God is far* above us. And had to condescend to us for salvation.
            >For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
            >For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >the truth is that God is far* above us. And had to condescend to us for salvation.
            >the truth is that Stalin is far above us. And had to condescend to us to defeat Capitalism.

            >Atheist here, I'm surprised that Cathodoxy is actually this materialistic.
            I think you have entirely misunderstood what I wrote. I *thought* Cathodoxy was only marginally materialistic, but now I'm learning that even something like not going to Hell is determined by materialism according to them.

            You're not atheist. Materialism is only a concern for religious nuts because it makes absolutely no fricking sense what-so-ever.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            What do you mean by concern? I'm an atheist and concerned about materialism or too much of it - what's the issue?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >to be saved? no
            So you really think you can go your whole life letting the hungry starve and the naked unclothed when you had the means to feed and clothe them and that you will get to live in the presence of the Righteous God of Heaven forever because of empty faith?

            >heinous which you know decently well I wouldn't do.
            Yet you claim that God would save someone who does this heinous thing daily just because he had faith.

            Did not the book of Ezekiel say that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they were proud and arrogant and did not care for or help the poor? Seems like God cares about the needy enough to destroy an entire city who does not do it, but according to you, if the people of Sodom had faith, they could be allowed in heaven.

            >“‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

            It seems pretty obvious to any sane and wise person that the Just and Righteous God would expect those who love, fear and worship him to do good things to others and to have a humble, righteous and honest behavior before him. Just because you cannot buy your way to salvation with good works does not mean that you are not required to do them. If salvation is a gift that God gives to whoever he wants, what makes you think he would want to give it to those who did not care to do good to others?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >So you really think you can go your whole life letting the hungry starve and the naked unclothed when you had the means to feed and clothe them and that you will get to live in the presence of the Righteous God of Heaven forever because of empty faith?
            Do you?
            Have you sold whatsoever you have and given it to them yet?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I go by the words of the old prophets, I worship and fear the Most High God and obey his commandments.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Not him but by this metric, no one is saved because there will always be starving and naked people, and if there aren't, then is that not already Heaven on Earth, and everyone is already essentially saved?

            I go by the words of the old prophets, I worship and fear the Most High God and obey his commandments.

            How is that relevant to what he asked you? So you are not saved, then, and never will be? Is that your answer? Or does just being in the process of doing good works and not actually completing them qualify you for salvation?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Do you not drink water because you will get thirsty again later? Just cause you cant eradicate poverty does not mean you do not have the obligation by God to alleviate those in need from their struggles as much as you can.

            Heaven is way more than a place without starving people, and everyone there is probably naked anyways since everyone is pure and innocent of heart. Its a place of never ending joy, peace and happiness with fragrant trees where fruits are always ripe and sweet. Beautiful angels and glorious and majestic creatures walk by and sing praises to the Most High with mind blowingly beautiful voices. Where you will be showered with pure love and live in eternal bliss and your pleasures will never end.

            >How is that relevant to what he asked you? So you are not saved, then, and never will be? Is that your answer? Or does just being in the process of doing good works and not actually completing them qualify you for salvation?

            Salvation is a gift given for free to those who repent from their evil ways, turn to God and become good till death. Good people do good things so good works are expected from those who are good and serve the Most High. It is important to seek to be as righteous as you can and teach others to be righteous and to repent of their sins and never do them again. To help them understand that God will really forgive them if they really turn away from their evil ways and show remorse and repentance for their sins.

            It is important to be humble and meek, and to tolerate the wrongs that are done to you by others. To be merciful with them, to be very slow to anger and quick to forgive. To be generous with those in need and to treat everyone fairly and with respect. These things are not just works, they are an obligation as someone who has been forgiven an unpayable debt and should be eternally grateful for the grace of God. It is how you show gratitude for the immense and undeserved gift that was given to you out of love.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The water thing is irrelevant, it's not a work.
            >as much as you can
            So do you only get saved for being in the process of doing good works or actually completing them? If the former, how is that different from Protestantism or sola fide, where you could say one is performing their good work at their own pace? If the latter - when is it ever truly complete?

            It sounds like, if everyone actually did these works or obligations, there would be no need for Heaven.

            If I have to pay it back, then it's not really a gift, is it? If it's an obligation, then how good is the work, really? People should do good works because they are good, not for some sort of contract or obligation. It cheapens it.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            The implication here being that, maybe, a lot of people that we think are good, aren't.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You get saved by repenting of your evil and turning to the path of good, and not turning back to your evil ways. There is no pace to do good works, you see a person in need, you help him at that moment. You get hurt by someone, you chose to be merciful and forgive them. You see that your neighbors wife is pretty, and you do not lust after her or sleep with her.

            You do not do good works, you become a good person. You are not paying back, if you helped all the people in the world together, it would still not be enough to pay for you to enter the Kingdom of God. The most righteous man in the world would still require God's mercy and grace to be saved. You are not buying your way to heaven, you are being grateful for being allowed in, like when you are allowed to stay in a friend's house and you show gratitude by doing the dishes and mopping the floor. You are not paying for the stay, you are being grateful.

            Again, if everyone was rich and happy on earth, it would still not even come close to the wonder and holiness of heaven or paradise. The life of the richest and happiest man on earth is like the life of a stray dog if you compare it to walking around heaven for 10 minutes.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            So, you have* sold everything you own and become perfect?
            Or?
            I think I have above proven the validity of sola fide if only by the inanity of this response.
            The only way to be saved is to repent from your dead works unto belief in Jesus and his atonement.
            To have a zeal for God but without knowledge is useless, as it says in Paul.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Jesus explained it pretty well in the parable of the unforgiving servant. If you have an unpayable debt to the king and you beg the king for mercy and he takes pity on you and forgives your debt, you then have an obligation to show mercy on everyone who owes you and forgive them for their debt that is way smaller than the debt that was forgive to you. Or else the King will revoke his forgiveness and demand payment till the last penny.

            So if you show repentance and take refuge in God's grace and he forgives you but then every time you see someone starving you do not share your bread, when someone does the slightest offense to you, you take revenge, you jerk off to your neighbors wife and sleep with married women, and spend all night fantasizing about doing harm to your enemies. Then God will see that you are just a wicked servant who did not truly repent of your evil and took advantage of his mercy and he will revoke his grace from you and demand payment till the last sin.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >There is no pace to do good works
            And yet you have qualifiers. Proximity, need, abundance. What if someone forgives a little too slow? What if someone lusts for a neighbor's wife a little too much? What if someone has too little to sufficiently render aid, but you disagree? What if someone outright falters? Have they become completely disqualified? If so, then sure, okay, but like I said earlier, then no one, or almost no one, is ever really saved. And if they're not disqualified - then there is a pace.

            You talk about gratitude now, but the implication or seed of doubt is still there - you must do good works or you're not *really* grateful. Bad people can *show* gratitude without actually being grateful, and sure, you might say, well, God will damn them come judgment day, but in the meantime, you'd still be praising a bad person. I suppose my point is that I can't know whether a person is truly good or not, and neither can you. Only God can, supposedly. That doesn't make good works irrelevant, but that it shouldn't be such a large determinant factor to salvation or an obligation.

            Sure, let's grant that. But would you really need Heaven, then, all the same, if everyone on Earth was rich and happy?

            You don't know if you are "saved" until the end of your life when you meet God. It's not a one and done deal, you have to actually live a Christian life.

            I won't try to deconstruct a "Christian life", but what if I have a different idea of what a Christian life is? What if I do good works anyway, but not for salvation, not for Heaven, not for some obligation or reward, but because I don't even think about it? Will I be saved anyway?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            > What if someone forgives a little too slow? What if someone lusts for a neighbor's wife a little too much? What if someone has too little to sufficiently render aid, but you disagree? What if someone outright falters? Have they become completely disqualified? If so, then sure, okay, but like I said earlier, then no one, or almost no one, is ever really saved. And if they're not disqualified - then there is a pace.
            Well you see, HE just so happens to never be too slow and HIS pace just so happens to be fine
            Other people though, well, they better be careful.

            (Ponder why Jesus spent so much preaching that the Pharisees were hypocrites)

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Why can't God just love and save me for who I am? Damn man, now I have to consort with women, instead.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Don’t you know that Catholics must confess their sins in order to be forgiven them, it’s not just assumed?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            His are easy to keep track of and he definitely doesn’t forget any

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            This is def not the spirit of Catholicism at all.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Will I be saved anyway?
            Or rather, would I be a better, worse, or equivalent Christian?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            God judges the heart, why did you forgive too slow or lusted too much? Was it because you tried your hardest but the temptation beat you and then repented and showed remorse and asked God for mercy? Or did you not even try because you think your sins are covered so you don have to worry about it? Are you really trying or are you taking advantage of God's mercy?

            God sees your intentions, your struggles and your effort, this is what he judges. Do you understand, if you have read the old testament, that God is the God of Justice and Righteousness and he despises sin and does not tolerate wickedness? You very much have an obligation to not sin, and to weep and mourn and beg God for forgiveness when you fail and commit it, and to atone for it and treat it like a big deal. Because it is a big deal to God. Sin is not supposed to exist, unrighteousness is not tolerated. You literally deserve death for your sins yet God is going above and beyond by offering mercy that you do not deserve and have no way of paying for yourself. The least you could do is try your hardest to give your greatest effort into walking in righteousness and fear of God and to obey him and serve him with all your heart.

            Dont try to take advantage of God's goodness. God is not a fool.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Then why are we even concerned about this? God is God, and you are not. There is only sola fide, or there are only people who believe they are speaking and acting for God but never truly know because they are not God. If I were a Protestant, I would be glad to know that I am saved unless I truly sinned, not because I failed to meet a fuzzy amount of good works.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            That is to say - God outlines and details sin. Good works, not so much, and is far more at the whim of contemporary, earthly concerns.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            At the end it all amounts to who really fears God, loves him and worships him.

            O God, you take no pleasure in wickedness;
            you cannot tolerate the sins of the wicked.
            Therefore, the proud may not stand in your presence,
            for you hate all who do evil.
            You will destroy those who tell lies.
            The Lord detests murderers and deceivers.
            Because of your unfailing love, I can enter your house;
            I will worship at your Temple with deepest awe.
            Lead me in the right path, O Lord,
            or my enemies will conquer me.
            Make your way plain for me to follow.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You don't know if you are "saved" until the end of your life when you meet God. It's not a one and done deal, you have to actually live a Christian life.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >justification relative to man (i.e. being more righteous than others).
            James is talking about salvation, not appearing more righteous than others.

            >As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            “Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right. He does not feast in the mountains before Israel’s idols or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. He is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given as security by poor debtors. He does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. He grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, and faithfully obeys my decrees and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign Lord.

            “But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. And that son does all the evil things his father would never do—he worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worships idols, commits detestable sins, and lends money at excessive interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.

            “But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life. This son refuses to worship idols on the mountains and does not commit adultery. He does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. He gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. He helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and decrees. Such a person will not die because of his father’s sins; he will surely live. But the father will die for his many sins—for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Again you are forgetting other things which warps your lens.
            There are two kinds* of death described in the Bible. Death of the body and death of the spirit*
            Everyone's body will die at some point (if they do not live to see the regeneration). But not everyone's spirit will die.
            We have already before proved that God will punish us (believers) in this body of flesh if we sin; destroying it, even, in dire cases. But our spirit is preserved unto eternal life.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! If the child does what is just and right and keeps my laws, that child will live. The person who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteousness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.

            “Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says God. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. However, if righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things and act like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their righteous acts will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.

            “Yet you say, ‘God isn’t doing what’s right!’ Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one not doing what’s right, or is it you? When righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. And yet the people of Israel keep saying, ‘God isn’t doing what’s right!’ O people of Israel, it is you who are not doing what’s right, not I.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            “Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you! Put all your rebellion behind you, and find yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? I don’t want you to die, says the Sovereign Lord. Turn back and live!

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Or maybe salvation is by faith and works?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
            >Not of works, lest any man should boast.

            :/

            I take it you havent gotten around to reading Romans 4 either

            >Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
            your reward is not reckoned of grace then. you make God indebted to you if you claim to be saved (even in part) by works

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Romans 4 quotes Genesis 15:6 which has the same wording for righteousness as psalm 106:30-31 in which Phinehas was granted righteousness for interceding and standing up (works)

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            No in this entire thread mentioned claiming to be saved

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I take it you haven't gotten around to reading James 2 then

            >What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >he takes a rhetorical question as a literal statement needing no explanation which coincidentally means what he wants it to mean.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Why bother? everyone will just ignore actual serious responses (see

          >But it's not the acts themselves. It's God acting through them.
          My problem with the positron is no one plays it through to the logical conclusion.
          >God himself came up with the sacraments, not some rando.
          Literally no one has ever claimed otherwise.
          >At least you're trying to correct each other. The concern of both parts is understandable. Stop clowning around.
          I’m sorry I didn’t understanding this part.

          Anyone if you are saved by God working through the Sacrements and it’s Sola Sacrementa then anyone who is baptised and/or has taken communion would be saved.
          Now you could take the position that God is only selectively working through the Sacrements in which case your soteriology now has zero assurance of salvation because you could do the Sacrements and you could just be shit out of luck and not be saved via the Sacrements.
          So what is your actual soteriology. If God saved through the Sacrements how do I know I am saved?

          &

          https://i.imgur.com/c42PHiE.jpeg

          Justification is by faith alone.
          Justification is the 1st part of the plan of salvation.
          Sanctification is part 2 and is by faith and works (cooperation with the Holy Spirit).
          Therefore one can say salvation is by works and faith.
          >We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
          >When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.

          ).
          So no I won’t respond to the rest of it because the anons in this thread haven’t earned it.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The works are a part of the Faith. You probably don’t have Faith if there is no evidence from works, but more importantly, your Faith is not living Faith if you do not practice the Faith through works. Faith must be practiced to be living.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      this is all completely valid if this is supposed be how we* see things as humans.
      God can see the heart, however.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        That is true. But do we have hard hearts or supple hearts? We have hard hearts.
        We make our hearts supple through practice. Same as how leather can be made soft by working it.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Never forget the day when you stood before Yahweh your God at Mount Sinai, where he told me, ‘Summon the people before me, and I will personally instruct them. Then they will learn to fear me as long as they live, and they will teach their children to fear me too.’

    “You came and stood at the foot of the mountain, while flames from the mountain shot into the sky. The mountain was shrouded in black clouds and deep darkness. And Yahweh spoke to you from the heart of the fire. You heard the sound of his words but didn’t see his form; there was only a voice. He proclaimed his covenant—the Ten Commandments—which he commanded you to keep, and wrote on two stone tablets. It was at that time that Yahweh told me to teach you his decrees and regulations so you would obey them in the land you are about to occupy.

    “But be very careful! You did not see Yahweh’s form on the day he spoke to you from the heart of the fire at Mount Sinai. So do not corrupt yourselves by making an idol in any form—whether of a man or a woman, an animal, a bird, a small animal that scurries along the ground, or a fish in the sea. And when you look up into the sky and see the sun, moon, and stars—the powers of heaven—don’t be seduced into worshiping them. Yahweh your God gave them to all the peoples of the earth. Remember that Yahweh rescued you from the iron-smelting furnace of Egypt in order to make you his very own people and his special possession, which is what you are today.

    “But Yahweh was angry with me because of you. He vowed that I would not cross the Jordan River into the good land Yahweh your God is giving you as your special possession. You will cross the Jordan to occupy the land, but I will not. Instead, I will die here on the east side of the river. So be careful not to break the covenant Yahweh your God has made with you. Do not make idols of any shape or form, for Yahweh your God has forbidden this. Yahweh your God is a devouring fire; he is a jealous God.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
      Believers all receive temporal punishments on earth for their sins. Maybe you were unaware and thought we believed there were absolutely zero consequences for believers who sin.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    “And now, Israel, what does Yahweh your God require of you? He requires only that you fear Yahweh your God, and live in a way that pleases him, and love him and serve him with all your heart and soul. And you must always obey Yahweh’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.

    “Look, the highest heavens and the earth and everything in it all belong to Yahweh your God. Yet Yahweh chose your ancestors as the objects of his love. And he chose you, their descendants, above all other nations, as is evident today. Therefore, change your hearts and stop being stubborn.

    “For Yahweh your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed. He ensures that orphans and widows receive justice. He shows love to the foreigners living among you and gives them food and clothing. So you, too, must show love to foreigners, for you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt. You must fear Yahweh your God and worship him and cling to him. Your oaths must be in his name alone. He alone is your God, the only one who is worthy of your praise, the one who has done these mighty miracles that you have seen with your own eyes. When your ancestors went down into Egypt, there were only seventy of them. But now Yahweh your God has made you as numerous as the stars in the sky!

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Sola Fide
    Refuted
    >OP homosexualry Levels
    Astronomical
    >OP homosexual License expiry date
    Never

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Which post refutes it? I don’t want to have to read the whole thread.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        John 6:29
        Faith is the work of god
        So faith is a work
        Sola fide=you are saved by a work

        Check all of James 2

        What was considered works in James 2:25 was considered faith in Hebrews 31:11

        Matthew 25:34-36
        >The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world
        >For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat

        Matthew 7:21-27
        not faith alone
        Not works alone
        Faith and works

        Habbakuk 2:4
        >Live by his faithfulness
        The versions who have it as faith say live by his faith

        Genesis 15:6
        >and he believed the lord and it was counted to him as righteousness

        Psalm 106:30-31
        >Phinehas stood up and intercepted
        >and it was counted to him for righteousness
        Here we can see that the same wording was used in Genesis 15:6 and Psalm 106:30-31 for being granted righteousness one was for belief (which is a work according to John 6:29)
        And the other for standing and interceding (a work)

        And most importantly you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through your faith and works
        It is not because of yourself that you are saved

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Protestants aren't any different from the other antichrists. Look at redeemed zoomer. He chose that because he likes pretty buildings, just pure moronation.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >He chose that because he likes pretty buildings
      But he's supposed to be reformed. Why is he arguing for stained glass windows?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >But he's supposed to be reformed. Why is he arguing for stained glass windows?
        Applying Logic to religion in general is futile.

        What do you mean by concern? I'm an atheist and concerned about materialism or too much of it - what's the issue?

        >What do you mean by concern? I'm an atheist and concerned about materialism or too much of it - what's the issue?
        So you're not Atheist then.
        You're like someone being obsessed with crushing "capitalism" who claims they aren't socialist or communist.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I simply believe in the absence of God or a god. Why does that mean I'm a materialist?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >I simply believe in the absence of God or a god. Why does that mean I'm a materialist?
            Literally nobody cares about Materialism aside from God believers you stupid frick lol.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You know how you're not supposed to use the word in the definition when defining a word? Could you please answer why being an atheist necessarily means I'm a materialist without being self-referential?
            >If you're an atheist and not a materialist, then you're not a real atheist. How can I tell? Because every atheist is materialist!

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You're not an atheist anon. You're blatantly and obviously lying.
            Stop being a moron.
            It's obvious.
            I'm guessing you also think you have an immaterial soul?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Depends on the race, but yes, I am more than just the sum of my parts. I assume this is anti-materialist - and I still don't believe in God or a god.

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Why would one separate both ? Faith is a work, and you work for something in which you have faith.
    Faith is an activity in prayer. Faith is active within us, at least in the form of love for God and our neighbour. The hermit who doesn't work still have the work of prayer, an internal work (or with books of prayer,... but a work nonetheless.
    Also sola scriptura is the same stupid false dichotomy between tradition/transmission and scripture. No contradiction between the first saints, first elders, apostles, the first churches,... and what they say and write in scriptures, so the tradition and church matters.
    Excluding one, is very stupid in my opinion.

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >"Don't worry, I am a doctor!"
    "Oh, do you practice medicine?"
    >"No, I don't actually practice."
    "Oh, so you're retired?"
    >"Actually, no, I never practiced."
    "But you are licensed as a doctor?"
    >"Well no, I don't have a legal license to practice medicine."
    "So your license was revoked?"
    >"Technically I never had a license."
    "But you did go to medical school, right?"
    >"No."
    "Then what makes you a doctor?"
    >"I took the Hippocratic Oath."

    >mfw

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >being saved is like going to medical school

      so much for "my yoke is easy"

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        What evidence is there of your alleged Christian faith, other than your utterance of a specific set of words?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          what does the evidence have to do with salvation in the eyes of God*
          can God not see what's inside me?

          It has to do with proving it to others (helping others), which we have showed before.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >By their fruits you will know them

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            right.
            so you see how it relates to how we see things, and not God.
            to whom much is given, much shall be required; by their fruits we shall* know false teachers from the true.
            funny that, those "protestants" with righteous lives dont count to you.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >by their fruits we shall* know false teachers from the true.
            So where are your fruits? According to your teaching, you don't need any fruit and you can live however you want granted your headcanon is lined up.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >where are your fruits huh?
            >on this anonymous internet forum?

            I could literally ask you the same exact question; which would be damning by your admission

          • 1 month ago
            Nega-Dirk

            >by their fruits we shall* know false teachers from the true.
            >So where are your fruits?
            *slams head against wall*
            How do you so aggressively misunderstand their position?
            Unironic question, are you just unwilling to listen or do you understand and are just lying?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            to be charitable; I think he is a native Spanish(?) speaker. so our English responses are not in his native language
            second, most (modern) Spanish Bibles are garbage, but unlike modern English Bibles, there's less suspicion and cynicism around them (I think*).

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Fair enough thank you for clarifying.

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Some Catholic discordgays could tell you

    https://discord.gg/cqnKZte6zW

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The thing I ask is, What do you have against being righteous and obedient and humble and meek and obeying the rules of God? Even if God was saving you for free, if you truly loved him then you would want to be pleasing to him anyways and live according to his rules. And if you truly feared God then you would want to stay away from sin and wickedness. So why do you keep arguing on whether or not you have the right to be a sinner and disobey God? Even if you could, you shouldn't want to. You should be striving to become as good in the eyes of God as you possibly could.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Because everyone every day is a sinner disobeying God.
      It’s impossible to be humble while seeking justification before God* through your works.

      >Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I don't sin everyday anon. There are lots of days I'm sinless.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >there are lots of days I’m sinless
          Are you Cathodox or something stupider?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Because everyone every day is a sinner disobeying God.
        This is not true at all. Tell me which law of God is so hard to keep that you struggle to obey them even for a single day?

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Romans 11
      >19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” >20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
      >21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
      >22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

      Galatians 5:1-5
      >4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

      You can fall from grace and be cut off for misbelief which is why he that endure until the end shall be saved

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        James 2:19
        You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    James 2:24
    >You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone
    Please prots explain this

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Which Protestant church has the correct view on baptism and the Lord's Supper?

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Atheist here, I'm surprised that Cathodoxy is actually this materialistic. I agree with the Protestant view on sola fide. If you have to do some sort of materialistic work to be saved, doesn't that just cheapen it?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >How would justification not be by faith apart from works. Can some Catholic or Orthodox convince me, preferably using the Bible…sola fide seems irrefutable
      So you admit that Jesus was a israeli Rabbi and pharisee before founding his israeli offshoot called Christianity?
      What about the early history of Christianity?
      What about how the trinity itself is never explicitly stated in the NT?
      No, you all need priesthood in order to dictate the "correct" way to interpret the bible.

      >Atheist here, I'm surprised that Cathodoxy is actually this materialistic. I agree with the Protestant view on sola fide. If you have to do some sort of materialistic work to be saved, doesn't that just cheapen it?
      Then Why the bible specify tithing?

      Leviticus 27:30
      “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord"

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >“‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord"
        what does the text in particular have to do going to heaven or hell?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >what does the text in particular have to do going to heaven or hell?
          Not obeying God's word is a prerequisite to being sent to hell unless you repent lol.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            so the text you quoted is irrelevant, oh, okay.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >so the text you quoted is irrelevant, oh, okay.
            So you're going to hell now for ignoring the word of God Yahweh himself....

            Two things, one, tithes are materialistic and that's tolerable because we're not just talking about faith or salvation, we're talking about the institution. Two, what do tithes have to do with salvation or faith?

            >Two things, one, tithes are materialistic
            Then Christianity IS materialistic as is everyone and everything regardless of their stupid claims to the contrary.

            Two things, one, tithes are materialistic and that's tolerable because we're not just talking about faith or salvation, we're talking about the institution. Two, what do tithes have to do with salvation or faith?

            >that's tolerable because we're not just talking about faith or salvation, we're talking about the institution.
            Lol, Materialism is OK whenever God says it is ok. Idol worship (Ark of the covenant) is ok whenever God says it is okay.
            Yahweh is very hypocritical and stupid it seems. Almost as if the Abrahamic religions are nothing more than human creations.

            Two things, one, tithes are materialistic and that's tolerable because we're not just talking about faith or salvation, we're talking about the institution. Two, what do tithes have to do with salvation or faith?

            >Two, what do tithes have to do with salvation or faith?
            What was the point of even putting it in the bible if it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation and faith? It's a rule that you must follow because it was specified by your god dumbfrick lol.

            no. I am a sinner, saved by grace.
            I would never claim I am in a state without sin. So long as I occupy this mortal body I ought* to mortify its sinful deeds.
            That's not the salvation of my spirit though.

            >no. I am a sinner, saved by grace.
            The grace of worshipping a 2000 year old dead rabbi.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Atheist here, I'm surprised that Cathodoxy is actually this materialistic.
            I think you have entirely misunderstood what I wrote. I *thought* Cathodoxy was only marginally materialistic, but now I'm learning that even something like not going to Hell is determined by materialism according to them.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Two things, one, tithes are materialistic and that's tolerable because we're not just talking about faith or salvation, we're talking about the institution. Two, what do tithes have to do with salvation or faith?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The trinity is explicitly mentioned in Matthew 28:19
        >Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
        How can you baptize in the name of the son and the holy spirit as well if they are not god??

        Hebrews 1:12-14
        >10 He also says,

        >“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
        and the heavens are the work of your hands.
        >11 They will perish, but you remain;
        they will all wear out like a garment.
        >12 You will roll them up like a robe;
        like a garment they will be changed.
        >But you remain the same,
        and your years will never end.”
        Keep in mind that’s the father speaking to the son

        Psalm 102:25-27
        That’s a prayer to Jehovah (God of the OT)
        >25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
        and the heavens are the work of your hands.
        >26 They will perish, but you remain;
        they will all wear out like a garment.
        Like clothing you will change them
        and they will be discarded.
        >27 But you remain the same,
        and your years will never end.

        The father tells the son the exact prayer to Jehovah this shows that Jesus is God

        So not only you are moronic you have reached degrees of homosexualry humanity never witnessed before

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Atheist here
      Atheists aren't obsessed with the whole stupid materialism/immaterial religious world view lol.
      Worst liar ever.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        When the white man saw the ocean, he built a boat. When he saw the sky, he built a plane. When he saw the stars, he built a rocket. I believe in a divine spark that white people seem to have.

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    HAAAANK! HAAAANK! YOU NEED TO BE BAPTIZED IN THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH!! HAAANK!!

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    If Sola Fide is true (all you need is Faith Alone), then what are the other 4 Solas for (Sola Scriptura, Sola Christus, Sola Deo, Sola Gratia)?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >if Superman is invincible why can people see him?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Prots: I ONLY need FAITH ALONE
        Also Prots: You also need Hope, Love, Baptism, Grace, Scripture, God, Jesus, Forgiveness, Tithes, Prayer, Confession, Special Election, The Holy Spirit...

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    If sola fide true how come Lutheranism looks like a man made imitation of the mass?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      that just looks the same as any modern RCC church
      that said, Luther wasnt willing to give up the forms* of catholicism despite disagreeing with theology, after all, it didn't matter for salvation, it was "adiaphora"

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >it didn't matter for salvation, it was "adiaphora"
        And yet for other forms of Protestantism, it was idolatry. Which protestant church is right on this?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Doing a ritual along with communion is idolatry?
          Well, anyways; Jesus says “beware of them who go in long clothing/robes” and who “enlarge the borders of their garments”
          And if we want to avoid the “appearance” of evil as the Bible says, we shouldn’t wear these long flowing liturgical garments. But wearing them doesn’t mean you’re not saved. It’s not a salvation issue.
          But anyways, Baptists don’t wear robes and don’t celebrate communion this way, since I have to name somebody apparently.
          The worldview that sola fide proponents have is that God wants to reconcile us to himself and the means which he does so are more important than getting every single aspect of your life regulated for you.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Doing a ritual along with communion is idolatry?
            Not him but I would answer yes.
            God is not pleased with men calling themselves priest doing stupid rituals.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >God is not pleased with men calling themselves priest doing stupid rituals.
            I wouldnt say he's pleased either. I dont mean to imply that.

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    My orthodox priest said only one thing matters in the end, did you spend your life mourning your sins.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      What denom of ortho are you?
      Sadly I find that none of them have any any formal soteriology. It’s just appeal to mystery and answers that widely conflict this other priests.

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Do you actually worship the Almighty God with great adoration, bow down to him, fear him and love him above all else?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Yes, I am a Catholic.

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