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How can God be omniscient if the future is undetermined?

And if God knew the future, how wouldn't the future be fixed (by God's knowledge)?

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >He thinks there is linear cause and effect and linear time.
    OP, you moronic wienermongler, time is simply an illusion our brain presents to us because of our inability to perceive everything simultaneously. It does not exist to God, which is why His name of YHWH is a combination of the words for "was," "is", and "will be".

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      So your point is determinism?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Nope. Determinism implies a linear cause and effect, that you have a cascading series of effects which cause future events. The entire notion of future or past, cause and effect, is not actually real, simply a mass delusion produced by human frailty.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          So if past and future don't exist, how does God know of them? I'm getting confused.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            God doesn't "know". God Sees everything simultaneously as it happens in the true cosmic eternal instant.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sincerely I don't get how this answers my questions. Do you believe in free will?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Of course I do. That's how we exercise our decisions.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            And why do you say that the past and future (time, basically) don't exist? Because free will would imply an undetermined future, but you even say that the future doesn't exist.

            >generate a paradox.
            Of semantics yes. There's no such thing as omnipotence or omniscience they're fictive concepts

            No, the paradox of creating a stone that God couldn't lift.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >And why do you say that the past and future (time, basically) don't exist?
            Because they don't. Time does not exist in the higher reality that is God's perceptions. There is only a gestalt now encompassing forever.

            >Because free will would imply an undetermined future, but you even say that the future doesn't exist.
            Not at all. Free will implies an undetermined path of action. Which exists in that eternal instant. You've already made all your choices freely, as have I. We simply can't perceive that and impose an arbitrary and incorrect illusion of 'before' and 'after' to those experiences. But the choices made were all freely embarked upon.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But time exists as a reference of change in our experience. What's even you definition of time?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What's even you definition of time?
            Like I said back here

            >He thinks there is linear cause and effect and linear time.
            OP, you moronic wienermongler, time is simply an illusion our brain presents to us because of our inability to perceive everything simultaneously. It does not exist to God, which is why His name of YHWH is a combination of the words for "was," "is", and "will be".

            , time is an illusion that the brain creates for us because of the human inability to perceive everything that is happening simultaneously the way God does.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It seems to be only a matter of referential and definition. Just because everything happens simultaneously to God, it doesn't mean that it does to us.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But to imply a separateness of experience means there are in fact two distinct orders of operations, so to speak. That the actual actions within the universe are both simultaneously linearly separate and instantaneously omnipresent. And since God's perceptions are by definition infinite and perfect, they are the correct ones and ours are the incorrect ones. Ergo, fundamental reality is in fact simultaneous, but due to our weaknesses we cannot perceive it as such.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            How can there be free will if all actions are already known by God?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            They aren't. There is no such thing as "already known", because everything really happens at the same time. God simply sees everything as it's happening at once.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Just take "known" then

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I beg your pardon? I'm not sure what you mean.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If "already known" implies time for you, just consider "seen"

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because there's no connection between God's perceiving an action and preordaining that action. I throw a ball. You see me throw the ball. Does your watching me do it cause me to throw the ball somehow? All of those countless actions are taken by all actors, and God watches them happen, but He's not foreordaining any of it, those actions are all entered freely.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Does your watching me do it cause me to throw the ball somehow?
            Yes, because God is seeing everything the happens

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            that*

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            that*

            Sure, God sees everything that happens. But those things are happening independent of God's observation. It no more causes the thing observed to happen than my observation or lack thereof affects your actions.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            What is "free" to you?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            In the sense of free will? That independent actors determine their actions. To to back to the previous metaphor, they throw the ball, or not throw the ball, as they decide.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But God sees if their act of throwing the ball eternally

            >how wouldn't
            It just doesn't require that, whether determinism is true or not. Foreknowledge does not necessarily mean determinism.
            I know what will happen in a book despite not having written the book.

            If you disagree, the onus is on you to demonstrate your view

            If God knew the future, it means that the future would be like that eternally, so it would be fixed.
            >I know what will happen in a book despite not having written the book.
            Could you explain this analogy? Because a book is an example of a fixed story.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            sees their*

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            That's an unfounded presupposition by you. There's nothing intrinsic to the concept of foreknowledge that says foreknown events can't be free.

            A book is a fixed story but I, the reader, don't have any causal relationship with the events. Thus, foreknowledge does not mean determinism, at least by the knower.

            Your view requires that it be impossible for free events to exist logically prior to knowledge. Suppose I will either eat ham or turkey today. Suppose I have the sovereign capacity to freely make this choice, undetermined by outside actors. Finally, suppose god exists and foreknown every event. If I choose ham, god will have known that. If I choose turkey, god would have known that instead.
            Is this impossible?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Right... There seems to be no necessary causal relation. But I'm talking about about causal relation or determination of something by God, I'm just saying that if you know the story, >it can't be changed<. So if you analyzed an action considering that it is in the present, and God knew it from the past, how could it have been any different?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm NOT talking*

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            If it were different, god would have known otherwise. The knowing doesn't necessarily fix or determine the future event.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm supposing God already knew action X (fixing the example). How could the actor of X have taken any different action?

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            Are you reading my posts before replying

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, I thought you were talking about hypothetically changing the event in question and analyzing God's knowledge over it. I'm talking about a single event. God knows event X. The actor of X couldn't have made any different event, no?

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            No. There's nothing in this scenario that says the actor can't have done otherwise.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But God knowa that event X WILL happen.

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            And if Y was to happen, god would have known Y instead

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            So like, God's knowledge is mutable or something? I thought God's knowledge over the future was constant. It's weird to think about the knowledge of God changing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            God know I will freely chose X, and tells me so.
            Then I simply utilize me free will and choose Z

            No problem. It's not like God's knowledge fixes and determines my free choice.

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            God in this scenario either lied, gave you a conditional statement, or doesn't possess foreknowledge

            So like, God's knowledge is mutable or something? I thought God's knowledge over the future was constant. It's weird to think about the knowledge of God changing.

            Logical priority
            We're not thinking of a case where god decreed something, we're supposing a creature who has free will and god foreknows the free decision

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >God in this scenario either lied, gave you a conditional statement, or doesn't possess foreknowledge
            Look, you crying isn't going to make the problem go away. You're just changing the hypothetical.

            What exactly is it that fixes my will, such that I cannot do something else than what God said?

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            You're pretty impatient for someone so obtuse

            No more analogies from me. Why don't you demonstrate your position, no questions

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            lmao
            Did they teach you to talk like this in apologizer school? (rhetorical question, you don't have to answer)

            You can just go back and read my previous post without changing the hypothetical.
            That's is my position, that what I said is possible.

            Unless my story contained some kind of mistake. It seems like you should do some belief revision.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >God in this scenario either lied, gave you a conditional statement, or doesn't possess foreknowledge
            Congratulations! You've identified the problem with free will and omniscience.
            Wasn't expecting you to just concede like that but more power to you.

            Been a while since I've seen the olde Dirk obliterated this hard.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >we're supposing a creature who has free will and god foreknows the free decision
            What does "free" mean to you? I mean, God foreknowledge is something of the past to the future, and I don't understand how by "Logical priority" you mean that God's knowledge is not constant. I've heard this term before but it's complicated to me, sincerely.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >God in this scenario either lied, gave you a conditional statement, or doesn't possess foreknowledge
            Congratulations! You've identified the problem with free will and omniscience.
            Wasn't expecting you to just concede like that but more power to you.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >If I choose ham, god will have known that. If I choose turkey, god would have known that instead.
            You are presupposing the existence of free will to prove the existence of free will.
            If God foreknew that you would make a food analogy, then it was impossible for you to make any other kind of analogy. Otherwise God would be wrong, which is logically impossible.

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            I'm not presupposing it, I'm discussing possibility

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Is it possible for you to have chosen something else? For this your free choice would have to have been made before the existence of God, and since God is le uncaused cause or whatever that's also not possible.

          • 2 months ago
            Dirk

            Non sequitur
            >self existence is impossible
            Oh, you're just an idiot

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I'm discussing the possibility
            Ok, let's discuss that possibly
            >NON SEQUITUR!!! LOGICAL FALLACY ALERT!!!!!! WEEEOOOEEEOOOOEEEOOO

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            (Or "seen")

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >No, the paradox of creating a stone that God couldn't lift.
            That's what I'm addressing

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >cause and effect, is not actually real
          The absolute state of IQfytians.

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    By being omnipotent

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      But omnipotence means ability of doing any non-illogical thing

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >non-illogical
        If there's limits it isn't omnipotence by definition lol

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Depends on your definition

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not really. Omni means all

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah but you don't necessarily need to be literal and strict in the meaning of each part of the word. As you know that would generate a paradox.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >generate a paradox.
            Of semantics yes. There's no such thing as omnipotence or omniscience they're fictive concepts

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Illogical like the Trinity?

  3. 2 months ago
    Dirk

    >how wouldn't
    It just doesn't require that, whether determinism is true or not. Foreknowledge does not necessarily mean determinism.
    I know what will happen in a book despite not having written the book.

    If you disagree, the onus is on you to demonstrate your view

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    you are a simulation in the mind of god

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    God tells me something he knows I will do in the future (and doesn't lie)
    Am I free to do something else than what God said?

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Hey Dirk, how's it going big boy?

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    God is so fast that he reached the end from the beginning and we're all just living in his afterimage. Life is the trail of what he already did.

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Either god is evil because he created evil; he created us at least and can just save if he wanted regardless of what le evil free will makes us do; or God isn't all powerful, he needs us to express our true selves for him to save us, and that's not guaranteed to work because our "souls" may self destruct if we try to do so

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Forgot to mention that if the soul functions even when suppressed, it could be on a countdown to self destruct at some point after birth, which may happen within one's lifetime

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