How can it not be true that consciousness on an organismal basis has a hard beginning?

How can it not be true that consciousness on an organismal basis has a “hard beginning”? Doesn’t nature abhor this sort of discontinuity, except in quantum?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Barkon

    There's no quick way around it unless by teaching or image production heat.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Barkon

    I must of conceived millions of images per second at some point. I've reached a great slow.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Barkon

      In a harshest hell life mode, you're destined to get these wise people in hell hats spending lots of time increasing intellect through heat and projection in effort to protect themselves from man's wrath and they'll spend years. I am way passed the maxth of that, as I've got the starry hell hat from an additional harshest hell that I've gained through a build in mind. It depends what gears you have, plus my situation and mind is so abstracted it's doubling or even tripling the effect. I have, -at some point- hit above producing a million images per second. It really is a lot of passive productive power. Maybe not though. I can't tell if my sense is true or false but my mind says yes, more but not much much more.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Barkon

        I've got like this wing mirror that works passively or I can look forward and it works or directly look at it that then opens my view to an all encompassing mind view.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >except in quantum?
    Well, consciousness is quantum.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Barkon

      Agreed. I have just realized it's a contraption and what I truly know.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    isn't it just electricity?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That makes sense

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Well, no, it’s not “just” electricity, there is a subjectivity.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Quantum time evolution is continuous and smooth, you are probably referring to an outdated description of "measurements" and "collapse", but regardless of the interpretation of QM these are apparent collapses due to an artificial separation of a non-quantum observer and a quantum system
    Anyway, discontinuities happen all the time in nature. Consider the phase transition from liquid water to steam. As we increase the temperature, the density of liquid water doesn't change at all, then suddenly at the critical temperature it becomes 1000 times less dense
    Phase transitions in general demonstrate how physics gives rise to hard beginnings
    We need a better idea of what consciousness is before we can evaluate whether it has a discrete beginning
    Perhaps conciousness is like a field throughout space, and having it "turn on" to the sense we have of it now was a collective phase transition akin to water->steam

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      ELI5

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Phase transitions - like water turning to ice, or water turning into steam, represent an enormous quantitative and qualitative change in a system that happens suddenly as we change a parameter
        This is a common type of "hard beginning" that we observe in nature and describe with physics

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Macro phase changes are still continuous physically.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Not in thermodynamics. Equilibrium density as a function of temperature is discontinuous for liquid-gas transition
            In a 1st order transition, first derivatives of the partition function are discontinuous, etc
            If you mean the statistical mechanical description, in which the discontinuity arises from summing an infinite number of analytic functions (which would be analytic for any finite sum e.g. a finite universe), that technically supports your argument but also shows that we don't have enough precision to distinguish between smooth vs non-smooth in the natural world

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            > If you mean the statistical mechanical description … that technically supports your argument
            Yeah
            > also shows that we don't have enough precision to distinguish between smooth vs non-smooth in the natural world
            I guess this is the part that’s lost on me… it means?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Two different functions on [0,1], one discontinuous one smooth
            f(x) = piecewise: if x < 1, f(x) = 0, f(1) = 1
            g(x) = x^{10^{100}}
            We don't have enough precision in the physical universe to distinguish between these functions
            But mathematically, one is discontinuous and the other is infinitely many times differentiable
            So if you are going to invoke the finiteness of the universe to reject the phase transition explanation of natural discontinuity, then by the same logic the notion of smoothness has no meaning in a finite universe (finite sets are discrete, measurement precision will never establish anything like a continuum R^3, etc)

            So to the point, what we care about are *apparent* discontinuities (appearing discontinuous to our measurements), and phase transitions are an example of such a natural apparent discontinuity

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Oh ok. Do you think the electricity involved in consciousness involves such a phase change?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Conciousness exists on many qualitatively different levels. I would expect that at least some of these separations are analogous to phase transitions.
            Here is a basic example of a phase transition in the connectivity of a network, sometimes called Erdos-Renyi random graphs
            We have N vertices, and every pair of vertices is randomly connected with probability p (a positive number)
            When N is large and p is small, the graph will almost always consist of multiple disconnected components
            Then at some critical value p = p_c the graph will almost always be connected
            Almost always is the technical meaning as N -> infinity (with probability 1 the graph is connected / disconnected)
            Here are some finite examples with N = 100 vertices and p as shown.
            When p is large enough the whole graph suddenly becomes connected, and maybe this is like "turning on" a new level of consciousness

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It makes sense that consciousness would be something like that yeah. That’s a good idea you should research it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            https://i.imgur.com/FJ934Tx.png

            Conciousness exists on many qualitatively different levels. I would expect that at least some of these separations are analogous to phase transitions.
            Here is a basic example of a phase transition in the connectivity of a network, sometimes called Erdos-Renyi random graphs
            We have N vertices, and every pair of vertices is randomly connected with probability p (a positive number)
            When N is large and p is small, the graph will almost always consist of multiple disconnected components
            Then at some critical value p = p_c the graph will almost always be connected
            Almost always is the technical meaning as N -> infinity (with probability 1 the graph is connected / disconnected)
            Here are some finite examples with N = 100 vertices and p as shown.
            When p is large enough the whole graph suddenly becomes connected, and maybe this is like "turning on" a new level of consciousness

            good posts

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