How can the equation of the elect and the wealth be biblically justified?

How can the equation of the elect and the wealth be biblically justified?

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What do you mean?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There's the thesis in some Reformed branches of Christianity that one can tell the elect and the doomed by the former being materially successful here on the Earth. How justified is it and what verses can be actually used for its justification, something like the parable of talents?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        No one believes that.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Calvinists? Evangelicals?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          See [...]
          This is a strawman

          No

          Semi-true. No actual learned person does, but your average person in Calvinist societies back then did project their own values and idealized image on the elect, which included worldly shit like wealth and social status. See

          OP what you're just describing here is just an informal vulgar layman belief based on that doctrine. I'm not denying that it exist(ed) and was widespread, but no serious Calvinist theologian thinks that material wealth and being of the elect is correlated since it doesn't have any sort of scriptural justification.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Source?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's very implicitly and also explicitly obvious in many documents written from the 17th to the 19th centuries that are related to poverty and whatnot. Max Weber also mentions it.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So no source

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Puritans and Quakers were both anti-luxury.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            And evangelists can have wives, it doesn't make it justifiable

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Because you're asking for the equivalent of a source for whether people used to wear underwear back then or not.
            Like where the frick do I even start or point you towards?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The closest I can think of is in Exodus and Leviticus (I think), and also in Proverbs that dutiful servants of God can and will be rewarded materially, but they will be judged on how they make use of it, and it should not be their primary motivation

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The parable of the talents is about the grace each one gets and how we put it to work, not money.
        Free styling the bible instead of inheriting the age old interpretations of the Church is a mistake.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        See

        No one believes that.

        This is a strawman

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Who believes that?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      he's talking about Max Weber's the Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Kinda yeah but Weber says the accumulation of wealth here is a consequence of their mindset not that it is an actual theological thing as I hear time to time.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The children of God are self evidently of divine origin but that does not necessarily equate to material wealth since such treasures of the earth grant no standing in the Kingdom of Heaven.

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Doesn't Jesus say for a young rich guy to abandon all his wealth, that the greatest treasure would be in heaven? Then, the guy declines, and He says that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"? Make that what you will, but I think its clear the biblical position on wealth.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
      >26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
      It has the same meaning as the verses about an insult being a murder and a lustful sight a adultery i.e. allegory on that there's no salvation by work.

      The closest I can think of is in Exodus and Leviticus (I think), and also in Proverbs that dutiful servants of God can and will be rewarded materially, but they will be judged on how they make use of it, and it should not be their primary motivation

      I meant the New Testament specifically, having wealth is indeed an important thing under the Mosaic law.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        New life in Christ calls for exactly that, a new life. If you want to be one of the elect you are called to live in poverty. The clergy have lost sight of this in recent times by routinely driving nicer cars, and living in nicer houses than most in their parish. I don't disagree with priests being given vehicles by the Church, but they should be more modest. The larger houses are also an issue of contention but priests at least continue to keep the sacrament of sanctuary, and they will shelter anyone under unjust persecution if they ask. They even let the homeless sleep in the church for a while if the shelters are overwhelmed

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >life. If you want to be one of the elect you are called to live in poverty
          No you aren't

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nobody in the Church owns anything personally. It's all property of the Church

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But he said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Blessed are you who are poor for yours is the kingdom of heaven.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        New life in Christ calls for exactly that, a new life. If you want to be one of the elect you are called to live in poverty. The clergy have lost sight of this in recent times by routinely driving nicer cars, and living in nicer houses than most in their parish. I don't disagree with priests being given vehicles by the Church, but they should be more modest. The larger houses are also an issue of contention but priests at least continue to keep the sacrament of sanctuary, and they will shelter anyone under unjust persecution if they ask. They even let the homeless sleep in the church for a while if the shelters are overwhelmed

        It's important to note that clergy still, legally, own nothing. The clothes on their backs and the food in their bellies is property of the Church. If you leave the clergy, you leave with nothing. This is technically poverty yes, but it can seem dishonest in practice when the priest drives a brand new Mercedes Benz and the parish drive old Volkswagens and Renaults

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP what you're just describing here is just an informal vulgar layman belief based on that doctrine. I'm not denying that it exist(ed) and was widespread, but no serious Calvinist theologian thinks that material wealth and being of the elect is correlated since it doesn't have any sort of scriptural justification.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      [...]
      Semi-true. No actual learned person does, but your average person in Calvinist societies back then did project their own values and idealized image on the elect, which included worldly shit like wealth and social status. See [...]

      So it's over and Calvinism doesn't really suggest a new, non-ressentiment interpretation of Christianity and still holds the old doctrine there?

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The thing I was talking about was the "prosperity theology" all along, why didn't any of you worthless morons just said this was the thing? Thread is closed.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Prosperity theology is bullshit, why don't you just spit out what's on your mind, pal?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >is bullshit
        Then why the only church that grows is the one that holds it, exactly as it would be according to this theology?

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's just belief manifestation.
          It has nothing to do with the gospel, it's technically a form of magic/ witchcraft.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Not really. God made a covenant with the israelites in which He promised them not only the land but also any assistance they need be it in war or in harvest as far as they fulfill the law He set for them. Now, the law was nullified yet nothing suggests some different rules about the divine assistance were applied.

            Who believes that?

            Most of the Pentecostals and the Charismatics. I.e. THE Protestants

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >God made a covenant with the israelites
            Yeah and then Jesus came and told his followers to give their possessiins to the poor and have nothing more than a walking stick and one change of clothing.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >hurr durr I lack reading comprehension skills
            Oh then you're just doomed moron. See

            >25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
            >26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
            It has the same meaning as the verses about an insult being a murder and a lustful sight a adultery i.e. allegory on that there's no salvation by work.
            [...]
            I meant the New Testament specifically, having wealth is indeed an important thing under the Mosaic law.

            .

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's literally the Law of Attraction.
            Prosperity theology has NOTHING to do with Jesus.
            It's witchcraft, plain and simple.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >got explained why and how it works
            >lol no it just doesnt
            See

            >hurr durr I lack reading comprehension skills
            Oh then you're just doomed moron. See [...].

            .

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You're quite the quoter!
            See

            So no source

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I said I have just found it's not from the Calvinists but from the Charismatics, idk about what you are rambling.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >ie THE Protestants
            How? Pentecostals and charismatics are the least connected to the reformation, behind cults like Mormons. The largest charismatic group is the catholic charismatic renewal.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Because Protestants are all who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox and the Charismatics are by far (by far, twice) the largest in numbers group of such.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Protestants are all who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox
            False

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Cope.

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