How would Western Europe be different if the Ottomans never expanded into Europe?

Specifically I'm only interested in how Western Europe would be different if this never happened - especially considering politics, religion, the general mindset people had, and all of that. For the sake of this thought experiment let's say that the Byzantines probably keep something like their 1340 borders, are relatively weak with Western Europe, trade and all of that but are otherwise irrelevant for most westerners. Also it goes without saying that the whole "Greek scholars" thing is a pop history meme and the Renaissance did not happen because of Byzantine refugees.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    *are relatively weak with Western Europe, have trade and all of that, but are otherwise irrelevant for most westerners

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    What really matters is who controls the trade routes between Asia and the Mediterranean. Is it a Western-friendly power?

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I think the Byzantine-Bulgarian conflict would become the longest running conflict between two governments.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Charles V would have crushed the Reformation instead of trying to compromise

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      But it would’ve still happened differently, no? The printing press was pretty bad for the Church and this happened separately in Switzerland as well.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    For one it wouldn't be a shithole, most Balkan nations were a century+ ahead of the Ottomans development wise

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Of course but I'm mainly interested in Western Europe because there would be too many factors to account for with the Balkans and I wouldn't find them all that interesting.

      at one point the mongols took all Ottoman territory outside of europe. So there would be no ottomans post mongol invasion. Yes this was just for a moment, but if you are dead for a moment well thats the end. being able to retreat beyond the bosphorus even for a small period of time gave the ottomans the chance to regroup. Also made the ottomans a purely euro state for a moment.

      Yeah it's less about Ottoman invincibility and more that they were able to recover and snowball. The westerners definitely could've destroyed the Ottomans during a window of opportunity, saving Byzantium and bringing the Balkans as a whole under their hegemony.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Saving Byzantium and bringing the Balkans as a whole under their hegemony
        Western Europe was a shithole well into mid-modernity and benefited immensely from the Ottoman invasion and conquest of the peninsula, not to mention that all "Western attempts" against the Ottomans were laughable failures.

        This part of Europe was wealthier than Anatolia between the 1100s and the 1500s, and Anatolia was one of the wealthiest parts of the known world from the beginning of history.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          You guys and the laughable inferiority complex that you have is pretty annoying. You should've never gotten access to electricity, much less the internet.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Western Europe was a shithole well into mid-modernity
          lmao
          Stop posting.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    at one point the mongols took all Ottoman territory outside of europe. So there would be no ottomans post mongol invasion. Yes this was just for a moment, but if you are dead for a moment well thats the end. being able to retreat beyond the bosphorus even for a small period of time gave the ottomans the chance to regroup. Also made the ottomans a purely euro state for a moment.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Western Europe would be rather behind Southeastern Europe by all parameters.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Lol what kind of nationalist Balkan cope is this? The West was already ahead of you guys in the 12th century, come on.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        You guys and the laughable inferiority complex that you have is pretty annoying. You should've never gotten access to electricity, much less the internet.

        >proceeds to run his delusional mouth even when presented with proof
        This is the problem with Westerners, you live in a gilded cage and refuse to accept reality because you think GDP based on dystopian amounts of debt refutes all of written history + all you've written is obvious projection.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah Paris, Venice, and Ghent were dystopian debt-ridden shitholes. They were truly nothing compared to the glories of Ras or Debrec.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Venice is Southern Europe, whereas Paris and Ghent, were, and still are, irredeemable shitholes.

            >Nothing compared to the glories of Ras
            Quite right, but in this particular context, Dubrovnik, Srebrenica, and Novo Brdo are more important because the latter two were one of the preeminent centers of the production of silver for the majority of Medieval Europe, not to mention that for an alleged "civilization", you never developed a Western-specific literary and religious language, but always relied on Latin for legitimacy, which is downright pathetic since you're not just claiming to be a stand-alone civilization, but THE civilization.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Massive cope, mudslime filled Paris is dystopian but your average 25% Turk Bulgarian city is magically awesome lol

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            There are no Turks left in Bulgaria, whereas Muslims are the fastest-growing demography in all of Western and Northern Europe.

            No one gives a frick about srebrenica other than its notoriety for being the site of one of the worst massacres in the most recent balkanoid chimpout lol, haven't you got some cigarettes to smuggle or cousins to sell off to andrew tate stejpan

            Epic memes from Reddit don't change the fact that Western Europe was behind Southeastern Europe before the Age of Discovery and that the Ottoman Conquest of the peninsula made it possible for Western Europe to get ahead, there's a reason why Western and Central European powers were allied to the Ottomans for long periods in history. Even today, much of Western "Realpolitik" requires Turkish support to work.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >There are no Turks left in Bulgaria
            There are over half a million actually

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No one gives a frick about srebrenica other than its notoriety for being the site of one of the worst massacres in the most recent balkanoid chimpout lol, haven't you got some cigarettes to smuggle or cousins to sell off to andrew tate stejpan

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