I dont know for sure if God exists or not.

I don’t know for sure if God exists or not. But I think Dostoevsky was right that if God does not exist then everything is permitted. People can seethe and cope and try and account for morality without God but it’s pointless. If God doesn’t exist then at best you can say morality is a code we developed and followed to survive collectively as a species, but that’s it.

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Chud Anon

    >If God doesn’t exist then at best you can say morality is a code we developed and followed to survive collectively as a species

    So is religion

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Morality is a fundamentally religious concept and you shouldn't take atheists who appropriate this word because in doing so they change the definition of it to "whatever I approve of." "Subjective morality" is oxymoronic.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Morality is a cultural thing, along with some universal human patterns from instinct shared with other social mammals especially primates.
      Also I’d like to point out that basically none of you are actually Christian and no one believes you actually devote your life to helping the poor and sick, while cherrypicking which dictated rules you follow and which you don’t.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If god exists, everything is still permitted.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/WXR7RFy.jpg

      I don’t know for sure if God exists or not. But I think Dostoevsky was right that if God does not exist then everything is permitted. People can seethe and cope and try and account for morality without God but it’s pointless. If God doesn’t exist then at best you can say morality is a code we developed and followed to survive collectively as a species, but that’s it.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        If god does not exist, everything is permitted, including the emergence of the existence of god.
        And god can permit everything, including one's own non-existence.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >If God doesn’t exist then at best you can say morality is a code we developed and followed to survive collectively as a species
    What's wrong with saying that?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nothing, but you can’t say it’s objective.

      Can you believe that a guy posting Pepe drawings on IQfy has zero concept of acting on empathy, basic pro-social normal human behavior or having a conscience?
      You never know what types of opinions you’re going to see on this website, what a diverse community.

      Coping hard. At best you can say empathy is just an evolutionary adaptation that promotes pro-social behavior and further increases chance of survival. Same goes for human conscience.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >At best you can say empathy is just an evolutionary adaptation that promotes pro-social behavior and further increases chance of survival. Same goes for human conscience.
        Yes correct, that’s what morality is. A social mechanism to form and maintain groups of cooperative individuals

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Okay, so why ought we act pro-socially?
          >because it increases the chance of survival of our species
          Why ought we increase our chance of survival?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You should WANT to due to your brain and emotional states working correctly.
            The fact that you aren’t internally motivated to act in a pro-social manner reveals a likely neurological or psychological disorder.
            This is why I made my original post, you’re a guy posting frog drawings on IQfy who struggles to understand why people care about others or act normal. You might as well be a Redditor posting about Star Wars, full blown stereotype

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You should WANT to
            Nope. I’m a full-blown psychopath who enjoys inflicting suffering on others, particularly torturing children. Now by what standard can you say I’m acting immorally?
            >due to your brain and emotional states working correctly.
            Correctly? Is that a moral statement? I didn’t choose to be born a Psychopath. It’s out of my control. Can you still say it’s immoral for me to torture children?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I realize you’re a maladjusted degenerate, that’s why we have laws including defense laws. You’re an immoral person, you can’t be fixed, you need to be watched, controlled and of course punished by the law, employers and individuals in their own appropriate ways if you act on your immoral urges.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You’re an immoral person
            By what standard?
            >You're increasing anti-social behavior which is bad for human survival
            Why ought I engage in pro-social behavior that maximizes human survival?
            >You should want to
            Notice how in your previous when I asked why I should act pro-socially, you just said that I should want to. Not that I should act pro-socially, but I should just want to. But as we’ve established I’m a psychopath and don’t want to. Now how can you say it’s immoral for me to firebomb a maternity ward?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The fact that you don’t want to is due to the fact that you do in fact have an anti-social personality disorder along with your desire to do the most fricked up things imaginable.
            You are unfixable, you’re a bad person, it’s no surprise you don’t get why people want to be good.
            Humanity unfortunately has enemies and you’re one of them.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >The fact that you don’t want to is due to the fact that you do in fact have an anti-social personality disorder along with your desire to do the most fricked up things imaginable.
            Okay, and?
            >You are unfixable, you’re a bad person,
            By what standard? Don’t dodge the question. Answer me.
            >it’s no surprise you don’t get why people want to be good.
            It’s not about why I’d want to do good. It’s why I OUGHT to do good. That’s what morality is.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Good people aren’t good because they’re forced to. They do good things because they WANT to.
            You don’t, so society will force you or lock you in a cage like the pathetic problem animal you are. Judging by the insanity you’ve said so far the law will even decide to put you down like a dog that can’t behave is the best course of action for society.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Your outside the human norms. We agree based on forms of consensus, and then apply with force or fines. No God needed.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Because that's what humans naturally do? Like I don't see how you can't understand that atheists get that everything from love to hate are just patterns running on a biological machine. But that's zero reason to say they have no value or rebel against them. Just because morality isn't based on a magic sky man, doesn't mean it has less value.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Because that's what humans naturally do?
            >We ought to do X because we naturally do X
            Okay? So why OUGHT we do it? This is the is-ought gap. Why ought we strive for the survival of our species through pro-social behavior? You can’t just say we ought to because that’s what we naturally do.

            Your outside the human norms. We agree based on forms of consensus, and then apply with force or fines. No God needed.

            So that’s it? I broke rules that were decided and enforced by human consensus? Do these rules come from any moral principles or are they just a kind of social technology that’s advantageous for survival?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's all just electricity running through brain matter, that's the beginning and end. I don't understand why this is a hard concept to understand. There are rewards and punishments built in, and then society built by these basic human behaviors reinforce the basic human rules in more advanced ways. There is no next, or ought. Do you enjoy being warm VS being cold? Awesome come join society.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Members of a group who dont wanna survive tends....not survive anon. If you dont care about what happens to you then its a sign of mental illness.

            >You should WANT to
            Nope. I’m a full-blown psychopath who enjoys inflicting suffering on others, particularly torturing children. Now by what standard can you say I’m acting immorally?
            >due to your brain and emotional states working correctly.
            Correctly? Is that a moral statement? I didn’t choose to be born a Psychopath. It’s out of my control. Can you still say it’s immoral for me to torture children?

            Anon people like that get filtered out, those types of people are not likeable or wanted in a group. Im not really sure what you are arguing for here, if someone goes around murdering random people nowdays they go to prison, in the older days some mob would just frick them up and that behavior ended right there.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >"Okay but why?"
            No rational argument ever changed human behaviour. If it had, evil would have been eradicated long ago. Instead of that, rational argument just makes you go "but why" ad infinitum while life around you goes on and as soon as you feel hungry, thirsty or tired, you will join it again.
            Life doesn't begin with a rational argument. Life just is.
            You don't justify trees, you don't justify rocks, you don't justify life.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Rational arguments do work but rationality isn’t the root cause of human behavior. We do things or don’t do things because of motivation, which is downstream of emotion.
            If you keep asking “why” someone does or feels like they should do something, an emotion is always at the bottom, even if the scaffolding and panels and tiles and scaffolding are logic, emotion is the foundation everything else is built on

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I think rational arguments merely clarify and elaborate why this and why that of already existing world. Some arguments are wrong but those which are right merely concur to what the world already said by existing.
            I agree that emotions are the root cause of motivation and moral behaviour.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >you can’t say it’s objective.
        I literally can. "It's objective. It's magic floaty Neo-Platonist bullshit forms"
        Does it matter?

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Can you believe that a guy posting Pepe drawings on IQfy has zero concept of acting on empathy, basic pro-social normal human behavior or having a conscience?
    You never know what types of opinions you’re going to see on this website, what a diverse community.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >morality is a code we developed and followed to survive collectively as a species
    I'm okay with that.

    But what you're telling me is that if you stopped believing in God you would go around and kill people because why not

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >But what you're telling me is that if you stopped believing in God you would go around and kill people because why not
      I wouldn’t kill people because I feel sympathy for people and would face legal consequences for killing people. But those are descriptive reasons. They aren’t prescriptive reasons why I shouldn’t kill.

      I’m not sure if God exists. If I found out he didn’t exist then I would either have to abandon belief in right and wrong or find someway to account for morality without God. But I find the former to be more plausible than the latter.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >why OUGHT I eat cooked and seasoned food instead of shit from public toilets?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Not an argument. I get it, shit is disgusting and all. But it’s not the same as a moral ought. If someone says they’d prefer to steal something from a store instead of paying for it, you would argue they ought not to do so for X, Y, and Z reasons. If someone said they preferred eating shit over gourmet food, how can you even argue with them at that point? Morality is different. Right and wrong exist apart from personal preferences.

          Good people aren’t good because they’re forced to. They do good things because they WANT to.
          You don’t, so society will force you or lock you in a cage like the pathetic problem animal you are. Judging by the insanity you’ve said so far the law will even decide to put you down like a dog that can’t behave is the best course of action for society.

          It’s not about being forced to do X over Y. It’s about why I OUGHT to do X over Y. Ought implies can. If you can’t choose to do X, then there’s no reason to morally condemn someone for not doing X. If I’m a psychopath incapable of wanting to act pro-socially, then it what sense can you even say it’s immoral to not want to act pro-socially?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Anyways I’m going to bed now. I’ll see if this is still up in eight hours.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It’s not about being forced to do X over Y. It’s about why I OUGHT to do X over
            Needing an OUGHT so desperately doesn’t make sense if people want to do that thing in the first place. Why does this need to be explained to you?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            But as we’ve established, I don’t want to not torture children because I’m a psychopath. So should I still ought not to torture children?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah dumbass we will lock you up in a cage.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So why ought I not torture children? Just because there will be social and legal consequences?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That’s right psycho, welcome to reality

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If God does not exist then everything is permitted
    If God exists, then everything is permitted
    The only moral agent in this scenario is you to pick what you choose to do.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >But I think Dostoevsky was right that if God does not exist then everything is permitted.
    When statistical probability reaches infinity, anything becomes possible, yes. Everything is permitted. Boltzmann brains included.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >If God doesn’t exist then at best you can say morality is a code we developed and followed to survive collectively as a species, but that’s it.
    "What Freud calls the organism’s ‘own path to death’ is a security hallucination, screening out death’s path through the organism. ‘[T]he organism wishes to die only in its own fashion’, he writes, as if death were specifiable, privatizable, subordinate to a reproductive order, assimilable to secondary-process temporality, and psychoanalytically comprehensible as a definitively bound trauma.26 But something is climbing out of the machinic unconscious and onto the screen, as if the end itself were awakening. The end of the global market-place.
    Cyberspace.
    Here it comes.
    The terminal social signal blotted out by technofrick buzz from the desiring-machines. So much positive feedback fast-forward that speed converges with itself on the event horizon of an artificial time-extinction.
    Suddenly it’s everywhere: a virtual envelopment by recyclones, voodoo economics, neo-nightmares, death-trips, skin-swaps, teraflops, Wintermute-wasted Turing-cops, sensitive silicon, socket-head subversion, polymorphic hybridizations, descending data-storms, and cyborg catwomen stalking amongst the screens. Zaibatsus flip into sentience as the market melts to automatism, politics is cryogenized and dumped into the liquid-helium meat-store, drugs migrate onto neurosoft viruses, and immunity is grated-open against jagged reefs of feral AI explosion, Kali culture, digital dance-dependency, black shamanism epidemic, and schizolupic break-outs from the bin."

    "Life is being phased-out into something new, and if we think this can be stopped we are even more stupid than we seem.
    How would it feel to be smuggled back out of the future in order to subvert its antecedent conditions? To be a cyberguerrilla, hidden in human camouflage so advanced that even one’s software was part of the disguise? Exactly like this?"

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      TLDR?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Funny fast filosopher

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why do you care about these moral oughts so much?

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nah. If God exists, then everything is allowed. Why not kill a person if God can resurrect them and even turn back time and make it so that the murder never happened? In the presence of the almighty, nothing you choose to do matters.

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Morality is just our instincts.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This is just a more elaborate version of "If my parents don't smack me then I'm allowed to do whatever I want!". Like yeah I guess, until someone beats the shit out of you for a transgression.

    Ultimately, morality is born from behaviour, cognition, feeling. You feel bad about something, you form an opinion from that feeling, you act based on the opinion. Cultures have typical "feelings" based on the people within them, hence moral codes. You can claim this is from God or whatever, and maybe you'd be right, but regardless of whether there is a literal omniscient deity coding and threading the fabrics of this reality or not, this is the process by which morality is born. It isn't objective, that's why cultures (nations) have gone to war, are going to war, and will go to war. This subjectivity is what it means to be human.
    >But if it's not objective, it's not morality!
    Po-ta-to, po-tah-to.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Like yeah I guess, until someone beats the shit out of you for a transgression.
      Melian commissioners: ‘And how, pray, could it turn out as good for us to serve as for you to rule?’
      Athenian envoys: ‘Because you would have the advantage of submitting before suffering the worst, and we should gain by not destroying you.’
      Melian commissioners: ‘So that you would not consent to our being neutral, friends instead of enemies, but allies of neither side.’
      Athenian envoys: ‘No; for your hostility cannot so much hurt us as your friendship will be an argument to our subjects of our weakness, and your enmity of our power.’
      <...>
      Melian commissioners: ‘<...>. How can you avoid making enemies of all existing neutrals who shall look at our case and conclude from it that one day or another you will attack them? And what is this but to make greater the enemies that you have already, and to force others to become so who would otherwise have never thought of it?’
      Athenian envoys: ‘Why, the fact is that continentals generally give us but little alarm; the liberty which they enjoy will long prevent their taking precautions against us; it is rather islanders like yourselves, outside our empire, and subjects smarting under the yoke, who would be the most likely to take a rash step and lead themselves and us into obvious danger.’
      Melian commissioners: ‘Well then, if you risk so much to retain your empire, and your subjects to get rid of it, it were surely great baseness and cowardice in us who are still free not to try everything that can be tried, before submitting to your yoke.’
      Athenian envoys: ‘Not if you are well advised, the contest not being an equal one, with honor as the prize and shame as the penalty, but a question of self-preservation and of not resisting those who are far stronger than you are.’

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Radiochan

    that still begs the question of which god and what concept of god

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      When a meteor strikes the earth, Gnon is the meteor
      When bacteria become immune to antibiotics, Gnon is adaptation
      When a new paradigm causes a nonlinear increase in wealth, Gnon is capital
      When you bankrupt yourself trying to feed the whole world, Gnon is the ravenous horde

      Gnon is Malthusian limits
      Gnon is climate change
      Gnon is cold Gnon is brutal
      Gnon is patient Gnon is unforgiving
      Gnon is never merciful
      Gnon is just but his justice demands perfection.

      When you push too far against the limits of nature, Gnon sees your hubris, and it is delicious to him, so he devours you. That’s the god that I believe in.

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You are correct. You can do anything. All these weak, conformist geeks babbling about empathy are deluded.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Enjoy getting your ass ravaged in prison

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >but that’s it.
    that’s it?

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >that's it
    That's plenty.
    If you want to protect your community from criminals you have to do it yourself with similar minded people and put systems in place while fighting against the cancerous growth of corruption within said systems before it spreads and takes over.
    Society is a super-organism formed by humans coming together and is subject to similar problematics.
    Thus it means there is no god but we can make one, one pursuing our best interests, by making the most optimal social system we can manage to form.
    All of those thing require efforts and will result in conflicts. If you truly have convictions then you shall actively be seeking for it.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >I don’t know for sure if God exists or not. But I think Dostoevsky was right that if God does not exist then everything is permitted.
    If god doesn't exist, who permitted everything?
    The problem with all these moral outrage arguments is that you posture as if you're doing away with morality, but what you're really doing is taking the framework of religious morality, taking all the things from the "ought not" category and putting them into the "ought" category. You should be thinking along the lines of doing away with the "ought" and "ought not" categories altogether.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Aside from the fact that I want to do good things and don’t want to do bad things, I would like to keep my friends, job, relationships and freedom. Some of you talk as if you’re a lonely NEET with no goals and so is everyone else

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You're missing my point - there's no "ought" in what you just described. The majority of people want what you want, and our behavior is governed by conditionals like "if you want to keep your friends, you should do XYZ". People only want to preserve the "ought" so that they can tell others things like "you objectively ought not murder", but what's the value in that, really? We can get by perfectly fine by simply saying "I don't want you to murder, and neither do all these other people. If you murder, there will be consequences.".

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >if God does not exist then everything is permitted
    Name me one moral action you think has never been permitted by any religion. I'll wait.

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    "If there is a God, then anything is permitted." - Zizek
    Evidence: all the horrid things that were done to people "in God's name" ever.

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >morality is a code
    That's why I loved Dexter when I was in agnostic phase.

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You can't develop a morality without a higher authority

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Therefore god is immoral unless he worships god2

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That’s weird because it happens all the time, including those of you who claim to be Christian but cherry-pick which rules you actually care about and follow

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >If God doesn't exist what's to keep me from raping and murdering children?
    Most sane Christian

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