Is a doctrine of apokatastasis or universal salvation correct from a christian point of view?

Is a doctrine of apokatastasis or universal salvation correct from a christian point of view? It seems illogical that either an omnibenevolent God would choose to not extend grace to whoever chooses to repent or that anyone would choose to live in sin on an eternal timespan.

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Is a doctrine of apokatastasis or universal salvation correct from a christian point of view?
    No. Clearly Jesus did not intend salvation for the dogs but who exactly the dogs are is still a question of much debate. It seems obvious to the honest that it is a racial group who Jesus was meant for, the racial group who were considered to be descendants of Adam.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      wot

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    bumo

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Salvation is conditional on believing in, in other words trusting in, in other words accepting* Jesus Christ’s full propitiation and atonement for all your sins past present and future.

    Substituting Jesus even partially with something else like your own works will result in eternal damnation (you will be judged* by your works). Trusting in Jesus results in being judged according to Jesus’ works; you are counted righteous on judgement day as Jesus is counted righteous, in his name.

    Jesus Christ, being God, was able to make an infinite atonement for all time and for all who believe. You are eternally sealed by the Holy Ghost at the moment you believe unto salvation. Nothing can separate you from God’s love at the point

    Salvation is a “free gift” extended to all men but everyone has free will to either outright reject it or to substitute it.
    Satan is the best example of someone who simply rejected it. Why? Because even in eternity he could not BE God, so rejection satiated his pride.
    It’s rare for living people to outright reject God. But these people are out there. “Reprobates”. Haters of God. Marked by being “full of all unrighteousness. They are given to unnatural sins (there are sins which come from our nature and ones from outside it) like homosexuality, bestiality, serial killers, child molesters, psychopaths. For these people there is no hope of salvation because they, of their heart and volition, will never* turn to God in faith.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      How can your eternal fate being dependent on a decision you make in a finite life dependent on a myriad of contingent factors be just? Forget the edge cases like babies and tribal people, what if two persons each require x exposure to the gospel in order to make the decision to accept christ, but one receives x-1 exposure while the other receives x+1 over the course of their life? In this case each would have made the same choice under the same circumstances but due to factors outside their control one will suffer forever while the other won't.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Are you asking how could God be just?
        A foolish question
        But, the Bible teaches that the Holy Ghost works in every persons life to draw them to Jesus Christ.
        Yes, it is ON the tribal to realize his tribe of cannibals is evil (the fact that some tribes are cannibals and some aren’t shows that is up to human choice)
        It’s on YOU to realize the inconsistency of the cultural religion imposed on you.
        In Jesus’ life, many israelites rejected him because there were “raised” to be Pharisees or “raised” some other way in accordance with their culture; and there were many israelites who chose* to overcome their cultural circumstances and believe on Christ.

        Secondly. How MUCH someone needed to know about God to be saved may have been different depending on circumstance (but this is conjecture)
        For example, the Bible says that historically, God first revealed himself only by the name “God Almighty”, and then later “Jehovah” (“I am that I am”) and now we have his Son, Jesus Christ AND the mode of his atonement fully revealed to us.
        It’s not impossible for rare individuals in remote locales to have believed on “God Almighty” but as for now and today, people are compelled by the Holy Ghost to seek Jesus Christ, and Christians are compelled to bring Jesus Christ to them.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Are you asking how could God be just?
          >A foolish question
          I'm asking how you reconcile your soteriology with God being just
          >Yes, it is ON the tribal to realize his tribe of cannibals is evil (the fact that some tribes are cannibals and some aren’t shows that is up to human choice)
          >Secondly. How MUCH someone needed to know about God to be saved may have been different depending on circumstance (but this is conjecture)
          Cool, so we acknowledge people are saved through a mutual cooperation between a person's free will and God's grace. But that then raises the question, if God is omnipotent, why He would not just extend His grace far enough that we would all choose to be saved, either in this life or the next

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            We would not all choose to be saved
            That’s why I brought up Satan
            Some peoples pride outweighs their desire to be saved
            Alternatively, they stand in judgment OF God for whatever reason and thus won’t believe and be saved.
            You can stand in judgment of God for creating beings with free will but as it stands this is reality.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >We would not all choose to be saved
            Because not everyone is convinced that to be saved they have to worship your god who killed himself in order to save you from himself. It doesn't make any sense, it never has. There've been competing theories throughout history for Jesus had to die. Being saved according to you is based on how easily you follow a nonsensical religion.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            boom

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Being saved according to you is based on how easily you follow a nonsensical religion.

            not following it. but believing it 🙂
            all you have to do. you dont need to accrue good boy points at anyone's church

            although nonsensical is subjective of course.
            but if you wanted a succinct* explanation it's been laid out in

            Salvation is conditional on believing in, in other words trusting in, in other words accepting* Jesus Christ’s full propitiation and atonement for all your sins past present and future.

            Substituting Jesus even partially with something else like your own works will result in eternal damnation (you will be judged* by your works). Trusting in Jesus results in being judged according to Jesus’ works; you are counted righteous on judgement day as Jesus is counted righteous, in his name.

            Jesus Christ, being God, was able to make an infinite atonement for all time and for all who believe. You are eternally sealed by the Holy Ghost at the moment you believe unto salvation. Nothing can separate you from God’s love at the point

            Salvation is a “free gift” extended to all men but everyone has free will to either outright reject it or to substitute it.
            Satan is the best example of someone who simply rejected it. Why? Because even in eternity he could not BE God, so rejection satiated his pride.
            It’s rare for living people to outright reject God. But these people are out there. “Reprobates”. Haters of God. Marked by being “full of all unrighteousness. They are given to unnatural sins (there are sins which come from our nature and ones from outside it) like homosexuality, bestiality, serial killers, child molesters, psychopaths. For these people there is no hope of salvation because they, of their heart and volition, will never* turn to God in faith.

            Are you asking how could God be just?
            A foolish question
            But, the Bible teaches that the Holy Ghost works in every persons life to draw them to Jesus Christ.
            Yes, it is ON the tribal to realize his tribe of cannibals is evil (the fact that some tribes are cannibals and some aren’t shows that is up to human choice)
            It’s on YOU to realize the inconsistency of the cultural religion imposed on you.
            In Jesus’ life, many israelites rejected him because there were “raised” to be Pharisees or “raised” some other way in accordance with their culture; and there were many israelites who chose* to overcome their cultural circumstances and believe on Christ.

            Secondly. How MUCH someone needed to know about God to be saved may have been different depending on circumstance (but this is conjecture)
            For example, the Bible says that historically, God first revealed himself only by the name “God Almighty”, and then later “Jehovah” (“I am that I am”) and now we have his Son, Jesus Christ AND the mode of his atonement fully revealed to us.
            It’s not impossible for rare individuals in remote locales to have believed on “God Almighty” but as for now and today, people are compelled by the Holy Ghost to seek Jesus Christ, and Christians are compelled to bring Jesus Christ to them.

            We would not all choose to be saved
            That’s why I brought up Satan
            Some peoples pride outweighs their desire to be saved
            Alternatively, they stand in judgment OF God for whatever reason and thus won’t believe and be saved.
            You can stand in judgment of God for creating beings with free will but as it stands this is reality.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            What if we can't bring ourselves to believe it? What if we learn of more intelligent religions that make more sense?
            >although nonsensical is subjective of course.
            logic is not subjective

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >What if we learn of more intelligent religions
            like such as?
            >logic is not subjective
            our grasp of it sure is; unless you mean to imply everyone can be perfectly logical

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Neoplatonism, but really most religions are more intelligent than the one that claims god is omnipresent but then wants to torture you for not thinking a certain thing
            >our grasp of it sure is
            Speak for yourself

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >omnipresent
            meant omnibenevolent

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >wants to torture you for not thinking a certain thing
            no, he wants to torture you for your very real sins; and not equally for all of them; people dont get the same degree in hell no matter what; axe murderers burn hotter than thieves, for example.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            What are these real sins that are worthy of torture? Why can't he just forgive everyone?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Why can't he just forgive everyone?
            while I understand 99% of people aren't THIS bad, let's use this as a baseline:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Bittaker_and_Roy_Norris
            So these guys do all this; why should God forgive them? Bear in mind, I did establish that Christ died for these sins; but these guys never believed and never would believe, as edge cases.
            Since, let's be honest, we are arguing in subjectivity; wouldn't an all-righteous God utterly abhor these people's souls forever for eternity?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            God could put them in a purgatory for the right amount of time then eventually forgive, you know like a reasonable god would do
            >wouldn't an all-righteous God utterly abhor these people's souls forever for eternity?
            First of all a righteous god would not create them in a way so they'd do that, and then would also use his omnipotence to make it so they can be forgiven. There's no way you can win this argument.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >First of all a righteous god would not create them in a way so they'd do that
            free will.

            >There's no way you can win this argument.
            "God should do it this way because I want him to"
            thats it. that's all you've put forth.

            But let me explain something to you. Sin is infinitely wrong. Why? well, let's interview someone who's just, let's say, killed someone
            >why did you do it?
            "I just got really mad, I mean, this guy was asking for it"
            >and did you HAVE to kill him?
            "well I mean I guess it could've gone differently
            >so you did it, and you acknowledge you didn't HAVE to do it?
            "I think I just felt like doing it"
            >why?
            "because in this moment I wanted to do something evil for evil reasons which can no longer be rationalized as anything other than 'because I chose evil' and which CANNOT be undone after I've done it"

            when sin is sinned, it is evil for evil's sake, despite rationalization (coping). and neither can it be undone; since to truly undo it you'd have to go back in time and simply, NOT do it (but it IS done). everything you've sinned exists in the record of eternity as something which cannot be undone, only atoned for.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So your god cannot make free will as well as not the ability to do terrible things. Then your god is not all powerful. Again you can't win this argument, your rhetoric doesn't work.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            potentially youve been influenced by sophistry which implies that God could do something like
            >make a color which is blue but also not blue
            you want God to be "logical" but you want him to create logical contradictions like
            >God should make humans with free will but not free will

            Do keep in mind that that's what your demanding; that God should make a color that is x but also not x
            essentially

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >>make a color which is blue but also not blue
            That's something that an omnipotent being could do, yes. The fact that you don't believe that the israeli tribal deity of volcanoes and infant sacrifice could do this is a demonstration that you do not believe that he is omnipotent.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            oh there it is haha
            very cool man

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That is not sophistry, it's the conclusion to omnipotence. You right now are denying your god's omnipotence, which is a blasphemy.
            >you want God to be "logical" but you want him to create logical contradictions like
            If he is an all powerful god, then he'd be able to make that logical.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >If he is an all powerful god, then he'd be able to make that logical.

            >god, who theoretically can calculate all utility; if he's not conforming to an argument I made up, must not be omnipotent

            yeah

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That's right. If the god you describe is not conforming to the rational conclusion of omnipotence then he is not all powerful.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            okay one last thing;

            >the rational conclusion of omnipotence
            do you actually think you can rationally conclude omnipotence?
            lol
            proves some of my previous posts correct, I suppose.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yes. All powerful means able to do anything, so able to make a color that is blue and also not blue comes under that.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            yes, and? OMNIpotent, not somewhat-potent.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            why weren't they given an infinity year prison sentence

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Parable of the talents comes to mind. Everyone gets x+1, albeit in different ways.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          how do you get from x+1 to infinity?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This is a false teaching. Everyone will be judged according to their actions on Judgment day. Nowhere does it say in the Revelation of John that saying one prayer about Jesus dying for your sins will allow you to bypass judgment. Not one soul will bypass judgment. You are a deceiver, and you will face God like everyone else. I hope you were righteous. Christ commanded everyone to be perfect like the father in heaven. Repent, and then avoid sin. That is how you become a true son of God.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Christ commanded everyone to be perfect like the father in heaven. Repent, and then avoid sin. That is how you become a true son of God.

        someone in another thread told me this wasnt an argument anyone used lol.

        Actually, if you read Revelation, you'd see that nowhere are believers "judged," only "rewarded"
        The "dead" delivered up from "death and hell" are "judged according to their works" but believers are "rewarded according to their works"
        why?
        believers can only be rewarded for their works in eternity; since their sins are covered. and unbelievers can only be judged, since they have no covering (Jesus).
        thus we see in what way Christ "shall give* to every man according as his work shall be"
        >reward for believers according to their work
        >judgment for unbelievers according to their work

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Doing good = Eternal life

          Why do easy believers ignore scripture? You're lazy, just admit it. Evil people go to Hell, righteous people go to Heaven.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            to be imputed with righteousness means your good works actually count
            everyone who disbelieves (that is, they do not believe in Christ's atonement but rather seek to be justified* by their works) CANNOT do good in God's eyes.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >everyone who disbelieves (that is, they do not believe in Christ's atonement but rather seek to be justified* by their works) CANNOT do good in God's eyes.

            This is found nowhere in scripture. Why do easy believers just make stuff up to justify their laziness?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            >There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            >They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            >Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            >Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            >Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            >Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            >And the way of peace have they not known:
            >There is no fear of God before their eyes.
            >Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
            >Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
            >But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
            >Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
            >For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
            >Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
            >Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
            >To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
            >Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
            >Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

            Im sorry I cant give you a single "gotcha verse" but Im sure you can deduce what this is saying.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >but what if someone was a no-good terrible Christian after they believed?
            then they receive no "rewards" but they are saved nonetheless.

            > For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
            >Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
            >Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
            >If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
            >If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            1John 3
            Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

            7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            1 John really should be the book to make you start scratching your head, but I guess not.

            >If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

            I'm not going to square the circle for you, but maybe try it for yourself instead of ignoring it.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The entire point that you're ignoring is that even though we have all sinned, we are also meant to no longer live in sin after being saved. If you (the easy believer) keep sinning thinking you have a free pass into heaven then you never really knew Jesus Christ

            1John 3
            Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

            7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

            You guys wanted to burn books from the Bible, because they didn't align with your counterfeit doctrine. No one should take you seriously.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You guys wanted to burn books from the Bible, because they didn't align with your counterfeit doctrine. No one should take you seriously.

            okay now he's lying lol.
            very cool.
            even the apocrypha were included in the KJV for posterity's sake.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Not at all what I was talking about. I'm referring to the faith alone crowd wanting to remove the book of James from th Biblical canon.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            "Works of the law" is referring to Torah observance, 613 commandments. There are only two commandments to follow according to Jesus that summarize the entire law and the prophets: "Love God and your neighbour". Easy believers misinterpret Paul to their destruction.

            >but what if someone was a no-good terrible Christian after they believed?
            then they receive no "rewards" but they are saved nonetheless.

            > For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
            >Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
            >Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
            >If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
            >If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

            Why do easy believers continue to ignore 1 John? If you live in sin after being saved you never really knew Christ in the first place. A healthy relationship with God is built around lifelong repentance, and a desire to do good and live righteously. "Once saved always saved no matter what" is found nowhere in scripture. The initial grace of God is a free gift, in his mercy he forgives freely of your former sins, but you are not meant to keep sinning.

            Read the new testament for once in your life: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205&version=NKJV

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Church loses control over you if you are saved regardless. Look at how Buddhists and Hindus act with regard to their fates in the afterlife.

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    so it's been a pleasure replying to you all. for posterity my theological positions mostly align with NIFB soteriology for further inquiry.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >when you get bullcided so hard you ragequit
      lmfao

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Oh thank frick. Could you get a tripcode so we can filter you for the next time you decide to have a melty and shitup this board?

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >John 5:29
    >Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Origen and Gregory of Nyssa both concluded that Universal Reconciliation is a plausible consequence of God's infinite power of love and mercy, and is something to be hoped and prayed for, though they hesitated to assert that it is a necessary consequence, by virtue of God's equally infinite capacity for justice, as well as the blasphemous direction of attempting to circumscribe what God must or will do.
    Essentially, they argued that while the damned and the devil could feasibly be pardoned by God and reconciled to His grace, if He so wished - as His wishes are effectively incontrovertible - and it would be blasphemy to say that God COULD NOT do this, it would be equally heretical to assume otherwise. In other words: hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

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