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  1. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    Kino

  2. 4 months ago
    Ο Σολιταίρ

    pretty based
    but falls into the trap where it doesn't want to admit that "dead faith" is still saving faith
    (and the word is "νεκρά" not "useless" as some translations would have you believe)
    i.e.
    >To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justfieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
    You cannot say that
    >faith always* 100% causes good works
    while still affirming Romans 4
    It doesn't matter anyways; Jesus Christ is the one who quickens our spirit and our body.
    On the day when we go to the Lord, our faith will be more alive than it ever was on the earth

    • 4 months ago
      Dirk

      So you answer to James' rhetorical question "can that faith save him" is "yes"?

      • 4 months ago
        Ο Σολιταίρ

        the answer is
        I don't know if a man saying he has faith has faith that saves him
        I can't see the heart
        You prove your salvation to others* via works.
        In the context of James; if you have poor brethren and you refuse to help them, is it more or less likely that you have saving faith?
        less
        Faith leads to good works, yes.
        But again, clearly good works don't always accompany saving faith or else James 2 would be meaningless as an exhortation.

        • 4 months ago
          Dirk

          But the whole point isn't self reflecting on your own faith, it's discerning the faith of others. If someone else says he has faith yet he has no works, he is not saved. James is happy to consider this a kind of faith, it's just not a saving faith. It's a dead faith, not leading to life.

          • 4 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >If someone else says he has faith yet he has no works, he is not saved
            Only God knows whether someone is saved
            The context of James is the rest of the New Testament.
            And we have to clearly consider where God says
            >To him the worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
            >Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God IMPUTETH RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT WORKS
            >Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
            >Blessed is the man to whom the Lord WILL NOT impute sin
            Righteousness imputed (to the spirit) in a moment; sin never to be imputed (to the spirit) again
            Romans 4, even, is what I would call parallel to James 2. As they are illustrating justification using Abraham, but two DIFFERENT types of justification

            I am saying there are two different kinds of justification, and not two different types of faith. Clearly* we see that saving faith doesn't require works (not now and not ever)
            But there is justification temporally and in regards to the brethren.
            It says
            >If Abraham WERE justified by works, he HATH whereof to glory, but NOT BEFORE GOD
            With that in mind, we cannot read James' illustration of justification by works as being in the sight of God.
            If we have faith, we ought* to prove it (if not for the sake of the good works themselves)
            But WHO are we proving it to?

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            James and all his readers know that a man without works has no saving faith. It's still true that (true) faith alone saves, and faith is itself a gift of God.
            True faith doesn't require works, it necessarily leads to works.

            I think you're trying to explain away James 2 because you sense a tension with sola fide but that's just not true. You're making an opposite conclusion to what James is pretty clearly saying, even explicitly. Faith without works is dead.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Can you please reconcile Romans 4 (and the quoted verses) with your* interpretation of James 2?
            I thought Romans 4 was universally held to be describing “saving faith”
            But according to you, it’s describing a different “kind” of faith (which you assert is the “dead faith” of James 2)
            If Romans 4 is about saving faith, clearly saving faith does not require good works

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            I just said "true faith doesn't require works".
            Romans 4 like several other passages teaches that justification is by faith alone, as you observed. You're misreading my position as denying sola fide.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            You can’t just say
            “Faith always produces works”
            But
            “Faith doesn’t require works”
            Anyone with a brain will realize that if you have to have something for it to be effectual
            It REQUIRES it
            It doesn’t matter how vehemently assert the opposite
            You make no sense

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            I say "necessarily leads to works"
            Did dismas do any good works between his conversation with Jesus and his death? No, but he would have if he didn't die.

            >all babies poop
            >so my pre-born son isn't a baby because he hasn't pooped yet?

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Okay so
            My position is that
            >faith leads to good works by the working of the Holy Ghost
            >it’s possible to grieve the Holy Ghost, follow the flesh
            >still be saved
            >therefore, faith tends* to good works but is not part* of salvation

            Your position is
            >faith always leads to good works but not always
            ?
            At what point does one have to do their first good deed before they know they’re saved?
            How many do they have to do in proportion to their sin?

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Woops, I meant to say
            >faith tends to good works but good works are not part of salvation

          • 4 months ago
            Worker

            Help, Dirk! I'm legitimately becoming a KJV-only, "repentance is works" Independent Fundamentalist Baptist.

            I'm not even kidding. I know exactly how you're thinking right now because that was me up until a week ago, but I seriously started listening to NIFB (assuming that Pastor Anderson was a false teacher, and simply wanting to learn how they were thinking). But everything that was said lined up with the Bible perfectly, and I'm feeling like my eyes are being opened to the gospel in a way that they never have before.

            And bear in mind that I've listened to hundreds and hundreds of hours of James White criticising KJV, White criticising IFB, Washer/Conway/other reformed teachers talking about how true faith MUST bring about works, Ray Comfort/reformed guys talking about necessity of repentance, reading Puritan writings/sermons, reading general reformed literature and doctrine.

            And I was believing every bit of it completely. I think my posts here bear witness to the importance I placed on the "necessity of repentance for salvation" etc (if you wanted to check the archives).

            But now I've seen this new perspective, and after spent hours and hour confirming everything by reading my Bible, and holding this doctrine up against the strongest reformed doctrines I know, I can say that it seems inevitable that I'm no longer believing that repentance of sins is necessary for salvation, and the idea that works must result from true faith.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Many calvinists I’ve talked to were open to IFB talking points because I believe that they’re legitimately saved
            If The Truth is already in you, then the preaching of the truth will draw you in

          • 4 months ago
            Worker

            Yeah, honestly it seems like a lot of Calvinists are really trusting in faith alone, but modern mainstream-Christian doctrine is really confusing them, to the point where they add a bunch of works when they try to present the gospel.

            But when you take one of these Calvinists and have faith alone clearly explained to them using the Bible, there really is no other option than to reject all the false baggage.

            Would be cool if you made a trip so I could follow your conversations here.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            I’m just Ο Σολιταίρ
            But I’m on my phone like a zoomer
            I’m the only other anon posting in this thread

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            Honestly, I feel like it's just a case of Reformed dudes not actually taking the time to listen to what guys like the IFB are actually saying. Which is ironic, because this is pretty much what everyone does to Calvinists (which leads to them writing off Calvinism without understanding what it entails).

            I agree that reformed types often misrepresent IFBs or others. James white does it to Leighton Flowers. I also see the attraction to Steven Anderson style preaching, it's very straightforward. He goes verse by verse as a rule and basically explains whatever is right before him, with little regard for systematic theology.

            I'm also not sure that "repentance is works" would put you outside the reformed camp, but I'm not sure exactly what you're debating

            Okay so
            My position is that
            >faith leads to good works by the working of the Holy Ghost
            >it’s possible to grieve the Holy Ghost, follow the flesh
            >still be saved
            >therefore, faith tends* to good works but is not part* of salvation

            Your position is
            >faith always leads to good works but not always
            ?
            At what point does one have to do their first good deed before they know they’re saved?
            How many do they have to do in proportion to their sin?

            I share your position except I think we can state it more strongly that faith leads to good works, such that we should treat one without works as unregenerate despite affirmations of faith. Neither of us are saying works cause faith or justification.
            I think your presentation fails to account for the point of the James passage, how to consider the faith of others.

          • 4 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >such that we should treat one without works as unregenerate despite affirmations of faith.
            I believe this is what James 2 is saying more than it saying
            >saving faith always has works

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            You'll notice I never said "always has", and I pointed out Dismas

          • 4 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            when you say that you fall into a strange space where you cannot point to "how much" good someone with saving faith will or will not do

            See, I would say that, given the same circumstance, two saved believers will not do the same amount of good or evil as one another
            But I also affirm free will. I won't assume whether you do or not Dirk.

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            I affirm free will and I think the standard James gives us is any works. No works leads us to doubt one's salvation. Any works leads us to suppose one's salvation (alongside profession of faith). Continued unrepentance after a sin also leads us to doubt, to treat them as an unbeliever.

          • 4 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            In what sense are you now speaking?
            Because if you're talking about justification before men, before the brethren, then I am in agreement with what you're saying. Using language like "us doubting/us supposing" would suggest justification before man. Which I would affirm is what James 2 is about

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            I'm talking about justification period, as it appears before men. They're not being justified or saved by their fellow men, the subject is saved by God and men observe it.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            It's not "justification by..." but rather "justification in the sight of..."

            Justification and salvation are distinct but related concepts. We want to be careful not to conflate terms.

            "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
            2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
            3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
            4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord."
            - 1 Corinthians 4:1-4

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            Do you consider the whole epistle to have "justification before men" in view?

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            James 2:14-26 clearly is about this subject. It makes it clear in the opening part of the first five verses, like was highlighted here

            Yes, if you read the immediate context of James 2:14 you see that this passage is dealing with one man telling another man that he has faith. In James 2:14 it talks about one man saying to another that he has faith. It is just as explicit in James 2:18. It's all about showing your faith to another person, so that they may be saved. The example given by James in James 2:15-16 fits that perfectly. The person who says he has faith is trying to help another person be saved. The question is can that profession of faith by itself save the other person?

            This passage in James is all about the justification toward men, not toward God (as in Romans 4). The example of Abraham is perfect as well, since we see in Romans 4 he was saved before he did any works, but in James 2 it is noted that his faith is seen in action by others through works afterward. The two passages compliment each other. Thus his life is a testimony that leads others to faith throughout the ages.

            The wrong takeaway from James 2 however is that one should look for their own works as proof of their own justification. No, that's intended to enable you to save others. James 2:14 is asking whether your faith can save someone else without works, with the implicit answer being "no." Meanwhile, the assurance of salvation comes from faith that God's word is a sure foundation.

            Furthermore, saved people are not given the right to boast or brag about their good works, because these are done by God through them. Hence, as it says in Philippians 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

            So it is not us that wills but God who works and wills. See also Philippians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:5, and 1 Corinthians 15:10 (below).

            "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            It’s an exhortation to do good works
            Some biblical passages exhort us to do good for the sake of it
            Some exhort us to do good for the sake of others

          • 4 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            You have to be justified before God to be saved by God.
            To be justified before men is related but separate. It doesn't save you. Having active and alive faith will justify you before men and people will see your good works and glorify your father in heaven.
            Peter (for example) won people to Christ because he had a living great faith. People believed that HE believed; he was justified in their sight.
            We believe that Abraham had great faith because he would offer Isaac. If he hadn't done that, he would seem to be of lesser faith (to us).
            To me, this is not confusing.
            If it is to you, then I guess we're at an impasse.

          • 4 months ago
            Worker

            >I'm also not sure that "repentance is works" would put you outside the reformed camp, but I'm not sure exactly what you're debating
            Yeah, I'm currently wondering if NIFB-type doctrine can actually work alongside legitimate Reformed doctrine (not what passes for Reformed today). But the issue is that literally every Reformed public-figure that I've ever listened to teaches that repentance from sin MUST take place for someone's salvation. This is obviously highly contradictory to the NIFB position.

            Just as one example of how this clashes, James White was utterly flabbergasted as to how Pastor Anderson and Reformed Baptists could work together to evangelise. White's reasoning was "how can you preach the gospel without repentance?" And of course, he means repentance from sin, which I now believe is a work that *may* occur after salvation (before this, in accordance with mainstream Reformed teaching, I believed that repentance from sin must occur before or during the process of salvation).

          • 4 months ago
            Dirk

            Are you familiar with the whole lordship salvation issue from like 10 years ago

          • 4 months ago
            Worker

            I'm very familiar with that, I used to be a massive proponent of "Lordship salvation" until a couple of days ago.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Ah, you’ve abandoned works based salvation. Good to hear you’re finally Protestant.

          • 4 months ago
            Worker

            I'm not Protestant; don't you know that Independent Baptists have always existed and were never in the Catholic Church? That's what Anderson says. Protestants are a part of Roman Catholicism that are protesting against the some of the Pope's doctrines.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Well you have something in common with them as an independent Baptist.

          • 4 months ago
            Worker

            I'm just messing around. Although at this point I'm almost ready to believe it

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            Thankfully I don’t think Anderson endorses “trail of blood” or the idea that there were “baptists” all throughout history
            I think the position is that there have always been “faith onlyists” whether popular or not, all the way from the apostles till the reformation.
            I was reading Augustine, and he says that works are necessary for salvation, yet in his dialogue, he says
            >there are those who say that faith is all you need
            Or something along those lines
            I think I read something similar in Bede
            Indicating the prevalence of faith-onlyists

        • 4 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yes, if you read the immediate context of James 2:14 you see that this passage is dealing with one man telling another man that he has faith. In James 2:14 it talks about one man saying to another that he has faith. It is just as explicit in James 2:18. It's all about showing your faith to another person, so that they may be saved. The example given by James in James 2:15-16 fits that perfectly. The person who says he has faith is trying to help another person be saved. The question is can that profession of faith by itself save the other person?

          This passage in James is all about the justification toward men, not toward God (as in Romans 4). The example of Abraham is perfect as well, since we see in Romans 4 he was saved before he did any works, but in James 2 it is noted that his faith is seen in action by others through works afterward. The two passages compliment each other. Thus his life is a testimony that leads others to faith throughout the ages.

          The wrong takeaway from James 2 however is that one should look for their own works as proof of their own justification. No, that's intended to enable you to save others. James 2:14 is asking whether your faith can save someone else without works, with the implicit answer being "no." Meanwhile, the assurance of salvation comes from faith that God's word is a sure foundation.

          Furthermore, saved people are not given the right to boast or brag about their good works, because these are done by God through them. Hence, as it says in Philippians 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

          So it is not us that wills but God who works and wills. See also Philippians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:5, and 1 Corinthians 15:10 (below).

          "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

      • 4 months ago
        Ο Σολιταίρ

        "If A MAN SAY he hath faith..."
        ...
        "I will show MY faith by works"
        skipping the "yes or no" answer that people try to give

  3. 4 months ago
    Worker

    Honestly, I feel like it's just a case of Reformed dudes not actually taking the time to listen to what guys like the IFB are actually saying. Which is ironic, because this is pretty much what everyone does to Calvinists (which leads to them writing off Calvinism without understanding what it entails).

  4. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >2023

    >gentiles still talk about israelites

    • 4 months ago
      Ο Σολιταίρ

      >2023

      >gentiles still talking about gentiles talking about israelites

      curious

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