Logical flaw in abrahism

I think I found a logical problem within abrahamic religions. Are there any saints that have written about this? Or can you show how this is wrong?

God created the world from nothing. This means that reality has once been in a state where only God exists. This is why creation was 'from nothing'. There was nothing before that except God.

God is also pure actuality. Meaning that he doesn't change. God only has good traits. He has all good traits. If God were to change then he would acquire a new good trait that he previously wouldn't have had. However then God in the past would not have had all good traits and therefore would have not been God.

If the creation of the world was not good. Then the world would have never been created.

If the creation of the world would have been as good as God existing by himself. Then what was the reason or push for creating the world? Remember that before the world was there was only God. And God doesn't change nor are there any events that might take place to change his mind. If it would have been equally good for God to exist by himself. Then wouldn't the world kind of be a random accident? That there wasn't a purpose and a goal and a reason for existence. That it could have never been. Doesn't that make reality kind of absurd? In physics we learn that if there are two equal forces effecting an object then the object will continue on the same speed and direction that it previously was moving.

If the creation of the world was good. Then why didn't it happen before? If creation began to exist then whenever God existed without creation he would have been lacking a good trait. Which would then make him not God at that moment, since he would be lacking a good trait.

It seems that the only logical conclusion is that the world is co-eternal with God.

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  1. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    uhh... god is outside time

    • 4 months ago
      Anonymous

      Nah homie. The universe was once in a state where the world didn't exist but God did. Creation ex nihilo.

      • 4 months ago
        Anonymous

        correct, when the universe was created time was created with it. It does not exist independent of the universe

        • 4 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah I know. However the issue is that logically the world must be co-eternal with God. In order for God to be fully good and unchanging. However from my understanding christians, israelites and muslims say that the world is not co-eternal with God.

        • 4 months ago
          Anonymous

          Hmmm, can this argument be condensed and used to convince Christians into accepting the idea that time doesn't exist independent of the universe. And then use the typical variety of secular cosmological arguments that depend on this universe/time dependence.

  2. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >God only has good traits.
    Wrong. God is transcendent, beyond the concepts of good and evil.

  3. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Then what was the reason or push for creating the world?
    He willed it. Who are you to question God's motives?

  4. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >God created the world.
    >but we must hate the world that he created.
    >the Afterlife is where it's at.
    >but God is going to return in 2 moar weeks and remake Earth.
    >this world is evil and the powers that be all worship Satan.
    >But remember that all authority on this world is established by God, and we have to obey our rulers.
    the logical flaws work themselves out when you realize it's all hogwash imposed by the elite, meant to control the low iq, the gullible and the decent hearted. But never meant to be "logical".

    • 4 months ago
      Anonymous

      None of what you listed were logical contradictions. What I propose is in my opinion an actual logical contradiction

      • 4 months ago
        Anonymous

        eh... they're contradictions.

        If the Bible says to "obey the authorities because they're established by God", and then later on says that "the world is controlled by Satan and his minions" (in the political sense. e.g. when Jesus was out in the desert, on the mountain, and Satan tried to bribe him with the promise of political power), then that means that God=Satan.

        • 4 months ago
          Ο Σολιταίρ

          Satan is an unwitting tool of God.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            the abrahamic "god" IS satan.

  5. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >logical flaw in religion
    big whoop

  6. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >God created the world from nothing.

    "the chaos of Gen 1:2 is not quite as complete as in Timaeus, but seems to exhibit a degree of structure already present in the unfashioned world. Indeed, how could the primordial chaos be a “formless void” if one could already distinguish earth from water or detect the wind-blown surface of the waters of the deep? In addition, Gen 1:2 mentions only earth, water and air (in the form of darkness and wind): fire goes unmentioned, and its absence is seemingly implied by the darkness that covered the face of the deep. But Zeno’s cosmogony has a phase in which earth, ocean and air are well defined, while fire is only implicitly present. This suggests that Gen 1:2 incorporated features from both Plato’s and Zeno’s cosmogonies."

    "out of what materials did the Demiurge fashion the kosmos? And a second question: in what place did the raw materials of the universe exist? To answer such questions, Plato postulated a third form of existence:
    -not the eternal, perfect realm of Being (οὑσία), where the supreme god of Creation resided;
    -nor yet the present, ordered realm of Becoming (γένεσις), the kosmos fashioned by the Creator;
    -but a primordial, chaotic material realm, which he called the Receptacle or Place (χώρας), where the Demiurge found all the raw materials he required, an amorphous swirl of proto-elements that comprised the universe prior to the arrival of the God (Timaeus 53b).""

    "Plato analogized these three distinct forms of existence as Father, Mother and Offspring (Timaeus 48e–49d)."
    "The Mother was the Receptacle, “as it were the nurse of all becoming” (Timaeus 49a), the womb-like primordial void, whose role was to be acted upon by the Demiurge and be a vehicle for Becoming.
    The Offspring was the visible body of the kosmos in the realm of Becoming, grown within the matrix or womb of the Mother, and born as a copy and living image created in the likeness of the Father."

  7. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    I ain't seeing any refutations.

  8. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because creation is something separate from God. Caused, but not of the same substance.
    Also
    >If the creation of the world was good
    God literally calls it good at the front of the whole Bible.

    • 4 months ago
      Anonymous

      God doesn't call anything good because the Bible was written by human hand, it was influenced by the minds of the hands that wrote it. The Hebrew bible is an amalgamation of stolen myths and epic from surrounding civilizations, ancient mesopetamia, egyptians, greeks, persians etc. The creation myth was written while the hebrews were in babylon. God didn't write anything.

      • 4 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The Hebrew bible is an amalgamation of stolen myths and epic from surrounding civilizations
        Incorrect. It's rather that, because of the shared origin of humanity, multiple authors express the same truths which are related accurately in scripture. We don't necessarily call one account of history "stolen" from another, regardless of their qualities.

        >The creation myth was written while the hebrews were in babylon.
        The contents of Genesis predate the captivity by a whole millennia, or almost that.

        This thread is about supposed logical inconsistencies within the truth still proposed to us by the church, not running outside of this in a lack of argument and denying it.

    • 4 months ago
      Anonymous

      Ok but it must be co-eternal with God. In order for God to be God.

      God is the uncaused First Cause
      Read Aquinas

      >Read aquinas
      Ok but where is this problem addressed? How is that relevant for anything? I know God is the first cause. Where and what should i read?

      The Bible says that God made everything "for his good pleasure"
      He also exists outside of "time"
      that is to say; if we take "time" itself as a creation then saying "why didn't it happen before" is meaningless.

      Yes I know that God is outside time. However the logical conclusion is that the world is co-eternal with God. That is to stay where God is the world is found also. However it seems to be that the churches teach that it's not co-eternal with God.

      The World is composed and it is impossible for a composed being to be eternal, as composition is necessarily subjected to generation and corruption.

      Corruption only happens in time. It doesn't refute this if time is an eternally created thing.

      >most christposters completely missing the point
      Sad.
      OP I'm not a christian myself, but afaik some of William Lane Craig's more serious work tackles this problem. Haven't read it though, you'll have to see for yourself if you find that he answers the problem to your satisfaction.

      In which book does he address this? And which chapter? Is there some philosophical name for this problem? It's inefficient to read an entire authors work to potentially arrive at a satisfactory answer to this problem.

      >However then God in the past
      God is not time-bound.

      >what was the reason or push for creating the world?
      Love.

      >If the creation of the world was good. Then why didn't it happen before?
      Before what?

      >If creation began to exist then whenever God existed without creation he would have been lacking a good trait.
      The world existing is not God's trait.

      >God is outside time
      Yes I know that. However it is difficult to speak about these things without using timed language.
      >God created the world out of love.
      Ok. So that act was more loving than not creating the world. And God doesn't change. And God always chooses what is more loving. So God's choosing what is more loving is an eternal and unchanging trait. And creation is an expression of that trait(love). Therefore the world must be co-eternal with God.

      • 4 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Therefore the world must be co-eternal with God.
        It wouldn't be creation then and he would never have chosen the more loving option.

        • 4 months ago
          Anonymous

          Just because it is co-eternal doesn't mean that it's not created. God eternally creates/generates the world.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            That doesnt make any sense though. When did god create it? Before time? If the universe is eternal it wouldnt need to be created. If your going to claim that god 'transcends' our understaning or something then thats basically admitting god is an illogical idea.

          • 4 months ago
            Anonymous

            In Christian theology co-eternal means uncreated, but let's put it aside because I think I know what you mean. For your point to make sense, God would have to be in God-time where he's capable of God-changes, one of which would be to start creating at a certain point in God-time. That is not so. God is outside time and there was no before or change upon the "starting point" of creation.

      • 4 months ago
        Anonymous

        >If the creation of the world would have been as good as God existing by himself. Then what was the reason or push for creating the world?

        God was not lacking in His goodness before creating the world. However, the "nature" of good, is to bestow goodness upon others.
        Although God "could not" do this before the creation, His goodness was still not lacking.

        >If the creation of the world was good. Then why didn't it happen before?

        First, see above; there was no lacking on God's part before creation.
        Secondly, God is not bound by time, as it's creator. Questions bound by time are inapplicable to God.

        It is interesting to note that one would think that any doctrine of mysticism or esoteric teaching would deal with God Himself. However in Kabbalah, one of the first things dealt with, along with the very questions you have raised, is that "(since the human mind, as a creation of God, cannot possibly grasp Him at all,) we never speak about God Himself; only how we see His interactions with the universe."

        I'm not sure I understood your arguement at first, I think I do now.
        Correct me if I'm wrong.

        1) God is unchanging.
        2) God is good.
        3) The creation of the world is good.

        If God existed before 3, 1 (or 2) cannot be true.

  9. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    You could say the imagination is God, a creative force. The first law of the 7 hermetic principles is mentalism, the mind is the all. Nature isn't good or evil, good and evil is a concept humans created. Cause and effect was a known principle thousands of years before Newton said over action has an equal and opposite reaction, he knew it because he studies occult knowledge. The Abrahamic God is an ancient storm God.

  10. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The Princess Bride
    Kino.

  11. 4 months ago
    Radiochan

    God is the uncaused First Cause
    Read Aquinas

  12. 4 months ago
    Ο Σολιταίρ

    The Bible says that God made everything "for his good pleasure"
    He also exists outside of "time"
    that is to say; if we take "time" itself as a creation then saying "why didn't it happen before" is meaningless.

  13. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    The World is composed and it is impossible for a composed being to be eternal, as composition is necessarily subjected to generation and corruption.

  14. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >most christposters completely missing the point
    Sad.
    OP I'm not a christian myself, but afaik some of William Lane Craig's more serious work tackles this problem. Haven't read it though, you'll have to see for yourself if you find that he answers the problem to your satisfaction.

  15. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    The EO perspective is that God didn't need anything, but he created being so the others could partake in this joy of his grace.

  16. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >However then God in the past
    God is not time-bound.

    >what was the reason or push for creating the world?
    Love.

    >If the creation of the world was good. Then why didn't it happen before?
    Before what?

    >If creation began to exist then whenever God existed without creation he would have been lacking a good trait.
    The world existing is not God's trait.

  17. 4 months ago
    Anonymous

    >If the creation of the world would have been as good as God existing by himself. Then what was the reason or push for creating the world?

    God was not lacking in His goodness before creating the world. However, the "nature" of good, is to bestow goodness upon others.
    Although God "could not" do this before the creation, His goodness was still not lacking.

    >If the creation of the world was good. Then why didn't it happen before?

    First, see above; there was no lacking on God's part before creation.
    Secondly, God is not bound by time, as it's creator. Questions bound by time are inapplicable to God.

    It is interesting to note that one would think that any doctrine of mysticism or esoteric teaching would deal with God Himself. However in Kabbalah, one of the first things dealt with, along with the very questions you have raised, is that "(since the human mind, as a creation of God, cannot possibly grasp Him at all,) we never speak about God Himself; only how we see His interactions with the universe."

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