>Make up fairytales accompanied by pretty noises to appease the bourgeoisie

>Make up fairytales accompanied by pretty noises to appease the bourgeoisie
>They give you their money, let you live on their property and frick their wives
He was too based for this world.

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Ring is not a fairy tale, it is the fate of Western civilisation. And its music is not pretty noises, it is the soul of that civilisation.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >IT'S NOT PRETTY!!
      Unhinged. Why can't Wagner be pretty?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Wagnerites are so cringe, holy frick

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    HIs life testifies that there was no greater time to be an artist than in the 19th century. Absolute indulgence from patrons and absolute freedom of expression.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You underestimate how much he suffered and was alone. His place im the 19th century is important because of his place in the development of German music

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I mean he had a wife didn’t he? He did better than I have in that regard.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          With his first wife he had a very dysfunctional marriage and she died young.

          I recommend thomas manns essay Suffering and Greatness of Richard Wagner

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            His letter to Planer are insane. He surely came close to killing her.

            They had epic fights.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I mean he had a wife didn’t he?
          lol he married Alan Partridge

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >implying cosima is unattractive

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You're just proving him right, anon. Look at the size of that schnoz, Jaysus!

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            stop watching porn and post face

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >lol he married Alan Partridge
            She was the daughter of Lizst. He was probably thinking about breeding some hiper-musicians. Pure eugenics, man.
            Unfortunatelly, I don't think it worked out.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            His son was a mega gay.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >His son was a mega gay.
            Much worse. He didn't have the talent of both his grandparents combined. What a shame.
            Eugenics disproved.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >grandparents
            Not grandparents. Let me correct it.
            You know what I mean.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Eugenics don't even work with horses. They'll breed these horses with huge hearts that die of all sort of complications.

            Mature is always more mysterious than we think.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            https://i.imgur.com/7Mo7CYN.jpeg

            Wagner ultimately lost by siring a bunch of gays.

            https://i.imgur.com/FOv7OGx.jpeg

            His son was a mega gay.

            >It was arranged that Winifred Klindworth, as she was called at the time, aged 17, would meet Siegfried Wagner, aged 45, at the Bayreuth Festival in 1914. A year later, they were married.
            Not bad for a gay

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >>It was arranged that Winifred Klindworth, as she was called at the time, aged 17, would meet Siegfried Wagner, aged 45, at the Bayreuth Festival in 1914. A year later, they were married.
            This was based, I'm not gonna lie.
            But what follows isn't.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Cosima was fond of saying Siegfried had a 'minor genius' for music because his operettas achieved some success in his own lifetime. He didn't inherit their genius, but he inherited their intelligence to run the Bayreuth festival. That was passed on to Wieland Wagner, who is considered one of the greatest theatre director's of the 20th century.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Good financial sweet spot too. It’s not like the 1700s where you have to be already rich to start producing art or tread on eggshells in not pissing off your patrons or you can end up like Mozart did at the end of his life. There was enough of an educated audience and a more democratically minded nouveau riche in the latter 1800s. If you appeal to mass culture and the newly literate masses like Dickens you will be set for life, and if not there’s enough other avenues of support to get by without having to necessarily pander to what’s popular or have everything dictated purely by what will be profitable and take some pretty extraordinary risks. It may be taken for granted now but the whole “naturalism” thing in literature was a pretty big risk at the time since all the bestsellers were still sensational and sentimental stories and such like The Mysteries of Paris, and then once that became the norm the reaction against it was another big literary risk in itself. All that being said we mainly only remember the successes now, hundreds of unknown artists must have tried living this lifestyle and bombed out. Naturally the geniuses rose to the top, but it’s not out of the question that could have been several Wagner tier geniuses of the time who simply went into other professions because they still thought trying to become an actual Wagner too risky

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I don't know, Wagner got really lucky when the King of Bavaria became a fanboy and basically threw money at him for the Ring and all his later operas. If it wasn't for Ludwig he probably would not have been as great a success as he was.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yes but when you live with that much passion its not “luck”, things are bound to work out.

          Apparently he was seriously considering moving to Minnesota befor Ludwig came to power

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Apparently he was seriously considering moving to Minnesota befor Ludwig came to power
            Can you imagine? Im picturing a world where Wagner is considered the Norman Rockwell of early film scores.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It depends on the culture but by and large the wealthy liked being offended.
        The revolutions of 1848 swept across Europe and pretty much every nation's nobility realised shit had to change; the old ways were no longer applicable.
        So there was an explosion of artistic expression and new philosophical and theological ideas.
        Plus everyone with money was experimenting with newly imported and synthesised drugs. They'd have laughing gas and opium parties, smoke weed in cafés, get tattoos, and all the other newfound ways of expressing themselves.
        In Britain the popularity of satire was in full swing, as was the Libertine movement, and Rococo was replaced by the Neo-Classicism style which focused on simplicity, symmetry, and legacy.
        Clothing and architecture became less poncey and more simplified, and attitudes did as well. The Victorians had a particularly ghoulish sense of humour, openly acknowledging the horrors of fledgling industrialisation (like the remains of British soldiers during the Napoleonic Wars being imported to the UK to be used as fertiliser), and when jelly babies were invented in the 1860s they were branded as "unclaimed babies", which the Victorians found hilarious.
        So it was a period of a lot of crises behind them necessitating radical cultural change, huge imports of new goods and ideas, much more down to earth attitudes, the opening up of stuffy high society, and a frick tonne of money.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The 19th century was the last great century of mankind.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Too bad the masses nowadays are completely illiterate and uneducated , regardless of the subsidized— free even— public education and unlimited access to knowledge online.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No amount of knowledge will replace the constructive and beneficent influence of a living culture.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >constructive and beneficent influence of a living culture.
            Hahahahahahahahaha I lmao unironically
            Most people are awful, and propagandists (publicists) ans ideologists are the incarnation of el diablo.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Most people are awful, and propagandists (publicists) ans ideologists
            If you think this is what a living culture is you're supremely lacking in a soul. A living culture is, as example, the musical culture of 19th century Vienna, in which a Schubert could freely absorb and learn from everything, find any model, any guide, any audience, from the youngest age receive the right impressions, a musically productive era like no other. That this is not already an archetype in your mind speaks very poorly of your historical comprehension.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            By ‘people’ I’m referring to the commoners, who make up the majority of society and, not intellectuals.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            "Commoners" of the 19th century were ten times more intelligent than the average person today with the brain destroyed by tiktok and twatter.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            twitter and TikTok doesn't destroy brains. it actually makes them smarter if anything. it does harm literacy

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >with the brain destroyed by tiktok and twatter.
            Not to mention IQfy.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Even the majority of society had a more beneficent and constructive influence back then, since they were familiar with the classical music of the day. They didn't understand it, but they still enjoyed it. And they were raised from tenderest youth to have reverence for religion. A living culture dominates a whole people, and by it many commoners are lifted up to be intellectuals if they have the talents.

            Have you read the criticism by Oscar Wilde of the bourgeois society in England?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No, what about it?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Even the majority of society had a more beneficent and constructive influence back then, since they were familiar with the classical music of the day. They didn't understand it, but they still enjoyed it. And they were raised from tenderest youth to have reverence for religion. A living culture dominates a whole people, and by it many commoners are lifted up to be intellectuals if they have the talents.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The dwarves in Germanic myths are referencing the tiny grain fed Roman soibois. If you ever see Roman armor in real life you'll think it was made for a child.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/qQ78Aeb.jpeg

      >Make up fairytales accompanied by pretty noises to appease the bourgeoisie
      >They give you their money, let you live on their property and frick their wives
      He was too based for this world.

      glorification of hedonism by the bourgeois and women

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Seeing the Ring Cycle in the late 1800s would have been mind-blowing. People probably left their seats in a mild state of shock.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Taking on Wagner constitutes a genre to which I myself would like to contribute one more variation. In so doing, I will be following in the footsteps of Lacoue-Labarthe, who, like Adorno and Nietzsche before him, considers it absolutely essential for a philosopher to take on Wagner. If I mentioned philosophers here, it may well be because Wagner is a philosophical musical obsession of theirs. Be that as it may, there is clearly no getting around it: philosophers take on Wagner, and I am going to end up taking him on too. That is the first point I wanted to mention.

    It is very interesting to see this sort of thing even in Heidegger, because music can hardly be said to occupy a particularly important place in his work, anymore, in my opinion, than does art in general, or shall we say any art other than poetry. I don't think one finds in Heidegger a particularly complex or deep appreciation for non-poetic art. When music does come up in his writing, it is only as a pretext for condemning Wagner. Heidegger, too, was involved in quarrelling with Wagner — an extremely suggestive fact, considering the fondness Heidegger harboured for Nazism during a certain time, and the well-known fact that Nazism, on the contrary, vigorously set about co-opting Wagner, and Nietzsche into the bargain. So it is a very complicated story, because first we've got Nietzsche quarrelling with Wagner, and then we've got the Nazis constructing a certain Nietzsche who would have to be reconciled, or complicit, with Wagner since Wagner was one of the great artistic icons of the Nazi regime! Here, too, an extremely complicated series of debates about Wagner can be noted, as a result of which Nietzsche, Heidegger, Adorno and Lacoue-Labarthe — all following, as the latter reminds us, in the footsteps of Mallarme and Baudelaire — have come to compromise a history of debates about Wagner. It has proven to be an amazingly rich history, especially if we bear in mind that philosophers' debates about music are a relatively rare phenomenon.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i don't get the appeal of his music.

    it's chaotic noise

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >it's chaotic noise
      Skill issue

      "A mature Wagner opera is organized as highly, and almost as purely musically, as a Beethoven symphony. Its organization is on totally different lines; and any analysis that attempts to apply symphonic terms to Wagner is doomed to fantastic abstruseness. But the analysis of Wagner’s music into hundreds of short themes associated with dramatic incidents and thoughts carries us no farther into his principles of composition than the compiling of a dictionary of his words. The music is no more built from these details than the drama is built from its words. Behind and above this apparatus, the music is architectural on a scale actually from ten to twenty times larger than anything contemplated in earlier music; and it is true to the architectural nature of music; its symmetries are expressed in recapitulations as vast and as exact as those of any symphonic music. Words are not thus recapitulated, nor is the singer often conscious of taking part in a recapitulation, since the musical declamation fits the words at every moment, and the voice-part itself, therefore, does not recapitulate."
      - Donald Tovey

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      His trick, such as it is, was to extend the unresolved harmony, which in conventional sonata form might resolve itself a few minutes later during the recapitulation stage, over the course of a four hour opera. And have the plot mirror the music development.
      So in Tristan you get this huge unresolved chord right at the start, which almost but not quite comes back in Act 2 when the lovers almost but not quite frick - so the listener is left as blueballed as poor old Tristan - and only finally resolves, when the plot resolves, when Isolde hits that perfect note at the very end of the opera and dies for not good reason. So you've had a good four hours of musical gooning.
      With a great performance where every element comes together it can be sensational, but its a highwire act that can be really tedious if it's not perfect.

      https://i.imgur.com/Eu7JL9k.jpeg

      >it's chaotic noise
      Skill issue

      "A mature Wagner opera is organized as highly, and almost as purely musically, as a Beethoven symphony. Its organization is on totally different lines; and any analysis that attempts to apply symphonic terms to Wagner is doomed to fantastic abstruseness. But the analysis of Wagner’s music into hundreds of short themes associated with dramatic incidents and thoughts carries us no farther into his principles of composition than the compiling of a dictionary of his words. The music is no more built from these details than the drama is built from its words. Behind and above this apparatus, the music is architectural on a scale actually from ten to twenty times larger than anything contemplated in earlier music; and it is true to the architectural nature of music; its symmetries are expressed in recapitulations as vast and as exact as those of any symphonic music. Words are not thus recapitulated, nor is the singer often conscious of taking part in a recapitulation, since the musical declamation fits the words at every moment, and the voice-part itself, therefore, does not recapitulate."
      - Donald Tovey

      >responding to queries with snark and a wall of text appeal to authority.
      This is why nobody likes you Wagneranon

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The 'Tristan is about sex' meme is a very superficial interpretation, but it's at least applicable, whereas it's not applicable to any of Wagner's other operas. You're not explaining the nature of Wagner's music to someone if you're just giving a rundown on one of his operas.

        Also lmao at you not being able to read 'a wall of text' that perfectly explains why it's ridiculous to call Wagner's music 'chaotic noise'. Confirming once again that anti-Wagnerians are just musically incompetent.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >whereas it's not applicable to any of Wagner's other operas
          Who said it was?
          >You're not explaining the nature of Wagner's music to someone if you're just giving a rundown on one of his operas.
          Did that in the first paragraph, then used an example (Tristan) to illustrate. Try to keep up!
          >at you not being able to read
          Again, says who? I'm mocking you, for your pedantry and your inability to maintain a convo without posting the same old quotes every time. As tiresome as the Henry James pasta
          >anti-Wagnerians
          Me? How did you work that out? I just explained his musical method and how it applies to one of his operas. Can you do the same with, let us say, The Magic Flute?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Did that in the first paragraph, then used an example (Tristan) to illustrate.
            He didn't extend unresolved harmony over a four hour opera anywhere aside from Tristan. The lack of harmonic resolution is far from the most distinguishing element of his music, there are regular resolutions in every other opera, moron-kun. Which makes more sense, since the music follows the plot, not the other way around. Perhaps you should know something about music and not just repeat popular cliches? The idea of boiling a composer like Wagner down to a single trick is just ridiculous, but even more ridiculous to claim the trick was unresolved harmony.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Not applicable to any other Wagner operas
          Have you heard of a little something called Parsifal?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            SURE, there are erotic themes in it, just like in most of his operas, but you can't reduce the entire opera to sex like people do to Tristan.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Wrong, your conflating eroticism and sex. The eros of Tristan couldn’t be less related to sex (as fleshly union)—it’s perhaps the least sexual music we have. As such it’s highly related to the music of Parsifal.

            His trick, such as it is, was to extend the unresolved harmony, which in conventional sonata form might resolve itself a few minutes later during the recapitulation stage, over the course of a four hour opera. And have the plot mirror the music development.
            So in Tristan you get this huge unresolved chord right at the start, which almost but not quite comes back in Act 2 when the lovers almost but not quite frick - so the listener is left as blueballed as poor old Tristan - and only finally resolves, when the plot resolves, when Isolde hits that perfect note at the very end of the opera and dies for not good reason. So you've had a good four hours of musical gooning.
            With a great performance where every element comes together it can be sensational, but its a highwire act that can be really tedious if it's not perfect.
            [...]
            >responding to queries with snark and a wall of text appeal to authority.
            This is why nobody likes you Wagneranon

            Nobody likes you

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I don't like reducing Tristan to a metaphor of sex, but it's technically possible. Wagner never shied away from the fact that the mounting of romantic desire finds it consummation in sex, and the overall story of Tristan parallels, at times is synonymous with, but on the whole is different from, that mounting desire with its disappointments and fulfilments. Particularly in act 2 Wagner does his best to represent all the feelings of an amorous embrace with the individual motifs, but they're never descriptive at the level of flesh as you say. So I wouldn't separate it from sex as much as you do, but I agree sex is not the main thing. In Parsifal, the musical world of Klingsor (which includes Kundry and the Flowermaidens, and also Amfortas) is full of eroticism, and the other half of Parsifal, the world of the Grail, is exactly opposed to any eroticism. I would call the latter the least sexual music, but I wouldn't say the same for the prior. Erotic music is closer to the sexual than non-erotic music.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >four hours of musical gooning
        yeah no thanks

        https://i.imgur.com/Eu7JL9k.jpeg

        >it's chaotic noise
        Skill issue

        "A mature Wagner opera is organized as highly, and almost as purely musically, as a Beethoven symphony. Its organization is on totally different lines; and any analysis that attempts to apply symphonic terms to Wagner is doomed to fantastic abstruseness. But the analysis of Wagner’s music into hundreds of short themes associated with dramatic incidents and thoughts carries us no farther into his principles of composition than the compiling of a dictionary of his words. The music is no more built from these details than the drama is built from its words. Behind and above this apparatus, the music is architectural on a scale actually from ten to twenty times larger than anything contemplated in earlier music; and it is true to the architectural nature of music; its symmetries are expressed in recapitulations as vast and as exact as those of any symphonic music. Words are not thus recapitulated, nor is the singer often conscious of taking part in a recapitulation, since the musical declamation fits the words at every moment, and the voice-part itself, therefore, does not recapitulate."
        - Donald Tovey

        music too complex is spiritually disorienting and annoying

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Spiritual
          No such thing, chud.
          Just big brain endless faustian harmony, not that you'd get it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Oh, but there is. You reject the notion in favor of your sensual indulgences without proper rational investigation, troony. So many self-inflicted tragedies I witness on this board. It's quite something.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >faustian
            >harmony
            Incoherent babble.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The physiognomy of your mind is so hideous, actually disgusting. The desire to denigrate a high work of art is analogous to the desire to destroy, in whatever form. You’re one sick human being.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I am a casual enjoyer of classical music, but Wagner (and opera in general, really) seems unapproachable.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Just listen to the most famous highlights (overtures, arias, symphonic excerpts) of each opera, and go from there to individual scenes, then to acts, and inevitably full operas. It's really very simple.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Wagner is far from unapproachable. He was one of the pioneers of leitmotif.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I can listen to anything from Schütz to Bruckner but cant into Wagner

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >thinks Wagner was just a petty pecuniary pussy-chaser
    What causes this misprison?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Oh I don't know maybe look at his biography

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Points for humor, but there's simply no way.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I am unfamiliar with musical theory and therefore cannot speak of his contributions and innovations thereto, but I remain resolutely skeptical of romanticism as a project and find it difficult to abstract Wagner not simply from the genre but from a position of leadership therein. Romanticism, to me, is steeped in duplicity; those of middling intellects will attribute this duplicity to the composers but 9 believe, in this dance, no one party is more thoroughly duped than the romantic composer. Tchaikovsky recognized this, if I remember correctly

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Isn’t it about israeli greed and dominion? The dwarf ‘s trying to perplex the daughters so to get their slimy hands on the gold and achieve world dominance?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's a depiction of the ur-incel and the whole world order that arose from his resentment.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        What are you even on about?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          NTA but the ur-battle between incels, chads and volcels is a key theme throughout Wagner's dramas. This is known.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        NTA but the ur-battle between incels, chads and volcels is a key theme throughout Wagner's dramas. This is known.

        Yeah, you were right. I got filtered a bit, not anymore tho haha

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's unironically israeli projection.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >bourgeoise
    why do wienersucking homosexuals abuse this buzzword

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Adorno says this of Wagner. OP post is inaccurate since

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What's your favorite leitmotive? For me it's this

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The most triumphant motif in the Ring:

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The first one, the beginning of it all

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Hearing this throughout the Ring is the most joyful experience.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The entire group of Rhine motifs are a sheer joy to hear. My favourite appearance:

          ?t=2969

          You don't expect to hear Rhine waves so the significance of Siegfried having attained Ring really stands out, especially since there's not even a hint of the curse motif. The Ring motif used is the one closer to the original sounds of the Rhinemaidens.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It doesn't have a name as far as I know but I'll call it the redemption leitmotif, the descending arpeggios in the final scene of Parsifal. It's kind of a mix of the faith motiv and Kundry's/ the flowermaidens' capricious tonality. First appears when Kundry is christened.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I love the treasure motif. Depicts growing capital taking over the world.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Wagner ultimately lost by siring a bunch of gays.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Notice how painters were the instagram filters of their time?

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    is Corruption (1983) good adaptation of Wagner?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's for the best to ignore post-war Germany.

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