New Union Treaty

>SSRs in red supported successor state to the USSR
>SSRs in orange supported it until the August coup
>SSRs in black declared independence and declined
If the August Coup never happened, could this have been a successful state?

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  1. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe, but unlikely

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >If the August Coup never happened, could this have been a successful state?
      No. You have to understand that the USSR was living on borrowed time for much of the 80s and mostly held together as long as it did due to simple inertia. The USSR of the 80s was a shell of its former self. The leadership and people had lost faith in the ideology it was founded on, the economy was a mess, state industry was being pillaged wholesale, the education system broke down, the military was hollowed out and the regional administration basically collapsed.
      Had the New Union Treaty come into effect, at best you would have a interim state that nobody took seriously and -optimistically- would have limped along for a year or two before balkanizing. If anything this would have been a much worse outcome then what we got historically, due to many of those new nations having Balkan tier historical grudges against each other and most would have had access to nuclear, chemical and perhaps even biological weapons.

      Some good books on the USSR's decline and subsequent collapse?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Use google you frickin' moron

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Do use google.
        I have a ton of great books about Putin however.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Not books. But if you want to watch something that covers the hollowing out and collapse of the USSR, then HyperNormalisation and Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis are some good documentaries. If you liked those previous Curtis documentaries, then TraumaZone is another good option. Just be aware with TraumaZone that it is around seven hours of archive footage of the USSR, organized chronologically to highlight its decay and collapse with minimal commentary.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Serhii Plokhy's The Last Empire: The Final Days of the Soviet Union was pretty good for the period of the collapse itself, though keep in mind due to his argument and his interests he places more focus on Ukraine than other works would (though I found his points convincing)

        could the RUBK plan have worked? federal union of russia, belarus, ukraine and kazakh ssr?

        if they could have convinced Ukraine to remain in the Union then I do think a union of Belarus/Russia/Ukraine/the Central Asian SSRs would've been viable. But it would've been a tall order, remember they voted by like 90%, even in Crimea, for independence in December of 91

  2. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why were Caucasians so mad? I understand Baltics had an actual history of self government in the 1920s and 30s so it makes sense they would be the most independent minded, but what pissed Georgians off in 1991?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      The Caucasus has one of the longest histories in the world of tiny, isolated ethnic groups waging war against each other. The USSR forced a ton of them together and as a result when it fell apart so did the Caucasus to the point to where it was the only part of the USSR outside of Tajikistan to fall into open conventional warfare.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      There was a masacre on armeniaks in the azeri capital and the initial soviet response to that was just putting their hands in their pockets and looking on

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Georgia
      A bunch of convluted weird shit mostly related to Russia being very clingy and South Ossetians/Abkhaz wanting to remain, plus a bunch of other stuff involving the mafia. Georgia is a very strange country.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Civil_War

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      1. Georgia was independent for hundreds of years before the russians came. They were also independent for 4 years after WW1, until the bolsheviks conquered them and gave some of their land to Russia, Armenia, Azerbedzjan and Turkey

      2. Russians forced the georgian church to become part of the russian church and forbade services in Georgian

      3. Russians gave less rights to georgians living in the Abkhaz and Osset ASSR, even though they were the plurality there

      4. Russians tried to add russian as an official language in the georgian republic.

  3. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >If the August Coup never happened, could this have been a successful state?
    No. You have to understand that the USSR was living on borrowed time for much of the 80s and mostly held together as long as it did due to simple inertia. The USSR of the 80s was a shell of its former self. The leadership and people had lost faith in the ideology it was founded on, the economy was a mess, state industry was being pillaged wholesale, the education system broke down, the military was hollowed out and the regional administration basically collapsed.
    Had the New Union Treaty come into effect, at best you would have a interim state that nobody took seriously and -optimistically- would have limped along for a year or two before balkanizing. If anything this would have been a much worse outcome then what we got historically, due to many of those new nations having Balkan tier historical grudges against each other and most would have had access to nuclear, chemical and perhaps even biological weapons.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Makes sense. Yugoslavia but bigger and badder.
      I feel like Russia could have clung onto Central Asia even if it lost the Caucasus and Ukraine/Belarus.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Russian Communists did want to do that back in the 90s. They tried to declare the dissolution of the Union illegal. Which is a casus belli against any independent republic of the FSU. That would be a disaster.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >I feel like Russia could have clung onto Central Asia
        No. They had enormous birthrate and by 90s pretty much replaced Russians there they were the most underdeveloped part of the USSR and many of them were very wild

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          what race are you?

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          The vast majority of Central Asian states wanted to preserve some sort of union with Russia, I imagine it wouldn't be treated as a 'Greater Russia' type deal.

          There was a masacre on armeniaks in the azeri capital and the initial soviet response to that was just putting their hands in their pockets and looking on

          Don't forget the Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict starting in the late 80s.

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The vast majority of Central Asian states wanted to preserve some sort of union with Russia
            It'd be super interesting if this worked out. Russia would be insanely rich, Gulf States tier probably.

  4. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    A New Union was actually created in the form of the CIS. It went nowhere because the members of the organization had no idea what to do with it.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Indeed, but I'm particularly talking about the Union of Soviet States(USS) plan that Gorb hatched. Basically, it'd be NATO and the EU combined with a common military and currency but everything else being independent(in theory).

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Nothing about the Gorbachev's plan made it credible.The republics weren't sure about it, the union officials were very much against it too (which led to August 1991).

  5. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >supported
    Not really, as there was overwhelming demand for independence. This situation was very reminiscent of the of the one that russian provisonal government/republic found itself in 1917.

  6. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I just want the Soviet flavoured ice cream man, this new line of nu-nationalist trad Christian Putin LARP is hot garbage.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Silly you, they didn't have Ice Cream in the Soviet Union

      >supported
      Not really, as there was overwhelming demand for independence. This situation was very reminiscent of the of the one that russian provisonal government/republic found itself in 1917.

      But even Ukraine supported Union until the August Coup?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        I think he's saying any union would have been a very lose one without much effective central control

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Ukraine supported sort of a loose confederation. Akin to what was negotiated in December 1991. Even their questionnaire at March 1991 referendum was a bit different. It asked "Do you agree that Ukraine should be part of a Union of Soviet sovereign states on the basis on the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine?"

        The thing with Ukraine was that, unlike Yeltsin's Russia, it was run by very conservative elites. Soviet Ukraine used to be the stalwart of the Brezhnevist regime. And the more liberal Ukraine was getting, the less unionist it was destined to become. To reform the USSR effectively you needed both Russia and Ukraine fully commited to the process. And neither of them really gave a frick about either the Union or each other. That entire system worked only when it was a post-totalitarian dictatorship of the Communist Party. When they tried to run the Soviet Union as an actual federation led by national Supreme Soviets it simply fell apart. It was a weird post-colonial abomination that never meant to be.

  7. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >let your industrial heartland in Ukraine go
    >only the welfare rats in central Asia want to stay
    No wonder they fricked off and went wirh Russia alone

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      TBF they wanted to stay by a larger margin than even Russia before the August Schizos tried to start a boogaloo

      I think he's saying any union would have been a very lose one without much effective central control

      Yeah, probably. It'd probably be like India,

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Not the EU?

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          There'd be more direct control than the EU but it'd be a corrupt broken mess

  8. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Georgia without Abkhazia and Ossetia has such ugly borders it hurts to look at

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Very

      Ukraine supported sort of a loose confederation. Akin to what was negotiated in December 1991. Even their questionnaire at March 1991 referendum was a bit different. It asked "Do you agree that Ukraine should be part of a Union of Soviet sovereign states on the basis on the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine?"

      The thing with Ukraine was that, unlike Yeltsin's Russia, it was run by very conservative elites. Soviet Ukraine used to be the stalwart of the Brezhnevist regime. And the more liberal Ukraine was getting, the less unionist it was destined to become. To reform the USSR effectively you needed both Russia and Ukraine fully commited to the process. And neither of them really gave a frick about either the Union or each other. That entire system worked only when it was a post-totalitarian dictatorship of the Communist Party. When they tried to run the Soviet Union as an actual federation led by national Supreme Soviets it simply fell apart. It was a weird post-colonial abomination that never meant to be.

      Indeed, I'm proposing that this loose confederation happened

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        It did happen. And it was politically dead on arrival.

        They tried another project one more time back in 2010 and it was far more successful.It didn't work well for Ukraine though, when Yanukovych tried to join it back in 2014.

  9. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    ?si=nII_esnIHSgqot7W
    Late ussr had some... problems

  10. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    maybe if they restored the romanovs to the throne

  11. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    could the RUBK plan have worked? federal union of russia, belarus, ukraine and kazakh ssr?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Maybe

  12. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    not without a major purge of liberals in the SSRs, the west would have stirred up all kinds of chaos a la yugoslavia

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