OK I FINISHED READING IT A SECOND TIME LIKE YOU FRICKERS TOLD ME TO

AND I'M STILL PISSED
NOWHERE DOES IT EXPLAIN WHO WAS SENDING OUT THE TAPES OR WHY HIMSELF ELIMINATED HIS OWN MAP
I THINK IT WAS THE MOLD THAT MADE HAL TRIP BECAUSE HE SAID IT MUST HAVE BEEN SOMETHING HE ATE
BUT ALSO THEN BUT WHATEVER HAPPEND TO BASED PEMULIS
YES MY CAPS LOCK KEY IS STILL BROKEN BUT WE DON'T NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You're really missing the point, Original Poster

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      THE POINT IS THAT STORIES SHOULD HAVE AN ENDING, ESPECIALLY WHEN I READ ALMOST 1,000 PAGES (TWICE) TO GET TO IT.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >almost 1,000
        So you didn't read all of it?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          THE STORY ITSELF IS JUST SHY OF 1,000, IT'S 1,970-1,980 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND YES, I DID READ ALL THE NOTES AND ESOTERICA AND SHIT AND IT STILL DIDN'T EXPLAIN SHIT. HE CAN PUT THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION FOR EVERY FRICKING DRUG KNOWN TO MAN IN THE APPENDICES BUT NOT THE ACTUAL CLIMAX TO THE FRICKING STORY?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Ok, it's been nearly 10 years since I last read this, but wasn't Madame Psychosis the one who was sending out the tapes? And Himself eliminated his own map when he found out she was fricking his son (Orin? I can't remember the names)? Yes, Hal started tripping at the end because he ate the mold.

            DFW explicitly said the story does have an ending, it just happens after the last page and he wants the reader to figure it out. His hint was that the book was cyclical.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Ok, it's been nearly 10 years since I last read this, but wasn't Madame Psychosis the one who was sending out the tapes?
            UNLIKELY, SHE HAD NO MOTIVATION AND WAS HOOKED ON CRACK AND TRYING TO KILL HERSELF AS THE TAPES WERE GOING OUT
            >And Himself eliminated his own map when he found out she was fricking his son (Orin? I can't remember the names)?
            HIMSELF MET HER BECAUSE SHE WAS ORIN'S GF, SHE NEVER FRICKED JOI
            >Yes, Hal started tripping at the end because he ate the mold.
            IT STILL SEEMS OBTUSE, AND EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THAT MOLD COULD SURVIVE IN SOMEONE'S MOUT FOR LIKE 15 YEARS LIKE THAT (ALTHOUGH THE BOOK DOES GO OUT OF THE WAY TO SAY THAT BOTH HIMSELF AND HAL HAVE EXTREMELY LOW SPIT PRODUCTION).

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I thought Hal found the mold in his dorm ceiling shortly before the end of the novel and ate it then. He ate some as a kind and that gave him the 'tism, but he was supposed to eat it again and watch the tape to make him better or something like that. My memories of this are super hazy and I guess I should just reread it. It's been long enough that I remember the main plot points, but none of the details.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I thought Hal found the mold in his dorm ceiling shortly before the end of the novel and ate it then.
            NO PEMULIS STORED THE PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS IN THE CEILING (IT WAS IMPLIED THAT THE DRUGS WERE DERIVED FROM THE SAME MOLD THAT HAL ATE WHEN HE WAS A TODDLER) AND THEY WERE MYSTERIOUSLY MISSING NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK WITH NO EXPLANATION GIVEN
            >He ate some as a kind and that gave him the 'tism, but he was supposed to eat it again and watch the tape to make him better or something like that. My memories of this are super hazy and I guess I should just reread it. It's been long enough that I remember the main plot points, but none of the details.
            I JUST REREAD IT AND IT DIDN'T MAKE ANYTHING CLEARER, BUT IF YOU WANT TO TAKE A WHACK AT IT AND COME BACK WITH SOME ANSWERS THEN I WON'T STOP YOU

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >but wasn't Madame Psychosis the one who was sending out the tapes?
            It was Orin, wasn't it? Wasn't he targeting people that fricked his Mom?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            ORIN IS THE MOST LIKELY CANDIDATE
            BUT THEN ALSO BUT HOW DID HE KNOW WHAT WAS ON THE TAPES AND WHAT IT WOULD DO? DID HE WATCH IT? HE WASN'T THE BRIGHTEST BULB IN THE BULB BOX.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The story reveals itself the infinite time you read it :^)

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Infinite
        >should have an ending

        heh, you got played TWICE

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          this kek
          The book is a joke itself. Ramblings of a mentally ill person with no point whatsoever.
          It's the worst type of book.
          The author has a few (mildly) interesting thoughts/ideas and the writes and writes and writes just to find a place to fit the ideas into the story.
          It's like a low rent version of Rand with even less ideas.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          lel, jested

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, no you need to read it a third time! That’s when it starts to make sense. Don’t get filtered.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      NAH FRICK THAT AND FRICK YOU. MAYBE IN A FEW YEARS BUT I COMBED THE FRICKER AND THERE ARE STILL NO DEFINITIVE ANSWERS IN THE ENTIRE TEXT. AND I'M MAD AS HELL ABOUT IT.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You can skip the third readthrough to be honest, it's the fourth readthrough where things really start to make sense.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        DO YOU THINK THIS IS A MCFRICKING GAME

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I told you that you could keep asking these people for answers but that you would be doing so to no avail. You are proving yourself to be incapable of getting a single fact through that apparently elevator-proof head of yours. To restate: the answers you are looking for are not in the book itself but in the set of books it alludes to. E.g, this is not the place to look. I can see why having to download discord would be a rather unpleasant pill to swallow but Pride cometh and all that. Good on you for re-reading it, though, even if it would have been a lot less time intensive to discuss it. Just wait a few years and pay for the explanation like everyone else. Also I’ll just put a disclaimer here that I do not wade into this cesspool regularly and that this comment from years prior to any media presence should not be taken as as general indicator of my character nor my habits.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            THE internet police ARE EN ROUTE TO YOUR LOCATION, CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME

            No worries anon. It is a tough nut to crack, but if you read it a third time all will become clear.

            I'M NOT FRICKING READING IT A THIRD FRICKING TIME IN A ROW, FRICK OFF

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Samegay! I'm onto you
            These threads are all an ad campaign to sell your shitty explination

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Very unrelated to OP's post, but this scene always cracks me up

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Read it again, but don't rush it this time (lmao).

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I TOOK THREE WEEKS YOU LITTLE b***h

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/ijend this explains everything

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I READ THIS MULTIPLE TIMES AND AM STILL UNCONVINCED
      ALSO IT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHAT CAUSED HAL TO LOSE HIS SHIT IN THE FIRST PLACE
      ALSO IT STATES WITHOUT BASIS THAT HIMSELF CREATED MADAME PSYCHOSIS (THE DRUG) WHEN HE NEVER HAD ANY CHEMISTRY BACKGROUND

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This is the shining glimmer of hope that you can move beyond your plotgay ways but you still refuse to see characters as their function, how they serve to explore theme and are more than just characters contained in a plot. I made a couple effort posts recently regarding this, they might help you.
        https://warosu.org/lit/thread/23491315
        Plot is answered through theme and it is all there in the book if you are willing to move past plot.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I'M GOING TO DIG UP DFW AND RAPE HIS CORPSE UNTIL I GET SOME ANSWERS, WHERE'S HE BURIED
    >DFW WAS CREMATED
    ALRIGHT FRICK I NEED A PLAN B

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You dont remember the grave robbing scene? The “ending” is that the gentle admin is overthrown and the terrorists win using the entertainment

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's just a book. Calm down, homosexual.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So should I read or nah?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      IT'S GOT SOME GREAT STORIES IN IT BUT THE MAIN PLOT NEVER GETTING RESOLVED REALLY STICKS IN MY CRAW

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You have to read it at least 3 times.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      FRICK YOU

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >OR WHY HIMSELF ELIMINATED HIS OWN MAP
    god damnit anon thans for reminding how much fun I had reading that book. Maybe I should read it again.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      IT WAS REMARKABLY WELL-WRITTEN, I'M JUST PISSED THAT HE DIDN'T RESOLVE THE CENTRAL PLOT AT ALL TO MAKE SOME GAY POINT ABOUT ENTERTAINMENT BEING BAD OR SOME SHIT

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        maybe once you figure this one out you can have a stab at Mr. Squishy, which stab should, given the inflatable nature of the character, be taken purely figuratively. Still have no clue about the exact nature of events in that one despite reading it twice.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No worries anon. It is a tough nut to crack, but if you read it a third time all will become clear.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Read it backwards now. Pat very specially attention to the mention of a blue lampshade. Trust me it will all make sense

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Is this a mulholland drive reference

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, obviously so

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >.S.U Winthrop Sanofi® — NX-Talwin 388

      >.Mydol grade-nuclear like of sort ,dysmenorrhea for )enough oddly( mostly — Davis-Parke® — Ponstel as .S.U the in marketed analgesic narc-non A .a

      >.syringes filled-pre saline-.20ml/.7ml ,serum yellow-Glo-Day — PX-Talwin name-trade /w — .Inc ,Canada ,Winthrop Sanofi® — acid3 mefenamic and hydrochloride pentazocine is Sunshine ,DMZ potent incredibly the and opium Vietnamese raw after cop-street to thing hardest-third s'Boston Metro 387

      >.syringes filled-pre saline-.2Oml/.ml 2 — .Pharm DuPont® — antagonists narcotic of missile Exocet the ,hydrochloride Nalaxone 386

      >.antibiotics negative-gram of missile Cruise the ,hyclate doxycycline s'Davis-Parke ,Doryx meaning Probably 385

      >.Clydesdale sized-good a anxiolytize to enough is day/.mg 25 which of ,tranq anxiety-anti venerable a — Labs Aherst-Wyeth® — Lorazepam .a.k.A 384

      >.Issues related-compulsivity and ,-codependency ,-enmeshment for facility FL Park Winter 383

      >.Wayne with playing of tension the to adding ,distracting but creepy only not is feeling which ,.etc ,pupils his of diameter the ,pressure blood and heartrate his of also but CNS voluntary his of just not there out control has Wayne that feeling creepy the gets always he Wayne with court-on is Hal when ,alongside double .S.U Winthrop Sanofi® — NX-Talwin 388

      >.Mydol grade-nuclear like of sort ,dysmenorrhea for )enough oddly( mostly — Davis-Parke® — Ponstel as .S.U the in marketed analgesic narc-non A .a

      >.syringes filled-pre saline-.20ml/.7ml ,serum yellow-Glo-Day — PX-Talwin name-trade /w — .Inc ,Canada ,Winthrop Sanofi® — acid3 mefenamic and hydrochloride pentazocine is Sunshine ,DMZ potent incredibly the and opium Vietnamese raw after cop-street to thing hardest-third s'Boston Metro 387

      >.syringes filled-pre saline-.2Oml/.ml 2 — .Pharm DuPont® — antagonists narcotic of missile Exocet the ,hydrochloride Nalaxone 386

      >.antibiotics negative-gram of missile Cruise the ,hyclate doxycycline s'Davis-Parke ,Doryx meaning Probably 385

      >.Clydesdale sized-good a anxiolytize to enough is day/.mg 25 which of ,tranq anxiety-anti venerable a — Labs Aherst-Wyeth® — Lorazepam .a.k.A 384

      >.Issues related-compulsivity and ,-codependency ,-enmeshment for facility FL Park Winter 383

      >.Wayne with playing of tension the to adding ,distracting but creepy only not is feeling which ,.etc ,pupils his of diameter the ,pressure blood and heartrate his of also but CNS voluntary his of just not there out control has Wayne that feeling creepy the gets always he Wayne with court-on is Hal when ,alongside doubles or him against singles in Whether 382s or him against singles in Whether 382

      This really does not seem to help and just seems confusing, don't think I will contine.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      ¡No hay Banda!

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >THE POINT IS THAT STORIES SHOULD HAVE AN ENDING
    The main of your second thread now is that you’re a plotgay. A lot of anons here who are seriously into literature don’t read purely for story. Infinite Jest has more to say about addiction etc. It can be more fun to leave unanswered questions to the imagination. Also you need to read the book more than twice, at least five times, no wonder you literally shaking.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Who was sending out the tapes?
    Just read whatever the J.O.I. filmography endnote says about Infinite Jest (V), it was probably Orin not knowing what was in there.
    >What happened to based Pemulis?
    That's the only question that won't let me sleep at night.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What else is supposed to happen to a recently expelled young tennis player? I see no mystery here

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Who was sending out the tapes?
        Just read whatever the J.O.I. filmography endnote says about Infinite Jest (V), it was probably Orin not knowing what was in there.
        >What happened to based Pemulis?
        That's the only question that won't let me sleep at night.

        I guess its implied he goes back to allston to finish out his education at a public high school or possibly turn tricks like his gay brother

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Pemulis loses the one thing which was keeping him from turning into addict, tennis. We say the result of this with Gately, without football what happened to him? The difference here is that Pemulis would be more likely become a dealer instead of muscle but the end result would be more or less the same. The characters in IJ are all on the same narrow path with few options, best you can do is be like Schacht and just accept your place.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It’s been a while, but iirc:

    Himself was attempting to destroy the master copy of the Entertainment, which was inside his head. Also, he was depressed and crazy.

    The mold Hal ate as a child is what made him robotic and depressed. The drug he ingested later because of Pemulis was synthesized from that mold and interacted with it to reverse Hal’s symptoms: he was once a brilliant communicator with nothing to communicate, now he has inferiority but cannot speak or emote coherently.

    Orin was sending out the tapes. It’s all but confirmed at some point but it’s obvious early on if you pay attention, Hal interrupts one of Orin’s stories to ask why he’s at the post office sending out “snail mail.” He was specifically targeting old enemies and critics of Himself. It’s also the reason he’s the one the wheelchair assassins kidnap in the end, to learn where the master copy is.

    The “missing end” of the story is this: Hal loses the ability to communicate and Gately relapses. They meet in the hospital and eventually go to the Concavity to find the hidden copy of the Entertainment, but the wheelchair assassins beat them to it and sent it out as an act of terrorism, triggering a war within ONAN.

    I was pretty mad the first time I finished Infinite Jest as well, but all the clues are there if you look imo

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      this is the most coherent answer that OP is gonna get.

      Whether Gately 'relapsed' or not is up for interpretation, but he was definitely given real painkillers during his surgery regardless of his consent, the surgery would have been impossible otherwise. Whether that ruins his sober streak and he fully relapses or he is able to resist the temptation to fully return to his old ways is anyone's guess (though, based on his prophetic vision of traveling to the concavity with Wayne, Hal, and Joelle, I'm guessing he actually does stay clean after his surgery)

      What's really gonna cook your noodle is thinking about what the hell Lyle and JOI's ghost are up to. The entire plot of the novel has been subtly architected by them for some reason, seemingly in relation to Hal and stopping him from suffering the same fate as JOI. The only person I've ever seen talk about this layer of the story is Schwartz, but I think he misses the mark. Nobody else gives us a frick lmao. Ask questions like these and you're a "plotgay" (i.e. a smart person who can actually assemble non-linearly presented events in their head and then ask questions a make deductions based on them)

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        All this assumes authors have a clue what they are writing.
        And they don't.

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >WHY WOULD HE SEND THE ENTERTAINMENT TO HIS FATHER'S KEKOLDERS IF HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT DID
    I told you to read the J.O.I. filmography endnote on Infinite Jest (V) that's explained there.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >ESSENTIALLY MARIO AND HAL'S BEST FRIEND
    Essentially being the key word, Pemulis does not really see it that way and is ultimately using them both, the friendship protects him and he knows he would have been kicked out long ago without it. Pemulis blackmails the person most important to Hal and Mario just so he can do drugs and when it blows up in his face he expects Hal to fix it all for him and does not even notice Hal is in a fairly serious psychological nose dive, he only sees himself. Pemulis only cares about Pemulis and we see that demonstrated over and over, a friend would never have done what Pemulis did.

    From the other direction we never really see evidence that Pemulis is all that important to Hal beyond being a source for pot and a not very good math tutor, it is a friendship of convince for him which would die once they left ETA in a year because Pemulis does not have the grades for college or the skill on the field to make it. And a big part of Hal's whole psychological nose dive during the last third of the book is him realizing that he has no friends, no one knows him and no one really hears him because Himself was right, Hal doesn't speak, he just performs in every aspect of life, never says anything and just delivers the goods to the best of his ability. For Mario it is mostly just a shared interest and the shared space of Himself's lab, Schtitt is far more a friend to Mario than Pemulis and the one relationship Mario has which could really be called a friendship, they are two people who genuinely enjoy each others presence.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      PEMULIS PUT ON THE BLARNEYING OF A LIFETIME FOR HAL TO GET THE DATE OF THE PISS TESTS PUSHED OFF A MONTH

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >'Blarney wasn't why we got it, Inc, is the thing.’

        >is ultimately using them both
        I ALSO DON'T THINK THIS IS TRUE, ESPECIALLY WITH MARIO. HE AND MARIO BONDED OVER A GENUINE LOVE FOR FILMMAKING.

        I said shared interest and space but Pemulis does not love film, he may have at one time before drugs but that is long gone and he only does it to get the scholarship and access to the lab which he needs Mario's help to get and even then barely manages. His helping Mario is mostly about feeding his own ego which is overinflated and needs constant feeding.

        >M. M. Pemulis, whose middle name is Mathew (sic), has the highest Stanford-Bïnet of any kid on academic probation ever at the Academy. Hal Incandenza's most valiant efforts barely get Pemulis through Mrs. I's triad of required Grammars and Soma R.-L.-O. Chawaf's heady Literature of Discipline, because Pemulis, who claims he sees every third word upside-down, actually just has a born tech-science wienie's congenital impatience with the referential murkiness and inelegance of verbal systems. His early tennis promise quick-peaking and it's turned out a bit dilettantish, Pemulis's real enduring gift is for math and hard science, and his scholarship is the coveted James O. Incandenza Geometrical Optics Scholarship, of which there is only one, and which each term Pemulis manages to avoid losing by just one dento-dermal layer of overall G.P.A., and which gives him sanctioned access to all the late director's lenses and equipment, some of which turn out to be useful to unrelated enterprises. Mario's the only other person sharing the optic-and-editing labs off the main tunnel, and the two have the kind of transpersonal bond that shared interests and mutual advantage can inspire: if Mario's not helping Pemulis fabricate the products of independent-optical-study work M.P. isn't really much into doing — you should see the boy with a convex lens, Avril likes to say within Mario's hearing; he's like a fish in brine — then Pemulis is giving Mario, who's a film-nut but no great tech-mind, serious help with cinemo-optical praxis, the physics of focal-length and reflective compounds — you should see Pemulis with an emulsion curve, yawning blasély under his bill-reversed yachting hat and scratching an armpit, juggling differentials like a boy born to wear a pocket-protector and high-water corduroys and electrician's tape on his hornrims' temples, asking Mario if he knows what you call three Canadians copulating on a snowmobile. Mario and his brother Hal both consider Pemulis a good friend, though friendship at E.T.A. is non-negotiable currency.

        That last line is an important one and shows what friendships are at ETA, they are that first class stamp you bought 10 years ago which could have mailed a first class letter 10 years ago but its value never changes despite inflation and can't even be used to mail a postcard now. There is a good deal in the novel about what friendships are at ETA and they are not friendships,

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >There is a good deal in the novel about what friendships are at ETA and they are not friendships,
          THAT IS IN REFERENCE TO THE PLAYERS ALL BEING IN COMPETITION WITH EACH OTHER, AND MARIO IS NOT A PLAYER

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >THAT IS IN REFERENCE TO THE PLAYERS ALL BEING IN COMPETITION WITH EACH OTHER
            No it's not. Like I said, there is a good amount on this spread throughout the novel, they bond over common enemies (the staff or other students, fears in general) when young and the friendship never really progresses beyond that, hence Hal and Pemulis not having any clue about who the other is (or themselves). You are making a connection through a word and ignoring everything else on the subject as well as ignoring the context of that word, the semantics are quite different.
            >AND MARIO IS NOT A PLAYER
            He is still subject to the social dynamics of ETA when it comes to socializing with the students, which is demonstrated over and over with the bits of Mario interacting with the students.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            HOW WAS THE SS MALEFICENT KENT TRYING TO SOCIAL CLIMB BY GRABBING AT MARIO'S DICK AND SHOWING HIM HER YIN-YANG

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Who said anything about friendship at ETA being about climbing the social ladder?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            WHATEVER SOCIOPATHIC SOCIAL CURRENCY SHIT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ANALYZE THEIR FRIENDSHIPS AND THE SOCIAL STRUCTURE AT ETA AS TRANSACTIONAL AND COMPETITIVE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY FRIENDS AND HAL WOULDN'T MOURN PEMULIS' LOSS OR VICE-VERSA. ALSO, DON GATELY WAS A HERO, WHETHER HE, YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE RECOGNIZES IT OR NOT.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >is ultimately using them both
      I ALSO DON'T THINK THIS IS TRUE, ESPECIALLY WITH MARIO. HE AND MARIO BONDED OVER A GENUINE LOVE FOR FILMMAKING.

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    ALSO BUT THEN SO WHAT THE FRICK IS BIG RED SODA WATER

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >less than 10 million tickets sold
    is the American reading public so obsessed with testimony?

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    HEY BUT SO DO YOU THINK AT THE END PEMULIS WAS GONNA BLOW HAL'S MIND BY TELLING HIM THAT JOHN WAYNE WAS BANGING HIS MOM BUT HAL ALREADY KNEW?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No, most everyone already knows that. Pemulis just want Hal to clean up the mess he made and is too caught up in himself to notice that Hal is in no shape to help him or realize that Hal would not help him because that would break the bounds of his relationship with his mother which is something he could never do.

      WHATEVER SOCIOPATHIC SOCIAL CURRENCY SHIT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ANALYZE THEIR FRIENDSHIPS AND THE SOCIAL STRUCTURE AT ETA AS TRANSACTIONAL AND COMPETITIVE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY FRIENDS AND HAL WOULDN'T MOURN PEMULIS' LOSS OR VICE-VERSA. ALSO, DON GATELY WAS A HERO, WHETHER HE, YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE RECOGNIZES IT OR NOT.

      Provide anything which shows them actually being friends. You are ignoring what friendship is at ETA which is well established and nothing in the novel suggests we should treat Hal and Pemulis' friendship any differently, a caveat is always added on such as in the paragraph I posted above.
      >HAL WOULDN'T MOURN PEMULIS' LOSS
      Hal knows Pemulis is out and he is not mourning that loss, just feels guilty because Avril being his mom exempted him from also being kicked out even though he probably would not have gotten kicked out even if he wasn't which he is aware of and acknowledges but the guilt is just an act, he is delivering the goods. Hal is jealous of Pemulis getting the boot, if Hal got the boot it would free him from him to give into pot and give up.
      >GATELY WAS A HERO,
      Gately would not agree. During the act he acknowledges he is letting the old Gately out and that his motives are not altruistic, avoiding the paper work which would result if Lenz got shot is more important to him than Lenz' life and really he would rather Lenz got what was coming to him. This is a fairly important thing to understand for the hospital bit and why he ultimately ends up reliving the demise of Fax, Gately is still the same person he was when he sat down at Mt Dilaudid, the one who takes the easy path over the right path. This is also the reason he avoids narcotics while in the hospital, he knows he is still the addict he used to be and not just in the AA sense of once and addict always an addict regardless of long you have been sober.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        OK SO BUT THEN BUT THAT'S A PRETTY BLEAK OUTLOOK, AND YES, I KNOW THE BOOK HAS ONE TOO. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT GATELY STEPPING UP AND SAVING A MAN'S LIFE IN PROTECTING THE HOUSE THAT HE WAS ASSIGNED TO PROTECT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A HERO.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          AND HE FOUGHT TAKING NARCOTICS WAY, WAY, WAY HARDER THAN ANYONE COULD BE REASONABLY EXPECTED TOO. DON WAS AND I BELIEVE IS COMMITTED TO TURNING HIS LIFE AROUND.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He did not step up for the house or Lenz or because it was right, he sat down at Mt. Dilaudid and that was the worst thing he could do for the house and himself.

          AND HE FOUGHT TAKING NARCOTICS WAY, WAY, WAY HARDER THAN ANYONE COULD BE REASONABLY EXPECTED TOO. DON WAS AND I BELIEVE IS COMMITTED TO TURNING HIS LIFE AROUND.

          Right, a reasonable person would have taken the narcotics, only a true addict would avoid that. Gately knows this, hence the dream/delusion of the Pakistani doctor being reasonable and explaining reason, the same Pakistani doctor who was present the first time he chose addiction over doing what was reasonable or right, the doctor who made him realize how he was culpable in his mother's demise and the first time he consciously chose the addiction. This is what he is confronting while laying there in the hospital, everything he blocked with drugs and all those things he never even tried to amends for and everything he has done since sobriety which he is ashamed of and knows proves he is still sitting at Mt. Dilaudid because the emotional pain is preferable to the physical pain. Ultimately he does confront all those things he has avoided in sobriety, all those things which kept him from true sobriety but we don't know if he ever confronts them willingly and attains that sobriety, if you believe he went with Hal to dig up Himself then he didn't confront them, he broke parole and gave up on AA/Ennet.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >He did not step up for the house or Lenz or because it was right, he sat down at Mt. Dilaudid and that was the worst thing he could do for the house and himself.
            THAT WAS JUST HIM RELIVING PAST TRAUMAS, WHICH IS A NECESSARY AND EXPECTED PART OF RECOVERY. LIKE LENZ WITH HIS CHILDHOOD SHENANIGANS.
            >if you believe he went with Hal to dig up Himself then he didn't confront them, he broke parole and gave up on AA/Ennet.
            I'LL ADMIT I HADN'T CONSIDERED THIS, IT GIVES ME A LOT TO THINK ABOUT. THOUGH IF HE WAS DOING IT TO KEEP IT OUT OF THE HANDS OF INTERNATIONAL TERRORISTS TO HARM INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH, HE WAS STILL DOING THE RIGHT THING. IT DOESN'T MEAN HE GAVE UP SOBRIETY IN HIS HEART OR HIS COMMITMENT TO IT. I FIND THE PARALLELS BETWEEN HAL'S INTERNAL NARRATION OF BLOOD SISTER: ONE TOUGH NONE AND DON GATELY'S SITUATION A FASCINATING META COMMENTARY, BUT ALSO JUST 90'S GEN-X DOUCHEY "LOOK AT ME I'M BEING SELF-AWARE" TOOLERY.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >LIKE LENZ WITH HIS CHILDHOOD SHENANIGANS.
            NOT LENZ, THE OTHER GUY, TINY.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Gately was not recovering, he was using emotional pain to avoid physical pain, which he acknowledges, that he is just trading emotional pain for the demerol he would prefer. Gately did not do what was right, the outcome which could be viewed as being right was just a side effect of doing what was easy. Gately never had sobriety, this is what he is confronting in the hospital and part of why it is so effective at blocking the pain.
            >BUT ALSO JUST 90'S GEN-X DOUCHEY "LOOK AT ME I'M BEING SELF-AWARE" TOOLERY.
            Hal and Gately's bits in the last third are deeply tied together and heavily inform each other. This is far from a 90s gen-x thing and a standard technique of literature for over a century. A basic structure of IJ is just using every character as exposition of theme, Knut Hamsun did this in Growth of the Soil back in 1917. This is part of DFWs trick for making most every character right down to many minor characters seem alive and have depth and agency, he gives the same basic information for every character and we naturally extrapolate their lives from the characters which he goes into depth on, we find the parallels. If you reread your posts you will see you have been drawing those parallels without even realizing.

            >LIKE LENZ WITH HIS CHILDHOOD SHENANIGANS.
            NOT LENZ, THE OTHER GUY, TINY.

            Tiny and the other visitors provide a very important bit of exposition on theme and Gately, mainly through Gately's realizations about their visits vs when they talked to him at the house. Compare Tiny unloading at the hospital to Joelle talking to Gately at Ennet.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            OK BUT LIKE YOUR OUTLOOK IS DEPRESSING AF DUDE, GATELY IS A HERO. ONCE YOU'RE AN ADDICT YOU'RE AN ADDICT FOR LIFE, IT'S NOT LIKE THERE'S A CURE. BUT HE WAS WORKING THE PROGRAM AND HAD MADE GREAT PROGRESS.

            Just noticed I misread your post.
            >THOUGH IF HE WAS DOING IT TO KEEP IT OUT OF THE HANDS OF INTERNATIONAL TERRORISTS TO HARM INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH
            You are working under the assumption that digging up the head happened and ignoring the narrator, assuming everything the narrator says is true and he is 100% reliable. This is not the whole reliable/unreliable narrator thing, this is the human narrator who we have to treat like a human and not just reduce to reliable or unreliable, we have to take the time to understand him and what he is going through and his motives and failings and dreams and goals, just like any other character. The narrator strongly parallels Hal and we can even make a decent case for the narrator being Hal which gives some interesting results technique wise but does not change much in the overall novel and introduces some issues, maybe I will go into that later. Main things to remember are that the narrator is no different than any other character in the novel and used towards the same end, we can't trust the narrator, just understand him.

            >ignoring the narrator, assuming everything the narrator says is true and he is 100% reliable
            CONSIDERING HE DESCRIBED HIMSELF AND LYLE PERFECTLY WHILE NEVER HAVING MET THEM IN LIFE I ASSUME WE CAN ACCEPT SOME SUPERNATURAL ELEMENS INCLUDING PRECOGNITION

            >.S.U Winthrop Sanofi® — NX-Talwin 388

            >.Mydol grade-nuclear like of sort ,dysmenorrhea for )enough oddly( mostly — Davis-Parke® — Ponstel as .S.U the in marketed analgesic narc-non A .a

            >.syringes filled-pre saline-.20ml/.7ml ,serum yellow-Glo-Day — PX-Talwin name-trade /w — .Inc ,Canada ,Winthrop Sanofi® — acid3 mefenamic and hydrochloride pentazocine is Sunshine ,DMZ potent incredibly the and opium Vietnamese raw after cop-street to thing hardest-third s'Boston Metro 387

            >.syringes filled-pre saline-.2Oml/.ml 2 — .Pharm DuPont® — antagonists narcotic of missile Exocet the ,hydrochloride Nalaxone 386

            >.antibiotics negative-gram of missile Cruise the ,hyclate doxycycline s'Davis-Parke ,Doryx meaning Probably 385

            >.Clydesdale sized-good a anxiolytize to enough is day/.mg 25 which of ,tranq anxiety-anti venerable a — Labs Aherst-Wyeth® — Lorazepam .a.k.A 384

            >.Issues related-compulsivity and ,-codependency ,-enmeshment for facility FL Park Winter 383

            >.Wayne with playing of tension the to adding ,distracting but creepy only not is feeling which ,.etc ,pupils his of diameter the ,pressure blood and heartrate his of also but CNS voluntary his of just not there out control has Wayne that feeling creepy the gets always he Wayne with court-on is Hal when ,alongside double .S.U Winthrop Sanofi® — NX-Talwin 388

            >.Mydol grade-nuclear like of sort ,dysmenorrhea for )enough oddly( mostly — Davis-Parke® — Ponstel as .S.U the in marketed analgesic narc-non A .a

            >.syringes filled-pre saline-.20ml/.7ml ,serum yellow-Glo-Day — PX-Talwin name-trade /w — .Inc ,Canada ,Winthrop Sanofi® — acid3 mefenamic and hydrochloride pentazocine is Sunshine ,DMZ potent incredibly the and opium Vietnamese raw after cop-street to thing hardest-third s'Boston Metro 387

            >.syringes filled-pre saline-.2Oml/.ml 2 — .Pharm DuPont® — antagonists narcotic of missile Exocet the ,hydrochloride Nalaxone 386

            >.antibiotics negative-gram of missile Cruise the ,hyclate doxycycline s'Davis-Parke ,Doryx meaning Probably 385

            >.Clydesdale sized-good a anxiolytize to enough is day/.mg 25 which of ,tranq anxiety-anti venerable a — Labs Aherst-Wyeth® — Lorazepam .a.k.A 384

            >.Issues related-compulsivity and ,-codependency ,-enmeshment for facility FL Park Winter 383

            >.Wayne with playing of tension the to adding ,distracting but creepy only not is feeling which ,.etc ,pupils his of diameter the ,pressure blood and heartrate his of also but CNS voluntary his of just not there out control has Wayne that feeling creepy the gets always he Wayne with court-on is Hal when ,alongside doubles or him against singles in Whether 382s or him against singles in Whether 382

            This really does not seem to help and just seems confusing, don't think I will contine.

            KEK

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This aspect of the book is depressing and it is supposed to be. A hero is someone who does the right thing despite the consequences to himself, this is not Gately and he knows it, the path he chose was the one that would allow him to avoid the consequences he did not want to deal with which ironically forced him to face the consequences of what he had been avoiding all along. I already made the distinction between the sort of addict Gately is and the AA sort of addict and the book makes that distinction and Gately realizes that distinction both when in the thick of it and later in the hospital.
            >Gately stands quietly, wishing he felt different about potential trouble, less almost jolly. Late in Gately's Substance and burglary careers, when he'd felt so low about himself, he'd had sick little fantasies of saving somebody from harm, some innocent party, and getting killed in the process and getting eulogized at great length in bold-faced Globe print.
            Gately is still at that point when he'd felt so low about himself and has been lying to himself all along that he was getting better. This is the failing of the AA way which is just swapping one addiction for another that is more socially acceptable and less self destructive (sort of) but never really cures the problem and just says it can't be cured, not our fault. AA/Ennet is the same as ETA, it teaches how to perform and chase carrots for the sake of society at the cost of the individual, doing well when speaking at a meeting means you followed the forms even if what you said is not true and you will be rewarded for that and if you do it enough it will feel as good as the drugs which you once used to get your rewards. All AA really does is provide a different carrot to chase and the best it can offer is. To "make it" means pretty much the same thing at both ETA and in AA, at ETA they just are a little more specific and tack "to the show" on but they are talking about the same thing when you get down to it, one just plays for a room full of drug addicts and the other plays for a room full of tennis addicts.

            The narrator describing something accurately only shows that you are still thinking in the bipolar way of the narrator is either 100% reliable or 100% unreliable. But you can't say the narrator described Himself and Lyle perfectly, you have nothing but the narrators words to base that off of, you have no other perspective on the contents of the novel but his when you get down to it. Even if it was the case this does not mean you can assume the supernatural, certainly not precognition, the narrators time is linear and unfragmented, it does not follow the novel. The narrator is human and we have to take him as such or we get led astray, he has agency and motive and faults and weakness and is dealing with the same things as everyone else in the novel.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE ASSUMING A LOT. TO ME, DON GATELY'S MOTIVES AND ACTIAONS ARE BOTH HEROIC, IF FLAWED. IT SEEMS LIKE YOU, HE AND THE BOOK AT LARGE MAT BE SUFFERING SOME KIND OF IMPOSTER SYNDROME.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The assumption that I have made is that you are the sort of person who sees characters as something to pass judgement on, which I think is a fairly safe assumption and well supported by your posts across at least three threads. Nothing I said is not well supported in the book repeated over and over and over in different ways and perspectives to thoroughly explore the topics.

            That is about as best as I can offer here since you did not elaborate on what it seems like I was assuming,

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Nothing I said is not well supported in the book repeated over and over and over in different ways and perspectives to thoroughly explore the topics.
            GATELY RELAPSING IS CERTAINLY NOT SUPPORTED BY THE TEXT

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I never said he relapsed.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            OH OK IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE THEN. BUT SO OK BUT THEN I THINK GATELY IS STILL COMMITTED TO LIVING CLEAN AND SOBER. BASED ON HIS ACTIONS IN THE BOOK, AND THE TIME HE SPENT RUNNING ENNET HOUSE, AND THE HORROR OF WHAT HE SAW HAPPEN TO THE FAXMAN, HE SEEMS PRETTY EAGER TO NOT EVER GET BACK ON OPIOIDS.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >OH OK IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE THEN.
            It was probably you misinterpreting what I said.
            >BUT SO OK BUT THEN I THINK GATELY IS STILL COMMITTED TO LIVING CLEAN AND SOBER.
            Sober in the sense of without drugs.
            >BASED ON HIS ACTIONS IN THE BOOK,
            You are cherry picking actions which support what you want to believe, Gately repeatedly acknowledges that his actions are contrary to what he represents himself as, his map does not represent his territory.
            >AND THE TIME HE SPENT RUNNING ENNET HOUSE,
            That doesn't mean anything, part of what Gately realizes while in the hospital.
            >AND THE HORROR OF WHAT HE SAW HAPPEN TO THE FAXMAN,
            The horror for Gately is that he took the easy path, he could have saved Fax but he rolled up his sleeve instead. Same as what happened with Lenz, he took the easy path, that path being 'right' was just a side effect and really was just him letting the old Gately out to avoid the paper work and realizing that fantasy of saving someone likely getting killed in the process and getting eulogized at great length.
            >HE SEEMS PRETTY EAGER TO NOT EVER GET BACK ON OPIOIDS.
            But sobriety is more than just avoiding opiates or drugs, which is what Gately realizes in the hospital, that he never actually was sober, he just didn't do drugs.

            You should reread my posts, you are fixating on the current response and forgetting about what was said and not even considering that you may not have fully grasped or properly remembered what was said, moving the goalposts without realizing it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >But sobriety is more than just avoiding opiates or drugs
            NO IT'S LITERALLY NOT, THAT'S THE ACTUAL DEFINITION OF SOBRIETY

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            stop typing like you're a woman

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            OK I'LL TYPE LIKE YOU'RE A WOMAN

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            h-hot

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Actual definitions and societal contexts are different things anon. Yes, avoiding drugs is sobriety, but there is an entire cultural history and stigma to those processes. Do we seriously need to go into the history of AA? Of priestly vows? The 18th amendment? Opium wars?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            IDK MAN GATELY SEEMED LIKE HE WAS DOING REALLY WELL AND DEDICATED TO THE PRECEPTS OF AA

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You only understood Gately's interpretation of AA which was in turn only a particularized view of the specific view of DFW, who wasn't much for historical materialism. You only see the process of indoctrination and the forced cognitive friction it causes. It was a pretty cool set of scenes, with some really well crafted depictions, but it was such a narrow lens. Whenever you escape the trashcan of ideology, you are now simply in a much larger trashcan of ideology.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            YEAH HE WAS QUITE THE PESSIMISTIC homosexual, THAT'S PROBABLY WHY HE ELIMINATED HIS OWN MAP. BUT MY POINT REMAINS: BASED ON GATELY'S FIRST PERSON NARRATION, THE INFORMATION WE'RE GIVEN FROM OTHER CHARACTERS, AND HIS ACTIONS UP TO THE END OF THE BOOK, HE SEEMS VERY HEROIC IN HIS COMMITMENT TO RECOVERY AND SOBRIETY AND LEADING A BETTER LIFE IN GENERAL. ALSO IN MY HEADCANON HIM AND JOELLE LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Gately has no first person narration, when have some inner monologue relayed by the narrator but it is fairly unreliable, narrator is not in much better shape than Gately or Hal by that point in the novel.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Like I said, the novel makes a clear distinction between sobriety and AA sobriety and their relation to addiction, probably at least 50 pages in the novel dedicated to exploring this. The language of a novel is like the language between friends and family, goes beyond the dictionary. But lets see what OED 2nd has to say, seems like it would have authority when it comes to IJ. I will skip the usage examples since over 3000 characters.

            1. The quality of being sober or moderate in the indulgence of appetite; spec. moderation in the use of strong drink.
            2. Moderation in any respect; avoidance of excess or extravagance.
            3. Staidness, gravity, seriousness; soundness or saneness of judgement, etc.

            Seems you assumed the definition based off of societal contexts and ignored the idea of sobriety as presented in the text.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            SEEMS LIKE GATELY MEETS ALL THREE OF THOSE DEFINITIONS, wienerWIPE

            Gately has no first person narration, when have some inner monologue relayed by the narrator but it is fairly unreliable, narrator is not in much better shape than Gately or Hal by that point in the novel.

            >relayed by the narrator but it is fairly unreliable, narrator is not in much better shape than Gately or Hal by that point in the novel.
            I ALSO REJECT THE NOTION THAT THE NARRATOR IS HIMSELF OR AT ALL UNRELIABLE.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sure, he meets those definitions but those are not the definition you were using or the idea of sobriety as outlined in IJ.

            Compare the narrator in the early chapters to the later chapters, very different. In the start he is clear and concise and by the end he is constantly making errors most commonly in his use of free indirect speech but also in generally details, he even corrects his errors those times he catches them but by the end he almost never catches them (He hadn't literally said 'chill dusk.')

            Who is saying Himself is the narrator? Can't you follow your own thread?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Compare the narrator in the early chapters to the later chapters, very different. In the start he is clear and concise and by the end he is constantly making errors most commonly in his use of free indirect speech but also in generally details, he even corrects his errors those times he catches them but by the end he almost never catches them (He hadn't literally said 'chill dusk.')
            I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN THE NARRATOR FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK TO THE END OF THE BOOK
            >Who is saying Himself is the narrator?
            IT'S THE MOST POPULAR THEORY SO I WAS JUST THROWING IT OUT THERE
            >Can't you follow your own thread?
            YES BUT UNFORTUNATELY UNPLEASANT moronS LIKE YOURSELF SHIT IT UP

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE
            Really? Suppose not that surprising considering you think Gately narrates at times. Might want to learn what free indirect speech is and pay attention to its use on your next read, in the first third use is subtle and sparse and always used correctly, by the end it is hamfisted, common and often misused. Give the audiobook a listen, reader does a very good job and it should help you hear the subtitles of the language.
            >IT'S THE MOST POPULAR THEORY SO I WAS JUST THROWING IT OUT THERE
            So a strawman, got it.
            >YES BUT UNFORTUNATELY UNPLEASANT moronS LIKE YOURSELF SHIT IT UP
            And adhom but no waffle or goalpost moving which suggests you don't mean it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            YOU'RE AN INSUFFERABLE homosexual AND YOU'VE CONTRIBUTED NOTHING OF VALUE TO THE THREAD

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            And yet you keep responding and you have accepted most of what I have said as correct.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >And yet you keep responding
            SO DO YOU, moron
            >and you have accepted most of what I have said as correct.
            NOT AT ALL

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >SO DO YOU, moron
            And? I am not complaining about you or insulting your, etc, just trying to help an anon out.
            >NOT AT ALL
            You have, proof is in the thread.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >just trying to help an anon out
            GOT AN AWFUL c**tY WAT OF DOING IT

            Orin sent out the tapes
            himself killed himself because of alcohol withdrawals combined with the horrific realization that his masterwork was so good it killed its viewers. his life was total shit as well so this was just gods cruel punchline to his life of misfiring genius which only ever served others and not himself.

            THOSE SEEM TO BE COMMON THEORIES, BUT IDK IF HE FOUND OUT HIS WIFE WAS A bawd OR IF HE KNEW THE WHOLE TIME OR WHAT

            also op your frustration is just going to be compounded by coming here
            most posters are newbies who don't care about this novel and the only oldgays who cared to read it and still post here are crazed and have insane headcanons based on flimsy misrememberings of the novels plot and details which are affixed in their minds like religious delusions and they cannot engage in discourse, only prosletization. give it up champ.

            NO I'M ACTUALLY STARTING TO ENJOY MY ANGER

            I remember the thread I made when I finally finished IJ. There was this one anon who kept replying for 100+ posts and we got to go back and forth about all the underlying nuances and themes. Plotgays need to read that one article and get over themselves. It takes a few days, but the meat of the book isn't about what happens when the words don't say it. That's actually one of the jokes of the book!

            >the meat of the book isn't about what happens when the words don't say it
            THAT'S STUPID THOUGH

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >THAT'S STUPID THOUGH
            It's really not. The entire format of the book is to deconstruct reading for pleasure. He is purposely making it more difficult to read and understand everything that is going on. The end notes. The lack of chapters. The jumping around. The narrator changing. The huge cast of characters. The footnotes to the endnotes. All of this is to continually remind you that you are reading, to remove the flow state, to remove any pleasure you would get from reading it. The main parts that are not included in the book are parts in which actual action happens and where characters work together to accomplish goals. This would be the plot and the main chunk of the book if it were any other generic science fiction. But it isn't a generic science fiction book, it's about about the human condition and it's search for meaning through addiction and entertainment. You are purposely being cucked the plot because the actual meat of the book is isolated characters and their thoughts, when people do talk to each other it is past them. They are all disassociated and focused on their own little world of worshiping sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

            >plotgayging
            WHAT THE FRICK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? PEOPLE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE EVENTS UNFOLDING WITHIN THE BOOK? YOU HAVE BRAIN ROT.

            This was years ago and I never figured out how the archives work. Sorry.
            It is linked in this post

            http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/ijend this explains everything

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It is linked in this post

            http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/ijend this explains everything


            Plotgays should get over themselves by reading the king of plotgays?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yes, just get it out of their system. Get over themselves and move on. Unlike OP.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It's really not. The entire format of the book is to deconstruct reading for pleasure. He is purposely making it more difficult to read and understand everything that is going on. The end notes. The lack of chapters. The jumping around. The narrator changing. The huge cast of characters. The footnotes to the endnotes. All of this is to continually remind you that you are reading, to remove the flow state, to remove any pleasure you would get from reading it. The main parts that are not included in the book are parts in which actual action happens and where characters work together to accomplish goals. This would be the plot and the main chunk of the book if it were any other generic science fiction. But it isn't a generic science fiction book, it's about about the human condition and it's search for meaning through addiction and entertainment. You are purposely being cucked the plot because the actual meat of the book is isolated characters and their thoughts, when people do talk to each other it is past them. They are all disassociated and focused on their own little world of worshiping sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
            THAT'S ALL VERY GAY AND INCLUDES A LOT OF homosexual SPECULATION AND HEADCANON ON YOUR PART

            It refers to the sort of person who fixates on plot at expense of everything else such as theme and character, as you have been doing itt and why you are more concerned with proving Gately to be a hero than understanding IJ.

            SOUNDS LIKE SOME PSEUD BULLSHIT TO ME

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I think his posts are the only ones I have gotten anything from itt, admittedly I did skip over/skim some posts in the first half of the thread, lots of plotgayging going on there.

            I remember the thread I made when I finally finished IJ. There was this one anon who kept replying for 100+ posts and we got to go back and forth about all the underlying nuances and themes. Plotgays need to read that one article and get over themselves. It takes a few days, but the meat of the book isn't about what happens when the words don't say it. That's actually one of the jokes of the book!

            What article? Also, can you link the thread?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >plotgayging
            WHAT THE FRICK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? PEOPLE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE EVENTS UNFOLDING WITHIN THE BOOK? YOU HAVE BRAIN ROT.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It refers to the sort of person who fixates on plot at expense of everything else such as theme and character, as you have been doing itt and why you are more concerned with proving Gately to be a hero than understanding IJ.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            so you're a charactergay
            why do I even need to pay attention to character to the same degree I need to pay attention to plot? In IJ the plot is non-linear and fragmented so greater care must be given to understand what is going on, and you're actually able to understand and make predictions about events based on this attention given the dialectical sierpinski gasket which underpins the structure of the novel. Character in the novel is not subtle in any way like plot, and is fairly easy to follow and in many cases is explicitly spelled out through exposition by the narrator.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >so you're a charactergay
            No, your missing the point which is not to be a gay and not fixate on single aspects. The Sierpinski gasket structure is not plot and mostly abandoned early in the editing process when he chopped 500 pages from the novel and moved most of the footnotes back into the primary narrative, DFW said himself that only remnants of that structure exist in the final form and that the sierpinski structure was not concrete and more inspired by it, if memory serves he goes into this in the interview with Silverblatt.

            The remnants can be seen in character relations where the the deeper you dig in the further out you get as if you are zooming in on the gasket. He makes various jokes about this structure throughout the novel generally dealing with CT who seems to loom up on you and recede at the same time. Perhaps I will go into this more tomorrow but nearly bedtime now.

            Bro, you have me tripping with the style change from the beginning of the book and end of the book. It made me get out my copy lol. In general, there is a formality in the beginning like a research paper. It is actually kind of dry. Towards the end, it is way less formal and more conversational. Also, it gets clunkier. It becomes more like how I am typing right now.

            from 911: He hadn't in the beginning burgled, Gatley, as a full time drug addict, though he did sometimes promote small valuable....

            from 38: In the eighth American-educational grade, Bruce Green fell dreadfully in love with a classmate who had the unlikely name of Mildred Bonk.

            I am literally just picking at random, buy the narrator changes in some notable ways. I just took for granted that DFW is just quirky and chooses to bend the narrative style wherever for, idk, flair and entertainment. If there is a greater intentionality there, then we'll damn...

            The narrator is dealing with the same things as the characters. At the start he is at the top of his game as a narrator but as we progress he starts to loose his way and we see him falling back more and more on things which are entertaining and fantastical. As a narrator he starts seeking the easy rewards in the only way a narrator can, instead of focusing on the big picture and developing idea and theme as he does in the beginning he is being fun and performing for the reader. This is the metafictional aspect of IJ.

            The narrator adopts qualities of the subject. Lenz sections, for example, are not in the first person but include very particular character traits, such as his, Lenz's, knack for linguistic malapropisms (among other things).

            The narrator is a character but almost certainly not a character in the story he is telling. We can make a decent case for the narrator being Hal which does result in some interesting and the novel becomes mostly a fantasy of Hal's and the desire to believe he mattered especially that he mattered to Himself and that Himself went to great lengths and fought to the end and beyond the grave to help Hal. But the narrator's voice is very different than Hal's. Structurally it works very well, stylistically not so much, thematically it is fairly good and reaches essentially the same conclusion as narrator as distinct individual.

            The narrator adopts qualities of the subject. Lenz sections, for example, are not in the first person but include very particular character traits, such as his, Lenz's, knack for linguistic malapropisms (among other things).

            That is the free indirect speech I talked about earlier but there is more to it than just that.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Calls people plotgays
            >Creates the kookiest fan theory ever about the entire plot being a fantasy concocted by hal
            Ok pal

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Didn't create anything, I just took the time to analyze IJ from the perspective of Hal as the narrator to see what would happen. First sentence of that bit was stating that the narrator is almost certainly not a character in the novel, is your comprehension really that bad? Or are strawmans and adhom the only way you can feel smart?

            [...]

            >I BET YOU CAN'T
            I bet you can't engage in a discussion. Prove me wrong and I will win that bet.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I AM ENGAGED IN SEVERAL DISCUSSIONS IN THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW YOU DICK SLAPPING moron

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You are poorly attempting to lead discussion about something which you admit to not understand but ignore and/or insult anything which does not fit within your understanding, that is not discussion. If you want to lead a discussion or even engage in discussion on something you don't understand you need to ask more questions and make far fewer declarations, insults, and arguments. Most importantly you need to learn to identify questions which will lead to discussion instead of tail chasing.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            dude, you have schizophrenia. nothing you're saying makes any sense and its not even grammatically correct. Looking back you keep mentioning that DFW has been putting "jokes" in the novel which no one else is able to see except for you. Apophenia. Seek help.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >you are schizophrenic if I can't understand you
            Lol. He makes sense to me, not saying I agree with everything he says but he makes sense. How could you not get the jokes about CT?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Elaborate on these allusive "jokes" about CT and how they relate to the sierpinski gasket structure (if you're just going to say he is receding and approaching paradoxically like an evolving fractal, don't bother) Also, explain how the sierpininksi gasket structure is a "joke" when it is a critical element that structures the entire novel and DFW was elated when an interviewer discovered independently that a fractal was guiding the flow of the story and asked him about it. I believe he said "I want you to adopt me" when the interviewer asked him that question.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I never said the structure was a joke and neither did that anon.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >The Sierpinski gasket structure is not plot and mostly abandoned early in the editing process
            >He makes various jokes about this structure throughout the novel generally dealing with CT who seems to loom up on you and recede at the same time.

            whatever equivocal back tracking floats your boat man

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >keep mentioning
            I only mentioned one joke and only mentioned it once.

            Elaborate on these allusive "jokes" about CT and how they relate to the sierpinski gasket structure (if you're just going to say he is receding and approaching paradoxically like an evolving fractal, don't bother) Also, explain how the sierpininksi gasket structure is a "joke" when it is a critical element that structures the entire novel and DFW was elated when an interviewer discovered independently that a fractal was guiding the flow of the story and asked him about it. I believe he said "I want you to adopt me" when the interviewer asked him that question.

            Have you never seen the classic zooming in on a Sierpinski Gasket animation? Zooming in causes the outer triangle to increase in size as more smaller subtriangles are revealed creating the impression of something looming up as it recedes.

            >The Sierpinski gasket structure is not plot and mostly abandoned early in the editing process
            >He makes various jokes about this structure throughout the novel generally dealing with CT who seems to loom up on you and recede at the same time.

            whatever equivocal back tracking floats your boat man

            Making a joke about/in reference to something does not reduce the subject to a joke. If I make a joke about you does that mean you are a joke? OK, bad example.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You have been trained by corporate consumerist culture to enjoy plot. Events happen. Things change. Catharsis occurs. You don't have to change your life because you live it vicariously through your media consumption. This is why everything always has a happy ending. Who would go back to a movie if it left them feeling utterly destroyed and defeated and depressed? When someone accuses you of being a plotgay it is that they think you do not understand the depth of characters, how the relate to the other characters, what themes are being presented, or what the broader message is of the work. The 'big picture' kind of items. They also could be speaking of prose and procedure as well. The medium of the book itself, how it is laid out, how it is written, how the words feel in your head, what emotional reactions these functions are getting out of you.

            To put it another way, if you were to go to dinner with friends, telling me the anticipation and events that occured between you and your friends as you went to dinner would be the plot (how you met up, where you went, who was there, what was eaten, the barback dropping dishes, the manager dealing with a karen, the check being served, the parking lot loitering before everyone leaves, you hooking up with the karen). But the things that paint the pictures of the events and how the characters felt (the tensions between you and your friends you haven't seen in a long while and the anxiety that causes you and the effects that had on you at work leading up to the dinner, the awkwardness of the greetings, the isolation felt as you watched everyone else talk about their successful lives, the internal debate on whether you should get a 5th beer, you sliding back into your old ways and sleeping with your ex karen) are all the real substantive aspects of the human condition, and you can extract real value on the way you live or think about your life from those literary devices. This is why 'classic literature' is seen as boring to a lot of people. Not much happens, but everything has a depth unlike any other media. It's important in our age of constant media consumption to engage with things that aren't easy. Otherwise it's just another monster of the week show.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You have been trained by corporate consumerist culture to enjoy plot
            I'M PRETTY SURE ALL STORYTELLING THROUGHOUT ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY HAS BEEN MAINLY CONCERNED WITH PLOT. THIS SEEMES LIKE A GEN X'ER HUFFING HIS OWN FARTS WHILE COMPLAINING THAT ENTERTAINMENT IS LE BAD. JUST BECAUSE THE AUTHOR HAS A VIEWPOINT ON HIS CHARACTERS AND THEIR MEANING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THOSE VIEWPOINTS ON THOSE CHARACTERS ARE SOMEHOW MORE VALID THAN ANYONE ELSE'S INTERPRETATION. YES I HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PLOT BECAUSE HE SET UP A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PLOT AND THEN NEVER ANSWERED THEM. THAT'S SHITTY WRITING.

            I'm only halfway through but I thought it's already obvious why Himself kysed.
            Also love Pemulis. Easily the best character so far.

            YEAH PEMULIS IS BASED

            https://i.imgur.com/WMmvKxJ.jpeg

            Samegay! I'm onto you
            These threads are all an ad campaign to sell your shitty explination

            I WISH

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            this whole "plotgay" meme exists only between a few crazed oldgays here on IQfy
            there is no textual evidence whatsoever that the plot of IJ doesn't matter or that the novel is a deconstruction of traditional storytelling in film
            the closest you'll get to that is the concept of anti-confluentialism in the novel, but this isn't even a hypothetical "Anti-traditional-plot" art movement, the plots in such films are just avant-garde.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            > YES I HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PLOT BECAUSE HE SET UP A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PLOT AND THEN NEVER ANSWERED THEM. THAT'S SHITTY WRITING.
            That’s the joke. A sort of… infinite jest.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            IT'S NOT FUNNY THOBEIT

            Who do you suppose is narrating when we are first introduced to Lyle? Could it be Stice? This would sort of follow since they share future interactions.

            >Who do you suppose is narrating
            THE NARRATOR

            The John Wayne stuff is what I missed. So he is a secret agent for ONAN or something? And how do we know he is banging Avril?

            >So he is a secret agent for ONAN or something?
            SEEMS THAT WAY
            >And how do we know he is banging Avril?
            EVERYONE KNOWS, HAL ADMITS AT THE END THAT HE HAD KNOWN FOR A WHILE AND DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FEEL ABOUT IT, ALSO PEMULIS WALKED IN ON JOHN WAYNE DRESSED IN JUST A JOCKTRAP AND FOOTBALL HELMET IN THE THREE-POINT STANCE WHILE SHE WAS DOING A FULL SPLIT IN A CHEERLEADER OUTFIT WITH POM POMS MADE OF SHREDDED PAPER.

            Bro, you have me tripping with the style change from the beginning of the book and end of the book. It made me get out my copy lol. In general, there is a formality in the beginning like a research paper. It is actually kind of dry. Towards the end, it is way less formal and more conversational. Also, it gets clunkier. It becomes more like how I am typing right now.

            from 911: He hadn't in the beginning burgled, Gatley, as a full time drug addict, though he did sometimes promote small valuable....

            from 38: In the eighth American-educational grade, Bruce Green fell dreadfully in love with a classmate who had the unlikely name of Mildred Bonk.

            I am literally just picking at random, buy the narrator changes in some notable ways. I just took for granted that DFW is just quirky and chooses to bend the narrative style wherever for, idk, flair and entertainment. If there is a greater intentionality there, then we'll damn...

            HE SPENT ALL HIS ENERGY LISTING THE CHEMICAL FORMULAS OF EVERY DRUG KNOWN TO MAN

            I dont think Himself is the third person narrator, I think its just Dave. Most of the important characters in the novel are either self inserts of his or are people he was obsessed with IRL (for example, JVD is just Mary Karr) so I think Dave being the narrator is the most parsimonious explanation
            He's making errors as a stylistic choice both to entertain the reader after slogging through 750 pages of exposition and as a way to reflect the psychological breakdown of the characters and the incipient social breakdown of ONAN

            >I dont think Himself is the third person narrator, I think its just Dave.
            THIS IS HOW I READ IT

            The narrator adopts qualities of the subject. Lenz sections, for example, are not in the first person but include very particular character traits, such as his, Lenz's, knack for linguistic malapropisms (among other things).

            THE NARRATOR SHIFTS A LOT THOUGH. BUT COME TO THINK OF IS, WASN'T HIMSELF'S CHAPTERS REMINISCING ABOUT HIS CHILDHOOD ALL IN THE FIRST PERSON?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >BUT COME TO THINK OF IS, WASN'T HIMSELF'S CHAPTERS REMINISCING ABOUT HIS CHILDHOOD ALL IN THE FIRST PERSON?
            Purely second person perspective. It's his father addressing him (you).

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Bro, you have me tripping with the style change from the beginning of the book and end of the book. It made me get out my copy lol. In general, there is a formality in the beginning like a research paper. It is actually kind of dry. Towards the end, it is way less formal and more conversational. Also, it gets clunkier. It becomes more like how I am typing right now.

            from 911: He hadn't in the beginning burgled, Gatley, as a full time drug addict, though he did sometimes promote small valuable....

            from 38: In the eighth American-educational grade, Bruce Green fell dreadfully in love with a classmate who had the unlikely name of Mildred Bonk.

            I am literally just picking at random, buy the narrator changes in some notable ways. I just took for granted that DFW is just quirky and chooses to bend the narrative style wherever for, idk, flair and entertainment. If there is a greater intentionality there, then we'll damn...

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I dont think Himself is the third person narrator, I think its just Dave. Most of the important characters in the novel are either self inserts of his or are people he was obsessed with IRL (for example, JVD is just Mary Karr) so I think Dave being the narrator is the most parsimonious explanation
            He's making errors as a stylistic choice both to entertain the reader after slogging through 750 pages of exposition and as a way to reflect the psychological breakdown of the characters and the incipient social breakdown of ONAN

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            While reading, I thought of the narrator as Hal. I also got the sense that the psychic distance between Hal and DFW is very thin. Now I guess it doesn't work for Hal to be the narrator. How would he know the whole story? Maybe that is why Himself is seen as narrator. As a wraith, he is the only one who would have access to all of the info in the book. I have only read the book once so I focused more on the conventional aspects of the novel(the plot and humor). I will definetly reread eventually and maybe I can keep an eye out for these metafictional elements.

            Also, so many of you are saying IJ isn't funny. I though it was hilarious.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            DFW didn't intend for it to be funny so that's why people say it isn't

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Well he went about writing a deliberately unfunny book in a very funny way then.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            DFW was a weird guy
            I'm sure some of the puns were deliberately meant to be funny but the lions share of the novel is meant to be depressing. He mentioned in interviews that sections of the book that he thought were sad were being heralded as examples of comedic segments by audience members but that wasn't his intent.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >he didn't expect me to laugh at the Roy Tony chapter

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I didn't laugh at the Roy Tony chapter, I just thought it was sad

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >mama say cuz Roty Tony bix nood mufuggin homie shieeeeet
            moving prose

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            yeah I guess if you're a poltarded philistine you can't be moved by a barely pubescent girl being raped by her mom's boyfriend and then whipped with an iron curtain rod

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Black folk gonna Black person

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            that's true but it doesn't mean its funny

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            comedy is subjective

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            that's true but it doesn't mean its funny

            Eat shit, /misc/scum.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            18+ site.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            /misc/ is for doomer

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I thought the narrator mirrored whoever it was following

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The narrator adopts qualities of the subject. Lenz sections, for example, are not in the first person but include very particular character traits, such as his, Lenz's, knack for linguistic malapropisms (among other things).

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Just noticed I misread your post.
            >THOUGH IF HE WAS DOING IT TO KEEP IT OUT OF THE HANDS OF INTERNATIONAL TERRORISTS TO HARM INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH
            You are working under the assumption that digging up the head happened and ignoring the narrator, assuming everything the narrator says is true and he is 100% reliable. This is not the whole reliable/unreliable narrator thing, this is the human narrator who we have to treat like a human and not just reduce to reliable or unreliable, we have to take the time to understand him and what he is going through and his motives and failings and dreams and goals, just like any other character. The narrator strongly parallels Hal and we can even make a decent case for the narrator being Hal which gives some interesting results technique wise but does not change much in the overall novel and introduces some issues, maybe I will go into that later. Main things to remember are that the narrator is no different than any other character in the novel and used towards the same end, we can't trust the narrator, just understand him.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The John Wayne stuff is what I missed. So he is a secret agent for ONAN or something? And how do we know he is banging Avril?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Secret agent for the AFR, switched sides to help Hal for some reason, got iced for it

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >And how do we know he is banging Avril?
        You forgot the chapter where Pemulis walks in on Avril and Wayne having sex

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Turns out the butler did it

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      IF ONLY T'WERE SO SIMPLE

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This all caps, faux-angry shtick is cringe

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >This all caps, faux-angry shtick is cringe
      NAH YOU ARE. IT'S NOT A SHTICK BTW, I REALLY AM ANGRY AND MY CAPS LOCK IS REALLY BROKEN. SO GO FRICK YOURSELF.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, we 100% believe you’re angry and your caps lock is broken. In no way this pointless thread is trying to get yourself attention.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          NO IT'S TO GET ANSWERS ABOUT INFINITE JEST. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN FRICK OFF TO ONE OF THE OTHER HUNDRED THREADS ON THIS BOARD OR THOUSANDS OF THREADS ON THIS SITE. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe the real infinite jest was the friends we made along the way

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Truly, it was an Infinite Jest.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        "There"

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          KEK

          >Infinite
          >should have an ending

          heh, you got played TWICE

          YES OR AT LEAST COULD HAVE EXPLICATED ON THE CLIMAX THAT THE BOOK WAS BUILDING TO

          >600,000 words of bandana guy
          More like Infinite Boredom

          I WAS ACTUALLY THOROUGHLY ENGAGED THE WHOLE TIME WHICH IS WHY THE LACK OF AN ENDING PISSED ME OFF

          h-hot

          UWU

          this is the most coherent answer that OP is gonna get.

          Whether Gately 'relapsed' or not is up for interpretation, but he was definitely given real painkillers during his surgery regardless of his consent, the surgery would have been impossible otherwise. Whether that ruins his sober streak and he fully relapses or he is able to resist the temptation to fully return to his old ways is anyone's guess (though, based on his prophetic vision of traveling to the concavity with Wayne, Hal, and Joelle, I'm guessing he actually does stay clean after his surgery)

          What's really gonna cook your noodle is thinking about what the hell Lyle and JOI's ghost are up to. The entire plot of the novel has been subtly architected by them for some reason, seemingly in relation to Hal and stopping him from suffering the same fate as JOI. The only person I've ever seen talk about this layer of the story is Schwartz, but I think he misses the mark. Nobody else gives us a frick lmao. Ask questions like these and you're a "plotgay" (i.e. a smart person who can actually assemble non-linearly presented events in their head and then ask questions a make deductions based on them)

          >this is the most coherent answer that OP is gonna get.
          IT'S RIDDLED WITH INACCURACIES AND SPECULATION
          >he was definitely given real painkillers during his surgery regardless of his consent
          THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT FIRMLY ESTABLISHED IN THE TEXT, GATELY'S GRIP ON REALITY WAS EXTREMELY FLUID
          >What's really gonna cook your noodle is thinking about what the hell Lyle and JOI's ghost are up to.
          ETERNITY WITH YOUR GURU GHOSTBRO SOUNDS PRETTY BASED TO ME

          this whole "plotgay" meme exists only between a few crazed oldgays here on IQfy
          there is no textual evidence whatsoever that the plot of IJ doesn't matter or that the novel is a deconstruction of traditional storytelling in film
          the closest you'll get to that is the concept of anti-confluentialism in the novel, but this isn't even a hypothetical "Anti-traditional-plot" art movement, the plots in such films are just avant-garde.

          >this whole "plotgay" meme exists only between a few crazed oldgays here on IQfy
          YEAH THAT'S KINDA WHAT I WAS SUSSING OUT

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Orin sent out the tapes
    himself killed himself because of alcohol withdrawals combined with the horrific realization that his masterwork was so good it killed its viewers. his life was total shit as well so this was just gods cruel punchline to his life of misfiring genius which only ever served others and not himself.

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    also op your frustration is just going to be compounded by coming here
    most posters are newbies who don't care about this novel and the only oldgays who cared to read it and still post here are crazed and have insane headcanons based on flimsy misrememberings of the novels plot and details which are affixed in their minds like religious delusions and they cannot engage in discourse, only prosletization. give it up champ.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I remember the thread I made when I finally finished IJ. There was this one anon who kept replying for 100+ posts and we got to go back and forth about all the underlying nuances and themes. Plotgays need to read that one article and get over themselves. It takes a few days, but the meat of the book isn't about what happens when the words don't say it. That's actually one of the jokes of the book!

  25. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP is illiterate and gets mad at books lol. Here's a more interesting question: why is Broom of a System so fricking bad? It's almost like it was written by a totally different author, like I can't detect any of DFW in it at all. Very weird.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      YEAH FRICK YOU TOO BUDDY

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I agreed on my first read and all I found of worth in it was some amazing dialogue, but I found it much better on the second read, still not great but I moved from hating it to sort of liking it. Biggest problem for me is theme is rather forced with things like the psychiatrist and Rick's stories/self insert novel. Rick really grew on me as a character on my second read and DFW never wrote a character that compared.

      Yes, just get it out of their system. Get over themselves and move on. Unlike OP.

      In my experience that does not get it out of their system, it just gives them 'proof.'

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >In my experience that does not get it out of their system, it just gives them 'proof.'
        Ah, well, it worked for me after I wanted to throw the book across the room for abruptly ending. Someone else having done the easter egg hunt to find out the implied plot let me get on with my life.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Honestly I never made it past the first 10 chapters, let alone a second read. And I have read pretty much every other damn thing this guy had written

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The beginning is kind of rough and is mostly setting up a very contrived and not great plot that serves little purpose to the whole which is its saving grace, you can just ignore the plot, assuming you can get yourself through the setup. I got the impression he figured that since theme was not dependent on plot he could just do what ever he wanted with plot which weirdly makes it a very plot heavy plotless novel. I would soldier through it, once he starts developing theme and playing with idea it gets pretty interesting and has some amazing dialogues. You will also start seeing DFW in there more as you progress and most everything he would do as a fiction writer is buried in there.

  26. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I'm only halfway through but I thought it's already obvious why Himself kysed.
    Also love Pemulis. Easily the best character so far.

  27. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    ALSO BUT THEN SO WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH LETTING US KNOW THAT PEMULIS HAS AN OLDER BROTHER WHO WAS REPEATEDLY RAPED BY HIS FATHER? A FOOK IN T'BOOT, INDEED.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Explains Pemulis's sociopathic behavior and why he is an addict despite being a genius like Hal (in math though, not language), furthers the motif of addiction being a result of extreme trauma (reminds you of the story of the heroin addict who had to listen to her dad frick her moronic sister from earlier), and his nonchalant response to seeing AMI and Wayne doing incest play

  28. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What was the point of the aids razors?

  29. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >600,000 words of bandana guy
    More like Infinite Boredom

  30. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Who do you suppose is narrating when we are first introduced to Lyle? Could it be Stice? This would sort of follow since they share future interactions.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It was Hal.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It isn't, he refers to the Incandenza family in the third person, not his own family.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >"He supposedly went way back with Dr. Incandenza, the Academy's founder, in the past."
          for reference

          I feel like this doesn't rule out Hal as the narrator. Hal is a weird guy and referring to his father in the third person isn't that weird. It does give me pause though.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >"He supposedly went way back with Dr. Incandenza, the Academy's founder, in the past."
        for reference

  31. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    NOW I REMEMBER ONE WAS A PAPER HE HAD WRITTEN AND ONE WAS JUST AN ODDLY UNPUNCTUATED RANT FROM HIS DRUNKEN FATHER

  32. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Also, you guys ever hear like Don Ho and get wicked flashbacks of your hot ass girlfriend with an unfortunate name and then your like mom having a massive heart attack to a prank spring snake from what she believed was a premium jar of Hawaiian macadamias? Has this ever happened to you?

  33. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Plotgay can’t find the plot!

  34. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So, OP, to sum all of this up, the novel either failed for you or you failed the novel. You're supposed to use the predictive power enabled by the dialectical sierpisnki gasket structure combined with the small semi-obscured details throughout the novels hinting at things like what is IJ, why is Orin sending it out, what are lyle and the wraith doing, what is the AFR and OUS doing, etc, to create a climax chapter yourself. The ending is the beginning chapter, but the climax is missing. You have to try and guess based on your own forecasting of the trends of the novel what happens during the climax.

    Here are my takeaways:
    -Orin sent out the tapes as revenge on Avril and for JOI. Avril fricked Orin.

    -Avril and Luria are the same person. Avril has DID and is working for the AFR.

    -Wayne switched sides to help Hal, Gately, and JVD for some reason. Wayne got killed by the AFR for betraying them.

    -The AFR gets a hold of the DRM-free master copy of IJ. The hypermach fighter flying across the sky in the beginning of the novel is evidence that the entertainment is about to be released nationwide and the gov is prepping for chaos.

    -Lyle and JOI have masterminded this entire sequence of events for some reason (possibly as a "Found Drama" esque hyperreal art project or something akin to it) as a way to try and save Hal from the fate of being a "figurant" like JOI.

    -Hal's psychotic state was deliberately induced by the wraith putting DMZ on hal's toothbrush. By being forced into a figurant like state that cannot do anything without the help of others, JOI hopes to teach Hal how to have agency over his own life.

    -IJ being released is part of JOI and Lyle's plan. Everyone in the United States (or some number close to the entirity of the population) is about to feel what its like to be a figurant who can only watch. Given that there are two versions of Infinite Jest (IV and V) it's possible that one of them is actually the anti-entertainment is actually nested within the entertainment somehow, with the fourier transformations in the tapes low level ALGOL code mentioned by steeply possibly functioning as a mechanism for activating the anti-entertainment sequence after a successive number of viewings.

    -Hal and ONAN will recover from their drug and entertainment induced psychosis, but radically changed and ONAN will likely dissolve

    The last two points are my own schizo conclusion to the novel, but I feel like the earlier points are within the text and kind of hard to dispute. The conclusion I drew seemed to be a logical extrapolation of the themes of the novel, where once someone has lost everything and hits rock bottom that is the point where they can recover and change. Hal and ONAN are about to be forced through that process by JOI and Lyle.
    AFR and OUS are just pawns.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >-Orin sent out the tapes as revenge on Avril and for JOI. Avril fricked Orin.
      There's more to it than that. I do not think Orin is getting revenge for James. I think Orin is a narcissist, and I propose two things here: 1) he has no stake in that game and 2) I don't even think he even gets it or cares. I am open to why you might feel this way though, outside of the sort of obvious a priori argument that your mom fricking anyone with a pulse, including your friends, would just feel shitty. My argument however is that I don't think Orin operates on that level.
      >-Avril and Luria are the same person. Avril has DID and is working for the AFR.
      Yes, yes. I too have been and am here to spread the message that Avril = Luria. Yes. I do not know about the DID thing. I also do not think it was as cut and dry as Avril fricked Orin.
      >What am I getting at?
      Consider some things: 1) Orin and Oedipal themes exist hand in glove, 2) Avril cannot discipline or say no to Orin even when he fricks up really, really bad - his frick ups simply will never, ever be addressed because to address the frick ups would mean she's not the perfect mother, 3) he can't address them either because of the degree of the frick up (in the text, S. Johnson), and 4) Orin's got something funny going on when it comes to subject-acquisition and the sort of platitudes he reads off to all of them in the process of said acquisition. We see this interestingly happen with Steeply, who is a convincing woman to no one but Orin. I do not think this is a gay jock joke although I am sure the author recognizes the potential for seeing it under that sort of cheap joke lens but doesn't go there. I think it actually is meant to be heavily indicative of theme and character.
      >-Wayne switched sides to help Hal, Gately, and JVD for some reason. Wayne got killed by the AFR for betraying them.
      I could go either way on this. I don't think a friendly stands watch in a mask. Who's to say OUS didn't rush in, kill the guy in a mask, and save our heroes? By Year of Glad, I don't think Hal is in a position to care if he, John (N. R.) Wayne, was an ally or an enemy (enemy probably not being the best word for the occasion). Hal's concerns are with John's former tennis prowess and that he, John again, would have won. I agree that the AFR straight up killing a kid is way more likely than the OUS doing that. Although, these are young men we're talking about, not boys, and John would have been armed if he was a spy - I do not believe he would have had the capacity, opportunity, time, or motive to be tripling or quadding.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Who's to say OUS didn't rush in, kill the guy in a mask, and save our heroes?
        OUS already made contact with JVD so I presumed that they were on assignment from OUS when visiting the Concavity.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I didn't mean to imply that Orin was getting revenge on AMI for JOI, but he was getting revenge on AMI for fricking him. Also, and this is a little wild, but I even think he was sexually jealous of AMI's other suitors in an Oedipal kind of way.
        >"HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! :)"
        lmao, dude hated that attache for fricking his mom so goddamn much

  35. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I'm only partway through...
    Does he talk about fricking tennis the whole book? I really am not interested in everything he wants to brain dump about tennis.
    There is an unexpectedly very high amount of tennis in this book.

  36. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why Infinite Jest has notes?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's perpetually funny

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Ok, but I don't understand the sense, but I'm curious.

  37. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    WAIT SO BUT THEN IS THE HYPOCHONDRIAC WOMAN WHO ROD THE GOD WAS HOPELESSLY IN LOVE WITH WAS HAL'S MOM???? HOW WOULD THAT EVEN WORK? THOUGH I GUESS HIMSELF WAS VERY DELIBERATELY IGNORANT OF HER ACTIVITIES. THAT'S WILD I DIDN'T PUT THAT TOGETHER.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Luria and Avril are both from the same town in Quebec and Luria and Avril are twisted anagrams of one another (v is interchangeable with u in old English)

      it would explain a lot of avrils absences on the ETA grounds during critical events

      hypermach air travel is a common occurrence in IJ so logistically it wouldn't be impossible

      tableau would make it so Orin couldn't recognize her

      Luria was also huffing some strange drug when the AFR interview Orin about "what he misses" that could be some substance that helps suppress the Avril personalit

      its also an allusion to blue velvet and lynch again which Dave was not only a rabid fan of but also deliberately included characters who he explicitly defined as "lynchian" (for example the ennet house resident who tries to kill someone over tapping his fingers on a desk while yelling about peanut butter)

  38. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    LMFAO I remember telling you to read it a second time, anon. I'm afraid you're just a midwit.

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