paganism in latin America world

Why in latin America has there been a very high influx of "alternative" pagan religions? Even with the Catholic presence in the region, it seems that this was not enough?

In my country, for example, at least in every Brazilian family there is someone who is a "macumbeiro", basically they are African trash who worship some satanic deities, in addition to the so-called "spiritists". the same occurs throughout Latin America.
however, something that is different from some conventional /misc/ pagans, they are dishonest (in addition to being like that in essence) because they claim to follow Christ at the same time as they are pagans.

I mean, if you question them for their satanic paganism and how this is not God, they will always respond that you don't know anything and that they actually pray to God and follow him.
Anyway, why did this happen? the integration of various African, Indian and other peoples? Does the same happen with Anglo societies

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >the integration of various African, Indian and other peoples?
    /thread

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      tradgays having 0 critical thinking skills as always

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP here.
    If someone from an Anglo country doesn't understand, use as an example the Mexican cult of "la santa muerte", but with other demons. Why does it happen? Why is Latin America so pagan

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Because Catholicism allows for veneration of saints and intercession. So changing the saints with other persons/deities is not a big stretch.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >they are African trash
      mods or anyone, I didn't say they are trash because they are black, I said their belief is African pagan trash

      But isn't Catholicism clear on the issue that saints aren't really "deities"? but people with God's grace?
      obviously they are always internal to God, they are not taken from African cults or something like that

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I'm Catholic, and unfortunately, I think that makes sense. as much as it hurts to say this

      >they are African trash
      mods or anyone, I didn't say they are trash because they are black, I said their belief is African pagan trash

      But isn't Catholicism clear on the issue that saints aren't really "deities"? but people with God's grace?
      obviously they are always internal to God, they are not taken from African cults or something like that

      OP, your country never had a strict Catholic education, this leaves room for personal interpretation, I'm Portuguese and I know very well that Brazilians don't even know what the word "saint" means, they use it as a synonym for those pagan beliefs that are present in their poor country.

      the same with the Mexicans, they say they follow God and Christ at the same time that they follow la santa muerte and they say that there is no contradiction in this, but God is supposedly part of it. and I'm sure people follow it aren't very good, whether in Mexico or in your country. both can be used to kill and do evil but at the same time this is not contradiction with believing in God lol lol the south texas mind is insane. and we are full

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's a meme that Latinos are more traditionally Catholic, it's not uncommon to see a Latino Catholic go to mass on Sunday and then to a strip club on Monday.
        When I lived in East LA in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood, some kids prayed to God to get away with their robbery LOL. I don't know what happened next but it probably went wrong.

        as if Portugal were much better, they are more atheist than some Eastern European countries

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        santa muerte is a meme religion created in the 90s when the economic crises created huge slums and their "churches" (cults) started giving away stuff to get followers. the rituals themselves are mostly ripped off from yoruba religions but instead of praying to orisha spirits they pray to "death"

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I'm the OP. Are you Brazilian friend? Those names you said are literally the kind of trash that macumbeiros worship. so it's basically the same crap done in different ways?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            im mexican
            >so it's basically the same crap done in different ways?
            no, honestly i dont like yoruba religions and even though they sometimes use human remains in their rituals i dont think they are evil
            however santa muerte is, it's a dangerous cult that scams poor people and inspires them to do crime. yoruba religions don't do this, people who follow yoruba religions are mostly black fishermen who want a love potion or a favour from an ancestor, which is moronic but mostly harmless. santa muerte followers are muggers, narcos, serial killers, etc

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you.
            I'm not Mexican, but African religions are as dangerous as the cult of Santa Muerte.
            I mean, it's not uncommon for them to do "jobs" (trabalho)
            for people that basically consist of doing harm to a certain person with the help of the deities they follow, using strands of hair, clothes, names, etc. almost like a kind of voodoo.
            and sometimes this works, especially with people who are spiritually without much grace from God. There was a case in my family, I know how satanic this is.
            In the state of Rio Grande do Sul, there have been cases of human sacrifice of children and this is not very rare. Many people who follow this are also criminals and it generally attracts all types of degenerates, gays, drug users, traps, prisoners and so on. I'm not saying it's harmless

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >and sometimes this works
            you're just as moronic as those Black folks lmfao
            magic is not real, satan has no power, go to mass

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            friend, the priests actually say this MAYBE can work. clearly it's not because their belief has some kind of power or because their divinity is real, it's actually the action of the devil himself, I don't know what your country is like, but the exorcists here notice a pattern that many people who need help were or were indirectly involved in this garbage. oh wait, you deny exorcism now?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            it's not my problem if your priests are gyppo morons like you who believe in black magic, lol imagine letting those people have power over you
            >exorcism
            more gyppo shit, youre a moron if you believe in possession and youre a schizo if you think it's caused by people sticking stitches into dead animals

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Calm down ma'am, no one is swearing.
            >if you think it's caused by people stitching dead animals
            Literally said this doesn't work. It's just the devil's actions and not this crap directly.
            >gypsies lol

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            the devil has no power, he's trapped in hell, the most he can do is tempt people but that's still people acting on their free will
            >oh no magic arghagh save me Black personman
            gyppo shit

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This one. I'm Brazilian and the people at Coppe Yoroba are generally stoners and homosexuals, a lot of prostitution in the mix and some wizards and witches.

            some criminals use the "trickster" or malandro as protection too.
            Jesus, i hate this ""country"""

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            yes man. I know how it is....
            But I wanted to know how this happens, why? what is the context? Is there any influence from the various African communities in Brazil?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            probably not. Pure Africans in this greasy country are not even half of the population, perhaps some small groups had external financing. but it's probably due to this:

            Because Catholicism allows for veneration of saints and intercession. So changing the saints with other persons/deities is not a big stretch.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            it's Yoruba vodou religion with a catholic coat of paint, catholic frairs used similes to convert people, theyd take X pagan figure and say he was actually X saint and pray to him and let's make a festival. overtime they remove the more pagan elements but some persist over the years. it's no coincidence santería voodoo and candomblé are all so similar.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why don't we see the same in Europe then? ancient festivals did not preserve any traces of paganism

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >theyd take X pagan figure and say he was actually X saint
            no. This is not Catholic, since it is known that the verb did not manifest itself in other beliefs

            This one. I'm Brazilian and the people at Coppe Yoroba are generally stoners and homosexuals, a lot of prostitution in the mix and some wizards and witches.

            some criminals use the "trickster" or malandro as protection too.
            Jesus, i hate this ""country"""

            Here in Italy we have some people (mainly women) who attend some diviners, but not necessarily some type of Roman paganism.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >This is not Catholic
            it's literally what they did

            Why don't we see the same in Europe then? ancient festivals did not preserve any traces of paganism

            they did but anyway how long has europe been christian for? how long have blacks been christian for?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >it's literally what they did
            No.
            They didn't do it because as a pagan deity X would be holy Y if not even saints are considered "gods"? What makes a god, even in pagan mythologies, is not applied to saints, since they are creatures and not deities. beyond the temporal issue. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old, and when the integration of black people began, they were already in the modern period, how could they say that God x is holy? Anyway, there are several problems, and as I said, the verb (God) did not manifest itself in pagan beliefs. Some similarities (like the creation stories of man and woman) are just that, similarities.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            2/2
            Now, if you told me that black people used the dirty tactic of deceiving people and saying in fact saint X was supposedly god y, I might agree.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            yes they did, they tried to equate quetzalcoatl with jesus/saint thomas so it was easier for indians to swallow it up, same story everywhere else they went

            And?
            Are you telling me that Mexican pagans already followed Aztec things?
            [...]
            what things for example? well, like I said. The problem (besides being Satan's little coitus girl) is religious relativism. either you are one or you are the other

            aztecs followed aztec things after colonization until it was gradually stamped out by the spanish government
            blacks came here yesterday with their half pagan beliefs, and we don't have a religion police anymore
            >what things for example?
            there was a case a little while ago where an indian sacrificed a chicken to tláloc (yes really), except chickens did not exist here before spaniards came and sacrificing chickens is a santería thing
            día de muertos too is exotified by claiming it's an aztec celebration when it's actually a catholic celebration rebranded in the 30s
            every once in a while, superstitions from elsewhere on earth are imported and called aztec (eg a supposed aztec zodiac)

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Saint Thomas Aquinas, medieval philosopher and theologian, is widely recognized for his profound intellectual contributions. An admirable aspect of his work is the synthesis he attempted between faith and reason, particularly in his efforts to reconcile Christian theology with the philosophy of Aristotle. Thomas Aquinas believed that reason and revelation could coexist harmoniously and sought to integrate classical philosophy with Christian thought.

            >quetzalcoatl For the Aztecs, Quetzalcoatl was, as his name implies, a feathered serpent, a flying reptile (much like a dragon), who was a boundary maker (and transgressor) between earth and heaven. He was a creative deity, having essentially contributed to the creation of Humanity.
            According to another version of the myth, Quetzalcoatl is one of the four sons of Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl, the four Tezcatlipocas, each of whom presides over one of the four cardinal directions. Over the West presides over the White Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, the god of light, justice, mercy and wind. Over the South presides over the Blue Tezcatlipoca, Huitzilopochtli, the god of war. Over the East presides the Red Tezcatlipoca, Xipe Totec, the god of gold, agriculture and spring
            Even in moronic fanfic, this wouldn't make any sense. They have nothing in common. Anyway, you didn't read the comment and you don't know as much as you think you do.
            the onus is on you to prove how this "was done multiple times"

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >they did
            How?
            This is just a LARP. Catholic romanticists like Chesterton or Tolkien will claim that Catholicism preserved the best aspects of Rome and paganism but then when you push them, Catholic apologists will claim that Catholicism is entirely based on the Bible and Old Testament Hebrewism, and wasn't influenced by Hellenism or Rome at all.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Don't forget about charlatanism hahaha

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yes. I know, I'm more or less talking about the hypocritical logic of these morons, I can add that at least in Brazil, they knew that African religions have a very ugly aesthetic and so they started mixing and stealing with Catholic concepts to change the external form of this religion, but of course, this is enough to fool entire Brazilian states. they are our Mexicans

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >"spiritists".
    This was a psyop by the masonic positivist first republic
    It was (in the 19th century) considered to be more rational and cientific than other religions
    The republicans also secularized the state and tried to ban macumbeiros, so spiritism was sort of going to be their new religion
    But it never truly became popular
    Nowadays spiritism is mixed with macumbeiros since they have similar beliefs (And macumbeiros wanted to larp as spiritists because there was more prestige than being a macumbeiro)

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I didn't know that, do you mind explaining more? but yes. They are kind of "allies" and sometimes use some common points as bargaining chips

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The indigenous and Africans didn't like have their spirituality destroyed in favour of christianity, I reckon. So they found ways to adapt and continue practicing them.
      >Even with the Catholic presence in the region, it seems that this was not enough?
      Tbh if it wasn't for the priests and the masters being moronic they probably could have prevented this.
      And, the catholic church is very syncretic already.
      >In my country, for example, at least in every Brazilian family there is someone who is a "macumbeiro", basically they are African trash who worship some satanic deities,
      You forgot the folk saints, new age garbage, charismatic protestantism, etc. We are also big on UFO's.
      > they are dishonest (in addition to being like that in essence) because they claim to follow Christ at the same time as they are pagans.
      They aren't lying to you when they say this. They genuinely think this is a way you can worship Christ in.
      >I mean, if you question them for their satanic paganism and how this is not God, they will always respond that you don't know anything and that they actually pray to God and follow him.
      Have you ever tried to laern more about their beliefs in an honest way? May open better avenues for you.
      > the integration of various African, Indian and other peoples?
      Yes.
      > Does the same happen with Anglo societies
      No. Because anglos were very pious and they actually made sure their slaves were christian rather than getting fooled by the old "african deity disguised as saint Micheal" trick.

      Vgh... the Latin american positivists... What covld've been..
      I miss those little fellers like you wouldn't believe.

      Saint Thomas Aquinas, medieval philosopher and theologian, is widely recognized for his profound intellectual contributions. An admirable aspect of his work is the synthesis he attempted between faith and reason, particularly in his efforts to reconcile Christian theology with the philosophy of Aristotle. Thomas Aquinas believed that reason and revelation could coexist harmoniously and sought to integrate classical philosophy with Christian thought.

      >quetzalcoatl For the Aztecs, Quetzalcoatl was, as his name implies, a feathered serpent, a flying reptile (much like a dragon), who was a boundary maker (and transgressor) between earth and heaven. He was a creative deity, having essentially contributed to the creation of Humanity.
      According to another version of the myth, Quetzalcoatl is one of the four sons of Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl, the four Tezcatlipocas, each of whom presides over one of the four cardinal directions. Over the West presides over the White Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, the god of light, justice, mercy and wind. Over the South presides over the Blue Tezcatlipoca, Huitzilopochtli, the god of war. Over the East presides the Red Tezcatlipoca, Xipe Totec, the god of gold, agriculture and spring
      Even in moronic fanfic, this wouldn't make any sense. They have nothing in common. Anyway, you didn't read the comment and you don't know as much as you think you do.
      the onus is on you to prove how this "was done multiple times"

      The other guy is wrong. Quetzalcoatl was never conflated with Jesus Christ but he was, however, painted as a virtous christian by the missionaries. Which is a form of syncretism.
      I think there's more evidence of syncretism (and even there it's scant) in the creation of the virgin mary.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        what forms of "syncretism"?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >however, painted as a virtous christian by the missionaries. Which is a form of syncretism.
          sources?
          Any claim by anyone in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica that attempts to prohibit human sacrifice is likely a colonial invention. You don't simply throw away an ancient practice that is as old as your own civilization, as natural to you as the concept of dying in battle, and that is deeply rooted in your religious and political system without some kind of strong foreign influence. influence, which eventually came in the form of Christianity.
          Even the fable of Quetzalcoatl being a peaceful god who avoided human sacrifice is almost certainly a colonial invention. In reality, Quetzalcoatl was a patron deity of the priesthood, and in art, feathered serpents are even depicted wielding sacrificial stone knives.

          Shit. I don't have any. Guess I was wrong. What I was thinking off was the substitution of meso-american gods for saints and virgins.
          I apologize.
          However. I do have sources for this claim.
          And, I found a cool meso-america text book from the 80s to boot.

          Ahem, I forgot to mention that I was not talking about virgin herself. But rather one singular Marian apparition. The Virgin of Guadalupe.

          Anyway, the part about Idolatry begins in page 302
          https://ia800808.us.archive.org/5/items/b29827620_0003/b29827620_0003.pdf
          It's in spanish, unfortunately.

          >however, painted as a virtous christian by the missionaries. Which is a form of syncretism.
          sources?
          Any claim by anyone in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica that attempts to prohibit human sacrifice is likely a colonial invention. You don't simply throw away an ancient practice that is as old as your own civilization, as natural to you as the concept of dying in battle, and that is deeply rooted in your religious and political system without some kind of strong foreign influence. influence, which eventually came in the form of Christianity.
          Even the fable of Quetzalcoatl being a peaceful god who avoided human sacrifice is almost certainly a colonial invention. In reality, Quetzalcoatl was a patron deity of the priesthood, and in art, feathered serpents are even depicted wielding sacrificial stone knives.

          In reality, Quetzalcoatl was a patron deity of the priesthood, and in art, feathered serpents are even depicted wielding sacrificial stone knives.
          I knew this, but can you still post art if you have any?
          I mean like traditional meso-american art.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >however, painted as a virtous christian by the missionaries. Which is a form of syncretism.
        sources?
        Any claim by anyone in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica that attempts to prohibit human sacrifice is likely a colonial invention. You don't simply throw away an ancient practice that is as old as your own civilization, as natural to you as the concept of dying in battle, and that is deeply rooted in your religious and political system without some kind of strong foreign influence. influence, which eventually came in the form of Christianity.
        Even the fable of Quetzalcoatl being a peaceful god who avoided human sacrifice is almost certainly a colonial invention. In reality, Quetzalcoatl was a patron deity of the priesthood, and in art, feathered serpents are even depicted wielding sacrificial stone knives.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Whites are religious, browns are superstitious. To be religious requires a higher base rate of IQ, just fearing a boogeyman is turdie shit

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      high IQ has negative correlation with religiosity

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    people without Catholic education and in rotten neighborhoods are easy to indoctrinate and induce into some shitty cult. you just need to do two things:

    1. starting from premises that involve reward and human pleasure in any form, to seek their religion.

    2. religious manipulation using the dominant faith as an antagonist or of course, adapting to it so that indoctrination is easier

    It's not common for black Africans to wear that kind of shit, maybe not in Maimi. the Portuguese were useless again

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      black Americans*
      I'm sorry

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      pretty much this, it's how every cult forms. here in mexico slums are full of evangelical churches lead by tax-evading gringos, santería places, santa muerte/malverde/saint jude shrines, etc
      moron poorgays dont know their own religion and fall victim to this shit

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Well, I don't care.
    I'm not the one who's going to kneel to Satan every day because of some fragmented religion that uses divination and witchcraft as a basis hahahaha Latin IQ in action
    Well, I wouldn't have so much of a problem if they were pagans in the literal sense, that is, literally denying God. not be a kind of moronic moral relativism. I have more respect for Hindus than for them. Something I found interesting is that Mexicans could use Aztec or Mayan paganism but prefer things from West Africa.
    Los eses are so strange =/

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      blacks are recent immigrants

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        And?
        Are you telling me that Mexican pagans already followed Aztec things?

        [...]
        also a lot of obviously yoruba stuff is disguised as "le ancestral indian" stuff. some catholic stuff is too. well pretty much everything is exotified by calling it "toltec-aztec 1000 year heritage"

        what things for example? well, like I said. The problem (besides being Satan's little coitus girl) is religious relativism. either you are one or you are the other

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      blacks are recent immigrants

      also a lot of obviously yoruba stuff is disguised as "le ancestral indian" stuff. some catholic stuff is too. well pretty much everything is exotified by calling it "toltec-aztec 1000 year heritage"

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Satan is the angel Lucifer who rebelled in heaven. He is the serpent in genesis. Anyone who worships any god other than the Christian God is actually worshiping Satan or one of his minions.

    Ps: "latin" is actually a ancient iron age european tribe.
    The mexicans, Brazilians, Colombians and etc are juts mixed

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      bs
      >Ps: "latin" is actually a ancient iron age european tribe.
      anything else captain obvious?

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    shit like the santa muerte is LARP cringe. we treat them the same way lavey ""satanists"" are viewed in America. just low class "nacos", or pretentious people of little education. as far as I know there isn't much IRL pagan religion in the country except for some tribes living in the Amazon. all of the Indian communities here are even more Catholic than the average soulless urbanite.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >nacos
      >amazon
      ??

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        a naco is someone who is the equivalent of a ghetto moron. the only real pagans are the few isolated people in places far from society.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          i know, im mexican. why does a brazilian know that word?

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    you seem to dumb to understand the concept of syncretism and how culture and spiritual traditions evolve
    most brazilians aren't trad larpers and, as most people, will go with they know/think works for them and with makes sense for them

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Give us examples of syncretism in Catholicism then. neither the OP nor anyone else said that Latinos are trad

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        that has nothing to do with what I said
        but pic related

        >you seem stupid to understand the concept of syncretism
        my comment literally alluded to this, who is stupid? me or you who uses insults for no apparent reason? and by the logic of syncretism, I'm curious to know how exactly the church used syncretism. Or do you intend to talk about Easter and meme stuff? show me your arguments.
        >and how culture and spiritual traditions evolve
        spiritual traditions that were obviously outside the Catholic "bubble" and as they were considered pagan, are not part of and have not been part of the culture as a whole. It is not a tradition for you to revive something and try to integrate in some way with the dominant religion to deceive new members and use dirty practices saying that believing in God even with the generous deities obviously, or of course, saying that holy X is intuition Y.
        >most Brazilians are not trad larpers and
        You use scarecrows to appear intelligent, it doesn't actually make you intelligent. Everyone has said this here several times.
        >like most people, they will go with what they know/think works for them and makes sense to them
        no. Catholicism has always preached against any kind of religious subjectivism or relativism, and for a long time Catholic people did or did this. Latinos end up in this because of their low Catholic education and easy manipulation. we don't see some small towns in France or Spain adhering to such things.

        the church ans official catholicism doesn't matter, as you show again to not understand the concept of syncretism and how culture and the spiritual view of people evolve
        people simply conflate and mix things they believe in ways that make sense to them, that they think it works and new ideas and practices into their frameworks as they are exposed and habituated with to new things
        It has nothing to do with institutions or with tradition

        >You use scarecrows to appear intelligent, it doesn't actually make you intelligent. Everyone has said this here several times.
        first, the correct term is strawman
        second, the whole OP confusion would only make sense if brazilians where hardcore tradcaths that reject all other forms of spirituality and ways to view the world

        >no. Catholicism has always preached against any kind of religious subjectivism or relativism
        don't matter because most people will go with with they know/think it works regardless what the official doctrine is

        >Latinos end up in this because of their low Catholic education
        no, most brazilians went to catequese and they simply don't care about the official doctrine and go with they like or make more sense to them

        now go take your meds Kogos

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I will ask again;
          Give me examples of syncretism.
          Ps: without mentioning this modern secular church and the same examples as always.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            the whole development of folk traditions, and of a de facto folk religion, that OP is b***hing about is a textbook exemple of syncretism
            you are simply failing to get the point of what I'm saying, it has nothing to do with any institutional church or any official doctrine

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >the entire development of folk traditions,
            what development? you say the same word "syncretism" over and over again all the time, but you never extend your argument beyond showing a photo of the secular Francisco. but let's play your game;
            Let's use folk festivals, the church used some shade, which ones exactly? The Roman example makes no logical sense, since Christianity represented less than 1% of the Empire's population before Constantine's arrival.

            >and a popular religion in fact,
            ? Are you a real English speaker?
            Ancient people had something called animism, you could call it the oldest religion. The belief that everything had a soul, everything that moved, animals, plants, trees, rivers, rain, the sun, the moon and the 5 visible planets. And all the souls of nature were connected. The Catholic Church calls these beliefs paganism and heresy, tell me, how exactly was this part of Catholic syncretism? and how is this consolidated? In any case, festivals and celebrations that did not have a paid content or that had any type of paganism were killed. so much so that even the oldest Falkorilca festivities in Germany, for example, do not have any peaceful character. the same with the Roman carnival.

            >what the OP is complaining about is a classic example of syncretism
            no. he's talking about why Catholicism lost strength on his disgusting continent. syncretism is not part of Catholicism.

            >you just don't understand what I'm saying,
            I'm not. I'm arguing your syncretism argument, which so far you haven't extended your comment beyond showing a clichéd example of Pope Francis.
            >has nothing to do with any institutional church or any official doctrine
            Well, this proves that I'm right, you Latinos are not Catholics and you are no longer Catholic, you use religion as a denomination. but this does not prove that syncretism is Catholic

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >what development?
            the whole mix of beliefs that OP was b***hing about

            >but you never extend your argument beyond showing a photo
            try reading what I wrote, I'm not talking about the church or ofical doctrine

            > he's talking about why Catholicism lost strength
            it has nothing to do with it as such things he is b***hing about, such as ubanda, belife in spirits, mixing catholic beliefs and practices with native's, african's and local idiosyncrasies and so on exist in Brazil since the colonial period

            >syncretism is not part of Catholicism
            that is not relevant to this topic

            >I'm arguing your syncretism argument
            what you think my argument even is ? or what I even arguing about even ?

            >u Latinos are not Catholics
            you don't even understand the difference between official church doctrine and folk catholicism or how religious identity even work
            pro tip, it don't depends on institutions

            >you are no longer Catholic,
            I never claim to be catholic or even religious

            >not prove that syncretism is Catholic
            I never argued that

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >try reading what I wrote, I'm not talking about the church or official doctrine
            I've already answered this 3 times.
            >it has nothing to do with it as such things he is b***hing about
            Even with the Catholic presence in the region.
            he even asked how this happened even though Catholicism was strictly against it
            >that is not relevant to this topic
            Actually is
            >you don't even understand the difference between official church doctrine and folk catholicism or how religious identity even work
            pro tip, it don't depends on institutions
            and you moron don't know the difference between "religious syncretism" and popular syncretism and superstitions. But again, all of this boils down to one thing: the low Catholic value that the Americas have gained over time. and again.... I argue something that no one said, you moron.
            *no one said Brazilians are trads*

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm also waiting. I knew he would post an example of Pope Francis or maybe gays rising in the clergy and other modernist shit, if he was really a little less moronic, he could use the Second Vatican Council as arguments for Catholic syncretism, but no .. he uses examples that atheists have used on this forum for years.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >what's 2+2
            >ps: no "4" answers

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          1/2
          >the church and official Catholicism do not matter,
          You don't even speak English, but how come Catholicism doesn't matter? he literally built Western civilization. the same in Brazil and Latin America.
          >how you show again that you don't understand the concept of syncretism and how people's culture and spiritual vision evolve
          I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples, posting a photo of Pope Francis that literally goes against the ten most basic commandments that even a gentleman from the interior of Bahia knows, is not a good counterargument. syncretism is not part of Catholicism. If he does, the onus is on you. prove it and don't just say "muh you don't know what it means dude".

          >people simply confuse and mix things they believe in in ways that make sense to them,
          no. firstly, this is not Catholic and secondly, this is an anachronistic view. In fact, Catholicism was a literal part of people's lives and this type of thing was prevented through dogma and, of course, via tradition.
          >It has nothing to do with institutions or tradition
          literally ha. It is because of this that syncretism is not Catholic or was part of the history of the church. not exterminate local folklore, not classify it as syncretism.
          >first, the correct term is scarecrow
          second
          you don't speak English, your first post is clear about that.
          >all the OP's confusion would only make sense if Brazilians were radical tradcaths who reject all other forms of spirituality and ways of seeing the world
          Nobody here said that Latin Americans were trad, is your argument based on concepts that nobody said? show me who argued this? the OP literally said why they ARE NOT TRAD, you bastard

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            https://i.imgur.com/KPjbkfb.jpeg

            that has nothing to do with what I said
            but pic related

            [...]
            the church ans official catholicism doesn't matter, as you show again to not understand the concept of syncretism and how culture and the spiritual view of people evolve
            people simply conflate and mix things they believe in ways that make sense to them, that they think it works and new ideas and practices into their frameworks as they are exposed and habituated with to new things
            It has nothing to do with institutions or with tradition

            >You use scarecrows to appear intelligent, it doesn't actually make you intelligent. Everyone has said this here several times.
            first, the correct term is strawman
            second, the whole OP confusion would only make sense if brazilians where hardcore tradcaths that reject all other forms of spirituality and ways to view the world

            >no. Catholicism has always preached against any kind of religious subjectivism or relativism
            don't matter because most people will go with with they know/think it works regardless what the official doctrine is

            >Latinos end up in this because of their low Catholic education
            no, most brazilians went to catequese and they simply don't care about the official doctrine and go with they like or make more sense to them

            now go take your meds Kogos

            >don't matter because most people will go with them know/think it works regardless of what the official doctrine is
            again, in a society with restricted Catholic teaching, no. Using Latin Americans or Pope Francis or even any post-Vatican example according to is not a good argument. in fact, the church has always preached an anti-subjectivism ideology and clear concepts of absolute truths. even in the post-enlightenment world this was still relatively common. The relativism we see is the result of several other factors and using it as something timeless is moronic.
            >no, most Brazilians went to catechesis
            In fact, the number of Brazilians who attend churches is low and is decreasing every day, so again, using a country and a generation with low Catholic education is not consistent proof. I can use examples of moronic Spaniards and use this as proof that Catholicism is bad and relativistic simply because Spain today is Catholic in name only. Answer me, is it honest to do this?
            >and they simply don't care
            exactly. until finally the rest of abortion realized that they are not Catholic and use subjectivist ideas for the simple fact that they do not have concise Catholic concepts. mainly in cities. But as I said, this does not imply that Catholicism is syncretistic or that Catholics as an essence are like that. Catholic Europeans in the Middle Ages or even during the navigation period would simply call modern European Catholics disgusting heretics.

            >now go take your meds Kogos
            Was this supposed to be an insult? do what

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >or even any post-Vatican example according to is not a good argument.
            kys sede

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >but how come Catholicism doesn't matter?
            *official catholicism, as in the doctrine of the church, don't matter for phenomena in question, the formation of syncretic beliefs among a population

            > he literally built Western civilization
            it didn't

            >I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples
            the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs

            >no. firstly, this is not Catholic
            does not matter, that is what happen
            people don't care about the official dogma, they act and believe what make sense to them

            > It is because of this that syncretism is not Catholic or was part of the history of the church.
            I was not talking about the history of the church nor about official dogmas, we are talking about what people de facto believe and how those beliefs come to be

            >Nobody here said that Latin Americans were trad
            and yet OP is shocked because the people aren't trads and follow a flexible mix of believes based on what they know and what makes sense to them
            that only makes sense if OP expected them to be trad and is shocked that they aren't

            >again, in a society with restricted Catholic teaching, no
            we are not talking about such societies

            > proof that Catholicism is bad and relativistic
            what are you even talking about
            I'm not talking about catholicism, but about what people believe and how they form believes

            >not imply that Catholicism is syncretistic
            not what was being argued
            and also wrong, go read about how missionary work was made

            >not imply that Catholicism is syncretistic
            brazillian meme, referring to an "famous" autistic tradlarper e-influencer

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >official catholicism, as in the doctrine of the church, don't matter for phenomena in question, the formation of syncretic beliefs among a population
            it matters. He is the one who prevents such things.
            >it didn't
            he did. If you want, I can argue about it, do you want? moronic
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example
            this is not true. first than Pacha Mama”, aboriginal and traditionalist worship of mother earth, and has nothing to do with Mary, Marian veneration literally dates back to primitive Christianity. and when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the onus of this is yours.
            > as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            no. Santa muerte originates from African/Caribbean folklore and has been introduced in the last 100 or so years. It has nothing to do with Mesoamerica.
            >I wasn't talking about the history of the church
            Yes. and even about her, you are wrong. there was no syncretism.
            nor about official dogmas, we are talking about what people de facto believe and how those beliefs come to be
            As I said, this depends on the context of the country. this is a direct symptom of weak catechism and low Catholic social influence.
            >and yet OP is shocked because the people aren't trads and follow a flexible mix of beliefs based on what they know and what makes sense to them
            that only makes sense if OP expected them to be trad and is shocked that they aren't
            no one is talking about the OP, and everyone here agrees that mulattoes are not trads, do you want a prize for that one obviously? who claimed otherwise? the OP's question was about context. I'm surprised that you're the only one who doesn't know how to read basic sentences. Even the Mexican above understood this.
            >we are not talking about such societies
            we are. This is literally why your argument makes no sense. you use the flexibility of non-Catholic people as a basis.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            2/3
            >but about what people believe and how they form beliefs
            and I responded about it. you don't understand that everything is a question of why this happens and not ***what*****, me, the Mexican, the OP and even the other Brazilian are talking about the context that led to all this. We already know what they believe and how they are not Catholic
            brazillian meme, referring to a "famous" autistic tradlarper e-influencer
            no one is talking about influencers, and again, this does not imply syncretism.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >and how they are not Catholic
            they are not but they don't know that, Black folks (and santa muerte worshippers) honestly believe they're doing catholicism right, but thats because theyre moronic poorgays who have never read a bible (or anything at all) which is why they fall prey to evangelicalism so easily too.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            True
            >1. *It* is the one, not *He* is the one
            What do you mean, moronic?
            2. it doesn't matter for what is being argued
            It matters for two reasons;
            you use the same argument that no one has even used, which is considered a false premise and the basic subject here, about syncretism, in one way or another must be related to what the church preaches or not. for the simple fact that with this, we can know where the error is.
            >it didn't, that's not even controversial point and only trad caths still try to argue otherwise
            Are you challenging me? I leave the question and we can create a debate about it;
            The Catholic Church created and saved Western civilization. want to debate?
            >don't stop people to conflate the two or the church to use it to facilitate conversions
            You soon assume that you were wrong to say that you are part of a syncretism with Our Lady. Even for the Maxicans, they are used as different things and with different essences. Therefore, this does not fit into Catholic religious syncretism and even popular syncretism.
            >church to use it to facilitate conversions
            the church never used it to "convert" its moronic. One reasoned that the characteristics of the Santa Muerte had nothing in common with our Lady, in addition to granting abstracts as a "female saint", the church actually disowned such a cult. even in Mexico haha
            >santa muerte is an exemple of syncretism that happen in mexic
            No.
            >as is the virgin of guadalupe
            those are not even controversial exemples
            The Virgin of Guadalupe was not part of any type of syncretism. His own appearance is not even part of a dogma.
            and not how extremely is syncretism? It's not like it was something "new" that would make sense to be created right away, you know, delayed? especially considering the context.
            earliest occurring in 40 AD, when Mary is said to have appeared to James the Greater (one of the 12 apostles) in Zaragoza, Spain. Etc

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            mexicans don't worship mother earth you moronic mongoloid, pacha mama is peruvian and not even our indians do those kind of rituals. in fact that's an example of an aztec paintcoat being used for gyppo shit from elsewhere, as some hippies do pachamama ceremonies claiming it's mayan when it is not.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I didn't say it was Mexican. the moron who used her as an example while we were debating our lady as a whole.
            Don't put words in my mouth, you bastard. I responded to the accusation of his syncretism with our lady

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            except you said mexicans use "the two" (worship of mother earth exemplified by pachamama and of mary) as different things. he never brought up mexicans, you did
            i recommend you take some english classes

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            1. You don't know as much about Mexica mythology as you think you do, sameflag
            as shown here
            is here.

            mexicans don't worship mother earth you moronic mongoloid, pacha mama is peruvian and not even our indians do those kind of rituals. in fact that's an example of an aztec paintcoat being used for gyppo shit from elsewhere, as some hippies do pachamama ceremonies claiming it's mayan when it is not.

            and it was refuted here in its own area
            :

            >Imagined as a goddess, but perhaps possessing dual gender like one or two other primordial Mesoamerican deities, Tlaltecuhtli, with her masculine suffix, can be translated literally as 'Lord of the Earth' or, more typically, 'Lady of the Earth'. The goddess was imagined as a fat, frog-like monster with a large mouth, fangs, and clawed feet. Considered the source of all living beings, it should be maintained benevolently through blood sacrifices that would guarantee the continuity of the order of the world.
            >THE GODS DECREED THAT THE VARIOUS PARTS OF TLALTECUHTLI'S DISMEMBERED BODY SHOULD GIVE ORIGIN TO THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE NEW WORLD
            >So his skin turned into herbs and small flowers; her hair turned into trees, flowers and herbs; his eyes became fountains and wells; its nose turned into smaller mountains and valleys; your shoulders, the biggest mountains; and its mouth became caves and rivers.
            >claiming it's mayan
            possibly, they are more right than you at the end of the day, Juarez, no one called you out in the conversation.
            >Tlaltecuhtli, in various forms, is an ancient Mesoamerican deity, but the earliest representations in sculpture are found in the Mayan city of Mayapan in Yucatan.

            Coe, MD Mexico. Thames and Hudson, 2013.
            Jones, D. Aztec and Mayan Mythology. Água Sul, 2007.
            McEwan, C. Moctezuma Aztec ruler. British Museum
            Miller, ME An Illustrated Dictionary of the Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya. Thames and Hudson, 1997.
            Miller, ME The Art of Mesoamerica. Thames and Hudson, 2012.
            Nichols, DL The Oxford Handbook of Mesoamerican Archaeology. Oxford University Press, 2016.
            Townsend, RF The Aztecs. Thames and Hudson, 2009.

            2. I dare you and show me where I said this pagan trash was Mexican.
            like I said, I just responded to the false accusations that "he" (probably sameflag) made.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            1 that has nothing to do with what im talking about, the brazuca is autistic in his "gotcha"
            2 improve your english if you want to make yourself clear, i already told you where but your awful english obfuscates things
            also i thought you werent gonna post anymore, dumb homosexual

            >you moronic ESL shitalian
            Coming from you, how can it be an insult? you're mad? stop using insults with every word. and about being moronic, I'm not the one who used anachronistic examples, examples with false equivalence or correction, misinterpretation of history (dudee the conversion had syncretism), and of course, your incredibly moronic ability to say the same thing all the time about something that no one is against -he argued. who is moronic in the end? me or you?

            >said nothing of substance except arguing semantics
            You don't know what syncretism means and you don't know what semantics is.
            >in circles about folk
            I responded to your shit and you included, I explained to you why saying that conversions based on syncretism is something false. whether in Mexico or Europe. You simply don't know what "syncretism" is.
            >when you don't know shit about this continent
            I guarantee I know much more than you. You didn't even respond to me about Debating whether the Catholic Church created Western civilization and how it saved it.
            >overall just another garbage thread by favelado
            Why are you different exactly? Why are you atheist and historically moronic?
            >scared of magic
            you are an atheist, this should not be part of your argument, since even if he did not believe it, you should have exactly the same view on it.
            >and ruined by shitalian tradcath
            well I argued and answered your false accusations

            youre mixing stuff i said with stuff the second brazilian said, not surprised since you barely speak english and are obviously using a translator
            >you should have exactly the same view on it.
            what? i dont give a shit about magic because magic isn't real, it's not my problem the dumb favelado fears enchantments

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >claiming it's mayan
            >mexicans don't worship mother earth
            As I showed here and with sources, you are moronic and don't even know about Ese vato Aztec mythology.
            Juarez, see that the moron literally said this:
            >the conflation of pacha >mama with mary is an example.
            Read the entire context about what I was talking about with your particular paw, which was about our lady's syncretism. But go further to show that he simply has nothing more to say and needs to focus on useless examples when he has even lost his supposed knowledge of vato loca mythology.
            >and when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. See Juarez, I wasn't the one who said that your pagan goddess was Mexican... the subject was about supposed syncretism about our lady. And to finish throwing his disgusting body into the ditch, what did I ask the monkey:
            >I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples
            WHAT THE MONKEY SAID:
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            Even in defense of the monkey, no one actually explicitly said that his goddess was Mexican. The monkey mentioned Mexico in his sentence and perhaps that was the reason.
            I just said:
            >and when it (mary) arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. Doesn't imply I said I was Mexican or not LOL.
            >don't stop people to conflict the two or the church to use it to facilitate
            conversions
            The MONKEY who used this interchangeably about supposed syncretism and he who talked about his disgusting country. Yes, Juarez, I know that sometimes it's annoying to know that it's moronic, but lying and holding on to a single point is, at the very least, something that only a Mexican would do... oh wait.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >what? i dont give a shit about magic because magic isn't real, it's not my problem the dumb favelado fears enchantments
            Sameflag? The monkey said that, not you. Why are you protecting him? my answer was to the monkey, not to you juarez

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >youre mixing stuff i said with stuff the second brazilian said
            No, vato loko, I responded to the monkey's entire post, which was extremely this:[...]

            and yours was extremely this:[...]
            no sabes mentir juarez, orale

            terrible reading comprehension, you really need english classes. jesus

            >claiming it's mayan
            >mexicans don't worship mother earth
            As I showed here and with sources, you are moronic and don't even know about Ese vato Aztec mythology.
            Juarez, see that the moron literally said this:
            >the conflation of pacha >mama with mary is an example.
            Read the entire context about what I was talking about with your particular paw, which was about our lady's syncretism. But go further to show that he simply has nothing more to say and needs to focus on useless examples when he has even lost his supposed knowledge of vato loca mythology.
            >and when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. See Juarez, I wasn't the one who said that your pagan goddess was Mexican... the subject was about supposed syncretism about our lady. And to finish throwing his disgusting body into the ditch, what did I ask the monkey:
            >I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples
            WHAT THE MONKEY SAID:
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            Even in defense of the monkey, no one actually explicitly said that his goddess was Mexican. The monkey mentioned Mexico in his sentence and perhaps that was the reason.
            I just said:
            >and when it (mary) arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. Doesn't imply I said I was Mexican or not LOL.
            >don't stop people to conflict the two or the church to use it to facilitate
            conversions
            The MONKEY who used this interchangeably about supposed syncretism and he who talked about his disgusting country. Yes, Juarez, I know that sometimes it's annoying to know that it's moronic, but lying and holding on to a single point is, at the very least, something that only a Mexican would do... oh wait.

            aztec religion=/=ancient mayan religion=/=present day mayan beliefs=/=andean religion=/=mexican beliefs
            as for the rest about what you said, i dont care whether the 2nd brazuca is right about syncretism or not, but the italian seemed to imply pachamama is something mexicans believe in. it's his terrible english, he probably meant santa muerte or got confused when replying since his translator is funky and changes the posts he quotes
            and seriously, improve your english and format your posts correctly, theyre hard to understand

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            https://i.imgur.com/J3NCwEb.png

            >tu inglés es malo. ¿DE ACUERDO?
            > ¡Tu inglés es terrible! practica en clases de ingles
            You know you've already lost when that's all you have to say Juarez.
            You know you've already lost when that's all you have to say Juarez.
            >aztec religion=/=ancient mayan religion=/=present day mayan beliefs=/=andean religion=/=mexican beliefs
            as for the rest about what you said
            I just showed that you are ignorant even in the area that you supposedly dominate. and again
            >but the italian seemed to imply pachamama
            No Juarez.cynical, liar and moronic. The one who implied this was the monkey. I showed you ALL THE CONTEXT HERE:

            >claiming it's mayan
            >mexicans don't worship mother earth
            As I showed here and with sources, you are moronic and don't even know about Ese vato Aztec mythology.
            Juarez, see that the moron literally said this:
            >the conflation of pacha >mama with mary is an example.
            Read the entire context about what I was talking about with your particular paw, which was about our lady's syncretism. But go further to show that he simply has nothing more to say and needs to focus on useless examples when he has even lost his supposed knowledge of vato loca mythology.
            >and when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. See Juarez, I wasn't the one who said that your pagan goddess was Mexican... the subject was about supposed syncretism about our lady. And to finish throwing his disgusting body into the ditch, what did I ask the monkey:
            >I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples
            WHAT THE MONKEY SAID:
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            Even in defense of the monkey, no one actually explicitly said that his goddess was Mexican. The monkey mentioned Mexico in his sentence and perhaps that was the reason.
            I just said:
            >and when it (mary) arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. Doesn't imply I said I was Mexican or not LOL.
            >don't stop people to conflict the two or the church to use it to facilitate
            conversions
            The MONKEY who used this interchangeably about supposed syncretism and he who talked about his disgusting country. Yes, Juarez, I know that sometimes it's annoying to know that it's moronic, but lying and holding on to a single point is, at the very least, something that only a Mexican would do... oh wait.

            >he probably meant santa muerte or got confused when replying since his translator is funky and changes the posts he quotes
            Le English bad.
            No, you bastard. As I proved above, it wasn't me who said about Santa Muerte and the Mexican context.
            my challenge is still here;
            Show me where I said I was from Mexico.
            What did you mean by your photo? it proves how moronic you are. I replied to the monkey who isn't even here anymore and his comment. What's your point? oh maybe the use of "extremely"? besides not knowing vato loko mythology, he doesn't know that different languages require different ways of sentencing. here in Italy, it is quite common to use "extremely"

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You know you've already lost when that's all you have to say Juarez.
            it's a heads up, your posts are all jumbled up because of your bad english
            >I just showed that you are ignorant even in the area that you supposedly dominate. and again
            your post had nothing to do with the point of mine
            >The one who implied this was the monkey.
            no he wasn't

            >but how come Catholicism doesn't matter?
            *official catholicism, as in the doctrine of the church, don't matter for phenomena in question, the formation of syncretic beliefs among a population

            > he literally built Western civilization
            it didn't

            >I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples
            the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs

            >no. firstly, this is not Catholic
            does not matter, that is what happen
            people don't care about the official dogma, they act and believe what make sense to them

            > It is because of this that syncretism is not Catholic or was part of the history of the church.
            I was not talking about the history of the church nor about official dogmas, we are talking about what people de facto believe and how those beliefs come to be

            >Nobody here said that Latin Americans were trad
            and yet OP is shocked because the people aren't trads and follow a flexible mix of believes based on what they know and what makes sense to them
            that only makes sense if OP expected them to be trad and is shocked that they aren't

            >again, in a society with restricted Catholic teaching, no
            we are not talking about such societies

            > proof that Catholicism is bad and relativistic
            what are you even talking about
            I'm not talking about catholicism, but about what people believe and how they form believes

            >not imply that Catholicism is syncretistic
            not what was being argued
            and also wrong, go read about how missionary work was made

            >not imply that Catholicism is syncretistic
            brazillian meme, referring to an "famous" autistic tradlarper e-influencer

            simply said pacha mama was conflated with mary

            >official catholicism, as in the doctrine of the church, don't matter for phenomena in question, the formation of syncretic beliefs among a population
            it matters. He is the one who prevents such things.
            >it didn't
            he did. If you want, I can argue about it, do you want? moronic
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example
            this is not true. first than Pacha Mama”, aboriginal and traditionalist worship of mother earth, and has nothing to do with Mary, Marian veneration literally dates back to primitive Christianity. and when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the onus of this is yours.
            > as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            no. Santa muerte originates from African/Caribbean folklore and has been introduced in the last 100 or so years. It has nothing to do with Mesoamerica.
            >I wasn't talking about the history of the church
            Yes. and even about her, you are wrong. there was no syncretism.
            nor about official dogmas, we are talking about what people de facto believe and how those beliefs come to be
            As I said, this depends on the context of the country. this is a direct symptom of weak catechism and low Catholic social influence.
            >and yet OP is shocked because the people aren't trads and follow a flexible mix of beliefs based on what they know and what makes sense to them
            that only makes sense if OP expected them to be trad and is shocked that they aren't
            no one is talking about the OP, and everyone here agrees that mulattoes are not trads, do you want a prize for that one obviously? who claimed otherwise? the OP's question was about context. I'm surprised that you're the only one who doesn't know how to read basic sentences. Even the Mexican above understood this.
            >we are not talking about such societies
            we are. This is literally why your argument makes no sense. you use the flexibility of non-Catholic people as a basis.

            says pacha mama has nothing to do with mary and mentions mexico out of nowhere even though the 2nd brazilian never said pacha mama was mexican (the dumb italian got confused with the santa muerte thing)

            >He is the one who prevents such things
            1. *It* is the one, not *He* is the one
            2. it doesn't matter for what is being argued

            >he did.
            it didn't, that's not even controversial point and only trad caths still try to argue otherwise

            >this is not true
            is a textbook exemple

            >aboriginal and traditionalist worship of mother earth, and has nothing to do with Mary
            don't stop people to conflate the two or the church to use it to facilitate conversions

            >when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done
            santa muerte is an exemple of syncretism that happen in mexico, as is the virgin of guadalupe
            those are not even controversial exemples

            >Yes. and even about her, you are wrong. there was no syncretism.
            not the point

            > this is a direct symptom of weak catechism and low Catholic social influence.
            you don't know what is even being talked about

            >no one is talking about the OP
            this whole line is directly about OP and his shock about people not being trad enough

            >we are.
            no, we are talking about real societies

            >you use the flexibility of non-Catholic people as a basis.
            I use real life catholics, and de fact folk catholicism as basis to understand how those people develop their believes, directly answering OP question

            said pacha mama and mary having nothing to do with each other doesn't stop people from conflating them

            True
            >1. *It* is the one, not *He* is the one
            What do you mean, moronic?
            2. it doesn't matter for what is being argued
            It matters for two reasons;
            you use the same argument that no one has even used, which is considered a false premise and the basic subject here, about syncretism, in one way or another must be related to what the church preaches or not. for the simple fact that with this, we can know where the error is.
            >it didn't, that's not even controversial point and only trad caths still try to argue otherwise
            Are you challenging me? I leave the question and we can create a debate about it;
            The Catholic Church created and saved Western civilization. want to debate?
            >don't stop people to conflate the two or the church to use it to facilitate conversions
            You soon assume that you were wrong to say that you are part of a syncretism with Our Lady. Even for the Maxicans, they are used as different things and with different essences. Therefore, this does not fit into Catholic religious syncretism and even popular syncretism.
            >church to use it to facilitate conversions
            the church never used it to "convert" its moronic. One reasoned that the characteristics of the Santa Muerte had nothing in common with our Lady, in addition to granting abstracts as a "female saint", the church actually disowned such a cult. even in Mexico haha
            >santa muerte is an exemple of syncretism that happen in mexic
            No.
            >as is the virgin of guadalupe
            those are not even controversial exemples
            The Virgin of Guadalupe was not part of any type of syncretism. His own appearance is not even part of a dogma.
            and not how extremely is syncretism? It's not like it was something "new" that would make sense to be created right away, you know, delayed? especially considering the context.
            earliest occurring in 40 AD, when Mary is said to have appeared to James the Greater (one of the 12 apostles) in Zaragoza, Spain. Etc

            says the 2nd brazilian was wrong about syncretism and then mentions mexicans again even though they're talking about pacha mama
            so no, the 2nd brazilian did not say nor imply pacha mama was mexican, meanwhile the italian implied thru his terrible google translated english that pacha mama is a mexican thing
            >Le English bad.
            yes, bad english is noise, what either of you said is not clear
            >No, you bastard. As I proved above, it wasn't me who said about Santa Muerte and the Mexican context.
            these aren't words
            >Show me where I said I was from Mexico.
            who said you're from mexico? jesus
            >I replied to the monkey who isn't even here anymore and his comment.
            is this your first day at IQfy? do you not know what the (You) means? are you autistic?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >claiming it's mayan
            >mexicans don't worship mother earth
            As I showed here and with sources, you are moronic and don't even know about Ese vato Aztec mythology.
            Juarez, see that the moron literally said this:
            >the conflation of pacha >mama with mary is an example.
            Read the entire context about what I was talking about with your particular paw, which was about our lady's syncretism. But go further to show that he simply has nothing more to say and needs to focus on useless examples when he has even lost his supposed knowledge of vato loca mythology.
            >and when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. See Juarez, I wasn't the one who said that your pagan goddess was Mexican... the subject was about supposed syncretism about our lady. And to finish throwing his disgusting body into the ditch, what did I ask the monkey:
            >I know what it means, we are waiting for your monkey examples
            WHAT THE MONKEY SAID:
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            Even in defense of the monkey, no one actually explicitly said that his goddess was Mexican. The monkey mentioned Mexico in his sentence and perhaps that was the reason.
            I just said:
            >and when it (mary) arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done. the burden of this is yours. Doesn't imply I said I was Mexican or not LOL.
            >don't stop people to conflict the two or the church to use it to facilitate
            conversions
            The MONKEY who used this interchangeably about supposed syncretism and he who talked about his disgusting country. Yes, Juarez, I know that sometimes it's annoying to know that it's moronic, but lying and holding on to a single point is, at the very least, something that only a Mexican would do... oh wait.

            No

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            so you were talking about santa muerte when he was talking about pachamama
            toplel
            see mario, if you just knew how to speak english you would have made that clear from the get-go but it's all good
            i don't buy that story about santa muerte being syncretism. mary of guadalupe is debateable but santa muerte is bullshit, i hate homies who try to make her out to be some aztec goddess (who just so happened to disappear from the national consciousness from 1521 until the 1990s), it's just an attempt to exotify it.
            at least with mary of guadalupe there are records which show that indians used to worship a goddess in the tepeyac which is the reason they brought a virgin in the first place, but afterwards they worshipped her the same way they used to worship the goddess. overtime the spanish government and the church stamped this cult out though

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            so you were talking about santa muerte when he was talking about pachamama
            toplel
            see mario, if you just knew how to speak english you would have made that clear from the get-go but it's all good
            i don't buy that story about santa muerte being syncretism. mary of guadalupe is debateable but santa muerte is bullshit, i hate homies who try to make her out to be some aztec goddess (who just so happened to disappear from the national consciousness from 1521 until the 1990s), it's just an attempt to exotify it.
            at least with mary of guadalupe there are records which show that indians used to worship a goddess in the tepeyac which is the reason they brought a virgin in the first place, but afterwards they worshipped her the same way they used to worship the goddess. overtime the spanish government and the church stamped this cult out though

            wait no, sorry your english is really hard to understand
            so he's talking about pacha mama and you bring up mexico out of nowhere, you even admit no one said pacha mama is mexican... yet you brought up mexico
            >his disgusting country
            he's brazilian

            >says pacha mama has nothing to do with mary and mentions mexico out of nowhere
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            HE was the one who talked about Mexico, you bastard.
            >said pacha mama and mary having nothing to do with each other doesn't stop people from conflating them
            Translate text with your camera
            I already showed that I didn't say anything.
            he mentioned mexico first,
            >you even said something he said as if it were me ept you said mexicans use "the two.
            >the 2nd brazilian did not say nor imply pacha mama was mexican,
            I already said that. Didn't you read what I said, moron? But he was the one who started talking about Mexico. not me

            he was talking about santa muerte in mexico, not pacha mama you moronic wop
            >Translate text with your camera
            hahaha

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >says pacha mama has nothing to do with mary and mentions mexico out of nowhere
            >the conflation of pacha mama with mary is an example, as is santa muerte in mexico or the formation of things folk beliefs
            HE was the one who talked about Mexico, you bastard.
            >said pacha mama and mary having nothing to do with each other doesn't stop people from conflating them
            Translate text with your camera
            I already showed that I didn't say anything.
            he mentioned mexico first,
            >you even said something he said as if it were me ept you said mexicans use "the two.
            >the 2nd brazilian did not say nor imply pacha mama was mexican,
            I already said that. Didn't you read what I said, moron? But he was the one who started talking about Mexico. not me

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >youre mixing stuff i said with stuff the second brazilian said
            No, vato loko, I responded to the monkey's entire post, which was extremely this:

            you moronic ESL shitalian said nothing of substance except arguing semantics in circles about folk catholicism when you don't know shit about this continent
            overall just another garbage thread by favelado scared of magic and ruined by shitalian tradcath

            and yours was extremely this:

            except you said mexicans use "the two" (worship of mother earth exemplified by pachamama and of mary) as different things. he never brought up mexicans, you did
            i recommend you take some english classes

            no sabes mentir juarez, orale

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >mexicans don't worship mother earth
            Tlaltecuhtli, Earth Goddess. Calm down juarez

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Imagined as a goddess, but perhaps possessing dual gender like one or two other primordial Mesoamerican deities, Tlaltecuhtli, with her masculine suffix, can be translated literally as 'Lord of the Earth' or, more typically, 'Lady of the Earth'. The goddess was imagined as a fat, frog-like monster with a large mouth, fangs, and clawed feet. Considered the source of all living beings, it should be maintained benevolently through blood sacrifices that would guarantee the continuity of the order of the world.
            >THE GODS DECREED THAT THE VARIOUS PARTS OF TLALTECUHTLI'S DISMEMBERED BODY SHOULD GIVE ORIGIN TO THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE NEW WORLD
            >So his skin turned into herbs and small flowers; her hair turned into trees, flowers and herbs; his eyes became fountains and wells; its nose turned into smaller mountains and valleys; your shoulders, the biggest mountains; and its mouth became caves and rivers.
            >claiming it's mayan
            possibly, they are more right than you at the end of the day, Juarez, no one called you out in the conversation.
            >Tlaltecuhtli, in various forms, is an ancient Mesoamerican deity, but the earliest representations in sculpture are found in the Mayan city of Mayapan in Yucatan.

            Coe, MD Mexico. Thames and Hudson, 2013.
            Jones, D. Aztec and Mayan Mythology. Água Sul, 2007.
            McEwan, C. Moctezuma Aztec ruler. British Museum
            Miller, ME An Illustrated Dictionary of the Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya. Thames and Hudson, 1997.
            Miller, ME The Art of Mesoamerica. Thames and Hudson, 2012.
            Nichols, DL The Oxford Handbook of Mesoamerican Archaeology. Oxford University Press, 2016.
            Townsend, RF The Aztecs. Thames and Hudson, 2009.

            except they explicitly call it pachamama which is not equivalent as andeans are completely different from mesoamericans.
            mesoamerican religion died out and modern larpagan shows have no continuity back into the viceroyalty, let alone the prehispanic period

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This. Christgays are engaging in PVRE larpery by practicing a dead religion that they have no connection to.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Imagined as a goddess, but perhaps possessing dual gender like one or two other primordial Mesoamerican deities, Tlaltecuhtli, with her masculine suffix, can be translated literally as 'Lord of the Earth' or, more typically, 'Lady of the Earth'. The goddess was imagined as a fat, frog-like monster with a large mouth, fangs, and clawed feet. Considered the source of all living beings, it should be maintained benevolently through blood sacrifices that would guarantee the continuity of the order of the world.
            >THE GODS DECREED THAT THE VARIOUS PARTS OF TLALTECUHTLI'S DISMEMBERED BODY SHOULD GIVE ORIGIN TO THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE NEW WORLD
            >So his skin turned into herbs and small flowers; her hair turned into trees, flowers and herbs; his eyes became fountains and wells; its nose turned into smaller mountains and valleys; your shoulders, the biggest mountains; and its mouth became caves and rivers.
            >claiming it's mayan
            possibly, they are more right than you at the end of the day, Juarez, no one called you out in the conversation.
            >Tlaltecuhtli, in various forms, is an ancient Mesoamerican deity, but the earliest representations in sculpture are found in the Mayan city of Mayapan in Yucatan.

            Coe, MD Mexico. Thames and Hudson, 2013.
            Jones, D. Aztec and Mayan Mythology. Água Sul, 2007.
            McEwan, C. Moctezuma Aztec ruler. British Museum
            Miller, ME An Illustrated Dictionary of the Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya. Thames and Hudson, 1997.
            Miller, ME The Art of Mesoamerica. Thames and Hudson, 2012.
            Nichols, DL The Oxford Handbook of Mesoamerican Archaeology. Oxford University Press, 2016.
            Townsend, RF The Aztecs. Thames and Hudson, 2009.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Who cares if pagan trash is Mexica or Mayan? no one cares, just the Mexican above. This is irrelevant to what I actually said.
            Well, I'm out. What I had to say, I already said, you can discuss it among yourselves at will. Thank you for the waste of time;
            Sir historically illiterate atheist, the Emílio Sanchez de la villa nueva, the history teacher of asteca ese vato and Brazilian trolls

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            you moronic ESL shitalian said nothing of substance except arguing semantics in circles about folk catholicism when you don't know shit about this continent
            overall just another garbage thread by favelado scared of magic and ruined by shitalian tradcath

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >you moronic ESL shitalian
            Coming from you, how can it be an insult? you're mad? stop using insults with every word. and about being moronic, I'm not the one who used anachronistic examples, examples with false equivalence or correction, misinterpretation of history (dudee the conversion had syncretism), and of course, your incredibly moronic ability to say the same thing all the time about something that no one is against -he argued. who is moronic in the end? me or you?

            >said nothing of substance except arguing semantics
            You don't know what syncretism means and you don't know what semantics is.
            >in circles about folk
            I responded to your shit and you included, I explained to you why saying that conversions based on syncretism is something false. whether in Mexico or Europe. You simply don't know what "syncretism" is.
            >when you don't know shit about this continent
            I guarantee I know much more than you. You didn't even respond to me about Debating whether the Catholic Church created Western civilization and how it saved it.
            >overall just another garbage thread by favelado
            Why are you different exactly? Why are you atheist and historically moronic?
            >scared of magic
            you are an atheist, this should not be part of your argument, since even if he did not believe it, you should have exactly the same view on it.
            >and ruined by shitalian tradcath
            well I argued and answered your false accusations

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >pacha mama
            >mexico
            moron

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >He is the one who prevents such things
            1. *It* is the one, not *He* is the one
            2. it doesn't matter for what is being argued

            >he did.
            it didn't, that's not even controversial point and only trad caths still try to argue otherwise

            >this is not true
            is a textbook exemple

            >aboriginal and traditionalist worship of mother earth, and has nothing to do with Mary
            don't stop people to conflate the two or the church to use it to facilitate conversions

            >when it arrived in Mexico, no type of syncretism was done
            santa muerte is an exemple of syncretism that happen in mexico, as is the virgin of guadalupe
            those are not even controversial exemples

            >Yes. and even about her, you are wrong. there was no syncretism.
            not the point

            > this is a direct symptom of weak catechism and low Catholic social influence.
            you don't know what is even being talked about

            >no one is talking about the OP
            this whole line is directly about OP and his shock about people not being trad enough

            >we are.
            no, we are talking about real societies

            >you use the flexibility of non-Catholic people as a basis.
            I use real life catholics, and de fact folk catholicism as basis to understand how those people develop their believes, directly answering OP question

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I use real life catholics
            Nah.You're just moronic.
            He used evidence, a photo of Pope Francis, then Santa Muerte, then he used the appearance of Mary in Mexico, etc.
            Still regarding the supposed syncretism that the church did, we must keep something in mind..
            They could no longer be considered Catholic if they decided to do such a thing. The missionaries did not syncretize with the natives they tried to convert so much; they in fact (this is where your mistake comes in)
            they tried to *understand* native cultures and make their own religion easier to understand for them, but it is not true that they would then have taken the next step and made a fake being to make converts. he understands? the same example as the Romans and Greeks, the church knew that it is one thing to destroy the religion of a people, another to destroy their culture completely, and this culture includes their clothes, languages and, of course, festivities. and these same festivities, when they were not inherently pagan, the church removed what was pagan, and the definition of syncretism extends to where exactly? Would it be syncretism to use pagan philosophy too? or who knows how to use the Roman calendar? Can you see that you don't even have a basic definition of what religious syncretism is, and you continue using people with little Catholic training and using them as real "Catholics", while at the same time ignoring Catholic societies that did not present such problems?
            again.
            Such actions would have been extremely contrary to the Faith. and only the perspective of Our Lady of Guadalupe being the product of syncretism cannot be true due to the very fact that the Spanish considered the Aztecs and their deities as pagans, as false gods and goddesses, and like demons from which idols were made. and adored

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >you seem stupid to understand the concept of syncretism
      my comment literally alluded to this, who is stupid? me or you who uses insults for no apparent reason? and by the logic of syncretism, I'm curious to know how exactly the church used syncretism. Or do you intend to talk about Easter and meme stuff? show me your arguments.
      >and how culture and spiritual traditions evolve
      spiritual traditions that were obviously outside the Catholic "bubble" and as they were considered pagan, are not part of and have not been part of the culture as a whole. It is not a tradition for you to revive something and try to integrate in some way with the dominant religion to deceive new members and use dirty practices saying that believing in God even with the generous deities obviously, or of course, saying that holy X is intuition Y.
      >most Brazilians are not trad larpers and
      You use scarecrows to appear intelligent, it doesn't actually make you intelligent. Everyone has said this here several times.
      >like most people, they will go with what they know/think works for them and makes sense to them
      no. Catholicism has always preached against any kind of religious subjectivism or relativism, and for a long time Catholic people did or did this. Latinos end up in this because of their low Catholic education and easy manipulation. we don't see some small towns in France or Spain adhering to such things.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Because they’re low iq peasants with a far more recent history of practicing non-monotheistic religions. Also, most of them aren’t satanic as they don’t worship an adversarial figure, rather intervening spirits

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Catholicism is just demon worshippers hiding their demons behind saints and pretending they are worshipping holy beings to avoid being burned at the stake.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Third worlder thinks everything outside himself is Satanic

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Well, looking at all this fight between Luigi corleone, Carlito Sanchez and João Padro dos Santos, I can only conclude that certain countries should not use the Internet.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      nah. I have nothing to do really. Friday is a day to waste time
      i honestly can afford to fight with people who should be busy about how to pick up sister ofelia in tijuana or atheists who use memes as a basis ;). you almost got my name right, it's another very common one by the way

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Francesco.
        Anthony. ...
        Enzo. ...
        Marcelo. ...
        Leonardo. ...

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Do you know what Italian names are my brother?
          Anyway, you're almost there.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            in truth no. I just wanted to see the fight you morons and how each one is more moronic with each post.
            but I think the Mexican excels a little.
            I have some Italian family members, their names are all stereotypical

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I suspect you are a sameflag, I don't know who exactly. but I could be wrong. Are you american? Many Italians actually migrated to America. mainly from the central-south regions, the same in some countries in South America.

            some Italians who migrate to other places, usually change their names to suit the country, in Portuguese speaking countries Luigi becomes "luis" etc.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            nop.
            I'm an American from NY, there are many Italian communities here, especially food and clothes

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            With all due respect, do not use these festivities as some kind of representation of Italian culture. see that it is natural that when people X migrate to place Y, assimilation (if they did not have 60% native blood) ends up happening one way or another. I mean, an Italian-American would be seen by his Italian great-grandfather as culturally distinct. and their ""Italian"" pizzas are terrible

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >and their ""Italian"" pizzas are terrible
            Dude?! I don't see any difference between pizzas lol how can a pizza be real or fake?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Italian pizza uses canned tomatoes or passata, maybe with some of the following: oil salt basil or oregano. American pizza usually has garlic, sugar, and other herbs and spices additionally added and is often times also cooked before applying it on.
            we use really good mozzarella when all the world uses strange "cheese"

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Italian pizza
            By the way there is no “Italian” style pizza, you have regional differences. In the south thick and cross, in the middle thick and pancake-stylish and in the north thin and cross.
            What really irritates me is how Italian people need entire neighborhoods for their parties. your women are very ugly

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            it makes sense, but even so, there is a difference between Italian pizzas and pizzas from outside the country.
            And I don't know what you mean, what do you mean "parties"? at least our women take showers haha

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why did you stop fighting with Carlos?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            because he is moronic and was talking about a pagan goddess. and said that I wrote things I didn't say lol

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >post counter goes up
    >no bump
    you alright OP? took your pills yet?

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Woa! You're telling me that a society with a combination of African populations, injuns, and Catholics has weird religious beliefs present? Bizarre!

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