>read Illiad. >find the Greeks to be warmongering savages

>read Illiad
>find the Greeks to be warmongering savages
>Agamemnon is a shamless c**t whereas Hector is a man of honour and family and is more interested in defending his family and homeland than continuing a bitter grudge
>Achilles is a whiny b***h but he was right not to fight for the Greeks, who were disrepectful
>the one man who speaks sense among the whole Greek army is verbally berated for being an ugly coward
>all the gods literally want the Trojans to win
>a Greek "hero" tries to physically attack a god, showing no respect for the gods who rule them

>read the Odyssey
>despite Odysseus's so called intelligence and puzzle solving skills, he manages to lead his men into deadly traps each time
>he orders all the servant girls who fricked the suitors to be killed with them, even though they were probably raped by the wicked, greedy suitors
>is literally a violent psychopath at the end and has learnt nothing from all his time away. he is still a warmongering brute
>pisses of Poseidon

>read the Aeneid
>Aeneas is a sympathetic character, find myself entangled in his sorrowful yearning for his sacked home
>is a good leader and prefers diplomacy over violence and creates an ordered city, which then becomes one of the most sophisticated empires in history
>earns the gods' favour through being a devouted follower

/lit/, the wrong side won the battle of Troy...

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    kek you completely failed to understand greek morality. there is no wrong side, there's only your side and their side.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah, face it, the Greeks were no better than the average Black person. The Trojans were the real protectors of civilisation. Zeus was correct to favour them.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        on the contrary Black folk are right (though moronic) and modern white people are naive morons that get shat on by based moral particularist tribalists. you took the wrong lesson.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You just misunderstand heroism in the way a Greek would likely have understood it. Achilles is not a hero because he's a 'good man,' but because he's everything other men are and more. He's stronger than them, he feels more deeply than them, whether it be his rage or compassion. He is a complete abundance. This is what makes him great. And he's heroic despite the fact that he's a whiny petulant brat.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      on the contrary Black folk are right (though moronic) and modern white people are naive morons that get shat on by based moral particularist tribalists. you took the wrong lesson.

      >he orders all the servant girls who fricked the suitors to be killed with them
      yeah just being honest, I couldn't get over that, and I try to be le based edgy right wing boi, masculinity and lifting and all that

      You can't even capitalize your sentences, you pretentious hipster twat. I guess capitalization is too "authoritative" or "patriarchal" for you, homosexual. Go chop off your wiener since you probably think masculinity is "toxic" too, fricking deliberately illiterate gays.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >the wrong side won the battle of Troy
      Everyone agrees. There's a reason why Hector was held as one of the nine worthy as an example of virtue and chivalry in the middle ages and not Achilles or any of the greeks

      >you completely failed to understand greek morality. there is no wrong sid
      Odyssey introduces the concept of gods rewarding and punishing you for your actions

      [...]
      [...]
      You can't even capitalize your sentences, you pretentious hipster twat. I guess capitalization is too "authoritative" or "patriarchal" for you, homosexual. Go chop off your wiener since you probably think masculinity is "toxic" too, fricking deliberately illiterate gays.

      what a bizzare post

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah, face it, the Greeks were no better than the average Black person. The Trojans were the real protectors of civilisation. Zeus was correct to favour them.

      I think you two are the literal Black folk.

      Your polis is your family. Of course you're going to stand with your family.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Your map doesn’t make sense since Ogygia is given a Mediterranean-Esque description in story with fauna of the Ned region. Fun fact though: if you follow Plutarch’s description, Ogygia is located on Rockall island in the middle of the North Atlantic.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I disagree. All of the geographic clues point to a northern location.
          >foggy hills
          >wine dark sea
          >Troy is supposed to open into an open bay (still possible with most northern Atlantic locations)

          I will investigate the Rockall location though ! 🙂

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Here are Plutarch's exact words

            >Well, I am but the actor of the piece, but first I shall say that its author began for our sake — if there be no objection — with a quotation from Homer:300

            An isle, Ogygia, lies far out at sea,301

            >a run of five days off from Britain as you sail westward; and three other islands equally distant from it and from one another lie out from it in the general direction of the summer sunset.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >all the gods literally want the Trojans to win
    The father of all the gods literally wanted the Trojans to win*

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >all the gods literally want the Trojans to win
      Not Zeus, Hera, Athena, Poseidon...

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The only pro-Trojan gods are Aphrodite and Ares. I feel like there’s one more but I can’t recall off hand.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Eos, Scamander, Apollo, and Artemis.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Scamander is a River deity first of all and I was referring to the main pantheon. Secondly, I think he was more concerned with Achilles polluting his river with corpses rather than who was winning at the moment.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Book 20 names
          Neutral: Zeus, Hades
          Greek: Hera, Athena, Poseidon, Hermes, Hephaestus, Leto
          Trojan: Ares, Apollo, Artemis, Xanthus, Aphrodite

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Hermes
            I think he is Neutral. In fact, doesn't he only show up at the very end to help Priam?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah Leto is pro-Troy, book 20 lists the match ups
            Apollo against Poseidon
            Ares against Athena,
            Artemis against Hera
            Leto against Hermes
            Hephaestus against Xanthus

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Apollo against Poseidon
            One of my absolute favorite passages is, after seeing Athena smash a boulder against Ares' face, Poseidon and Apollo basically look at eachother like "we're seriously not going to actually fight over these mortals, right? Lets get outta here."

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            When does Leto fight Hermes? All i recall from the matchups was Hera saying something like "if you won't discipline your kids, I will" and then slapping Artemis up and down the plain

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They don't all get a fight and they're not equally motivated, there's just a passage where it's described one is against the other.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Your entire scoreboard matchup is misleading. Hephaestus was on Zeus’ behalf and Xanthus was just protecting his River bed in the first place.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's literally this passage
            https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D20%3Acard%3D54
            Whatever is misleading about it is from your own presuppositions.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Wait and come to think of it, Leto is on the Trojan side, just by virtue of her children being there.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah Leto is pro-Troy, book 20 lists the match ups
            Apollo against Poseidon
            Ares against Athena,
            Artemis against Hera
            Leto against Hermes
            Hephaestus against Xanthus

            Hephaestus against Xanthus was because the gods favored Achilles and wanted him to get out of the fray to fulfill his fate in the duel against Hector. As I said above, it wasn’t actually for any ideological reason over Troy.

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >he orders all the servant girls who fricked the suitors to be killed with them
    yeah just being honest, I couldn't get over that, and I try to be le based edgy right wing boi, masculinity and lifting and all that

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Because the Iliad used to be about the gods themselves, until they were turned into mortals. Hence why they act like buttholes

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    t. Dante

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The good guys always lose, anon.

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >showing no respect for the gods who rule them
    If I was an Ancient Greek I wouldn't respect them either because they are all massive c**ts

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yea, they are, but it is shown time and time again if you pay respect to them they take favour on you. Hence why Zeus favoured the Trojans. The only reason the tide of battle changed was because his roastie wife and daughter got one over him.

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    On points

    is a shamless c**t whereas Hector is a man of honour and family and is more interested in defending his family and homeland than continuing a bitter grudge
    >>>the one man who speaks sense among the whole Greek army is verbally berated for being an ugly coward

    What you fail to understand is that by insulting Agamemnon to the other Greeks, Thersites was betraying his own homeland and insulting all of them. It wasn’t like today where you can just criticize the president or leader of your country wantonly. The king in this case Agamemnon wasn’t only a leader who was keeping everyone together but he was the very embodiment of their nation. Thersites actions don’t make sense nowadays because you have a liberal worldview of individual autonomy whereas Greece was a collective whole.

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    North Korea’s government is obviously far off from what Greece is like but this one woman’s interview about what the leader is like is very reminiscent to me of kings in the time before Feudalism and before the modern era.

    This sort of ancient worldview that the leader of your state is immune from criticism NOT because he isn’t imperfect but rather because his leadership is what keeps your state together is very intriguing in how disparate nations in Asia and in Ancient Greece held similar views.

  10. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >IQfy, the wrong side won the battle of Troy...
    That's literally the entire point of the Iliad. Was this not obvious?

  11. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Now that I finally draw to the end of this interminable work [The Iliad], I find the light section about funeral games to be among its worst sections. Pointless male bantering and competition, and all for nothing in the end, like all athletics. I will be happy to be done with it, once and for all, never revisiting it again. But I will slog through the other two on principle. Now that I understand that these works are bereft of literary value, I can overcome them. They have nothing of value to say about the human condition, and I feel enriched by reading something that I do not care about, the better to reject it from a position of knowledge.

    At the same time, I am also happy that my recent praise of Thersites on this board, the only character worth liking in the entire book, seems to be shared by the OP. Also, I don't get why people like Hector. There's a scene with his family, yes, and he's contrasted with his homosexual coward brother Paris, but none of this really endears him to us. He gets his turbo-charge in the middle but comes off like a dick. The original sin was Paris carting the b***h off, and stupidly, all the other men fall in to help avenge some other guy's b***h. Not to defend modernity of course, but this ancient value system with some sort of abstract honor was plainly stupid, and overall worse.

    OTOH I appreciate that, like the bible, it's a man's book. Hundreds of men are named. Just a few b***hes, and the only women with any meaningful input are goddesses. The mortal women are scarcely worth mentioning by name.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Pointless male bantering and competition, and all for nothing in the end, like all athletics. I will be happy to be done with it, once and for all, never revisiting it again.

      The point of that section is it shows in contrast to the bickering between Agamemnon and Achilles, that problems between one another can be solved by reaching a middle ground and handled in a better way if the people at hand are willing to work together. The contestants in the games such as in the chariot race, fight with one another as to who is the rightful winner but they are able to come to a rational conclusion instead of just going to their tent to pout. That chapter is important as a contrast.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Their rapproachment [sic] was already obviously building up, the details of the games add nothing. People are being magnanimous, which is easy when you've won, as you indicated with the chariot thing. OTOH when the young guy is smart and actually backs off it works out, but Hey everybody we just fought a horrible battle and barely came out on top, okay guys for fun let's tussle and banter and bleed some more. Makes no sense. The human condition makes no sense. After something like that the rational man wants to go back to his boat and sleep for a month. But of course this is mythic fiction, hence etc.

        Here guys, here's a bowl. Oooh, a half-bar of gold. Whoop-dee-doo.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Well it’s not just fiction. It’s commentary on human behavior. When people are willing to have a tete a tete and listen to each other’s perspectives things go more swillingly than skulking by their beaked ships. That’s not anything to do with the book. It is entirely thematic and it serves as contrast to the brooding Achilles.

  12. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Odyssey is fiction

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