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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Xorg is le insecure just like me

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Sure thing, that'll be $399.99
    Just post your credit card number, expiration date, and CVC code, I promise not to charge a dime more.

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Makes programs blurry like modern windows. dislike

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Have you ever thought that Linux is not fragmented enough, and its desktop environments are not siloed enough?

    Does it piss you off that with some xrandr calls from bash, or by using the X protocol directly from Python, you can create advanced monitor setup scripts that are portable between every desktop environment and window manager? Would you prefer to have several different ways to do this depending on DE/WM, so that your scripts need to have a giant else-if chain and speak several different protocols?

    Do you think it's a travesty that you can apply a huge variety of tweaks to your keyboard layout with setxkbmap commands which work on any WM/DE and take effect immediately? Do you think it would be way better for every compositor to have its own way of handling keyboard layout settings, usually with fewer features than setxkbmap and often requiring a restart to take effect?

    Do you love the GNOME approach to features, and wish that the developers of core system components had it too. Does it fill you with confidence about the project when you see that the devs respond to every feature request with "you're wrong, you don't need that, WONTFIX", then quietly relent and add the feature several years later.

    Would you say that the pinnacle of production-ready software is a protocol that has been in development for 15 years, but is still so incomplete that unless you're the biggest turbonormie on Earth, you'll be using a dozen unstable and compositor-specific extensions daily?

    If you answered yes to the questions above, congratulations! Wayland is for you. You will love it. Install it today.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Do you love the GNOME approach to features, and wish that the developers of core system components had it too. Does it fill you with confidence about the project when you see that the devs respond to every feature request with "you're wrong, you don't need that, WONTFIX",
      Huh, sounds just like the teams at Canonical and Signal messenger.

      Why are some open source projects so frickin gay?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Why are some open source projects so frickin gay?
        Money.
        The people writing this shit aren't doing anything for fun or because they can, they're doing it sold that some megacorp can sell consulting and enterprise licenses. Quality of life and extensibility features are the domain of whatever the big tech companies want, otherwise end users can get fricked.
        Free Software is a shell of it's former self, wrapped up in technobro garbage. Gentoo doesn't even require a stage 2 bootstrap to install anymore.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Gentoo (like Wayland) has always been shit, actual competent GNU/Linux users have always made fun of it, for good reason.

          https://www.greenfly.org/mes.html

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >GNOME approach
      >the devs respond to every feature request with "you're wrong, you don't need that, WONTFIX", then quietly relent and add the feature several years later.
      FAKE NEWS
      20 years later, foot STILL doesn't have thumbnails in the file picker

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I'm staying with X for another 5-10 years.
      Frick trannies.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You frick trannies? That's disgusting anon.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No. You are a troony. Go frick yourself.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's not slow as frick. Ever wanted that snappy feeling Windows and Mac have managing Windows? Yeah. That's Wayland.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Ever wanted that integration between windows and lack of pointless isolation that Windows and Mac have? Yeah. That's X11.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Windows has isolation, you need to run programs with elevated privileges for them to use global bindings. Mac also has isolation but will let you have a nice day and also give you the rope to do it.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous
    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      If that were at all true we wouldn't have a bunch of great window managers popping up for Wayland, we wouldn't have tools like grim, hyprpicker and kanshi, replicants of tools like xrandr, xpicker and scrot for X11. This annoying tub of lard forgot to check reality before he shat out his smooth-brained opinion.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >grim, hyprpicker and kanshi, replicants of tools like xrandr, xpicker and scrot for X11
        Is this supposed to be somehow impressive? The Wayland tools you pointed out are copies of simple tools from X11, except they're worse because they only work on a specific subset of compositors, using unofficial protocols. You've just proved that guy right.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >You've just proved that guy right.
          If people need a tool to work with another subset of compositors they will just create those too. There's nothing wrong with that.
          >using unofficial protocols
          And that's a good thing. I am fundamentally not in the bootcamp of everything being tied to a single monolithic structure where it doesn't make any sense. If people want to develop their own unofficial protocol extensions they can do that.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah sure bro, pointless duplication of work and regressions in functionality are actually great. It's definitely better to have a separate set of tools for every group of compositors than to have a single set of tools that works the same way everywhere. It's even better if these new tools have less functionality, and require a restart to apply changes that didn't need a restart before (keyboard layout stuff, for example).

            While we're at it, let's also make every desktop environment use a different .desktop file format. We could also make Red Hat derived distros use a different shebang format from the rest, perhaps :! instead of #!. We should also make every group of distros use a different libc, just for shits and giggles.

            You Wayland morons are a fricking parody of yourselves. First you said that the picture is wrong, now you're admitting that it's all true but you're pretending that the glaring flaws are somehow good.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >(keyboard layout stuff, for example)
            I don't have to restart my compositor to change input options or layouts. Just another case of you not being aware of reality.
            >t's definitely better to have a separate set of tools for every group of compositors than to have a single set of tools that works the same way everywhere.
            I see no reason people should be beholden to a single monolith by which they develop their tools. The style wayland compositors are developed in encourages ingenuity, competition and quality implementation. X methodically is the complete opposite of that. It encourages stagnation. This load of shit over Wayland compositors not being able to introduce their own mechanism for fear of being different from their kin just isn't true, and never will be. If anything, X through its structure made this problem much worse. Every window manager that attempts to implement X to any of its standards will wind up with issues like lack of alpha channel support in xembed and other cases.

            It's not consistent enough in its own structure to even provide what you want. GNOME and KDE both stepped outside of X regularly to accomplish their own design patterns.
            >less functionality
            The tools I use are comparable or better than those that were provided via X for my purposes, they're also all much faster. Again, total disconnect between reality and your fantasy world where nothing works and no one ever develops any software for compositor ecosystems.
            >First you said that the picture is wrong
            You mean the article, smooth-brain? Yes, it is still wrong.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Just another case of you not being aware of reality.
            Last time I tried it on GNOME, some setting changes made from the CLI did require a restart to take effect.
            >beholden to a single monolith
            >encourages ingenuity
            You are just a moron repeating meaningless buzzwords. There's nothing bad and restrictive about having a single implementation for core stuff that everyone wants anyway, like monitor management and keyboard layout management. There's also nothing innovative about the same exact work being duplicated in every compositor and its set of command-line tools. It's just a pointless waste of time that Wayland forces on people. You get higher quality implementations when open-source devs pool their effort, instead of splitting it across many different tools that are incompatible for no reason other than Wayland being a terrible idea.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >There's nothing bad and restrictive about having a single implementation for core stuff that everyone wants anyway,
            Yeah there is especially when its own spec is implemented in a completely inconsistent manner. You can't go back and change any of that shit without breaking every single WM and DE which supports that part of X. Having a central monolith outside of the kernel is always fricking stupid.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Having a central monolith outside of the kernel is always fricking stupid.
            It's a good idea for many things. You can have a monolith that does its job well and can be evolved. You "unix philosophy" morons just want fragment things as much as possible with no regard to how much duplication of effort that will cause in the open source community, which is the actual stupid thing.

            >keyboard layout management.
            Also every compositor just uses libinput. It's not like each WM with their different configuration formats for input wrote their own fricking input library for X, they sure as shit didn't call to something like xmodmap. This is the biggest problem with you X schizos, you have no idea what you're fricking talking about.

            Aaand... now you're pointing to libinput as this kind of centralized monolith and saying that it's a good thing. Can you be consistent for one thread, you worthless moron? Talking to you is like talking to some 80 IQ nationalist who insists that his country is at the same time incredibly strong and a helpless victim of other countries. You're simultaneously insisting that I'm wrong when I'm claim that there's lots of fragmentation, and that it's actually a good thing that Wayland fragments everything. Make up your mind, you brainless shill.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >keyboard layout management.
            Also every compositor just uses libinput. It's not like each WM with their different configuration formats for input wrote their own fricking input library for X, they sure as shit didn't call to something like xmodmap. This is the biggest problem with you X schizos, you have no idea what you're fricking talking about.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            By "keyboard layout management", I presume that anon meant totally remapping keys and layouts (i.e. setxkbmap). I don't think wayland has any equivalent right now and it's compositor dependent.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I don't think wayland has any equivalent right now and it's compositor dependent.
            Literally any kind of software that works on a layer below the compositor is going to be able to handle that, what the frick are you on about.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Here this is literally in 2 seconds of googling evdev remap
            https://gitlab.com/interception/linux/tools
            https://github.com/wez/evremap

            >works on a layer below the compositor
            >evdev
            So you just confirmed what I said. You have to bypass wayland to do this and now there's additional complexity since you possibly may worry about elevated privileges and all of that.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            > You have to bypass wayland
            >bypass wayland
            This is literally below wayland, there is no "bypass".
            >you possibly may worry about elevated privileges
            oh no
            so anyway

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >This is literally below wayland, there is no "bypass"
            uh yes, that's the very definition of bypass. You skip the wayland layer, ignore it's security, and go below it. I guess you are happy with this, but basically this is just another case of people working around around wayland's limitations since they didn't implement this.

            Like here you are b***hing about not having some sort of fricking core tool to work with and you're also complaining about working with THE tool for input. Something that is completely independent of any kind of display server whatsoever. You are just an enormous hypocrite.

            That wasn't me.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >ignore it's security
            its*
            There is no "ignoring" its security. It's not like other GUI applications are suddenly going to be able to read inputs because you decided to handle input events at almost the lowest layer possible. This has _nothing_ to do with with the security wayland aims to provide.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            uh you can read all keys with evdev buddy. If that's not breaking wayland's security, I don't what is

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >If that's not breaking wayland's security, I don't what is
            With an application that doesn't exist inside a display server. You're creating a virtual device and then just passing that as if it would be a regular keyboard to wayland. The applications inside a wayland server aren't going to suddenly be able to read every single input coming through wayland because of that. There is literally no difference in terms of security inside the server.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >With an application that doesn't exist inside a display server. You're creating a virtual device and then just passing that as if it would be a regular keyboard to wayland.
            You literally just explained how this application bypasses wayland and then asserted that there is "literally no difference in terms of security inside the server". I mean obviously if a malicious application was reading evdev, wayland can't save you and your wayland applications could be compromised by the bad inputs. I'm not sure why you seem unable to grasp this.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >bypasses wayland
            It doesn't bypass wayland you moron. It goes INTO wayland from the BOTTOM UP. That's not a BYPASS.
            evdev -> remap -> wayland
            >I mean obviously if a malicious application was reading evdev wayland can't save you
            No shit? What the hell does that have to do anything? It doesn't matter if you have a remapper below wayland at that point because it's READING DIRECTLY FROM EVDEV.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It's seems you've devolved into some bizarre semantical argument over the definition of bypass instead of addressing actual substance so I guess we're done here.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            There is no substance, you're talking about an application that broke into evdev and is reading directly from it, it's literally INSIDE THE KERNEL. It's BELOW the key remapper.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            An application that reads evdev directly breaks wayland's security model. That's all I was saying. Calm down. One of entire points of wayland is that user applications can't see key inputs from other applications

            >responsible for handling user input, handle user input.
            Oh yeah and I suppose X11 just handles input when it's not running too? Fricking moron. The kernel is responsible for handling input, not the display server.

            are you trying to start some bizarre semantic argument again

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >One of entire points of wayland is that user applications can't see key inputs from other applications
            And remapping input events directly from evdev before it gets handled by the compositor doesn't magically allow applications to do that. That's like saying that the kernel is inherently against the security model of wayland because it handles input, you fricking moron.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Reading /dev/input directly also breaks wayland's security model, wtf is wrong with you man

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Reading /dev/input directly also breaks wayland's security model,
            No, wayland's security model is supposed to prevent GUI applications from intercepting key events processed BY THE SERVER. If they're being manipulated on a lower layer it has NOTHING to do with wayland's security model.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sounds like a pointless semantic argument you just made up. Either way, a user application is getting key events, so the outcome is the same.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >pointless semantic argument
            There's nothing semantic about it. The technical implementation of wayland and its security protocols has nothing to do with applications that are running outside the server and you are total brainlet for trying to state otherwise.

            Okay so if you open up a gaping security hole and keylog without using wayland APIs, it's all good. what a bizarre human being. Also I would like to point out that the "GUI applications" part of your definition is silly because there are a ton of cli wayland applications obviously.

            >cli wayland applications obviously.
            Oh and pray tell god's gift to fricking computer science what do you run those applications inside?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >what do you run those applications inside
            a separate tty of course not that it would make a difference because its not a gui inside a wayland server

            Sounds like a pointless semantic argument you just made up. Either way, a user application is getting key events, so the outcome is the same.

            nta but thats not semantic, go ahead and explain how Wayland's security model is supposed to cover layers that exist beneath it

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Oh and pray tell god's gift to fricking computer science what do you run those applications inside?
            I don't know why asserted this as if it's some kind of "got you" (it's also yet another strange argument over semantics; seems to be a lot of those in this thread hmm), but you can run them in another tty obviously. Just connect to the wayland socket. Do you actually know anything about how any of this software works?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >but you can run them in another tty obviously.
            Great, and now you're outside of the server and not in a GUI which has nothing to do with the wayland security model.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm going to guess you've never written any x11 or wayland code in your life

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No you're just a blithering moron who is trying to say that Wayland's security model is about covering cases on layers that exist beneath it. As if it's supposed to somehow cover evdev and the kernel.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            you're the one having trouble compartmentalizing the idea that a remapper sitting between evdev and wayland doesn't allow gui applications to read evdev

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah you could do that, but guess what, applications inside the server can't see that event unless the compositor passes it to them. You're starting to getting now.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No you're just a blithering moron who is trying to say that Wayland's security model is about covering cases on layers that exist beneath it. As if it's supposed to somehow cover evdev and the kernel.

            You aren't arguing in good faith and obviously lack basic knowledge of the subject, so I will attempt to clarify one more time. Nobody is saying that wayland is supposed to protect you from evdev/kernel or whatever. What was said is that if you go around wayland ("bypass" if you will or whatever term your prefer) to manipulate/read key inputs, you break wayland's security because it is not capable of protecting your applications from abuse in that case. Nobody faulted wayland for this, but we were just saying that you compromise yourself if you do this.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >we were just saying that you compromise yourself if you do this.
            You don't comprise yourself this way because the GUI applications inside the server can't read inputs from evdev. The whole fricking point of that model is GUI isolation. The key remapper sits BETWEEN wayland and evdev which means the COMPOSITOR STILL HAS TO PASS THOSE INPUTS TO GUIS.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >GUI applications inside the server can't read inputs from evdev
            It absolutely could if it wanted to. The whole hypothetical was about a malicious application. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The whole hypothetical was about a malicious application.
            If the malicious application broke out of the server or was somehow able to target evdev it doesn't matter if the remapper is there, it can just read from evdev directly. The remapper in no way affects that security model at all.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            By bypassing the server, you break wayland's security because the server is no longer capable of protecting you. It's not complicated.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >By bypassing the server, you break wayland's security because the server is no longer capable of protecting you.
            You're not bypassing the server, the inputs are still going from the compositor, to the gui applications, they're not going from the remapper to the gui applications.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            evdev -> remap -> wayland -> gui
            Explain how this bypasses wayland
            You can't

            >By bypassing the server
            You're not bypassing the server. The input events still go through the compositor to the application because remapping is handled below it. In order for any application to receive those input events they still have to be handled by the compositor.

            malicious application remaps keys -> compositor gets bogus/fake keys -> applications receive bogus/fake inputs

            jesus frick why am I still here in this thread

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >malicious application remaps keys -> compositor gets bogus/fake keys -> applications receive bogus/fake inputs
            What the frick is that going to do?
            Why would you remap the keys and not just log them and send them off somewhere?
            What the frick?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            What the frick did I just read

            >installs keylogger
            >BRO WAYLAND DOESNT COVER THIS CASE
            no way

            Is this really the power of the wayland shill army? Again the point for anyone still in this trash heap of a thread is that the compositor cannot protect you in this scenario because the inputs cannot be trust. Hence, broken security.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >why is a malicious application having arbitrary access to kernel-level input device files a bad thing and how does that bypass my userspace application’s security model?
            Do you even hear yourself talk?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Your entire premise relies on you literally, and knowingly, installing a fricking keylogger onto your system and then for that keylogger, for some reason, to remap your keys and then send inputs to the compositor through a virtual device WHICH YOU HAVE TO TELL THE COMPOSITOR TO USE?
            WHAT THE FRICK AM I READING?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What the frick is that going to do?
            could easily send a rm -rf / or some other destructive command to a terminal

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Oh no, so, like don't install a malicious key remapper? Don't run it unprivileged ?Don't allow user applications to control it?
            There's a million ways you can handle securing this, and none of this, not even a single goddamn thing, has _anything_ to do with wayland. This is on a layer below the display server. It says nothing about the display server at all. Literally, not even a single fricking thing. Everything we're talking about exists outside of wayland entirely, except for the fact that wayland may or may not use the virtual device to read inputs from. Which, I mean, shit, you gave it a malicious device?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes, the entire hypothetical was about bypassing wayland. Stop shifting goalposts

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Stop shifting goalposts
            There is no goalpost shifting. You're just fricking wrong. Your entire hypothetical is that I install a malicious application and then _KNOWINGLY_ tell the compositor to use that device to send inputs to programs. This has _nothing_ to do with wayland.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            What the frick did I just read

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            smartest X user

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >installs keylogger
            >BRO WAYLAND DOESNT COVER THIS CASE
            no way

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            evdev -> remap -> wayland -> gui
            Explain how this bypasses wayland
            You can't

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >By bypassing the server
            You're not bypassing the server. The input events still go through the compositor to the application because remapping is handled below it. In order for any application to receive those input events they still have to be handled by the compositor.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Like this is fundamentally what you're saying:
            evdev -> remapper -> wayland -> application
            Now suddenly having the remapper there means that:
            evdev -> remapper -> application
            Like wayland, the compositor, the security layer between evdev, the remapper and the GUI, no longer exists.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You still haven't responded to

            >Imagine having your input remapping reliant on a display server in the first place.
            Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It looks like you tried match the format of my post for a comeback, but couldn't come up with anything that's actually bad.
            Look, the fact is that on X11, someone who uses a niche keyboard layout can just open a terminal and type a single command that works no matter the DE, and the change takes effect immediately. Reverting it is trivial too, just type setxkbmap. On Wayland, there's no consistent command that's available by default. Not all desktop environments even expose all the options, and not all let you apply the options without doing some obscure config editing stuff and then restarting.
            Doesn't matter how many excuses you make, it's obviously a regression. And I just opened your links, they don't even offer a way to load an X keymap and apply named options. They're just layers that pass the keys to your script, letting you do stuff like Caps Lock -> Escape. I'd have to code a whole keyboard layout as a bash script. Why do you keep lying to shill Wayland, you subhuman waste of oxygen?

            . I opened your two links, and neither provide anything remotely comparable to setxkbmap. You didn't even check them, did you?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Oh, and you, no I didn't forget about you.
            Yes, lets shift the goal post from having an independent solution to remap key events into that solution only being able to read xkb maps.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >shift the goal post
            Look, I don't care what moronic argument you make to justify this and what you call the goal post. The plain fact is that things are much worse on Wayland than on X for people who use niche keyboard layouts and want to be able to switch to them on foreign computers in a consistent way. Why can't you acknowledge this simple truth, you fricking worthless moron. You just keep evading. I hope you have a nice day.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You wanted an independent solution and I gave it to you. Now you're adding a totally different qualifier. But you know what? Just for you, I'm going to fork that software and give it the ability to read xkb maps.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Now you're adding a totally different qualifier.
            Because it's not some theoretical thing I made up, it's a real regression I experience and the programs you posted don't address that. I used to be able to walk up to any Linux computer, find the shortcut for the terminal, and type
            >setxkbmap us dvorak ctrl:nocaps
            To set it to Dvorak with Caps Lock as Control. No fiddling with the GUI for 5 minutes, no restarts, just a very simple command. Then I can revert with:
            >setxkbmap
            Wayland breaks this and doesn't provide any alternative. Some compositors don't even expose the ctrl:nocaps option in their GUI for the sake of simplicity. So now I need to type some convoluted compositor-specific command and restart it for the setting to take effect.
            I simply want this regression to go away. If you add the ability to read the keymaps and options included by default in Linux, that probably still won't help much because the program won't be installed by default and will need root. It would be a step in the right direction, but I'd like a set of universal Wayland commands. In fact, I find it ridiculous that there isn't one.
            Another thing is xrandr, similar story. I have some scripts that call xrandr to set up monitors. On X, they work on every DE. I'd like them to keep working on every DE. I would be happy to rewrite to a Wayland equivalent of xrandr, but there isn't one. There's just a mess of different compositor-specific stuff. Another regression.
            If these two regressions were fixed, that would address a lot of my practical complaints with Wayland. I would still think that it's a stupid direction and a colossal waste of time and I would hope that it dies as soon as possible, but at least it would be usable for me in practice.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            And by the way, why do you love Wayland so much anyway? A lot of your defenses don't make sense when taken together, it seems like you're just contradicting every thing I say one by one without much in the way of consistency. Do you genuinely think that fragmenting everything, and making people implement the exact same things over and over again, is a good thing? Do you actually believe that Wayland's "policy over mechanism" is better than X's "mechanism over policy"? I would think that the fact that Wayland still hasn't reached X11 parity after 15 years when younger controversial projects like systemd and pipewire managed to be born and succeed in that time would make you at least reconsider. As would the (absolute) state of the issue tracker, where there's a repeated pattern of Wayland devs arrogantly rejecting features and then implementing them later after years of bikeshedding. Look at how the VSync and fractional scaling debates went. Does it inspire confidence? Really?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            That guy (or multiple people whatever) probably doesn't even use desktop linux and knows next to nothing about any of this works. This is evidenced by the strange arguments that seem no purpose other than to be contrarian, slips revealing astonishing ignorance (like not knowing you can connect to a wayland socket in a tty lmao), etc. I've encountered many wayland shills over the years, but this one is probably the weirdest.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >then implementing them later after years of bikeshedding
            This is the worst part about Wayland and most of the other RHEL garbage shoved down the throats of the Linux desktop.
            The best systems are the ones that can be hacked on and extended and do everything and the kitchen sink. But the corpo projects are all about the project's support model and planned feature set. If Wayland wasn't a steaming pile of horseshit that didn't actually do anything without whatever they call Metacity these days, it would be worth forking and adding all the X extensions back in.
            It's just like xscreensaver versus all the garbage forks KDE and GNOME made. Less features, less ability to change, lacking soul.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >less ability to change,
            Meanwhile even getting something as stupid simple as transparency in a xembed window required taking a picture of the root window and constantly repainting the area underneath the xembed which didn't actually work when the xembed window was over other applications (also called pseudo-transparency).
            X was fricking garbage. It was total and utter shit, it had so many problems, so many bad implementations, and did any of you fat, greasy fricks step up to fix them? Nope.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wayland doesn't support foreign window embedding at all. I have no idea why you picked this as an example to somehow "dunk on X" when it's actually exactly the opposite.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >something as stupid simple as transparency in a xembed window required taking a picture of the root window
            >constantly repainting the area underneath the xembed which didn't actually work when the xembed window was over other applications
            It worked well enough that if you wanted to have a translucent window above your waifu desktop background you could do that.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Is there a technical reason that compositing on xorg can't be done the same way that it is on wayland?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            wayland's solution to embedding problems is to just not support embedding
            it's a common trend

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            List one application you use that uses xembed to function.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            panels with applets

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I didn't ask you for a hypothetical, I asked you for a working practical example of an application you use that uses xembed at this very moment.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            What's the point of the spec if you don't follow it. Go ahead and rewrite the protocol and then implent your own X12 server so its not such a clusterfrick. Enjoy perusing through the 800k lines.

            Maybe in the edge case where xorg is doing compositing on on a fullscreen (i.e. game) window, but otherwise they should perform identically. Neither xorg nor wayland are doing (significant) rendering in the first place.

            >they should perform identically
            Wrong. Wayland on a technical level allows for much lower input latency and window operation latency. Its why the first thing everyone defending X (who has any technical insight) will do is immediately recoil. They'll try to tell you they dont experience any latency, they're lying. If you have an Intel or AMD GPU just try it for yourself. If you're using Nvidia, sorry, you'll have to wait for thr open source drivers for it to be any good, thats just how the cookie crumbles. There's also improvements in ex. Gaming performance over X and its gotten better with recent kernel updates.
            >but what if it's teared
            No, even there too. Its just going to improve as well. X is being abandoned, everyone is leaving it behind.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What's the point of the spec if you don't follow it. Go ahead and rewrite the protocol and then implent your own X12 server so its not such a clusterfrick. Enjoy perusing through the 800k lines.
            I notice the lack of a technical answer.
            >Wayland on a technical level allows for much lower input latency and window operation latency. Its why the first thing everyone defending X (who has any technical insight) will do is immediately recoil. They'll try to tell you they dont experience any latency, they're lying.
            Also not a technical answer. The two most performance and latency relevant processes on an X server, client rendering and vsync, are done near identically to how wayland does them. Respectively, the client bypasses the server via DRI3 to manage render buffers with DRM and global mailbox vsync is provided via TearFree. There are minor implementation differences because more goes through the X server than a wayland compositor, but they are functionally identical and no statistically significant difference in e.g. game performance between the two servers has ever been shown.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The technical answer is of course you can but then you're breaking standards. What's the point of X if everyone just writes their own solutions to work around the specification and resolve long-standing issues that have existed with X for decades.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What's the point of X if everyone just writes their own solutions to work around the specification
            That's quite literally how wayland works though. They just throw the protocols in the standard later and pretend they didn't backpedal on (wrong) core assumptions like every frame being perfect.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >thats how wayland works
            Yeah and thats great. It means I dont have to deal with the 1 single moronic implementation of the protocol. Problems can be resolved and moved past. For me, the user, this was a big win.

            Also at least they actually backpedal and shit actually gets changed. Where are the people, with all their understanding of X, who don't like Wayland? Why are they not making X better? Why aren't they developing X12? Jeeze, maybe because you'd be better off just writing a whole new protocol and an implementation of it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Where are the people, with all their understanding of X, who don't like Wayland? Why are they not making X better? Why aren't they developing X12?
            I don't see any major architectural issue with xorg and it has no significantly lacking features compared to wayland. A couple of people are working on the mode-setting ddx, but I don't see any reason to move on from amdgpu.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >They'll try to tell you they dont experience any latency, they're lying. If you have an Intel or AMD GPU just try it for yourself.
            I've never noticed any latency, only screen-tearing. But after I added this to the Device section of Xorg.conf that went away.
            >Option "TearFree" "on"
            I haven't needed to explicitly do that since like 2019, my later GPUs and X server have neither latency nor tearing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Technically tearfree introduces latency. It's just mailbox vsync. However global vsync on a wayland compositor is the exact same thing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Tearfree didn't do shit on my 1060
            Hell even with picom I would still see Firefox tear out the ass just scrolling down a page. Now is that X's fault? No its Picom's fault. Someone should go and write a better compositor.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I've never noticed any latency
            Neither have I. I've also never seen screen tearing. Seeing the aggressive stance, I assume that there's a lot over-exaggeration paired with Wayland's embellishment.
            Not like the push for it will stop, but this song and dance is nothing new. History has repeated itself plenty of times in quite the short frame already, so what gives? Curious when complete kernel DRM modules will be implemented now.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >neither have i
            You'll notice it once you buy a gpu that doesn't suck and use any wayland compositor. As it is you don't even have s frame of reference to compare the two by.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            For some reason people pretend (or seriously believe) that application level vsync doesn't work on xorg.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >seriously believe
            I've used X for 16 years of my life and have noticed tearing across the entirety of my time using it. The tearing meme exists for a reason, its not just something people fabricated into existence, no matter how hard you try to pretend otherwise. Perhaps the most egregious example of X users today pretending it doesn't exist is when they tell me to disable smooth scrolling in Firefox to fix thr problem.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Tearing literally does not happen on xorg with tearfree enabled. It's the same reason there's no tearing on wayland.
            >when they tell me to disable smooth scrolling in Firefox to fix thr problem
            I don't use smooth scrolling and never have. I don't have screen tearing and I can't remember ever seeing it on a desktop application unless I dragged windows around.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >does not happen with tearfree enabled
            Yeah if it worked at all on either my laptop, my old tower with the 1060 or my current workstation with the rx7600 that would be great. It doesn't, the only thing thst mitigates tearing is picom, and it doesn't actually prevent it from happening, smooth scrolling, moving windows, basically any kind of situation where testing can occur leads to tearing.

            For me, using Sway, Hyprland and Kwin after getting the 7600 made me realize just how much better it is as an experience over X. Everything is smoother, everything is faster. Even my games have better frame timing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Everything in that post is just made up. Take your pills.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You dont even have a frame of reference to go by. And no, its not made up. You can hide your head in the sand and ignore the countless people who tell you otherwise, or you can accept that their experiences are real. The meme exists for a reason.

            >The tearing meme exists for a reason,
            Why did X tear so much anyway to begin with?
            Is it because EDID data is garbage and timings from the monitors are usually wrong or something?

            I have no idea, that may very well be the case. Early drivers were also just really bad. When I first started using Linux as a kid I had an ATi 9600SE paired with a 1.4GHz P4 (SE cards then comically known as Stripped Editions) and the performance was genuinely god awful compared to Windows for both 2D and 3D acceleration (WoW had an experimental OpenGL renderer back then so I dabbled playing that for a bit). There were likely a lot of reasons all compounding on each other.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You dont even have a frame of reference to go by
            I have a 6900xt. Before that I had an rx580 and an rx380. I've used tearfree nearly since it was merged into xf86-video-amdgpu, I used amdgpu when it new and hardware acceleration didn't even work properly, I've used gentoo, void, ubuntu, debian, I've used firefox, chromium, and palemoon, I've used mpv and vlc, I've played native and proton and wine games, I've used dxvk, vkd3d-proton, wined3d, and gallium nine and I've been using linux for well over a decade. I was even an early wayland adopter when weston was a toy you ran in a tty or nested and e-girlwm was the new hotness. I've been using xorg for nearly that entire time and I'm telling you outright that you need medication, because in all of that time I have never once seen screen tearing except when tearfree and all application vsync was turned off. My sole complaint about vsync tearing on xorg is that I was never able to get dxvk to force effective mailbox sync.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            To me it seems like you're just selectively ignoring any kind of circumstance where you saw tearing because I've used X across much wider varieties of hardware configurations and tearing was ever present regardless of the configuration options. In games I never really gave a shit because, prior to buying my current setup of 3 identical 240Hz monitors, I couldn't stand the god awful input delay syncing to 60Hz caused.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Forgot to say that I built my first PC with a fermi housefire (560ti?) and used that on linux until amdgpu was in-kernel.

            I'm not selectively ignoring anything. There is no technical possibility of tearing occuring on an xorg desktop that uses tearfree, where that possibility doesn't also exist on wayland with global vsync, because they function in the exact same way. Xorg can have tearing with just application level vsync, which is why I said
            >I still never had a noticeable screen tearing problem
            but tearfree has been in the amd ddx for nearly a decade now.
            >because I've used X across much wider varieties of hardware configurations and tearing was ever present regardless of the configuration options
            Sure, I'm probably not sensitive to screen tearing in other situations, like browser scrolling. But I don't care, because I don't turn off smooth scrolling and compositing to make things look better. I hate the sluggish feeling of smooth scroll and desktop animations and the dumb look of most compositing effects. Having a transparent terminal window isn't worth the rest of the crap that goes with compositing.
            >3 identical 240Hz monitors
            I was using a pair of 144 hz monitors until recently. The only issue I noticed was the inability of xorg to do variable refresh on either of them. I didn't have any other issues, including when I messed around with running them at different refresh rates. That one did take manual config though, kwin is shit sometimes.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Xorg can have tearing with just application level vsync
            *although it's relatively rare. Saying tearing was universal on xorg is like saying that pulseaudio audio never worked. The issue was bad defaults and bad maintenance.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I've used X across much wider varieties of hardware configurations
            I've used some sort GTX 900 series card -> RX460 -> RX 6800 XT never once encountered tearing or some sort of "xorg problems".
            I honestly don't care about what the current thing pushed is as I can't do nothing to influence it, but the gaslighting is unreal.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You dont even have a frame of reference to go by
            I have a 6900xt. Before that I had an rx580 and an rx380. I've used tearfree nearly since it was merged into xf86-video-amdgpu, I used amdgpu when it new and hardware acceleration didn't even work properly, I've used gentoo, void, ubuntu, debian, I've used firefox, chromium, and palemoon, I've used mpv and vlc, I've played native and proton and wine games, I've used dxvk, vkd3d-proton, wined3d, and gallium nine and I've been using linux for well over a decade. I was even an early wayland adopter when weston was a toy you ran in a tty or nested and e-girlwm was the new hotness. I've been using xorg for nearly that entire time and I'm telling you outright that you need medication, because in all of that time I have never once seen screen tearing except when tearfree and all application vsync was turned off. My sole complaint about vsync tearing on xorg is that I was never able to get dxvk to force effective mailbox sync.

            And yes, obviously for a period of that time tearfree didn't exist in xorg at all or in xf86-video-amdgpu nor did VRR. I still never had a noticeable screen tearing problem so long as application level vsync was on. You are literally making things up.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I still never had a noticeable screen tearing problem so long as application level vsync was on.
            xfwm, the NPAPI flash plugin, and mplayer using xv or sdl or gl outputs would all tear constantly, and always at the same spot for a given resolution and frame rate.
            The curious thing, to me, was that it wouldn't have "had tearing" at all, if I could have magically moved that specific line to the bottom of the monitor instead of the approximate middle.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The tearing meme exists for a reason,
            Why did X tear so much anyway to begin with?
            Is it because EDID data is garbage and timings from the monitors are usually wrong or something?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The tearing meme exists for a reason
            The tearing meme only started being aggressively exaggerated once people started pushing Wayland. Tearing was always possible on X11, but avoiding it has been very easy for years now.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >why do you love Wayland so much anyway?
            1. The compositor I use is very fast, much faster than any window manager or de I've ever used on X, it's actually stupid how much faster it is.
            2. The compositor I use totally stomps picom in performance and provides better features.
            3. The compositor I use has utilities available for it which are faster and better than the X counterparts I used.
            4. If I want to tear games in my compositor, I can do that, which was the only reason I ever had to stick with X (well, there is one edge case where I want to reduce used GPU memory to a minimum and I still use X for that)
            5. Any kind of video media I playback just looks smoother.
            6. It's just better. There is no X WM or DE I have ever used which is anywhere close to being comparable to the environment I have now.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            But why are you arguing about fundamental architectural flaws of Wayland just because a single compositor you use is fast? I would guess that the difference is just the implementation of whatever you used before vs the implementation of whatever you use now, and people being able to write it better the second time around. I use i3 on X11 (uncomposited) and experience zero lag. It reacts instantly.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I use i3 on X11 (uncomposited) and experience zero lag. It reacts instantly.
            That's great, I used i3 on X11 with an RX7600 and it was fricking garbage in comparison to basically any wayland compositor.
            >as an example to somehow "dunk on X"
            Because it shows that X can't implement its own spec consistently. Why the frick are random parts of X just straight up missing alpha channel support? That would never happen in a wayland compositor.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Because it shows that X can't implement its own spec consistently
            transparency isn't part of the X11 spec at all
            that's a feature of compositors

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Oh you are such a dumb c**t you don't even know your own server. Look up the composite extension.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Literally what I was saying.
            The external compositor handles transparency, not the X server

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You dumb frick the visual specifications provide rules for compositing using the extension.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >That would never happen in a wayland compositor.
            yeah because the entire feature set straight up doesn't even exist in wayland. You sound very mindbroken. At least pick something that makes wayland sound good.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >That would never happen in a wayland compositor
            Yes it would.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            GTX 1060 6 GB here. X reacts instantly. Maybe Radeon driver problem?

            >less ability to change,
            Meanwhile even getting something as stupid simple as transparency in a xembed window required taking a picture of the root window and constantly repainting the area underneath the xembed which didn't actually work when the xembed window was over other applications (also called pseudo-transparency).
            X was fricking garbage. It was total and utter shit, it had so many problems, so many bad implementations, and did any of you fat, greasy fricks step up to fix them? Nope.

            Yep, X11 could be improved. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want transparent windows, sounds useless, but if people want it then the support for it should be good. But nobody in this thread is saying that X is perfect. Why on Earth are you acting as if pointing out flaws in X is an argument that Wayland is good? X may be bad, but Wayland is even worse. It's one of the biggest clusterfricks in the history of open source. What I want is an X12, still a central display server, still mechanism over policy, but with all the problems of X11 addressed. Wayland isn't X12 at all. It's one of the biggest clusterfricks in the history of open source. Wayland devs refuse to implement general and powerful mechanisms in the name of security theater. Every little thing has to have its own protocol dedicated to it, and that makes Wayland immediately less hackable and more of a closed system like Windows, against the spirit of Linux software. Not only that, but Wayland devs' contempt for users means that they want to decide things for you instead of providing choice. Many useful features get rejected or stay in bikeshedding hell for years. How long were Wayland devs refusing to add an option to turn off VSync? And that's not to mention the fractional scaling clusterfrick.
            None of that is needed to improve X11. It's stupid and entirely self-inflicted. If X11 is too powerful for containerized applications to be secure, we could make an X12 with a scriptable access control mechanism. Containerized apps would be denied many things by default, but the user could always override things and grant full access to programs he wrote. That's much better than baking strict limitations straight into the protocol.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >X may be bad, but Wayland is even worse.
            In my user experience, Wayland is way better. Granted, I didn't use Wayland for the first decade and longer of its development. We are getting to the point where if you aren't someone that hops between 80 different window managers in a month, feature parity is almost there. Are we lacking things like xembed that should be in the protocol? Absolutely. But Cosmic will very likely change that. My hope is that S76 forks the entire protocol and instead we all just use their implementations instead.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Are we lacking things like xembed that should be in the protocol? Absolutely. But Cosmic will very likely change that.
            oh man, good luck. Foreign window embedding is a "never ever" in terms of wayland's features. Turning off vsync was one of those but the only reason they "fixed" it was because valve basically paid them to do it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Turning off vsync was one of those but the only reason they "fixed" it was because valve basically paid them to do it.
            This. Nothing gets done in "Open Source" unless some fricking megacorp has a financial incentive. Fricking souless.
            Wayland, if it was ever going to be good, would have needed to start in like 2000 around the time when XFree86 was stepping in shit. Then it could have competed with X.Org server on equal footing, as long as compatibility with Motif and xcb was the first objective. But that's alternate history now.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Foreign window embedding is a "never ever" in terms of wayland's features
            S76 is doing it anyway because they want to. The way they're doing things they're probably going to become the face of linux desktop.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If so, it will be a third party protocol and likely be totally broken with subsurfaces (not that I really care much about that).

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It's mostly so they can give applications the ability to embed surfaces into some sort of widgets they use so that probably won't matter. Outside of the system tray I can't really remember a single time where I've even seen an application use embedding on X.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >S76 forks the entire protocol and instead we all just use their implementations instead.

            My preferred outcome would still be Wayland dying and X11 getting replaced by something even more powerful, like Arcan or a modified version of PipeWire that can also act as a display server. Basically, a general multimedia graph engine that can push multimedia from clients to a privileged program (normal compositing), down from the privileged program to clients (screen capture), or even over the network (remote audio / screen sharing). A shared layer of abstraction that lets every compositor be simpler and do more with less, instead of eternally duplicating the efforts of other compositors. Then you could add a scriptable security layer to restrict various operations for programs in containers. There's no need to take away power users' ability to do interesting things in the name of security.

            But honestly, what you're suggesting would be acceptable to me. Basically, replace current Wayland with someone else's fork and corresponding software. Either S76, or some kind of wlroots successor that every single compositor starts using as a base. It would still accomplish some desirable goals:

            1. Disempower current Wayland devs, especially the ones from GNOME or GTK. They have shown total contempt for use cases other than the ones the average normie would have.

            2. Remove the years-of-bikeshedding bottleneck on adding things.

            3. Address the current insane duplication of effort, where people will write the same thing (like keyboard layout or monitor layout handling) over and over again in different compositors. These are basically solved problems, it's better to pool effort into one implementation and focus on the things that actually make the compositors different.

            4. Maybe introduce more general and powerful mechanisms.

            Anyway, I'm too tired to argue further, as you can probably tell from the cut-paste mistake in the previous post. I'm off, see you some other day.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What I want is an X12, still a central display server, still mechanism over policy, but with all the problems of X11 addressed.
            This, except I'm fine with X just staying as it is.
            It works. GPU drivers change a couple times a decade but we've hit the limit for drawing polygons in 3D space and Moore's law is kill. Every time I install Firefox I enable the menu bar, disable CSDs, and put the Home button back next to forward / back / reload.
            The desktop is finished and perfected, like a bicycle or crosscut handsaw. Don't frick with it anymore.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The only downside over the whole cosmic thing is that there's a bit of rust lockin on the server side of things.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Before I upgraded to my RX7600 I used a 1060 6GB, same issue, X just had significant latency and also horrible tearing unless I used picom which made latency ten times worse. I eventually just dealt with the tearing and didn't use a compositor at all. I will never go back to X because of that, it just sucked.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Something something XACE.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            This is a prime example of a LARP post since there is no performance difference between X11 or Wayland.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            X and Wayland have comparable latency. You are misattributing something else to Wayland.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not them but you made me think after reading through the chain:
            >Do you genuinely think that fragmenting everything, and making people implement the exact same things over and over again, is a good thing?
            Only if the old thing fails to provide the means for the implementer. I'd give a point to X11 here insofar that the deficits of X11's design can mostly be worked around with too much or any performance loss.

            >Do you actually believe that Wayland's "policy over mechanism" is better than X's "mechanism over policy"?
            After some searching I don't know where this is spelled out, and I don't recall associating either project with those terms.

            >[...] As would the (absolute) state of the issue tracker, where there's a repeated pattern of Wayland devs arrogantly rejecting features and then implementing them later after years of bikeshedding. Look at how the VSync and fractional scaling debates went.
            No disagreement from me here - and in my experience using wayland on-and-off from the time Sway came out, THAT was a big part in me finding practical roasblocks.
            And there is a valid point that X11 does and still can provide for almost any use-case of Wayland, just in a way

            >Does it inspire confidence? Really?
            Given how well most X11-based applications operate in KDE Wayland and how much the functionality is complete compared to the X11 version with performance improvements, actually yes. I didn't start finding Wayland comfortable for my use cases until around 2020 and still use X11, but the amount of times I have a graphical problem where falling back to X fixes it, or have a program that is harder to use in Xwayland, is almost zero (literally just GIMP's scaling off the top of my head).

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Okay so if you open up a gaping security hole and keylog without using wayland APIs, it's all good. what a bizarre human being. Also I would like to point out that the "GUI applications" part of your definition is silly because there are a ton of cli wayland applications obviously.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >creating a virtual device and then just passing that as if it would be a regular keyboard to wayland
            Imagine having do do all this shit to achieve something that you can do on X11 with a single unprivileged command, installed by default. Imagine defending it too.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Now you're just shifting the goalpost. You wanted a compositor independent way to remap bindings and are now complaining when an answer was provided to you.
            >you can do on X11
            Imagine having your input remapping reliant on a display server in the first place.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, imagine having the thing responsible for handling user input, handle user input.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >responsible for handling user input, handle user input.
            Oh yeah and I suppose X11 just handles input when it's not running too? Fricking moron. The kernel is responsible for handling input, not the display server.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, let's push keyboard layouts into the fricking kernel for no reason at all.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The kernel is responsible for handling input, not the display server.
            Keyboard layouts are best handled in the display server. You have some very bizarre notions about software architecture. Either it has to be in the kernel or it has to be totally fragmented across a dozen implementations. It's moronic.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            All display servers handle input. It's part of their job. Running a privileged daemon to work around deficiencies is not really something to brag about nor the ideal solution, but I guess you have to take what you can get.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Imagine having your input remapping reliant on a display server in the first place.
            Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It looks like you tried match the format of my post for a comeback, but couldn't come up with anything that's actually bad.
            Look, the fact is that on X11, someone who uses a niche keyboard layout can just open a terminal and type a single command that works no matter the DE, and the change takes effect immediately. Reverting it is trivial too, just type setxkbmap. On Wayland, there's no consistent command that's available by default. Not all desktop environments even expose all the options, and not all let you apply the options without doing some obscure config editing stuff and then restarting.
            Doesn't matter how many excuses you make, it's obviously a regression. And I just opened your links, they don't even offer a way to load an X keymap and apply named options. They're just layers that pass the keys to your script, letting you do stuff like Caps Lock -> Escape. I'd have to code a whole keyboard layout as a bash script. Why do you keep lying to shill Wayland, you subhuman waste of oxygen?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Like here you are b***hing about not having some sort of fricking core tool to work with and you're also complaining about working with THE tool for input. Something that is completely independent of any kind of display server whatsoever. You are just an enormous hypocrite.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Here this is literally in 2 seconds of googling evdev remap
            https://gitlab.com/interception/linux/tools
            https://github.com/wez/evremap

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            They may use the same library, but they all have different ways to change the keyboard layout at runtime. There's no universal Wayland equivalent of setxkbmap.

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Easy, because there is no better display server than Wayland. The way it handles fractional scaling alone is straight up alien tech. Wayland uses a cosine multiplexer which draws at a 10x scale in six separate buffers. The buffers are transposed and deteleclined for optimal encabulation, then the frames are processed individually with hard coded elements (e.g. imperceptible micro-fractals, subtitles etc...) superimposed onto them. Finally, each frame is piped through a dynamic rasterization vector (which provides what you smoothbrains call "antialiasing"), and sent to each display in their native resolutions via predictive mipmapping (which scales again, in real time). Wayland is revolutionary technology and it's about 4000 years ahead of its time. There's nothing else quite like it. For those of you who still don't get IT, please examine your lives, and then accept that you will never be as useful and innovative as the Wayland Display Server Protocol.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You had me until encabulation.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Damnit.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          wayland definitely needs a turbo encabulator

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I will devote the rest of my life to cosine multiplexers.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I will devote my life to pepe multiplexers.

        I don't know what hyprland even supports, because it's apparently been excised from wayland.app.

        Hehe, windows go brrr

        There's more animations, I just prefer the sliding.
        It also supports tearing and has a plugin system. There's hy3 if you want manual i3 style tiling.
        https://github.com/hyprland-community/awesome-hyprland
        Kanshi if you prefer xrandr style monitor configuration, grim and slurp for scrot, magnify, color pickers, hyprwinwrap if you want an application as a root window, bunch of great utils. Basically anything I was doing on X I can do in this ecosystem, it's great. Especially AGS, writing my own shell was pretty cool.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          why is that a 15MiB vp8 encode?
          and 25fps?
          did you run ffmpeg on the framebuffer with just entirely default settings or something?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >did you run ffmpeg on the framebuffer with just entirely default settings or something?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            kek
            well here's some pointers;
            use "-r 60" before -i to set the input framerate
            use "-c:v libvpx-vp9" to use vp9 (vp9 may be too slow to record your screen in real time though, i tend to screenrecord with a faster codec first, then encode that after to vp9)
            use a larger gop like "-g 600" to cut down on intraframes, screen recordings benefit a lot from them since the picture is only changing a little at a time most of the time

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Thanks fren I really should man ffmpeg some time.

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Waydroid only works on wayland

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I couldn't lie to you. Stay on X

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I had to swap to Wayland to use an overhead projector, and now I'm too lazy to return to X.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Turret Defragmented or Asynchronous Composition Layer?

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    60fps+ scrolling all the time with no judder or tearing in every app including web browsers. You no longer have to be jealous or embarrassed when you see how smooth a modern Windows or macOS desktop is, even though they have desktop effects like blur and drop shadows. Now you can have that too because Wayland allows Linux to have compositors that aren't shit.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Smooth scrolling has been possible for decades on X11, no idea why people need to lie like this.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        It hasn't. You're either lying to yourself or you have top-1% powerful hardware on a small display and low enough standards to think it's good enough. For example, testufo.com has always refused to work in Linux because it's well-known that windowed X11 apps have dogshit framepacing.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >It hasn't. You're either lying to yourself or you have top-1% powerful hardware on a small display and low enough standards to think it's good enough.
          No I don't. I just happen to have no interest in pushing Wayland.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    sale starts tomorrow!!!!

    K
    D
    E
    SIX POINT OH

    THE BEST LINUX WAYLAND DESKTOP EVER RELEASED IN THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!

    FULL VRR SUPPORT
    FULL HDR SUPPORT*
    FULL FRACTIONAL SCALING SUPPORT*

    >1. has to be manually toggled, only works on AMD gigachad GPUs
    >2. only using QT platform toolkit
    >3. license agreement states that once you use KDE you accept to ridicule and write ebassi hate posts on IQfy

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I tried KDE with Wayland on an Intel iGPU two days ago on Arch. Just a simple computer setup, no games, so I thought why not. When the cursor started to become misaligned with the Firefox window for no obvious reason I switched it over to xorg and the problem went away.

    Wayland fails under the most basic and ideal circumstances. Intel graphics, fresh install, latest everything, no edge case tweaking. It immediately falls onto it's face.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >the cursor started to become misaligned with the Firefox window
      this is a firefox/xwayland issue. Run Firefox in wayland and it just works.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Product ensures eternal perpetual consulting gigs for Collabora and Igalia.

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why? You can have it for free

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Sorry anon but I don't particularly like the idea of running blender, godot, krita or ardour on my smart fridge.

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >ESL responds to everyone to make the most moronic and incoherent post in the thread

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    > Windows just is the better Linux Desktop.
    The only thing Windows is better at is spying on users and feed AI with data
    Enjoy your pajeet botnet OS.

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The only thing it's better for is gaming since it has VRR otherwise I can't tell the difference and xrandr is already easy to use for setting up displays

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's free, anon

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    works great for me

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    it's shit

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Sell me this
    Why? It lives in your head, rent free.

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's ok if all you do is use a browser and play games.

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Sell me this
    No U.
    I still don't get it why my distro switched to it.
    I mean, 'le security' and 'multi-monitor' support is complete horseshit out of context. Never had problem with either of those things on xorg but whatever.
    Sure, at the end of the day people can do whatever they want, but what's with the corpo manager tier bullshitting?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Because if they don't provide some kind of reasoning you wind up with the schizos in this thread. People hate change, no matter how good it is for them.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >People hate change, no matter how good it is for them.
        This is an excuse trotted out every time some absolute morons want to push a dumb idea. If the idea was good, you wouldn't have to resort to it. systemd was started in 2010 and is almost universally adopted, because it's actually good. Wayland was started in 2008 and is still worse than X11 in many areas as I mentioned before, and in some it will probably never be better.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >systemd
          >actually good
          We rewriting history all of a sudden?

          I wont even touch the steaming pile of shit that is the discussion about what are those things systemd actually does "better", but lets focus on actual realities:
          It's big, thus hard to maintain to do any sort of meaningful development one has to clobber some sort of team together which is a luxury for linux community and not the norm. Thus the whole community is at the mercy of redhat which are historically proven to be scum, meddling and fricking with whatever they wish with while growing influence. Not to forget they are owned by a big, 'virtuous' corporation which should put an end to the moronic sentiment that they are somewhat the good guys bringing 'necessary' change.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            NTA but systemd was and is good within the context of init. The antipathy towards it when it was still relatively small and new was caused by lennart poettering existing, the obviously political top-down way that it was forced on distros, causing multiple still active distro forks and the way that red hat poisoned genuine discussion of alternate init systems, you were not allowed to ever discuss systemd's performance or feature set except in comparison to sysvinit.

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It comes with your choice of 5 celebrities as sex slaves

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Thanks, but I'll just keep using X.

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Want a remotely ok experience with Wayland? Kde or Gnome
    Want headache? Anything else
    Xorg is le insecure, and don't you dare to ask for an explanation to why it is insecure

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    it's free

  30. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    They should have put xorg into the kernel and do their gay rewrite behind a stable ABI so no one had to deal with the moronation of multiple compositors reimplementing the same protocols from scratch for wayland, to get back to the functionality they already had with xorg.

  31. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    why would I when arcan exists?

  32. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    xorg works perfectly on my gen7 intel,
    would wayland work comfortable on old hardware with no lags?
    tell truth

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >would wayland work comfortable on old hardware with no lags?
      >tell truth
      Works on my shitty 12 year old laptop just fine.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        "Works"

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Did I fricking stutter

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      wayland is actually faster than xorg, you can look up benchmarks.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        it's not
        it is simpler and in theory supposedly faster, but in fact it isn't.
        you get more FPS on Xorg.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          That goes against my anecdotal experience with AMD and Intel, but I could see it being the opposite in your case. Seems like Nvidia performs consistently better on Xorg while with AMD the performance is usually directly comparable:
          https://www.phoronix.com/review/wayland-nv-amd-2023

          Also inb4
          >AMD
          if I need to buy Nvidia and use their closed drivers to get better performance in Xorg over Wayland, I can very much say it isn't worth it to me.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Maybe in the edge case where xorg is doing compositing on on a fullscreen (i.e. game) window, but otherwise they should perform identically. Neither xorg nor wayland are doing (significant) rendering in the first place.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Only reason it shouldn't work where X did is if your graphics hardware is so old that it does not support DRI in Linux.

  33. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    next generation X

  34. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >pic
    now you see why I'm dirt poor... please, let's pretend I sold you this and you give me a dime, ok?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Based

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      pic should be posted in every Phoronix Wayland shill thread.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      pic should be posted in every Phoronix Wayland shill thread.

      <--- latest version

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >why yes I do have eight different wayland compositors running at the same time for one application
        This chart is great because it shows how truly deranged xtards are.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          delusional gaylander
          obviously it shows how each compositor has to be implemented separately and each app must support incompatibilities between implementations.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No, this tries to imply that the technical process of running an application requires running multiple compositors.
            >each app must support incompatibilities between implementations.
            Oh, really? Can you provide more than one example of an application that needs to do this? Is it any more egregious than just putting in an envar so borders get drawn around the window because the developer completely ignored xdg specs?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            > No, this tries to imply that the technical process of running an application requires running multiple compositors.
            No, it implies that the technical process of developing an application requires supporting multiple compositors.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it implies that the technical process of developing an application requires supporting multiple compositors.
            Really? Because I develop applications. I'd love to see all these examples of applications that have polyfills for different compositors.

  35. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Pay what you want @ https://www.wayland.org/support-wayland/wayland-made/ways-to-give

  36. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    microsoft ploy to hold back linux gui development

  37. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    i don't know maybe just try wayland
    i was using plasma with devuan for a while and it was using wayland never encountered any issues, now i'm using mate with x11 and not encountering any issues. homosexuals won't shut up about wayland; on both sides of the argument

  38. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    its free

  39. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    All this oldgay salt and yet not a single reason why I shouldn't be using Wayland

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Why should anyone stop you from using it? Why would I care? Wayland will be pushed regardless of what anyone says or reasoning behind it which is exactly the point.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The biggest problem with Wayland is the API (https://wayland.app/protocols/wayland).
      It's overly complicated and at the same time lacks standardization of essential functionality.
      Wayland makes developing applications extremely complicated if you don't use proprietary solutions like Qt or infiltrated sabotage projects like GTK.
      As such it is extremely harmful to the FOSS-Desktop ecosystem.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I develop applications using both of those toolkits and don't think about wayland ot x at all

  40. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >x11
    Works.
    >wayland
    Doesn't work.

  41. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Well, nowadays Gnome considers dropping X support entirely and KDE 6 defaults to wayland (apart from the fact that even niche DEs like XFCE slowly start to prepare for Wayland adoption), meaning that allmost everyone wants to go the Wayland route. So while X is not very likely to disappear in next 4-5 years then you should really acknowledge that Wayland is the future and if you dont like that, you will have to switch to rebel distros or copebsd, the same way anti-systemd schizos did.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      > you should really acknowledge that Wayland is the future
      The future for KDE and GNOME, maybe.
      For everybody else, no.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >questioning the unnececary mass adoption of wayland makes one a shizo

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >mass adoption
        Wayland is still used by a relatively small minority only.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Wayland will always be the future.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >nowadays Gnome considers dropping X support entirely
      *in GTK5. Seriously what's with the constant lies?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        That's not a lie, he said considers and they are considering it. You're misconstruing his post and trying to imply he said something entirely different. You're the only person lying right now.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >he
          Sure. Wayland shills fantasize about X11 support getting dropped in literally every thread. They allude to decisions that have never been made, lie about ones that have (i.e. fedora refusing to drop it) and act like X11 support is an on-off button that exists only in their software project of the moment, instead of stretching from mesa to gui toolkits.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yep, there's the blatant lie. No one said that or implied that.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Honestly the lies in these threads are next level.
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/x%20drop%20support/
            Two more weeks though.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If only you knew how to query a fricking database.
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/%22x%20drop%20support%22/

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >"x drop support"
            This is some next level copium. Better make sure you have a lot of CP to watch to get your mind off explicit sync support getting merged to dri3 this week.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >explicit sync support getting merged to dri3 this week.
            That's great news.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            There's no copium there, you need to learn how to query a database so you get proper results instead of returning 450 and having to filter them all manually. I have no doubt people in those threads claim that everyone is going to abandon X.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes sister, the only proper results are none lol. Here is literally the first result, made by one of the red hat esl monkeys that shows up in most of these threads.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Well congratulations, you manually filtered the results and found a post.

            [...]
            Both of these are pretty bad searches. Trying something less gets you far more relevant results.
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/%22drop%20support%22%20%22x%22/

            I was being facetious to point out how moronic the query was. Clearly he didn't get it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            lol the cope. Still got my balls though, so I'm man enough to admit I forgot about quoting the relevant part of the string.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            That's great. So back to your blanket statement. Clearly no one is fantasizing about that in this thread, the only reference to it is about the consideration of support being dropped in GTK 5, everything else is just about defaults.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            When did I say it happened elsewhere? I said this happens every thread, which it does.
            >Wayland shills fantasize about X11 support getting dropped in literally every thread
            A bunch of loons and red hat bots act like you can just switch off X support. At which point they have to be reminded that X support stretches everywhere from the kernel to gui toolkits.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I said this happens every thread
            Yeah no. There are definitely more wayland threads that have popped up than the resulting posts in the query. Naturally you will get defensive people on the internet who say insane things or take words completely out of context like this lunatic

            >nowadays Gnome considers dropping X support entirely
            *in GTK5. Seriously what's with the constant lies?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, it just never happens.
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/%22drop%20support%22%20%22x11%22/
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/%22drop%20support%22%20%22xorg%22/
            Now, to be fair, it's mostly obviously one or two little shill Black folk like you doing this. You can see this by the fact that most results are relatively recent, evidently the start of the spam contract, which would also line up with the unusual number of simultaneously created daily wayland and x based bait threads a couple of months ago which went on for weeks.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >a couple of months ago
            You must be new here.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No lol. The wayland/xorg slapfights aren't anything like what they used to be. But some gays started making bait OPs about X and wayland a while ago. You'd see threads with low effort OPs with a X logo and another with a Wayland logo made at nearly the same time.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >aren't anything like what they used to be
            Every single time there's some event about Wayland or X like some DE switching the default or some distro dev commenting on it there's a significant uptick in threads about it. I know this because I'm a terminally online and mentally ill autist who spends 3 or more hours a day shitposting on this board.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The only thread I saw recently related to actual news was the absolute shit show surrounding the wayland load balancer proxy shipped with firefox. It's not like a lot has been going on outside of the plasma 6 hype cycle, which boils down to somewhat disingenuously saying that "wayland" has HDR and color management because KDE implemented a small part of the upstream draft color management protocol.
            >t. using it since RC1

            >gay eceleb face
            It's just zoomers watching some new shitty lincucks video and then coming here to expel their fecal matter all over the floor.

            I don't think so, there were obviously adversarial threads being made for about two months straight.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >adversarial threads being made for about two months straight.
            Sorry but that's not shills.
            Reality is much dumber.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you can just switch off X support
            Sure, and that's just as ludicrous as saying Wayland will die off without any foundation. The death of any technology is when its users and the developers who cater to them stop supporting it. I for one hope both X and Wayland continue to evolve. I hope X12 is one day a reality too.
            https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            > explicit sync support getting merged to dri3 this week.
            Where is the MR?
            I only see random code cleanups in xserver.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Pretty sure this is the best overview of the work.
            https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/merge_requests/27226
            It'll probably take another year or so to have proper support in a wayland, xorg or xwayland stack.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            wtf I love nvidia now

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >ctrl + f thread
            >drop
            >8 results found
            Only 1 of those results leads to any mention of dropping support, and that's in the post about GNOME considering it.
            https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/05/gtk_5_might_drop_x11/

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If only you knew how to query a fricking database.
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/%22x%20drop%20support%22/

            Both of these are pretty bad searches. Trying something less gets you far more relevant results.
            https://desuarchive.org/g/search/text/%22drop%20support%22%20%22x%22/

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah I know. It was funnier to bully the troon though for expecting people to take something with zero results seriously.

  42. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Do you uhhh... do you need a display server?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      No I have X11

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        OK.. y-you too.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      No I use serial TTYs. GUIs are bloat.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Have a nice day!

  43. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Anyone else notice how the people pushing Wayland dont make threads anymore and now it's just a bunch of Xtards seething over their loss? Every single time.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      What loss? X11 still works better than Wayland despite receiving relatively little development effort lately.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >still works better than wayland
        Unless you composite

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          What makes you think X doesn't allow compositing?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            i think he means compositing on X is worse than on wayland

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah of course the xtard would strawman

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You can't "strawman" someone who never had a point in the first place.

            i think he means compositing on X is worse than on wayland

            What's worse exactly?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What's worse exactly?
            idk ask him, i don't even use a compositor, so in my mind wayland is worse on account of not supporting an uncomposited desktop

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What's worse exactly?
            Well for one the xrender backend is picom is total dogshit with terrible performance and doesn't support methods like blurring. If you want actual compositing you need to use a glx backend has been nothing sort of experimental for years with countless bugs and likewise terrible performance.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      > Xtards seething over their loss
      What loss?
      Wayland is on its way out.
      X11 code is being cleaned up in a major way right now with multiple commits per day.
      At the same time X11 HDR support is in the works in the background.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >wayland is on its way out
        Which is why it has or is becoming the default in every major distribution?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Distributions don't choose the default display server. Desktop environments do.

          And X.org is still the majority. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Firefox-Wayland-X11-Stats

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            This is an article from 2 years ago, when FF was still primarily being run through xwayland in wayland environments. This is not representative of the changes that have occurred over the past 2 years.
            Anyone that matters is moving to Wayland. Saying otherwise is just ignoring reality.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wayland community involvement was zero from the start.
            Now Corporate support is drying up as well after car manufacturers switched to direct kms rendering.
            As soon as everybody notices people will switch back to their X11 branches.
            Wayland is not dying because it was never alive.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wayland is now the default or is going to be the default in every major distribution. Regular people, not autists using wms, are going to use those defaults.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            > Regular people, not autists using wms, are going to use those defaults.
            Regular people are using Windows.
            There is no target market for Wayland. It's destined to fail.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Regular people are using Windows.
            >qualifying this with windows just because even though the context is entirely linux
            Yep, classic xtardery
            >the majority of regular users do not use gnome or kde
            Fantasy land.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Are you living in some weird alternate reality?
            How many "regular users" do you think use Linux at all?
            Linux is for power users, always has been.
            >Wayland is now the default or is going to be the default in every major distribution.
            Been seeing people say that for like 6 years now. Maybe someday.
            However even they do switch they'll all still support a way to use X anyways because otherwise half the programs wont work.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >half the programs wont work
            You mean all the programs written with GTK and qt?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I'm going to continue trying to qualify this in the context of Windows
            You can keep doing that but no one is going to give a shit. In our own ecosystem there are regular users, people that just use DEs and their defaults, along with a few applications, and have little if any understanding of the internals, and power users, people that autistically rice their window managers.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >FF was still primarily being run through xwayland in wayland environments
            The stats in that article include xwayland as a separate category lol. I mean I'm sure the numbers are much different now but at least look at it for two seconds before coping like this.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        > X11 code is being cleaned up in a major way right now with multiple commits per day.
        You mean a dude called Enrico Weigelt is wreaking hawoc in the xserver repo with pointless commits?

  44. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Today I will remind them

  45. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Even the input method stuff is worse than X11 in the 1990s

  46. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Even mpv dev who used to like Wayland admits that the design is crap...

  47. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Sell me this
    No. it's currently garbage. I hope that changes but it doesn't look good.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Oh yeah? What's the functional difference between using Wayland and Xorg?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >What's the functional difference between using Wayland and Xorg?
        do you have a hour? lol. I'm on plasma so, the animations are funky,
        The tiling will not respond when trying to resize firefox, etc also a few apps i have not supported under wayland.
        >Postives
        They fixed the issues with latte, so i'll give wayland points for that cause lattt-dock is deprecated so they could have hand-waved it away. but for me latte is crucial.
        I like i said i hope things change cause i would like to run waydroid.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >the animations are funky
          What does that even mean
          >The tiling will not respond when trying to resize firefox
          Even on X the kwin tiling is dogshit, use a proper tiling wm if this is what you want.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >>the animations are funky
            >What does that even mean
            look up the colloquial term for the word funky. You're on a computer.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm asking you to describe a specific example. "Funky" doesn't mean anything. For all I know the animations could be perfectly intended as "funky".

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Even on X the kwin tiling is dogshit,
            but it just works under x11? kys

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it just works on x11
            Nothing in kde works on any display server

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >The tiling will not respond when trying to resize firefox
          Also I just installed plasma and tried this, it works perfectly fine.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        oh look, it was a bad-faith question

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          And now we have the immense frick up of Plasma on X, which still, astoundingly, was able to tile properly. What the frick happened to my window decorations thoug? Did the compositor just shit itself entirely? Who knows. It's KDE on X. It's bound to be a disaster.

          >no don't ask us about practical use ask us about hypothetical scenarios that exist only in my head
          Xtards everyone.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >KDE does KDE things
            >literally no other DE has this problem
            >must be X's fault!!!1!
            Waytroon logic

  48. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    People who are most vocal about the importance of the Linux desktop sure love forcing pointless upheaval and making the user even shittier.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      s/user/user experience/

  49. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Linux noob here, why couldn't I just run KDE on something like Arcan instead?

  50. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Wayland, as you can see, my window decorations work and firefox is tiled just fine. It resizes just fine too. Looks like anon was full of shit, as xtards usually are.

  51. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    "works on my machine" should be the national anthem of Wayland

  52. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Red Hat fans seem to be sadists because they really love it when shitware gets imposed on people.

  53. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It IS the future, and you WILL switch to it, GOY
    Do NOT research it, uninstall xfce and MATE, and install KDE or GNOME, NOW

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >IT'S DA JOOOOZ

  54. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/98667105
    https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/98667074/
    Here's an example. Made literally within 2 minutes of each other.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >gay eceleb face
      It's just zoomers watching some new shitty lincucks video and then coming here to expel their fecal matter all over the floor.

  55. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The adoption of Wayland can be directly correlated to Hyprland offering unixporn ricers fancy animations, better blurring control and shadows.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I don't know what hyprland even supports, because it's apparently been excised from wayland.app.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Oh and it also has its own desktop portal. So shit like capturing in obs just works. It's basically the only tiling WM worth using on Wayland.

  56. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    i thought this was the same thread from yesterday, but it turns out someone made the exact same thread again
    Black person

  57. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I couldn't have done better than Wayland if my explicit goal was to sabotage the Linux desktop, make sure that the ratio of effort to results is as high as humanly possible, and cause as many pointless API differences between desktop environments as possible so that it's difficult to create a program that works the same way across them.

    1. Say that X11 is terrible, unmaintainable, and everything else that's bad. Excite all the morons who chase the latest shiny.
    2. Instead of doing things the way every other display system does them, make a bunch of experimental technical choices that will turn out idiotic, such as a compositor-driven render loop, client-side decorations, integer UI scales only, an emphasis on logical coordinates over physical pixels.
    3. Choose a philosophy of making every protocol as restrictive as possible and absolutely refusing to provide hackability. Every tiny use-case should need its own protocol.
    4. Make sure that the people in charge of approving the protocols are extremely hostile to anything that won't be used by GTK, or anything that would change their precious initial design to be more flexible.
    5. Sit back and watch obviously bad decisions take a decade to get reversed.
    >server-side decorations: supported by everyone but GNOME
    >fractional UI scales: added after years of rejection, obsoleting a core protocol field
    >disabling VSync: added after years of rejection because Valve pressured them
    >compositor-driven render loop: media apps just work around it

    It boggles my mind that there are people so fricking moronic that they defend this. Wayland is already accumulating unused cruft, like the integer-only buffer scale field, from all the bad decisions they've had to reverse. By the time its features exceed X11, it will have as much annoying historical cruft as X11, but it still won't have X11's hackability that lets power users do whatever they want without needing anyone's approval or having to rewrite and recompile the server.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Far as I'm aware I always used my window manager to position windows because
      well it's supposed to manage windows right

  58. 2 months ago
    Anonymous
    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >they'll be using wayland soon anyway
      I have seen hundred of these kind of posts dating back to like 2013 kek.

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