>The heckin' other program can see what I'm doing!!1

>The heckin' other program can see what I'm doing!!1
Why do wayland shills use this as an argument? If you have rouge programs recording exactly what you are doing, you are already fricked. This Wayland(tm) argument is like parking your car unlocked in a predominantly black neighborhood, but thinking you are safe because you put up a "Pls don't steal my car" sign.

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    x11 is parking in the ghetto with your doors unlocked

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You are god and created the world, if there is crime in a ghetto where you parked your car it is because you allow crime to be there.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Maybe just don't install malware which can bypass any 'security' offered by Wayland(tm)(r) anyway?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Maybe just don't install malware
        You can install regular software that could have vulnerability that could be exploited.

        https://i.imgur.com/QYlzkop.png

        >The heckin' other program can see what I'm doing!!1
        Why do wayland shills use this as an argument? If you have rouge programs recording exactly what you are doing, you are already fricked. This Wayland(tm) argument is like parking your car unlocked in a predominantly black neighborhood, but thinking you are safe because you put up a "Pls don't steal my car" sign.

        Almost ALL wayland compositors have Pipewire screencast support that is both secure and efficient, what is your problem with screen sharing on Wayland? Are you still living in 2019? Even fricking Xwayland apps can use Pipewire with xwayland video bridge.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >You can install regular software that could have vulnerability that could be exploited.
          Oh frick I sure hope there aren't NSA rootkits installed into my CPU

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Can you show me actual audits of the Wayland implementations and analyses of the architecture and protocol from security experts?
          If not, any claim of security is just baseless.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      x11 is parking in a white neighborhood with the doors unlocked and wayland is parking in a black ghetto with your doors locked. Either way, the lock wont matter since they will break the glass.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      x11 is parking in a business park parking garage
      there's a lot of people you don't know, but there was at least a standard to get in

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    you're supposed to run untrusted programs in a sandbox

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Wayland trannies on suicide watch
    https://github.com/Aishou/wayland-keylogger

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You can't grab keys from another app which don't have keylogger library preloaded

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The malicious software can preload it on every app it wants, since it already has user permissions.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >since it already has user permissions.
          Who says it does? Maybe I'm running all my software thorugh flatpak? Maybe malicious software is running through flatpak?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            flatpak gives every app full access to your user directory, so no it won't protect you against at all
            https://flatkill.org/

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >flatpak gives every app full access to your user directory
            It's don't, stop lying

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It does.
            Use SELinux or AppArmor if you want real sandboxing (btw those also protect X applications against keyloggers etc)

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It does.
            No, it doesn't moron. It gives permission based on manifest and it's ONLY give those permissions with the first run meaning that you can safely edit them
            >Use SELinux or AppArmor if you want real sandboxing (btw those also protect X applications against keyloggers etc)
            >Once connection to X server is allowed, SELinux has no further control over X operations.
            https://docs.huihoo.com/selinux/xorg07.pdf

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >https://docs.huihoo.com/selinux/xorg07.pdf
            This just describes how SELinux effectively secures X applications through XACE?

            You can also use SELinux' sandbox -X which does something much simpler: run it in an Xephyr instance.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >>Once connection to X server is allowed, SELinux has no further control over X operations.
            you dont understand what you posted yourself. The X security extension is old, and they propose use of XACE instead which solves these issues. XACE is mentioned in the pdf you posted...

            XACE which is not used...

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            NSA literally implemented XACE because they do (did) use it, with selinux on rhel linux. They added mandatory access control gui to control security for every application.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You just have to enable XSELinux.
            Red Hat disables by default because they prefer to use Xephyr.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >run it in an Xephyr instance
            say goodbye to GPU acceleration, copy+paste, etc
            i'll stay with wayland

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Xephyr has GPU acceleration for a while now.
            There's xclipsync for copy & paste.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >there's [half-baked workaround] for this
            or i could just use wayland

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            ...which uses half-baked workarounds for everything

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            it works great on my machine

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            so does xclipsync on my machine

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >>Once connection to X server is allowed, SELinux has no further control over X operations.
            you dont understand what you posted yourself. The X security extension is old, and they propose use of XACE instead which solves these issues. XACE is mentioned in the pdf you posted...

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            don't fedora, suse, debian etc all have selinux patches by default? Like you have to go out of your way to compile without them. The only really big distro that doesn't do this is Arch although you can just use the aur packages.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            i love using SELinux to secure my system thank you based nsa

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >what's flatpak override --nofilesystem=home

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >what is something no user does and just believes "flatpak is safe" because they advertise it as safe

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            At least it has the feature
            but yeah not everyone will know.
            wish that flatpak was like android apps where they would ask for permission instead of just allowing whatever they wanted

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          you failed the moment you gave it permission

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How about a scheduler that doesn't suck ass which leads to lower latency . How about not reasoning about a fricking esoteric API filled with piles upon piles of bad and stupid decisions like forgetting to add alpha transparency to random parts. Do you know how transparency behind tray icons are handled in kde? Bet you fricking don't.
    X is a steaming pile of bad code, it's slow, it's bloated, it incredibly insecure and requires everyone to write their own fricking extensions for xace just to achieve the same security just writing a wayland compositor provides.

    Even the window managers are better now. Soon it will only be used by morons who know nothing about the subject matter.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >X is a steaming pile of bad code, it's slow, it's bloated, it incredibly insecure and requires everyone to write their own fricking extensions for xace just to achieve the same security just writing a wayland compositor provides.
      >we need to completely reinvent the entire desktop instead of just creating one xace option that everybody can use
      it was never about security, it's a red herring

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >one xace option that everybody can use
        The problem with xace is the same damn problem you have with wayland moron, it's extension based, you'd have to get every single person to agree on one extension set.
        > reinvent the entire desktop
        The desktop didn't get "reinvented", the display server did, it's not like you're writing qt and gtk apps in a whole new fricking paradigm now. Also there's way bigger benefits to wayland outside of isolation.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >>one xace option that everybody can use
          >The problem with xace is the same damn problem you have with wayland moron, it's extension based, you'd have to get every single person to agree on one extension set.
          This is not the X11 way. X11 is mechanism over policy. There is already two XACE injections in x11, selinux and restricting access to prevent users from accessing other users session. Adding an option for wayland-like security and having a X11 startup option for that would be no issue. This would only be an issue in the wayland world which is policy over mechanism

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >The problem with xace is the same damn problem you have with wayland moron, it's extension based, you'd have to get every single person to agree on one extension set.
          Unlike Wayland, there's pretty much only one implementation of X. And that one supports this extension.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I don't. If I were to ever use an argument it would be that screen tearing is non-existent on desktop. Linux desktop finally feels like a competent OS in the market with Wayland. And screen tearing can be disabled on games from what I understand so from my pov it's kind of cool

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >screen tearing can be disabled on games
      That's correct, even sway is going to allow tearing specific screens. Hyprland can tear specific surfaces, kde is on it. Probably, gnome will never do it, but its fricking gnome, who cares.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    It's just a pile of hooks, everyone has to decide how to use them. Wayland unironically solved this problem by just providing isolation as a matter of implementing their spec. All of you anti-wayland tards need to go and actually write a fricking window manager in X and then do it in wayland.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Everybody doesn't have to decide on how to use them. Thats not how x11 is designed. You are looking at wayland through a wayland lense.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >The X Access Control Extension (XACE) is a set of generic "hooks" that can be used by other X extensions to perform access checks.
        Fricking absolute baboon. It's literally just a bunch of hooks, there is no standard in how you use them.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        looking at x11*. I have modified xorg server and wayland compositors so I know how it works

        >The X Access Control Extension (XACE) is a set of generic "hooks" that can be used by other X extensions to perform access checks.
        Fricking absolute baboon. It's literally just a bunch of hooks, there is no standard in how you use them.

        you are being moronic. Yes there is no standard on how to use it, but xorg server already has two implementations and restricting access per user is already used by everybody. You can add another hook in the xorg server that distros can enable, just like how they enable this per user restriction. This already proves that its possible for all distros to use XACE.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          changing random bits of code in dwm or dwl is not writing your own window manager, and yeah, I'm sure wayland was harder for you because you've never worked with a surface properly.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            i didn't even say a window manager, I said xorg server and compositors (mainly wlroots, because it was missing use of hardware planes which is a requirement for embedded devices). I have also written my own xace hook. I have also used x11 professionally on embedded devices

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >wlroots
            wlroots isn't a fricking compositor you muppet

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why would you ever use xace on an embedded system?

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    > You can add another hook in the xorg server that distros can enable
    You have no idea how XACE is used or works at a fundamental level.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      i have literally written my own xace hook, which you haven't. I have also added more xace hooks in the xorg server code

      >wlroots
      wlroots isn't a fricking compositor you muppet

      wlroots is a compositor library that does all of the compositing work, it is the compositor

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >it is the compositor
        No it's not it's a library you develop compositors with you brainlet.
        >does all of the compositing work
        Also goddamn wrong.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          i have modified wlroots and used it in my own wayland compositor, you are arguing semantics. It does the most important work (and the most work) of a wayland compositor.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >and the most work
            It provides the core essentials of a compositor, that's it. It's not going to animate, it's not going to draw shadows, it's not going to blur, it's not going to tell you how to handle layers, or surfaces and how to lay them out, it's not going to give you decorations, it's not going to do fricking 90% of the stuff a compositor does, that's why even wms like hyprland are 100k lines loc. There's so much shit you xtards get wrong it's not even funny.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            those are very small parts of a compositor, the baby bare minimum
            >that's why even wms like hyprland are 100k lines loc
            hyprland is there extreme case, it implements its own protocols etc

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            also when people say wayland compositor, they dont mean the literal compositing, they mean the whole wayland compositor stack, which is way more than just simply compositing layers

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >hyprland is there extreme case, it implements its own protocols etc
            It implements its own custom renderer and extensions. So do most big compositors, mutter, kwin and cosmic, they all have extensions, they all have custom rendering parts, they are all literally 100k+ lines. Even sway is like what, 50k loc? And it's fricking closer to wlroots than any project is. The only compositors that are small are unfinished or designed from the outset to be extremely minimalist.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            we were talking in the context of x11 (server) vs wayland equivalent, and in that context most of the work is done by wlroots, except in cases of custom protocols to extend that (hyprland, which implements extensions that wlroots hasn't implemented yet)

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            To have a modern desktop experience in a compositor that isn't just a dead simple dynamic tiler like dwl or dwm you're going to have to write a lot of fricking code. wlroots is the essentials of what needs to be done, it's the 80k lines you were _going to write anyway_.
            >most of the work is done by wlroots
            No, it's really not. It's like saying the majority of work that goes into a a graphical engine is handled by a graphics API, it's just utterly moronic.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >To have a modern desktop experience
            as I said again, i was comparing x11 server, not desktop to wayland

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No, you said:
            >those are very small parts of a compositor
            You are a fricking moron. Those are literally the biggest god damn parts of a compositor. What sway does is provide the 80k lines you were going to write anyway, the other 200k most compositors need to actually be functional are not in there.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            that was after you derailed the thread from XACE security, but most of that sway work is desktop work, not related to wayland itself

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No, you said:
            >those are very small parts of a compositor
            You are a fricking moron. Those are literally the biggest god damn parts of a compositor. What sway does is provide the 80k lines you were going to write anyway, the other 200k most compositors need to actually be functional are not in there.

            that's like saying obs compositing is billions of lines of code because obs is billions of lines of code, instead of looking at how big the compositing part is, or in this case the wayland specific interaction part is

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Wayland compositors work with surfaces and layers. They literally need to composite just to move shit around. The entire paradigm is vastly different from how X works.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You were the one that responded to me out of some goddamn offense. It's very clear you know shit all about working with either X or any compositing library in a serious way. Also, if you're an embedded developer, why the frick would you praise X? Any wayland compositor will absolutely shit on X when it comes to devices with strict resource limits.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Also, dingus, X doesn't even have a compositor. You need to write your own or use some dogshit like picom with 3 different rendering back ends that are all fricking slow as balls.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How come OBS can record other programs on Wayland?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      because you give it permission
      you get a popup where you can choose a window to share

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Why do I have to use pipewire for that tho

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Because Wayland is a display protocol, not a framebuffer capture protocol. By doing framebuffer capture externally, it becomes independent of the display protocol. The Pipewire approach already works on both X11 and Wayland, and will work on future display protocols without OBS needing to know how they work. Do one thing and do it well.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Pipewire does a million things.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    All you morons miss the point that developers moved from Xorg not because it's insecure but rather because it's old unmaintainable garbage with a pile of hacks on top of it to make it work on modern hardware, security features are just cherry on the top of Wayland. It's not like people in 2008 were like "holy shit did you know that X is insecure? We have to do something about it!".

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Xorg was aggressively modularized years ago, and has a nice, well organized code base.
      It is much more maintainable than the complete fragmented mess that is Wayland.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >old unmaintainable garbage with a pile of hacks
        It's not. The code is maintainable (e.g. some code in the kernel looks way worse).
        The problem is that you can't rake in lucrative consulting gigs maintaining X11.
        Igalia and Collabora need to make money somehow.

        >The code is maintainable
        You're free to maintain it yourself lol. I'll wait for your multi-monitor VRR and HDR merge requests.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          > I'll wait for your multi-monitor VRR and HDR merge requests.
          There is already a patch for proper VRR. For some reason it's not getting merged.
          Me working on HDR will also lead to shit not getting merged.
          Merge requests won't work. A hostile fork might work.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Care to provide a link?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            not him, but I have the commit locally as well. I dont remember exactly where I got it. here is the commit <-. Maybe it can be found from that email. It was in some gitlab repo.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            whats your xorg conf look like for this? i got it to compile and get to desktop but it crashes X when i try to use vrr.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Looks like this.
            https://gitlab.com/pac85/xorg-server/-/commit/e2a4d5cf8965f7fcc8f07d04cb1e95f5e62a0094

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >A hostile fork might work.
            I'm ok with a hostile forkover of X

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Good luck finding any dev competent and insane enough to fulfill your deranged fantasy.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why are you seething? Are you a wayland spy on the board of Xorg maintainers?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >old unmaintainable garbage with a pile of hacks
      It's not. The code is maintainable (e.g. some code in the kernel looks way worse).
      The problem is that you can't rake in lucrative consulting gigs maintaining X11.
      Igalia and Collabora need to make money somehow.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >old unmaintainable garbage with a pile of hacks on top of it
      you just described wayland btw

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Devlopers moved on from xorg because the guys redhat pays to work on xorg as their day job convinced redhat to pay them to do something else instead, nothing more to it.
      Redhat still controlls x11 and won't allow anyone else commit privileges so it continues to languish

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Use flatpak
    >X11 let's isolated app maliciously ass frick me
    >This is ok
    Just stop.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      my flatpak program can run host system commands and the flatpak page doesn't warn about that and it doesn't show it to the user when you run the program either. This is not how it works by default but you can request it from the flatpak team and you as the user has no idea about that

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >and the flatpak page doesn't warn about that and it

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Now before I go jerk off to some absolutely degenerate shit let me ask you Xtards a question

    What would you prefer; some giant, bloated, disgusting abstraction with countless piles of mistakes between you and what you want to do with a surface, or a good library that doesn't force you into a specific paradigm. X is the goddamn electron/react/angular/bootstrap of display servers, in fact, worse, because at least the chromium engine managed to implement alpha channels consistently. This is what you're arguing for, fricking chromium but worse.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >some giant, bloated, disgusting abstraction with countless piles of mistakes between you and what you want to do with a surface
      Gayland will become the exact same thing, I can guarantee you. That's been the software trend ever since Windows 8 came out. Gayland has been the future for over 15 years at this point and it isn't even feature complete Black person.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Guess what moron it's a protocol you can choose to implement whatever the frick you want, it's not like X where you pull the entire god damn thing in.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >is wrong
      >likes wayland
      So far a 100% correlation

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I grew to like wayland because it supports ARGB images and X11 doesn't

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