Why didn't the Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans discover North America?

Why didn't the Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans discover North America? All they had to do was follow the shore and island chains, rather than sail straight through open ocean like Europeans did.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    No Faustian spirit

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      While it's true they would've been able to made the trip without the advanced navigation technology the Europeans had to have to cross the Atlantic, those oceans up north are prone to freezing over or having massive ice chunks floating around for much of the year, making sailing around the Bering Strait unsafe. The coastline along those regions was also very sparsely populated, so there's no places to stop by for supplies, repairs, along with no economic initiative to explore up there. Trade in the far east was centered around central China and to a lesser extent Southeast Asia. People generally don't do things "just because", and no one was going to fund an expedition to sail past a bunch of icy dangerous waters in hopes of finding something that may not even be there, and the conservative east Asian nations at the time definitely wouldn't have.
      China in particular had plenty of land to settle in the west along the silk road, even today China's population is concentrated on the east coast. Why spend a lot of money looking for trade and places to colonize across the ocean when there's a lucrative trade route and lots of empty land on the western edge of your empire? People bring up Zheng He when it comes to Chinese exploration but he only sailed south and west towards already known civilizations and trade routes in the east indies, India, and west Asia. For all intents and purposes, everything east of Japan was just empty ocean and without proper navigational technology and a hail mary in hopes of finding new trades routes after the Muslims controlled the entirety of silk road trade coming to Europe, there was literally no reason to sail out there.

      this more or less

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >While it's true they would've been able to made the trip without the advanced navigation technology the Europeans had to have to cross the Atlantic, those oceans up north are prone to freezing over or having massive ice chunks floating around for much of the year, making sailing around the Bering Strait unsafe. The coastline along those regions was also very sparsely populated, so there's no places to stop by for supplies, repairs, along with no economic initiative to explore up there.

        Also applies to cross-Atlantic exploration.

        >People generally don't do things "just because", and no one was going to fund an expedition to sail past a bunch of icy dangerous waters in hopes of finding something that may not even be there, and the conservative east Asian nations at the time definitely wouldn't have.

        Europeans did do things just because, they wanted to see what was over that hill.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Europeans did do things just because, they wanted to see what was over that hill.
          Not really. What could be considered the "Faustian Spirit" i.e. progress and innovation for its own sake didn't come until the Enlightenment in the 1700s. The exploration started by Iberian navigators in the 1400s was done to seek new trade routes so they didn't have to trade through the Muslims that controlled trade coming in from Asia. Every major European exploration voyage and conquest was rooted in an economic basis.
          If you still think the Faustian Spirit has always been a part of European culture, then you need look no further than the Romans. The western half of the empire existed for 500 years, the eastern half for another 1000 past that, and during that time technology was stagnant. No advancement in metallurgy, engineering, or sailing - everything they built was technology they had copied from others such as the Gauls, Carthaginians, or Greeks, and they actually began to lose the ability to maintain such technology over time. And during the time of the empire, very little attempt was made to expand northwards, nor did anyone sail around the coast of Africa, instead they all expanded, explored, or traded with regions that were already known such as Mesopotamia. The beloved Roman empire is a refutation to the myth of the eternal Faustian spirit.
          The west can't truly be considered Faustian until post-Enlightenment in which the idea of venturing into the unknown just to see what was there became entrenched into the western psyche. That is why trips to the north and south pole never happened until then. Ironically this is also when schizos claim to be the start of the decline of the west even though at this point the west was on its way to dominating nearly the entire world and reaching the height of its culture through artistic movements such as neoclassicism, romanticism, and impressionism.

          Please learn history before posting on this board.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I don't know if this is pasta but if it isn't then it should be. Savage takedown of Spenglertards

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            This isn't supposed to be a takedown of Spengler but rather those who misinterpret Spengler. Spengler himself made the distinction between modern western civilization being Faustian while pre-modern western civilization isn't. The issue is that secondaries who get all their information from memes about Paradox grand strategy games have a gross misinterpretation of his work, and such misinterpretation has permeated almost all non-marxist historical discussion on the web. So there are a bunch of morons who think Faustian means Western for all history even though that clearly hasn't always been the case.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I was under the impression that the Roman republic and even early Empire develioped rather considerably technologically. For example wasn't brass discovered around 0 AD?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Romans made plenty of advances starting from roman concrete, giant concrete domes, barrrl vaults for sewers, cloister vaults, pumps in ships, trafewheel cranes, massive water mill protoindustrial complexes, glass-blowing

            >they didnt sail around africa
            But they did sail from Egypt to India directly at a constant and frequent rate, since they controller egypt they didnt need to sail around the whole continent but sailed from the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Romans made plenty of advances starting from roman concrete, giant concrete domes, barrrl vaults for sewers, cloister vaults, pumps in ships, trafewheel cranes, massive water mill protoindustrial complexes, glass-blowing
            This wasn't because of any "Faustian Spirit."

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Europeans did do things just because, they wanted to see what was over that hill.
          They wanted to buy cool shit from china and india and sell to other europeans to get rich, and they wanted to spread christianity. "Faustian spirit" is a masturbatory fantasy.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            nooooooo it wasn't simply economic forces cutting off their supply of goods from india it was heckin metaphysicinos

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >All they had to do was follow the shore and island chains
    Straight into Siberia and Alaska, which are frozen-over wastelands for half the year. Not exactly ripe land for colonization.
    When Columbus first set foot in the Americas he landed in the topical paradise of the Caribbean, comparatively much more promising.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Not exactly ripe land for colonization.
      Russian Alaska?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        What about it? That land is shit. They pawned it off to the first sucker that would be stupid enough to buy it the instant they got the chance.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Russia gave up all its pacific colonies because it couldn't realistically hold any of them. Today Russia is poorer than Japan despite having 100x more land and a huge historical head start.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Bit of a contentious issue actually. While we aren't sure if chinese or japanese people made it to north america there is undeniable evidence their ships did. Plenty of chinese junks were shipwrecked in the pacific northwest. The haida and tlingit notably salvaged metal from the ships to fashion armor and make blades but that was much later. Picrel is armor made by the tlingit from chinese coins.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      that's the most pathetic thing I've ever heard. They literally shipwrecked in America by accident, and never bothered to make camp there?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Well, we dont know if they even landed there, just that their ships did. In all probability the ships were most likely abandoned before reaching the Americas. However atleast in one case in 1834; 3 japanese sailors were taken as slaves by the makah before being freed by members of the hudson bay company. More than likely if this kind of incident happened before the others were taken as slaves aswell, probably starving on their ships and ill prepared to stop an assault. The haida were quite proficient warriors in their own right.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          it's just a funny reverse of the monkeys on coconut tree flotsam concept. Ships sailed themselves to America but the chinese crews bailed out.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            It is funny seeing it that way. Life has many ways of being funny. Probably not too funny for the sailors tho :p

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            you're ok in my book sir

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Cool Armor

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Their swords were even cooler. You can tell they had no previous tradition of sword making and adapted war paddle designs to metal. I think it is so cool to see what people come up with especially relatively isolated ones.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    What makes you think they didn't?

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Observe the following map of global prevailing winds
    Notice something? Wind near the equator to mid lattitudes tends to bias a westerly direction, because the Earth is round, this would've made it far more difficult for China to reach North America vs Europeans

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous
      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/1ot47ar.jpg

        The Spanish Manilla Galleons made regular trips across the Pacific after they discovered the appropriate latitude for sailing East.
        The Chinese didn't know about Latitude because they believered the Earth was flat until Europeans told them in the 16th/17th centuries.

        Pacific crossing from japan looks pretty feasible now though, wind and current blow you there and take you back to new guinea. Were japs just not curious enough?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The Spanish Manilla Galleons made regular trips across the Pacific after they discovered the appropriate latitude for sailing East.
      The Chinese didn't know about Latitude because they believered the Earth was flat until Europeans told them in the 16th/17th centuries.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Can someone post the original map, without the giant red line and huge text?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Ocean_currents_1943.jpg

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    What the frick is China going to do in North America anyway, it's too far away to exert control

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >What the frick is England going to do in Australia anyway, it's too far away to exert control

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        England took control of Canada and New Zealand first before moving onto Australia, for them it wasn't really all that far, and Britain had by far the greatest navy on Earth at the time

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >New Zealand isn't all that far away from England compared to Australia.
          >Eastern Canada is significantly closer to Australia than England.
          If you had said India, that might make sense, but the Spanish Galleons made a round trip between China and the Americas in about a year, hardly a logistical impossibility to exert control.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >England took control of Canada and New Zealand first before moving onto Australia, for them it wasn't really all that far
          Anon are you moronic? Not only was First fleet sent from Britain, Canada is also further from Australia than China is from america.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    China didn't have any need to expand
    Europe, on the other hand, is notoriously resource-poor and the silk road had been cut off

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Europe, on the other hand, is notoriously resource-poor
      Not necessarily true, Europe has some of the best coal deposits, and the island of Great Britain is rich in several metals such as tin and copper. The subcontinent of Europe supposedly has more oil than the entirety of sub-Saharan Africa as well.
      >and the silk road had been cut off
      That is true. The Silk Road mainly dealt in luxury goods however, like silk, spices, tea, and porcelain. Much of these things were produced in China. Europeans sought out new trade routes for these goods in particular. Raw natural resources didn't matter much until industrialization, and Europe had the necessary coal and iron to kickstart early industrialization. Interestingly enough, China also has a lot of coal and iron, and is really only lacking in oil, so there's not much need for them to expand for natural resources either.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >is notoriously resource-poor

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The initial motive of Europeans setting out to explore the oceans was to have access to spices and tea.
    East asians had used various fermenting methods to preserve food instead of by spices and tea was already indigenous to their lands. They had no similar incentive.
    as for Japanese, Hokkaido was known to be unsuitable to agriculture because of peat. modern day farming of that place was the result of importing soil from other places. They wouldn't believe they could find arable place any further.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >spices were for le preserving rotten le meats
      brainlet

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        doesn't matter whether they demanded spices for food or fashion or toilet or bullets or video games.
        East Asians didn't see those goods as valuable as the europeans did anyway.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >East Asians didn't see those goods as valuable
          moron

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    At least one group of asians did
    Mostly though Japan and China already had difficultly maintaining control over the land they did have. Korea is your best bet but they went full moron isolationist.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >China
    the Chinese with the brief exception of the Zheng He voyages (which went the opposite direction) never cared much about going beyond the sea, and why would they? there were plenty of natural expansion region bordering any chinese polity that occupied any expansionists time and energy
    japan didn't have any true unified government until after the meiji restoration. to the extent anyone wanted to explore it was hokkaido/sakhalin/kurils but no one felt the need to go farther.
    the few times a korean state had expansionist tendencies it would be into manchuria not some random sea expedition

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This thread again?
    >China
    They were arrogant and had everything they needed within their own borders. Plus why colonise when other nations sought them to pay tribute?
    >Japan
    Was a backwater shithole for most of its history. They also had internal conflicts for most of their history
    >Korea
    Irrelevant peninsula that only served as a wienersleeve to Japan and China. They wouldn't be able to expand even if they wanted because they were checked by their neighbouring countries

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Imagine having to make this cope image.
      Now do one of Africa where Madagascar is labelled "UNCIVILIZED BARBARIANS THE AFRICANS DIDN'T NEED TO CONTACT"

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Well yeah, real life isn't an EU4 game. Madagascar was right there but I bet nigs were content just doing whatever they did back then. Same with China, they were more than content receiving tribute and grew complacent. They did expand from that river valley (yellow river? I forgot), conquered the neighbouring savages and exported their culture but that was way back then

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        But Africans had contact with Madagascar? Not sure what are you talking about saar

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >everything they needed within their own borders

      We know a coping chink made this post because the only reason the qing ever made it so big was via constant conquest from the days of Qin and they only stopped because their trillion pest army keeps getting btfo

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        What exactly did chinks lack, materially speaking? Europeans expanded because they wanted in on the Asian trade. China and India were the Asian trade
        >trillion pest army
        Thanks for the chuckle, friend. Reminds me of those million pity monkey videos

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          they wanted more of everything, not just special inaccessible goods. Why is china so satisfied with its lot in life?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Because they had those special inaccessible goods and everyone wanted them and was willing to trade massive amounts of gold and silver or their own special inaccessible goods.
            If India wanted Silk they could trade for an equal value in spices.
            Europe had nothing unique that other regions wanted giving them no leverage in trade negotiations.
            Europe was also as far away from China as it is possible to get within the old world land mass resulting in more middlemen receiving their cut of the profit for the distance they traveled.
            Europe had been hemorrhaging gold and silver into Asia for thousands of years due to the above as well as various monopolies and open hostility with the populations between them and East/Southern Asia

            Put that together along with their technological prowess and Europeans were uniquely incentivized to explore the oceans to discover the fastest possible route to China and India.
            While China had no incentive because everyone was coming to them to trade for their unique resources.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            you're saying everybody was wealthy in China and everybody was poor in Europe? Just kidding, that's ridiculous
            but that would follow the logic of your post in context of my post

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            We're talking about nations here. A country being rich or prominent does not equal every citizen being rich. Brazil is one of the top 10 economies of the world but Brazilians sure as frick aren't rich

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Rulers had wealth enough to be satiated. Supposed large-scale economic imbalances didn't concern them personally, in the sense of making their lives less opulent. Something else motivated exploration, which was largely undertaken by random people with grudging support from governments.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Lol, lmao even. The only example I can think of is the Plymouth colony, which received a patent from the London Virginia Company (same company who founded Jamestown). Exploration and colonisation was sponsored by the government or by wealthy companies, like the East India Company. Columbus himself is the biggest example, he was sponsored by the Spanish crown. Walter Raleigh was backed by Elizabeth I, Jacques Cartier was funded by King Francis I, Samuel de Champlain was supported by the French crown... There are many examples. There's no way a ragtag bunch of scragglers would acquire a vessel, look at the ocean and think "We're making it out of Gloucestershire with this one". Just say that you think chinks are insects and lack the Faustian Spirit, civilisational drive or whatever, it's easier than raising outright incorrect arguments

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            It wasn't because those royal houses were poor and couldn't live without tea. They desired expansion for some reason. They were technological leaders in enough areas that by your logic, chinese rulers SHOULD have wanted to do the same.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >They desired expansion for some reason
            Which reason?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Greed seems a logical answer. My original question was "why [was the Chinese state] so satisfied with its lot in life?" Was it the lack of competition, a natural border thing?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            One of the core tenets of Chinese thought from back then was that the barbarians converged towards the Middle Country and would bask in its civilisatory light. By being the "benevolent father" of East Asia, China would enlighten its tributaries, which came from all corners of the [known] world to subjugate themselves to it. If they wanted something they couldn't have, their tributaries would bring it. And yes, there were natural borders, such as Tibet, Siberia, the Southeast Asian jungles full of tropical diseases, the Turkic steppeBlack folk and unvaluable land, and the fricking Pacific Ocean. Also no real competition, they were undoubtedly the powerhouse of Asia, even when compared to India, which was fragmented

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            One of the core tenets of Chinese thought from back then was that the barbarians converged towards the Middle Country and would bask in its civilisatory light. By being the "benevolent father" of East Asia, China would enlighten its tributaries, which came from all corners of the [known] world to subjugate themselves to it. If they wanted something they couldn't have, their tributaries would bring it. And yes, there were natural borders, such as Tibet, Siberia, the Southeast Asian jungles full of tropical diseases, the Turkic steppeBlack folk and unvaluable land, and the fricking Pacific Ocean. Also no real competition, they were undoubtedly the powerhouse of Asia, even when compared to India, which was fragmented

            Oh, and they grew really arrogant and complacent because of it. The century if humiliation and other bad shit only happened because they underestimated the eternal euro

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Because Europeans had an actual reason to circumnavigate the world ( Ottomans cutting them off ).
    China/Japan already has everything they need anyways so it wouldn't really matter in the end.

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I think one thing these three countries had common which nobody has mentioned yet is Confucianism. It's strongly inwards-oriented, isolationistic, autarkic and anti-mercantile, which doesn't definitely make for a good state ideology for a country interested in colonization

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    China had everything they needed and weren't really interested in exploring the ocean. Japan was in civil war half the time and when they weren't, they were semi isolationist. Korea was often ruled by other powers and had little independence

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Chinamen lack the Faustian spirit of Whites.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Why would they? Euro's only discovered it because only Euro's are so moronic to spend six months at sea thinking it'll be a shortcut to fricking india. Why would a Korean merchant ever look at the endless ocean behind them and attempt to see what's at the other end of it without any indication anything else exists while they already have a well connected trade system across the continent.

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I like the image of a starving europeen on a shit stained kon-tiki raft desperately paddling toward america with his hands, while a pristine advanced chinese ship with one broken mast is abandoned by its crew and gently sails to california on the remaining masts

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      You don't sound like you belong to IQfy at all - have you even seen the ships of Columbus?

      Columbus museum in Canary islands - https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187472-d190898-Reviews-Casa_de_Colon-Las_Palmas_de_Gran_Canaria_Gran_Canaria_Canary_Islands.html
      https://www.hellocanaryislands.com/museums-and-places-of-interest/gran-canaria/casa-de-colon/
      https://www.spain.info/en/places-of-interest/casa-colon-las-palmas-canarias/

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The Japanese went north instead of east in their direction/west in ours.
    The colonization of Hokkaido was their new world conquest equivalent.
    Before going south to conquer Okinawa and going west in their direction/ esst in ours to conquer China/Manchuria.
    The Koreans never wanted colonies beyond the peninsula and surrounding islands.
    The Chinese went west in their direction/east in ours to conquer the Tarim Basis which was their new world conquest equivalent in the han dynasty.
    Beyond that, they conquered the surrounding areas of their area, and went same direction as the Tarim, to conquer Tibet.
    Then they vasalized the other areas and traded with them, like with Zheng He's voyages.
    So basically after Tarim, and Tibet they were content with not conquering.

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Lack of Faustian spirit.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >muh Faustian spirit.
      moron.

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Mid-Pacific Bompf

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