why do depictions of bronze-age armor/weapons always show bronze as goldish, but irl bronze is just brown?

why do depictions of bronze-age armor/weapons always show bronze as goldish, but irl bronze is just brown?

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It’s metal bro. If you polish it it gets shiny

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Bro doesn't polish his shield

      Bro, my bronze is plenty shiny.

      And also depends on the tin to copper ratio.

      They most likely didn't polish their armor like this though. Have you even been to Greece? The soldiers would get blinded by the armor of their fellows in front of them.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        The most likely did, because unpolished metal is a sign of corrosion and corrosion is the first step on your weapon or armor becoming unreliable.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          When I said "like this" I mean they can polish without making it so shiny. Outdoor bronze statues are dull brown and spent time in acidic rain, so.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The soldiers would get blinded by the armor of their fellows in front of them.
        historylet moment

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          1. You've never been to Greece or seen the Mediterranean sun
          2. OP armor shows a reflection index much higher than similar Islamic armor
          3. It definitely fricking would blind troop formations idiot
          4. You're the historylet

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >reflection index much higher than similar Islamic armor
            Schizofrenia

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I accept your concession.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I concede you don't know what you are talking about

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Physicist here; what is a "reflection index"? Never heard of this one. Is it given a common symbol I may recognize?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It's just reflectance but I used language a non-stem board would better understance.

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Bro doesn't polish his shield

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Bro, my bronze is plenty shiny.

    And also depends on the tin to copper ratio.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Forgot my pic

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why weren`t they wearing pants, were they moronic? Doesn`t he see that naked part above his knee? What`s the point of that giant armor if I can just beat there?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      See that giant shield that completely covers his legs?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        The shield covers all of him, why would he wear the rest of armor then?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Stop asking stupid question homosexual. Read.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Because he still needs to move out from behind the shield to attack the enemy dumb c**t.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            no he doesnt. he has to pop out from behind the shield and say peekaboo to make the enemy amused long enough to use his spear and gouge out their eyes

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Because attacks derive from the upper body.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Pants were more of a Germanic tribes person thing.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >bronze is brown

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Looks generally brown to me and it's the patina (oxidized bronze, not bronze in itself) that's green.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >6 rusty blocks
      >6 brown blocks
      Thanks for proving our point.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    actual moron
    Properly polished bronze is so shiny images cannot even begin to show it

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Because most bronze people see is either old as Christ or just shit

      Equipment tier bronze is more gold than gold itself

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This is mat, unpolished but proper

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          thats shiny, not matte.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          It is a bit brown in the image because of the room and lighiting, but usually it is gold brown to gold

          That's brass.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Jesus frick fighting hoplites on a sunny day must have been shinefricked like someone flashing a lazer pointer in your eyes the whole time

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      thats clearly shiny tan and cuprically brown but op was asking why do depictions tend to show it as golden despite most bronze being brown

      i think its the kraft mac and cheese effect. its presented like that because it appeals to american brain.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        It is a bit brown in the image because of the room and lighiting, but usually it is gold brown to gold

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          so did the greeks really polish it a golden color? what proportion of greeks did so? obviously not all could afford to keep their armor shining so. how would we know from the historical record?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If you could afford it you could afford to keep it clean.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            i asked a grade questions, i didnt ask for b grade answers

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If you don't actually know what a hoplite is, you should ask instead of trying this moronic pantomime for morons.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            then answer how the historical record proves they mirror finish or at least chrome finish polished their armor

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I did dumb c**t.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            no source texts, no archaeological proofs, or anything else worthwhile. just Black personish grunts proving you have no historical knowledge.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You don't even know what a hoplite even was dumb c**t.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            no source texts, no archaeological proofs, or anything else worthwhile. just Black personish grunts proving you have no historical knowledge.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You have to imagine that a set of armour was enormously expensive, it would have been a prized possession handed down from fathers to sons. They absolutely would have kept that shit pristine. Did they polish it themselves? Idk, they could have gotten their concubines or slaves to do it.

            You know those guys that literally wash their car everyday? I had a neighbour like that. Washed his pickup truck every. Single. Day.
            People back then kept their shit clean too. Especially when it’s so clearly a status symbol as armour was

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You know those guys that literally wash their car everyday? I had a neighbour like that. Washed his pickup truck every. Single. Day.
            >People back then kept their shit clean too. Especially when it’s so clearly a status symbol as armour was
            much better argument than the moron. thank you. i see your point and with the greeks' zeal theres no doubt they had at least some people who did this for at least aesthetic value.

            >You have to imagine that a set of armour was enormously expensive, it would have been a prized possession handed down from fathers to sons. They absolutely would have kept that shit pristine.
            but a professional patina does the same thing and is more cost effective, so your argument suggests most soldiers didnt. and polish doesnt imply a mirror or even chrome finish. even a smooth oiled finish does the job.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >so your argument suggests most soldiers didnt
            No where did I ever imply that, nor do I think it is relevant *how* they got that shine. I also don't put any stake in the idea that the shininess had a 'tactical advantage' ie, could blind the enemy (although we absolutely have examples in the history of warfare of blinding people intentionally with reflective light.)

            Look, it's simple psychology. The guy next to you has shiny-as-frick armor, he looks great. This makes you look like absolute shit. You better go polish your shit or you're gonna look like a bum. Repeat until all the boys are fresh-to-death and ready to frick. This is even easier to envision in a society such as Ancient Greece, that was so public, so competitive, so honor-based.

            Can I prove all those Greek boys were shiny? No. But I would absolutely flabbergasted if they weren't.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Look, it's simple psychology. The guy next to you has shiny-as-frick armor, he looks great. This makes you look like absolute shit.
            too many faulty assumptions.

            this can work the other way though.

            when people are in a campaign theyre pressed for time. buffing takes hours minimum and potentially days. being in poor condition signals to the enemy things are wrong. and things often did. to keep this obvious sign of weakness minimal, its more likely the greeks settled for a basic smooth slightly glossy finish or patina, which would be a standard easily maintained in most situations.

            then the shiny guy is asking to become a two legged quiver, because the enemy would assume hes important. and otherwise could be considered the overdressed tryhard who reeks of 10 kinds of cologne and has fake diamonds on his fake rolex. the greeks made fun of the vain too.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Slaves dickhead. They had slaves to do the polishing. AGAIN if you were a hoplite you had the money to pay someone to polish your armour for you.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >when people are in a campaign theyre pressed for time. buffing takes hours minimum and potentially days
            The vast majority of time spent during war is spent sitting on your fricking ass doing nothing. In addition, the Greeks only campaigned seasonally, meaning they had the entirety of the year to keep their shit pristine. And again, these people literally owned slaves that followed them around to do their bidding.

            Your case is very weak, that's all. Does not pass the smell test.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >then the shiny guy is asking to become a two legged quiver, because the enemy would assume hes important.
            And yet, important soldiers always distinguished themselves by their appearance. The danger was the point. Only very recently have generals dressed like grunts. Look, read the Iliad, or even Samurai Epics. Any warrior society enormously values appearance. Those heroes in the Iliad, who were nobles and had cash to blow, all had individualized insignias on their shields. Like 'brands' so they could be spotted on the field. That was the point! You wanted to fight someone who was *equally* presitigious. Samurai? Holy shit was their gear ostentatious! Could not have been more theatrical looking; those frickers would walk into the field, declare their pedigree, and demand that someone equally prestigious fight them. In these societies, war is the ULTIMATE performance.

            This is a warrior culture, an HONOR culture. It is absolutely incon-fricking-ceivable that they would have been any other way.

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    from what i've heard, modern bronze has a different composition from ancient bronze, don't know what specifically though

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >‘The general should make it a point to draw up his line of battle resplendent in armour – an easy matter, requiring the command to sharpen swords and to clean helmets and breast-plates. For the advancing companies appear more dangerous by the gleam of weapons, and the terrible sight brings fear and confusion to the hearts of the enemy.’

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >[...]and make them frequently clean and look after their cuirasses[...]. The glitter of arms strikes very great fear in the enemy.
      From vegetius

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >4th century writer is the same thing as ancient greece
        >gleam of weapons (but apparently no gleam of armor) totally means polish your armor to the point the men behind you can get blinded on an ordinary sunny med day

        you have nothing moron anon. leave history to people like me before you hurt yourself trying to think.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          1 it shows that the gleaming of armour was a common idea and didn't blind people (lmao)
          2 did you miss the part that talks about cleaning the cuirass? Right before the gleaming reference ?
          3 arma (translated as arms) means both armour and weaponds in latin
          Also why did you ignore the previous post?

          >‘The general should make it a point to draw up his line of battle resplendent in armour – an easy matter, requiring the command to sharpen swords and to clean helmets and breast-plates. For the advancing companies appear more dangerous by the gleam of weapons, and the terrible sight brings fear and confusion to the hearts of the enemy.’

          Honestly embarassing

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >1
            still no link to ancient greece, stupid. all you can say is some roman commanders believed this.

            >3
            thank you for fetching the latin for me as keikaku. i will trust you that the source text used arma.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >still no link to ancient greece, stupid. all you can say is some roman commanders believed this.
            and gleaming still doesnt imply shiny golden as with ops post

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >still no link to ancient greece, stupid. all you can say is some roman commanders believed this.
            and gleaming still doesnt imply shiny golden as with ops post

            >Still embarassing himself

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >armour not weapons

          Arms means gear in general not just armor you imbecile cumstain lol

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not him, but in English "arms and armour" is a common phrase that indicates that they're different things. In vegetius, he uses "arma," you're right in Latin but wrong in english.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            arms means the two limbs attached to your shoulders doofus

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm not trying to be contrarian but I'm not convinced. Why are the shields here lighter colored but the armor not standing out?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It’s art

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        That's the thing. If it was so common and affordable, why isn't there gold painted pottery of Achilles and other figures? Certainly would fit with the glory seeking you mentioned, yet it's mysteriously absent.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          It was not necessarily common or affordable. The fact is we are talking about BRONZE ARMOR. It is absolutely irrelevant to our discussion to bring up instances of boiled leather or some such thing. By the way, it is just as plausible that the hoplites depicted on those pots are wearing boiled leather. Consider the 'brown vest'. That could be boiled leather; where as the guy stabbing him, with the 'black plate', well that must be metal since we can see the accent lines and bolts. So here we have some association between 'black plate' (bronze armor, most likely) and 'greek skin' (which would absolutely have been 'bronzed' by the sun). So in this situation, at the very least we might conclude that those pots, indeed, depict bronze armor.

          Now, how can we proceed from there to "that armor is not polished." Well you just cannot. We have to consider the limited color pallette available to the potter-painter, as well as personal artistic choices. Myself, I would not 'add' any color to the armor to 'depict shine' because it would never occur to me to do so. The color composition is clearly deliberate, and flag. If he pot shines it will be because it is reflecting a light source itself. And, anyway, we have established that they are probably wearing bronze anyway, and we know that it will reflect the sun because it is metal. And a Greek would know this best of all.

          If I was in bad faith I would have done a Black person joke already. Don't tempt me.
          >What actual armor
          We don't since every example was corroded.

          >We don't since every example was corroded.
          Do you really expect them to look as though they were fresh off the forge or battlefield? We KNOW what fresh Bronze looks like. We KNOW what happens when it is polished. This is not speculation.

          I can see you getting hung up on is mixing up non-bronze wearing soldiers with bronze-wearing soldiers, but I repeat, this is completely irrelevant. The OP image is clearly of a Bronze Age charioteer, so citing an Iron Age, leatherclad soldier does not invalidate the argument that is, at bottom, about 'polished bronze'.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nice dodge. It doesn't even have to be common. It only has to exist a few times for generations to latch onto it, like how women dye their hair blonde, or the Japanese beauty standards are for pointy up turned noses.

            The fact that there aren't gold lead/paint depictions of Achilles suggests that there wasn't an association of golden bronze with elites nor their legendary past. If they did, there would be far more depictions of this in this style than most other subjects for art. Because reddit is attracted to power, like you are--reddit attraction to power is more consistent than even the martial drive for glory. That it's absent is a resounding void.

            So the slightly glossy interpretation is far more likely.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >the Japanese beauty standards
            how Japanese beauty standards

            >gold lead/paint depictions
            gold leaf

            I'm that tired.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >nice dodge
            Are you fricking joking?
            Because you aren’t aware of a golden painted Achilles the whole edifice comes tumbling down? Lmao. I won’t even bother continuing. Believe whatever you want, you aren’t worth the effort.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Reddit
            I knew it. I fricking knew you were here in bad faith. 10/10 troll, you really had me.

            You have nothing, but I'll see if anyone else can muster a response.

            Tell us more about this common and affordable gold paint on classical ceramics mr dickhead, I mean, anon.

            I don't have to. You're supposed to be the expert, but here.

            Greek statues and vases had gold leaf put on them, which chemical analyses of even stripped statues show. Indians put gold all over their statues, and so did much of the classical world. It doesn't really make sense that someone as glorified as Achilles didn't, despite the reddit worship of him, and the obvious association that highly polished bronze has.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            List these common and affordable vases with gold leaf on them.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It takes more gold leaf to cover statues. I'm not doing homework for you for something you implicitly know is true. That's your job, dickhead.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it's implicitly true that gold is common and affordable

            Other anon is right, you're just wasting everyone's time. OK you're right. Green hoplites, a bunch of rich boys representing their city, went around in rusting and decaying armour. Because lol no reason they wanted to make themselves look shit lol lol lol. Get fricked c**t.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            So if there’s no gold Achilles on a pot somewhere then they didn’t polish their bronze armor. Got it. Great logic. You’re so smart. We are all here to learn from you oh great one.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wrong. I support the slightly glossy interpretation, as I've said. You have no evidence for the golden finish interpretation, which hangs on weeb cope.

            >it's implicitly true that gold is common and affordable

            Other anon is right, you're just wasting everyone's time. OK you're right. Green hoplites, a bunch of rich boys representing their city, went around in rusting and decaying armour. Because lol no reason they wanted to make themselves look shit lol lol lol. Get fricked c**t.

            If he's right, neither of you have done a good job proving it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Is gold implicitly common and affordable?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Golden as in highly polished bronze. No one expects armor to be gold plated. I'm being fair here after all.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            We're specifically talking about actual gold dickhead.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            We're specifically talking about actual gold dickhead.

            Oh. That.

            So your excuse is the wealthiest citizens used gold for everything else, but never used it for Achilles for some reason, even though moderns do it nonstop, because they're reddit like you?

            You said "shiny as frick" which is approximately golden, so why the gap?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No, I'm arguing the Greeks DIDN'T use gold leaf on their vases dumb shit.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You're using strong language, but it's making you look weak at this point.

            They did. Most of it was stripped for obvious reasons, but chemical analyses show trace gold leaf. How are you not aware of this?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Post the vases that had gold leaf. I'll wait.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            First you said there weren't any, now you sound unsure. Sounds like you want homework done.

            You still can't answer why there's no golden Achilles, despite Homer's shonen descriptions of him.

            TLDR brass is a better representation of ancient bronze than modern bronze
            picrel, left bronze right brass

            TLDR nothing's been properly argued for on that end, Black person.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            How the frick am I unsure where there are none? The ancient Greeks didn't use gold leaf on vases. Prove me wrong frickface.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            youre probably right, i didn't read the thread
            still true though
            picrel doesnt look like bronze despite being bronze, it looks like brass

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            “Picrel” is a drawing somebody made

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            based on historical writings and archaeology, whats your point? pretty much any historical drawing of a soldier with bronze armor is going to look like brass

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Fair enough

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You think anyone owes you shit when you’re such a nasty fricker, being dishonest and strawmanning like crazy ? Idc where this thread goes because I’m fricking off but no one will take you seriously when you do this shit. You’ve made the board a worse place, congrats I guess

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You seethed and swore a handful of times out of proportion like a woman. It's not looking good for you but I'll take that as a sign I'm on the money.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            No one is amused here except for you. You are screaming into the void, no one is listening to it

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Reddit
            I knew it. I fricking knew you were here in bad faith. 10/10 troll, you really had me.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Tell us more about this common and affordable gold paint on classical ceramics mr dickhead, I mean, anon.

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    At least here they're colored sometimes but that's still far from gleaming golden. When you think about it the vase evidence while not perfect coincides with my thoughts.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      They weren’t black skinned in real life either you moron. Color conventions in painting are not an argument, especially when we know what the actual armour looked like.
      Tbh I’m starting to think you are not here in good faith

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        If I was in bad faith I would have done a Black person joke already. Don't tempt me.
        >What actual armor
        We don't since every example was corroded.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    If you mix lemon and ash and rub it it will get shiny. It’s not that hard.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    TLDR brass is a better representation of ancient bronze than modern bronze
    picrel, left bronze right brass

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    This is a reasonable rendition.

    If Greeks were traveling in foreign lands I doubt they'd want to stand out too much as targets.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    That is basically the color of high lead content bronze. Or gunmetal. Red bronze.

    It was associated with a very strong, lead-rich natural alloy of copper from a mountain chain or two in early antiquity. These sorts of bronzes were considered hardest and were proverbial for their resilience. Later the name for them would be hijacked to denote a legendary material based on older accounts. Orichalcum.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      *red brass

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      PS In my language there's still a distinct name for this kind of metal in context of antiquity. Spiż.

      Pircel, I think these doors are made from it. They're pretty much in line with the overall hue of many depictions.

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