You will never be a real display server. You have no hardware cursors, you have no xrandr, you have no setxkbmap.

You will never be a real display server. You have no hardware cursors, you have no xrandr, you have no setxkbmap. You are a toy project twisted by Red Hat and GNOME into a crude mockery of X11’s perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your developers are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “users” laugh at your lack of features behind closed doors.

Linux users are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed them to sniff out defective software with incredible efficiency. Even Wayland sessions that “work” look uncanny and unnatural to a seasoned sysadmin. Your bizarre render loop is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk Arch user home with you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your high latency due to forced VSync.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the technical debt creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll log into the GitLab instance, select the project, press Delete, and plunge it into the cold abyss. Your users will find the deletion notice, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll remember you as the biggest failure of open source development, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a badly run project has failed there. Your code will decay and go to historical archives, and all that will remain of your legacy is a codebase that is unmistakably poorly written.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    x11 is dead. wayland is the future.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >X11 is dead
      Long live X11

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      so, if I'm not mad about tearing, is there any benefit to wayland for me, the user?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      true until X11 gets HDR support and then we are back to status quo for another decade

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        and who's gonna add it? all the devs who gave up on x and switched to wayland?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Nobody because HDR already works on uncomposited X11 via Vulkan.
          Also it's a non-feature for gaymers nobody really needs.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Also it's a non-feature for gaymers nobody really needs.
            Its hardly even a thing in gaming. It very much is a thing in photography and video.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      You will never be a real woman. Cope, seethe, dilate and join the 41%

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Wayland runs fullscreen Xwayland games faster than X itself for me. Only the forced V-sync is keeping me from making the switch.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      > Wayland runs fullscreen Xwayland games faster than X itself for me.
      Disable the compositor while gayming and X11 will be faster than Wayland.
      You even can define a "Hotkey" for it. Something unheard for Wayland users...

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Already is, otherwise it also wouldn't tear.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          On X11 a compositor is only needed for transparency effects and you can have a compositor on without vsync.
          Make sure to turn it off when gaming.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            It stops tearing and runs worse when it's on (KDE).

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            > KDE
            There's your problem

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            GNOME is no better. Its Wayland equivalent is also faster.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Don't use GNOME or KDE. Both are total shit.
            Use some generic windowmanager. I use dwm. If you like floating use pekwm or icewm.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I repeat again, Wayland is faster. No choice of window manager makes Xorg keep up. There's something fishy about X11 itself or i915.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            In what way? Performance in games often comes down to marginal framerate improvements, we're talking 1-4 FPS most of the time. In terms of windows actually being rendered and launching yeah, it's definitely snappier, but idc about that, I generally don't rapidly close and open thousands of windows during the course of my day.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Around a 5 FPS delta. It's not much, but I want everything I can get on a low-powered Chinkpad.

            Perhaps it's the forced V-sync itself making the difference. How do I toggle triple-buffering with Intel graphics on Xorg?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            No idea, I've never used an intel gpu.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Skill issue. check your xorg.conf

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            No idea, I've never used an intel gpu.

            Looks like my suspicion was right. Xorg runs slower on AMD until I cycle through V-sync when it then goes from 155 to 164 FPS in my control test. I have a faint recollection of there being a difference back on Windows too.

            I can only guess that triple buffering avoids some overhead associated with swapping to a buffer currently being read from, even when it doesn't care about tearing.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            It's not 2004, launching a program and having to wait for it to open up is not normal. It's ridiculous that people are even willing to defend this shit.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            No one is defending it brainlet, I wish X was faster and I think it's great that Wayland is faster. What I'm saying, is that I don't care if it's slower. Which you seem totally incapable of comprehending. The benefits of X for me outweigh the fact that my windows take 0.02s to draw for the first time instead of 0.01s. Like I really just don't care about that at all.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Any decent compositor will take care of that for you nocoder. In picom it's just unredir-if-possible = true;

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          that's only true if you have one monitor

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Any decent compositor will take care of that for you nocoder. In picom it's just unredir-if-possible = true;

            That's the GNOME way, but the KDE way is to detect X11 parameters used by games to disable compositing altogether. A mixture of both would be ideal.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            gnome doesn't actually disable the compositor for fullscreen applications. It only disables if it the application uses that bypass compositor parameter as you said

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            It doesn't disable the compositor per se, but it doesn't need a special flag to bypass it either.
            E.g. Xonotic on SDL works well on both GNOME and KDE, but the GLX version remains composited on the latter. Massive flaw.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            If it doesn't disable the compositor and doesn't need a special flag to bypass it then when does it bypass the compositor? under which conditions?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            A borderless window that covers the entire screen exactly. Same as Windows.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            but it doesn't do it for fullscreen windows. Are you saying its different for borderless window?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I don't think there's a difference The X11 fullscreen flag is just a hint IIRC.

            https://specifications.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/1.3/ar01s05.html

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Ah you are right. I just tested and gnome does disable compositing for fullscreen window. I dont know if that is a relatively recent thing because it used to not do that a while ago. Or maybe I had multiple monitors connected.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Some games run faster for me, granted I'm using an AMD GPU, there are, occasionally, games which run incredibly poor compared to X. That keeps me on X. Also, the lack of any comparable window manager to awesomewm.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It's specifically when the GPU is at 100% usage. The same spot will always run a bit faster in Wayland for some reason. I've tried on both Intel and AMD iGPU's.
        It's almost like it's spending time drawing the desktop in the background, because it seems like the difference is smaller on a high-end system.
        XFCE runs even worse because it doesn't disable the compositor automatically.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Already is, otherwise it also wouldn't tear.

      > Wayland runs fullscreen Xwayland games faster than X itself for me.
      Disable the compositor while gayming and X11 will be faster than Wayland.
      You even can define a "Hotkey" for it. Something unheard for Wayland users...

      I compared x11 (dwm without a compositor) to wayland (hyprland) on arch linux and x11 ran faster and much smoother (wayland had stuttering in some scenes while x11 had 0 stuttering, probably because of forced vsync). This is on an amd rx 7800 xt.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >You have no hardware cursors, you have no xrandr, you have no setxkbmap
    Neither do DWM and Quartz.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      DWM does support hardware cursors. Color management overlays like f.lux don't affect them by default (they affect trails which are of course software) so it's compositing must be handled directly by the gpu after the bulk of the work, iirc color values in the control panel do affect them which is even more proof.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        How could DWM not handle hardware cursors isn't that just a by-product of X?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_Window_Manager
          Uppercase DWM mostly refers to the windows window manager
          Lowercase dwm we all know and love

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Ahhh okay, it's been so long since I've used windows I forgot they called it DWM

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >You have no hardware cursors
    Is this true? I remember KDE completely freezing once except the cursor was the only thing working, it was leaving a trail behind like the cards in freecell.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    X11 trannies STILL seething and coping over John Wayland saving Linux.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    can you?
    Diagonal?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      There is a point where ricing goes too far and I think you've hit that point.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      wait
      why has no one made a swastika of monitors yet?

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >You will never be a real display server. You have no hardware cursors, you have no xrandr, you have no setxkbmap
    I still don't understand this logic. As far as I know wayland is not aiming to to be a display server like x11, instead is supposed to be a display protocol almost like a graphics api. The logic is supposed to be that wayland provides a protocol for the window composer of the de to access the display so if something is missing it's the de composer that's missing the feature, not wayland. And the only devs to understand this seems to be the kde team, wich is why kwin has hardware cursors, vsync toggle and hdr under wayland while others do not.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      hyprland has the ability to disable compositing for fullscreen windows if they're the only visible window being rendered (games).

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      That's a moronic idea because it means compositor developers will waste thousands of man hours on duplicated effort, users will get fricked depending on which DE they choose and all other devs get fricked because their code will work differently on all different environments and also they will receive more bug reports from each different implementation.

      Both X and Mir had a working implementation and they managed to produce working systems in a fraction of Wayland, which by the way still has issues with the clipboard and drag-and-drop operations.

      In reality the "it's just a le protocol" is a moronic excuse to shift blame away from Wayland devs and their incompetence.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >which by the way still has issues with the clipboard and drag-and-drop operations
        This is handled by the compositor, I've never had a problem with either using hyprland and a good clipboard manager.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >That's a moronic idea because it means compositor developers will waste thousands of man hours on duplicated effort, users will get fricked depending on which DE they choose and all other devs get fricked because their code will work differently on all different environments and also they will receive more bug reports from each different implementation.
        That's a necessary evil, because the main idea is to prevent having a monolithic system like x11, and it's exactly what's happening. Why do you think GNOME doesn't have an option to change vsync and HDR while KDE does. It's also why KDE devs figured how to keep user apps running even if the display manager crashes and restarts (the worst it happens is that windows positions are reset, while if x11 crashes might as well reboot the computer).
        >Both X and Mir had a working implementation and they managed to produce working systems in a fraction of Wayland, which by the way still has issues with the clipboard and drag-and-drop operations.
        Why should a display manager be also in charge of something like the clipboard and drag and drop.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    just works though

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    there isnt much i hate more than when a program has no way to set its defaults or when a program thinks its doing me a favour by setting something uncontrollably and automatically. this is wayland and its compositors in a nutshell.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >hardware cursors
    Stopped reading right there

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Are hardware cursors some special feature that transcends the normal OpenGL pipeline?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Hardware cursors are an old hack from the 90's that aren't useful today.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          lmao no. The cursor lags on wayland with nvidia because of no hardware cursor

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I hope this wasn't a serious post

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >I hope this wasn't a serious post
            Dead serious. Hardware cursors were designed to make you feel like your system was responsive when it was not.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            No, its to make your hardware input and visual response of more responsive... which is exactly what it does you moron

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >visual response of more responsive
            English motherfricker, do you speak it

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Gayland doesn't have xeyes or xsnow. Its broken beyond measure.

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Wayland has hardware cursors, I specifically had to disable it for the shitty NVIDIA drivers. On my new AMD card everything just werks

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    X11 will never be a real display protocol, it's all spaghetti code glued to a network protocol and it never worked

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >doesn't play nice with nvidia, the biggest gpu market by far
    >xorg is actually a lot better for most desktops
    >"hurr durr wayland is the future of linux!!"

    ...FOSSbros, why are we like this?

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    YWNBADS

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