Your opinion on the Holy Roman Empire?

All debates aside about the HRE's name being a complete misnomer, I think it has some of the most kino moments in European history.

Beware Cat Shirt $21.68

Rise, Grind, Banana Find Shirt $21.68

Beware Cat Shirt $21.68

  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was kino when it wasn't being a complete non-entity. We got the bad timeline where France centralized more than the Empire did in the Middle Ages.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was kino.
    Somehow it managed to have global ambitions and be decenttalized (read: chill) af, and lasted a millenium.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I think HRE would last longer if they were centralized

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was holy...and it was roman...

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      And a empire!

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Papal State was never in the HRE , what eu4kid larp is this?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Except under "anti"pope Clement III (and some other shorter lived ones)
      t. ck2kid

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    As kino as pagan Rome? No, but definitely up there.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    schizophrenically interesting

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    10-mid 13th century = kino
    Rest is cringe

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Decentralization is a good thing. Don't like your prince, are you being oppressed for being protestant, or are taxes too high? Just move 5 feet in any direction and it's no longer an issue.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >hmm we should take power from the king so we can do whatever the frick we want
      Guess what, it worked terribly and turned Germany from the wealthiest and most powerful kingdom in Europe to an absolute joke

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Germany is the wealthiest and most powerful nation in Europe today famalam.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Modern Germany isn’t decentralised is it now

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It is a federal republic. Technically the German states are constitutional entities with the abillity to seceede and the federal level is unable to reorganize or dissolve them.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That somehow makes them comparable to the medieval HRE?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It is relatively decentralized when compared to other contemporary states, just like the HRE was relatively decentralized when compared to other states of its time.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It is relatively decentralized because it is a federal republic where states (at least on paper) have the right to secede, something which has yet to happened and probably never will? Why not look at things that actually matter, like how power, taxation, spending, institutions and so on are divided between individual states and the federal government?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I mean the right of secession is the most important factor for sovereignty. Also it represents a radical state of emergency (see Carl Schmidt and sovereignty). All the daily stuff like taxes and spending and instituions can be thrown out as soon as secession is possible anyways.
            Also the states control the police and education, thats already quite a lot.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So as a fan of decentralization, you think the economic success of the modern state of Germany is primarily a result of the individual states having a right that they have NEVER exercised? The rights and responsibilities of the federal government don't play that much of a role because technically the states wouldn't have to obey the laws and regulations if they were to secede?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The success of the Federal republic has little to do with government decisions and more with an economic hands-off approach until the 70s. The cool thing about federalism is that it sometimes stands in the way of lawmaking and if the states have an ultima ratio it requires even more work for lawmaking (which is good).

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >The success of the Federal republic has little to do with government decisions
            So your original post

            Germany is the wealthiest and most powerful nation in Europe today famalam.

            where you implied that Germany is the wealthiest nation in modern day Europe because of decentralization is completely irrelevant?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Not my post but let me explain the logic again.
            Federalism->harder to pass laws->less bad laws->profit

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That means there are also fewer good laws and you lose out of other potential benefits of a centralized state.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >potential benefits of a centralized state
            Such as?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Standardization, reduced costs, ability to mobilize more resources

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Let's take the easy comparison for Germany: France
            >Standardization
            In France they needed a government institution in order to standardize the language, in Germany that just happened naturally
            >reduced costs
            Centralization of power is NOT cheap
            >mobilisation of more resources
            But for what cause? Is it good to go all in like Napoleon has done? Germany in the 30s was another such catastrophy.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >In France they needed a government institution in order to standardize the language, in Germany that just happened naturally
            Why does this mean standardization is bad across the board? A German dictionary became really popular without being directly commissioned by the state and therefore there should be no nationwide agreement on how well a citizen should be able to read, write and do mathematics when they graduate school?
            >Centralization of power is NOT cheap
            It is cheaper and more efficient if states and municipalities don't have to reinvent the wheel or unnecessarily duplicate command chains when a single, larger one would have sufficed.
            >But for what cause? Is it good to go all in like Napoleon has done? Germany in the 30s was another such catastrophy.
            Funding large infrastructure projects that individual states wouldn't be able to shoulder on their own, for example.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The German language standardisation is beautiful because it came naturally without anyone being forced by the government. If things standardize spontaneously, then it is not a question of force but of decentral power.

            On public schooling:
            This was only introduced and made mandatory once mass conscription has become required by the technological development. Right now, with conscription not being a thing in most of the western world, there is no standard to be fulfilled by everybody.
            >command chains
            Command chains for what? The current burocratic apperatus of the western world is so incfeadibly bloated that if anything we have an overabundance of command chains filled with burocratic busy buddies.
            >Infrastructure projects
            This really is an issue. However the way England has built up its infrastructure leading to the kickstart of the industrial revolution has been in a much decentralized fashion with minimal state funding and performed by land owners and local elites using their own money instead of national "elites" using taxpayer money. Perhaps cooperation and initiative would be a better way to take care of the infrastructure than excessive government burocracy.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >This was only introduced and made mandatory once mass conscription has become required by the technological development. Right now, with conscription not being a thing in most of the western world, there is no standard to be fulfilled by everybody.
            So because there's no mass conscription we shouldn't have a standardized schooling system? A Frankfurter who moves to Lübeck should just be dumbfounded by the concept of algebra because his state or municipality didn't think it was important?
            >Command chains for what? The current burocratic apperatus of the western world is so incfeadibly bloated that if anything we have an overabundance of command chains filled with burocratic busy buddies.
            The various institutions a country needs to function, like courts, police or education. If you think there are too many command chains wouldn't you be in favor of thinning them out instead of creating more?
            >This really is an issue. However the way England has built up its infrastructure leading to the kickstart of the industrial revolution has been in a much decentralized fashion with minimal state funding and performed by land owners and local elites using their own money instead of national "elites" using taxpayer money. Perhaps cooperation and initiative would be a better way to take care of the infrastructure than excessive government burocracy.
            The way England structured their infrastructure has more to do with the fact that they were on an island protected by the world's most powerful navy and therefore had the leisure of not designing railroad networks around military use, but this is a historical example that doesn't really have anything to do with the situation in modern nations. A strong government is also good for cooperation because not only do they have a responsibility as a judicial mediator and ruler in conflicts they can also facilitate trade and agreements by acting as guarantors where a lot of risk is involved.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >So because there's no mass conscription we shouldn't have a standardized schooling system? A Frankfurter who moves to Lübeck should just be dumbfounded by the concept of algebra because his state or municipality didn't think it was important?
            This might already happen to a lesser extend nowadays if you are moving within Germany. The competition between the states for the best education system is great, because otherwise the god-awful Berlin system would be national standard.

            A flat hierarchy has shorter command chains (a priori). If Germany would cut its Federal police force today, it would get rid of its entire command chain and if a German state would declare independence the whole federal level would just drop out of the hierarchy with the state state level becoming the highest.
            Considering a unitary state let's talk about it like this: an extreme sugfestion would be that the communes all are becoming independent. Every commune could be lead by a major and the city council any other institution of the former government could be eliminated. And not only on administrative and political domains, but also for social welfare, police, courts etc. You say the state shall mediate in conflicts. When the power is decentralized there is barely any mediation required due to the flat hierarchies. If different communes (as in towns cities, no commie crap) are autonomous, there is no judge required over them.
            >On England
            With nuclear weapons we are all England now. There will no conventional attack on any nuclear power at least. However the atomic age has been an era where power has become more centralized than ever (due to communications I'd assume). A strong government is NOT good for communication, because it always acts out of self interest and works with money that it did not earn. Taxation takes money from the citizen and makes it impossible for the citizen to perform any initiative action with his tax money.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            *A strong government is NOT good for cooperation

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >just like the HRE was relatively decentralized
            10-11th century germany was the most centralized kingdom in europe

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They had some monarchs who attempted to centralize the state but the general trend was princes gaining more privileges over time.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah I re-read the post and he said medieval. I was looking at OP picture and was thinking about early modern Germany.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Perhaps it's not actually be a misnomer after all, maybe those historical accounts of Nordic Romans might have had some truth to them after all by way of northern Italy's native inhabitants the Ligurians assuming this account is true. If this is the case, then the HRE were indeed the rightful heirs of the Roman empire.
    >At the Battle of Aquae Sextiae the Liguri auxiliaries proved to be decisive in defeating the Kimbroi-Teutones: it is from the account of this battle that the tale of the Liguri referring to themselves as Ambrones originates, after they apparently shouted it in response to the same word being shouted by the opposing Ambrones tribe (these Ambrones were originally from northern Europe and are traditionally assumed to have been from Denmark).

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Imperial immediacy was the coolest shit ever

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Habsburgs.... LOST

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      no i think they won considering france didn't even have a king when the habsburgs fell
      >muh spain
      wow inbred sloppy seconds, very nice

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Kingdom come 2 when? When will those Czechian fricks get to work on it?

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It had an interesting structure if nothing else. Countries these days dont have the balls to let their sub-states have different forms of governments. Had the american founding fathers taken inspiration from the HRE instead of the lame roman republic they could have had stuff like the theocracy of Utah, the city state of new york, couple dukes here and there, etc etc. Would have been kino

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >they could have had stuff like the theocracy of Utah
      damn bro you just gave the best argument against decentralization

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *