Am I wrong to say that Catholics appear to worship a goddess? I'm not even necessarily making any judgments about it either, that's just how it looks.
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Am I wrong to say that Catholics appear to worship a goddess?
We literally have 4000 years of church history, Tradition, doctors in theology but some anime watching random blud will refite everything.
That doesn't answer my question.
>4000 years of church history
>Christ is barely 2000 years old
>4000 years of church history
The children of God are older even than that and have been upon the earth since the fall for theirs is the salvation from the blood of God and theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven established upon the earth.
Catholic is synonymous with Christian and Christians by definition do not engage in idolatry. But plenty of nominal Roman-Catholics do worship Mary, yes. However she was still the greatest Saint to ever life.
Catholocism denied itself to include everyone, and by reaching out its hand to seize the word it made its own doom inevitable. The practice of juice and crackers, as well as having Mary and saints to intercede for you are just left over remnants of a previous version of the theology which was layered onto the original to make it more diverse and inclusive until later when the reason for their inclusion was dropped and the church stabbed out its own eyes.
Communion is supposed to be reenactment of the Last Supper. "Do this in remembrance of me," and all that. Furthermore, it seems to be referenced in 1 Corinthians:
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
>Am I wrong to say that Catholics appear to worship a goddess?
YES.
No you’re not wrong.
NO
Even for Catholicism, this shit is way too exaggerated... I don't think it's coherent.
>THIS RANDOM MISTRANSLATED PRAYER IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE PROVES THAT CATHOLICS WORSHIP GODDESS MARY!
ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN, HOW IMBECILIC ARE YOU?
How dare you insult a prayer of St. Alphonsus de Ligouri by calling it random.
Here’s another one.
>I hail thee, O Queen of heaven and earth, to whose empire everything is subject which is under God. (...) I salute thee, O sure refuge of sinners, whose mercy fails to no one. Hear the desires which I have of the Divine Wisdom; and for that end receive the vows and offerings which my lowness presents to thee. In the presence of all the heavenly court I choose thee this day for my Mother and Mis tress. I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both in interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present, and future; leaving to you the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure, to the greatest glory of Grod, in time and in eternity"
De Montfort, Louis Marie, A Treatise on The True Devotion to The Blessed Virgin", translated by Faber, Frederick, D.D., second edition, London, 1864, p. 191-192,
With Papal approval too.
>Am I wrong to say that Catholics appear to worship a goddess?
Yes.
Are you wrong to say “Catholics appear to worship a women?”
No.
that is how it looks to many outsiders. It’s not true.
are tell me why it is not.
I want to be Catholic, but that sometimes stops me.
I'm too patriarchal to prostrate myself to women, understand me? with all the respect that Mary, immaculate deserves.
or even the other important Catholic women.
>I'm too patriarchal to prostrate myself to women, understand me?
Stop being so "patriarchal", then. If you cannot show reverence to the Mother of God, you have no place in the Church.
It doesn't stop being "so patriarchal". Relativism is for worms, in any case if that is the Catholics' answer, fine. It seems like you're not welcome in an institution with people like that.
thanks
You won't find any piece of Catholic literature commanding Catholics to worship Mary, meaning it is a figment of your own making. Also, there's a very scriptural precedent for Her exalted status:
>The great pre-eminence of the king’s mother may seem odd from our modern Western perspective, in which we think of a queen as being the wife of a king. However, recall that most ancient Near-Eastern kings practiced polygamy. King Solomon had seven hundred wives (1 Kgs. 11:3)—imagine the chaos in the royal court if all seven hundred were awarded the queenship! But since each king had only one mother, one can see the practical wisdom in bestowing the queenship upon her.
>Right away, Matthew shows explicitly how the infant Jesus is the “Emmanuel” child as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 (Matt. 1:23). As we saw above, this prophecy links the royal messianic child with his queen mother. Further, Matthew singles out the intimate relationship between the mother and her royal son by using the phrase “the child and his mother” five times in the first two chapters, recalling the close association between queen mother and royal son as described in the Books of Kings. Just as the queen mother was constantly mentioned alongside the Judean kings in 1 and 2 Kings, so Mary is frequently mentioned alongside her royal son, Jesus, in Matthew’s infancy narrative (Matt. 1:18; 2:11, 13, 14, 20, 21).
>Mary’s royal office is made even more explicit in Luke’s account of the Visitation. Elizabeth greets Mary with the title “the mother of my Lord” (Luke 1:43). This title is charged with great queenly significance. In the royal court language of the ancient NearEast, the title “Mother of my Lord” was used to address the queen mother of the reigning king (who himself was addressed as “my Lord”; cf., 2 Sam. 24:21). Thus with this title Elizabeth is recognizing the great dignity of Mary’s role as the royal mother of the king, Jesus.
>Finally, Mary’s queenship can be seen in the great vision described in Revelation 12: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery” (Rev. 12:1–2). Who is this newborn child? He is described as the messianic king exercising his dominion. In verse 5, the author of Revelation chose the messianic Psalm 2 to describe how this child will “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev. 12:5, Ps. 2:9). This royal son is taken up to heaven to sit on a throne (Rev. 12:5), and he ushers in the kingdom of God by defeating the devil: “Now the kingdom of our God has come, for the accuser has been throne down” (12:10). Certainly, this newborn child is the royal Messiah, King Jesus.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-marys-queenship-biblical
>meaning it is a figment of your own making.
again, you all putting words in my mouth.
Anyway, I thank you immensely for the comment and the lack of arrogance like others above and for the sources, but unfortunately I won't be able to read it now, I'll be working in 14 minutes. But I'll read it, thanks.
a summary of yours would be?
Sorry, many online Catholics develop PTSD from dealing with highly stubborn Protestants who insist on seeing anything related to Catholicism through a lens of paranoid-schizo scrupulosity. But some of it like in this thread is just a lack of patience and charity.
To summarize, the Queen of any OT King was his mother, not any wife, and she was as a result the most powerful woman in the kingdom, the same title is thus given to Christ the King's own Mother Mary.
>But some of it like in this thread is just a lack of patience and charity.
Thanks again for the excerpt, but believe me, I'm not a "poor bastard... I understand Catholicism enough to understand that, for example, the one who preserved and basically "recreated" Western civilization was the church. At the end of the day, the various evangelical churches and even pagans lose out in relation to historical content.
and about your summary, this "most powerful woman", implies social and governmental influence? or is it basically a title? I think I thought it was weird
I see and that's good to hear. God bless you on your walk! You will love the Church, no better place to be!
>this "most powerful woman", implies social and governmental influence?
Yes, she sat beside the King and obviously could influence him, being his main consultant.
>The queen mother in Israel had a powerful influence in the kingdom. This power and authority flows from her status as Gebirah (queen mother) and not from her as a person. In Israel the queen mother preceded her son in existence, sometimes she would rule in his stead (Cf. 2 Kings 10:13: "We are kinsmen of Ahaziah," they replied. "We are going down to visit the princes and the family of the queen mother" and at times also abuse her authority. (Cf. 2 Jeremiah 13:18: "Say to the king and to the queen mother: come down from your throne.")
https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/q/queen-mother-in-old-testament.php
my beloved father.
With this comment, I think I'm going to leave Christianity for good, it's not a Catholic thing, it's a Christian thing (this proves once and for all the matrilineality of the Hebrew peoples of the desert)
maybe Allah will help me, this made me leave this thread
Que cosa mas rara =/
Well, you should at least pray to God to help you with your resistance. God bless you!
Also, do note the practice had a perfectly logical reason:
>However, recall that most ancient Near-Eastern kings practiced polygamy. King Solomon had seven hundred wives (1 Kgs. 11:3)—imagine the chaos in the royal court if all seven hundred were awarded the queenship! But since each king had only one mother, one can see the practical wisdom in bestowing the queenship upon her.
Nah
Actually, Puedo ver el error en esta misma y "sabiduría" decisión.
> Puedo ver el error en esta misma y "sabiduría" decisión.
You're not a native Spanish speaker, are you?
Yo can't hahaha
I've been Catholic since I was 5 years old (Spain is Catholic)
I've always been attracted to Muslim and especially Indo-European aesthetics, exclusively male and patrifocal societies even among their cousins, I give up, but feel happy! you gave me light, my brother.
I noticed that Catholicism made me elevate my view of motherhood and my mother in the same way.
Allah or sky father?? no lo sé
Do you have some sort of mental condition?
stop writing with two languages at the same time comrade Iberian, but you are not necessarily wrong, I understood perfectly what you said, and I recommend reading medieval chivalry, BUT FROM ROMANTIC SOURCES, this:
and that:
everything will be clearer lol
Christianity was one of the only religions in the world where it has always given female relevance, even in governmental matters, but regarding the IE, the Celts were as queer with their mothers as these Hebrews, but the first societies were literally patriarchal, if you are going to become pagan, Stay away from anything that larp will hurt you. Islam?? He's a pagan but I think that's what you're looking for, at least there the mother is seen as a mother and not as a second male voice
always.
>Christianity was one of the only religions in the world where it has always given female relevance
Yeah but since he's a chud he sees that as a negative. If he's flirting with Islam, he's in for a rude awakening when he finds out how much Muslims elevate Aisha.
No kidding now, who knows? I like my beautiful Catholicism, but I would like al-andalus to at least influence motherhood, but Islam not as kino as it seems, I read half the Quran and the historical contradictions are very harsh and some seem to be written by a 13 year old girl American. are you Muslim? If I'm willing to convert, would you answer some questions? About which mosques are good and how can I see this? Do you have a "Eucharist"? Are there "Islamic doctors" like in la santa católica church?
>like in la santa católica church
the frick?
calm down! haha
You seem nervous and even though I'm not fluent, I notice grammatical errors in your comments in Latin languages. (the real ones with 22% steppe ancestry ok? and you seem to mix Spanish with Portuguese and English?)
We can discuss this on discord, what do you think? I can answer your questions and recommend some sources.
why not? I'm not going to college tomorrow lol.
We can debate and after that, I will reflect for 3 months and see if I will convert or not.
By the way, I think this song is kino:
?si=2hIzRjY7a23f6obP
what is your nick?
Did you see the link? I deleted it shortly after
Yep
>Gebirah.
Gebirah occurs 6 times in Scripture. 4 of them: wife of Pharaoh (1 Kg 11:19); grandmother of Asa (1 Kg 15:13, 1 Ch 15:16); Jezebel, mother of a non-Davidic king (2 Kg 10:13). Only twice does the term "Gebirah" refer to the king’s mother of the Davidic line (Jer 13:18, 29:2). So obviously, "Gebirah" is not a special title for the mother of a Davidic king. 66% of the time in Scripture it refers to someone who is not the mother of a Davidic King.
>Queen mother
A claim is that The role of “queen mother” is evident based on the political activities of powerful women in the royal court. There are six examples. Jezebel, Athaliah, Bathsheba, Maachah, Hamutal, Nehushta. Let us examine those six powerful women. We dismiss Jezebel (1 Kg 16:31, 2 Kg 10:13) outright because Ahab was not Davidic. Athaliah (2 Kg 8:26) is also dismissed because her political power manifests only after her son's reign (2 Kg 11:1-3). Neither can prefigure Mary's "reign" with Christ over the House of David. The remaining four are dismissed because they have one thing in common: each was instrumental in placing on the throne someone who was not technically next in line. Bathsheba’s son, Solomon, was not next in line (1 Chr 3), nor was Maacah’s son, Abijah (2 Chr 11:18-23). Hamutal's son Jehoahaz was not the next in line for the throne (2 Kg 23:31,36), nor was Nehushta’s son, Jehoiachin (2 Kg 24:8-18, 2 Chr 36:9-11). None of these can prefigure Mary, whose Son was certainly next in line: "Behold, thy King cometh unto thee" (Mt 21:5). So, mothers are not always listed with the King. When Gebirah is used, 66% of the time it does not refer to the mother of a Davidic King. Of 6 powerful women in the court, 1 wasn't Davidic, 1 wasn't powerful during her son's reign, & 4 installed kings who weren't next in line. And to sum it up: “These circumstances lead us to conclude that, as a rule, the gebira or queen mother had no official political status in the kingdom .... .” (The Status and Right of the Gĕbîrâ, by Zafrira Ben-Barak). Sorry. There's just nothing there.
Very patriarchal
>and she was as a result the most powerful woman in the kingdom
Like that one;
When will Romans learn obtuse typology is not convincing.
I was being slightly cheeky when I said that. Evangelical Catholic is a name confessional Lutherans will call themselves sometimes. And if you don’t know about them or their confession. Their confession is the Book of Concord.
Since you asked for a smaller text, there is in the BoC the Augsburg confession or the smalcald articles.
I am open to all sources, thank you my good man for the sources and arguments.
Well, to everyone reading, including the argumentative illiterate, I'm off to work... thank you for reading my comments and thank you all for the sources!
God bless you
goes and doesn't come back, apostate boy
Yikes! Very intolerant of you.
>tell me why it is not.
Why you could say Goddess?
There isn’t really anything to suggest Mary is a God. Unless you think having a holy immediately indicates divinity which would put you in an awkward position with groups like Lutherans.
Why it’s not true we worship Mary?
Because he isn’t God. She’s very Holy and we pray to her, but she is a creature just like us.
>I want to be Catholic, but that sometimes stops me.
As a Catholic I don’t understand that.
>I'm too patriarchal to prostrate myself to women, understand me?
Yes, you are prideful. You will always be beneath her.
Get
Over
It.
I could understand your objection to images, that would be a position I can respect and even sympathise with, but kvetching about showing respect to a women, when she is the Mother of God??
*Unless you think having a holy aura or holy immediately indicates…..
>Why might you say Goddess?
There is really nothing to suggest that Mary is a God. Unless you think that having a saint immediately indicates divinity, which would put you in an awkward position with groups like the Lutherans.
Why isn't it true that we worship Mary?
Because he is not God. She is very Holy and we pray to her, but she is a creature like us.
He calls me proud at the same time that he has a textual interpretation at the primary school level. Don't put words in my mouth, I never said she was a goddess or god or even above God, I just wanted to know why you said it was false, it doesn't imply any agreement from me. and I know what saints are and how they are not gods, you idiot, it is not because I am studying Catholicism that I buy the discourse of Protestant sects.
>As a Catholic I don't understand this.
This is obvious, for a Greek who was going to convert, he had a similar feeling. This is natural when we are approaching a structured faith like Catholicism, I may not go very far, many Protestants find the whole thing strange at first, in fact, even taking their pride aside, many Protestants convert by studying the history of Catholicism .
>Yes, you are proud. You will always be below her.
Leave it
back
I wouldn't say proud, I have no problem showing respect to a king perhaps? or perhaps Saint Augustine? Who knows Saint Patrick and his conversion to the Hiberians? or even Maria! She really isn't ordinary or just any woman, I literally said that, but I can't bow down to women. Even the saints,(females) I find this strange for several reasons.
>I could understand your objection to the images, that
his pride strikes again. Who said things about images? I was going to study this, I know the difference between venerating and adoring, don't put it in my mouth.
>but complain about showing respect to a woman, when she is the Mother of God?
Yes. woman.
>He calls me proud at the same time that he has a textual interpretation at the primary school level.
Seethe harder.
>Don't put words in my mouth, I never said she was a goddess or god or even above God
I never said you did, but you didn’t ask a clear question. “are tell me why it is not” wtf does that even mean, so I attempted to answer what I thought you might be asking. Never time make your question clearer.
> I just wanted to know why you said it was false
And I explained.
>it doesn't imply any agreement from me. and I know what saints are and how they are not gods.
Then we solved our problem.
>you idiot
Why are you having a melt down like a schoolgirl?
>it is not because I am studying Catholicism that I buy the discourse of Protestant sects.
King’s English please my good man.
>even taking their pride aside, many Protestants convert by studying the history of Catholicism.
I’m a cradle Catholic (kinda) but studying history initially made me Hate Protestants, but over time more history made me dislike Protestants a lot less.
>but I can't bow down to women. Even the saints,(females) I find this strange for several reasons
And I call that pride.
>his pride strikes again
Are you fricking serious?
>Who said things about images?
NO ONE! THATS THE POINT YOU FRICKING REDDITOR!
I don’t understand how you can be cool with image veneration but not veneration of women, seriously that DOES NOT COMPUTE in my brain!
>I was going to study this, I know the difference between venerating and adoring, don't put it in my mouth.
ARGHHHHHHH! You aren’t listening. Okay….. stop, tell me, what do you think I am saying about you in regards to icons? Unironic question.
>Seethe harder
....
I will no longer read a single word of yours:
mockery = discarded opinion, I argue with men, not high school boys, and you lost, you imputed things to me that didn't concern me from the beginning.
I notice you complain that I impute stuff to you and yet you do the same thing back.
I think this has arisen from a failure for people to post/read clearly.
I tried bridge the misunderstanding last post (
)
>Okay….. stop, tell me, what do you think I am saying about you in regards to icons? Unironic question.
You chose to storm off.
Guess that’s what
the men from the boys.
Brother, I will not read a single word of yours.
Sorry
Pathetic!
Be an evangelical Catholic not a Roman. They respect Mary more than Romans because they don’t make her a point of division within her Son’s body as you have already seen from response from the Romans in this thread.
>Be an evangelical Catholic
Dear friend, I will be honest with you.
I've never even heard of this denomination, don't worry, I'm not going to ask you for a 700-page text, but do you have any sources about it? Maybe a good book?
I'm lost in my question of which church to "follow", but clearly there can only be one.
In fact, I even had the "opportunity" to learn about Islam lol
It is not possible for you to be very patriarchal and Catholic at the same time, or you are one and the other. both? no.
This is evident in the Middle Ages.
Female elevation and especially motherhood are common and recurring themes in Catholicism, don't you think that the exaggerated number of queens and duchesses who are so influential to the point of basically creating the foundations of the order of chivalry is a coincidence? I also find it strange how they give a lot of respect to women in different ways and quite exaggerated. we have Proto-Indo-European and Catholicism would be Proto-Indo-Simp
Yes, look up Empress Pulcheria and her reforms leading up to Chalcedon. Mary is a goddess, without a doubt, which is why she was often invoked to fight against the Islamic deity Allah and why even now the latest famous apparition of her has many ties to the religion of Islam. The Third Secret of Fatima was about the fall of the Church and the rise of Islam in Europe. Egregores weaken when rituals are changed, and Papa John's reforms struck a death blow.
??????
Could you explain this to me again???
But honestly? I don't take Catholic mysticism (of women)seriously. God forgive me!
I feel like some Neolithic npc asking a 36 year old woman when the harvest will happen
The Marian apparitions have allowed the Catholic Church to continue to grow by appealing by and large to the development of new cults like the Immaculate Heart or Miraculous Medal. Think about "Our Lady of Guadalupe." The Protestant Reformation kicks off in the Holy Roman Empire and Mary now appears to be an Aztec princess who is sympathetic to the oppressed natives? These things feed on you and need your prayers.
I do not know what to say.
This seems strange to me.
It is strange, but I assure you that the worse things get for the Catholic Church the more "she" will appear.
serious? I didn't even notice that.
I'm going to try to look at the church from a more chronological perspective. mainly about schisms and times of crisis, in fact.
And just for a reference to Pulcheria, this is what i am referring to.
>Nestorius advocated diminishing the influence of the doctrine of the "Theotokos", i.e., "the one who gives birth to the One Who is God" or "Mother of God", in the church. This conflicted with the religious beliefs of Pulcheria, as she was a virgin empress, and a rivalry between them ensued, during which Nestorius launched a smear campaign against her. Nestorius also tried to remove Pulcheria's image and her altar cloth from the altar, against her wishes.
>Two years later, Pulcheria and Marcian summoned the Council of Chalcedon, attended by 452 bishops. It condemned the doctrines of both Nestorius and Eutyches, developed the doctrines of Cyril and Pope Leo I into one, and it declared the doctrine of the "Theotokos" orthodox. It also reversed the decision of the second Council of Ephesus and denounced it as 'Robber Council'. According to historian Averil Cameron, the Council of Chalcedon "…developed and clarified the creed of Nicaea, according to which God was Father, Son and Holy Spirit, by further proclaiming that Christ was at all times after the Incarnation fully God and fully human." Pulcheria and Marcian were both hailed as the "new Constantine" and "new Helena" at the council. From this council grew an irreconcilable gulf between Chalcedonians, those who upheld the council's decision, and Miaphysites, whose persecution began in this period.
Anyway, it is just best to stay away from sorcery and the occult in general. Appeal to God alone and do not take recourse in any intermediaries. He does not need it.
Mary is not a goddess you fricking moron
Even Jesus was a man while he was here
>Am I wrong to say that Catholics appear to worship a goddess?
The absolute state of Christianity in 2024
It's judaized paganism so yes
Rhea was a Titan and nobody ever referred to her as the "queen of heaven"
Try smarter bullshit
Jeremiah 7:18
No wonder I am so angry! Watch how the children gather wood and the fathers build sacrificial fires. See how the women knead dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. And they pour out liquid offerings to their other idol gods
Jeremiah 44:17
We will do whatever we want. We will burn incense and pour out liquid offerings to the Queen of Heaven just as much as we like—just as we, and our ancestors, and our kings and officials have always done in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For in those days we had plenty to eat, and we were well off and had no troubles!
Jeremiah 44:18
But ever since we quit burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and stopped worshiping her with liquid offerings, we have been in great trouble and have been dying from war and famine.”
“Besides,” the women added, “do you suppose that we were burning incense and pouring out liquid offerings to the Queen of Heaven, and making cakes marked with her image, without our husbands knowing it and helping us? Of course not!”
[“Therefore, this is what Yahweh of Heaven’s Armies, the God of Israel, says: I am determined to destroy every one of you! I will take this remnant of Judah—those who were determined to come here and live in Egypt—and I will consume them. They will fall here in Egypt, killed by war and famine. All will die, from the least to the greatest. They will be an object of damnation, horror, cursing, and mockery. I will punish them in Egypt just as I punished them in Jerusalem, by war, famine, and disease. Of that remnant who fled to Egypt, hoping someday to return to Judah, there will be no survivors. Even though they long to return home, only a handful will do so.”]
Jeremiah 44:24-28
Then Jeremiah said to them all, including the women, “Listen to this message from Yahweh, all you citizens of Judah who live in Egypt. This is what Yahweh of Heaven’s Armies, the God of Israel, says: ‘You and your wives have said, “We will keep our promises to burn incense and pour out liquid offerings to the Queen of Heaven,” and you have proved by your actions that you meant it. So go ahead and carry out your promises and vows to her!’
“But listen to this message from Yahweh, all you Judeans now living in Egypt: ‘I have sworn by my great name,’ says Yahweh, ‘that my name will no longer be spoken by any of the Judeans in the land of Egypt. None of you may invoke my name or use this oath: “As surely as Yahweh lives.” For I will watch over you to bring you disaster and not good. Everyone from Judah who is now living in Egypt will suffer war and famine until all of you are dead. Only a small number will escape death and return to Judah from Egypt. Then all those who came to Egypt will find out whose words are true—mine or theirs!
>O Mary, thou mediator between God and men, make of thyself the medium between the righteous God and me, a poor sinner! O Mary, thou helper in all anguish and need, come to my assistance in all sufferings, and help me resist and strive against the evil spirits and overcome all my temptations and afflictions. O Mary, thou restorer of lost grace to all men, restore unto me my lost time, my sinful and wasted life! O Mary, thou illuminator, who didst give birth to the eternal Light of the whole world, illumine my blindness and ignorance, lest I, poor sinner that I am, enter the darkness of eternal death! O Mary, thou advocate of all miserable men, be thou my advocate at my last end before the stern judgment of God, and obtain for me the grace and the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ! Amen.