Protestants still cannot demonstrate their doctrines of merit and satisfaction from the early Church. The fact of the matter being that the Church Fathers views on satisfaction, merit, and penance are closer to the Catholic point of view and contrary to the Reformed perspective.
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>All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
-Clement of Rome, to the Corinthians, Ch 32
further explanation is required from you.
what specific doctrines of merit and satisfaction are you looking for?
secondly, penance on its own does not signify that salvation is achieved thereby.
maybe you mean to imply that or maybe you dont
what's interesting to me is that the Reformation started because* people started combing over the ancient writers, not because they disregarded them.
The innovations from scripture, and even innovations upon innovations, reveal themselves if you go through these writers one by one from Christ to the present.
>Inasmuch as by confession satisfaction is settled, of confession repentance is born, by repentance God is appeased. It may also be done by castigation of one's self. What, therefore, is the business of patience in the body? In the first place, her business is the affliction of the flesh, a victim able to appease the Lord by means of the sacrifice of humiliation... Thus that Babylonish king, by the immolation of the patience of his body . . . made satisfaction to God.
(Tertullian De Patientia Ch. 13)
>Let us not then bring forward these things now, which were uttered because of some economy, but let us read all the laws, those in the New and those in the Old Testament, that are set down about almsgiving, and let us be very earnest about this matter. For this cleanses from sin. For give alms, and all things will be clean unto you. This is a greater thing than sacrifice. “For I will have mercy, and not sacrifice.” This opens the heavens. For your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.
(St. John Chrysostom Homily on Matthew 40)
>Let us then use every means to wipe off the filthiness. But first the font cleanses, afterwards other ways also, many and of all kinds. For God, being merciful, has even after this given to us various ways of reconciliation, of all which the first is that by alms-doing. By almsdeeds, it says, and deeds of faith sins are cleansed away.
(St. John Chrysostom Homily on John 73)
>If, however, each man who has committed the former sins is made good, through penitence, he to whom is committed by the loving-kindness of God the power of loosing and binding will not be deserving of condemnation, if he become less severe, as he beholds the exceeding greatness of the penitence of the sinner, so as to lessen the period of punishment, for the history in the Scriptures informs us that all who exercise penitence with greater zeal quickly receive the loving-kindness of God.
(St. Basil the Great Letter 217)
provided assorted quotes which contradict other quotes was not what was asked for;
it was
>Protestants still cannot demonstrate their doctrines of merit and satisfaction from the early Church.
that these quotes disagree is irrelevant.
Your initial quote from Clement is irrelevant to the discussion. No Catholic would disagree with the words of Clement as we all agree on the primacy of grace. The issue at hand here is can Christians make satisfaction for post-baptismal sins? Calvinists believe Christ's imputation actually means all sins, past, present, and future are satisfied so as to render any debt on our part blotted out completely. Catholics, who emphasize man's cooperative nature in sanctification, believe that our ingrafting into Christ post baptism mean that, via the works of Christ applied to our own, we can and we must make satisfaction for post-baptismal sins. The issue here isn't on initial justification, the issue is related on how Christ's satisfaction specifically applies to us. Calvinists often try to pit justification and sanctification against each other and completely ignore the actual dynamics between the two. Ironically their position comes closer to what the Valentinian Gnostics taught about sin and sanctification.
>The issue here isn't on initial justification
every verse and every quote on justification by faith alone you take, a priori of NOTHING, and claim it is only this mysterious "initial justification" as though Jesus' couldn't save you all the way.
There is no reason to do this other than if you don't, you are unequivocally proven wrong about everything.
Scripture is very clear about the transformative power of sanctification, we are "new creatures" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). Paul is also very clear that
1. that upon justification we are to die to sin and no longer be enslaved to it (Romans 6:5-6),
2. that those who do in fact sin after justification and do not live by the Spirit will not be saved (Romans 8:13),
and 3. that Christians who continue in obedience will lead be lead to life:
>Do you not know that, if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which LEADS to righteousness?
>But thanks be to God that you who were slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted
>and that you, having been set free from sin, have become enslaved to righteousness.
>I am speaking in human terms because of your limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness, leading to even more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification...
... But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the fruit you have leads to sanctification, and the end is eternal life...
(Romans 6:16-19; 22)
Protestants get confused easily about justification and will make up ad hoc distinctions like "experiential righteousness" to explain away passages like these in Paul or that which shows up in James because their positions on forensic justification is much too strong.
>their positions is much too strong
True. Thank you.
continuing, the reason I say you have no prior reason to even believe in this thing called "initial justification"; it's nowhere in the Bible.
Anyone; man, woman, boy, and girl, knows that
>But to him that worketh not, but believeth
is present tense continual aspect.
It's not some thing that happened once as an initial justification, it's him that doesn't work, but believes.
>>For after I wrote to you the letter which I sent by Saturus the reader, and Optatus the sub-deacon, the combined temerity of certain of the lapsed, who refuse to repent and to make satisfaction to God, wrote to me, not asking that peace might be given to them, but claiming it as already given; because they say that Paulus has given peace to all, as you will read in their letter of which I have sent you a copy, as well as what I briefly replied to them in the meantime.
(St. Cyprian of Carthage Epistle 28)
>Wherefore, brother, if you consider God’s majesty who ordains priests, if you will for once have respect to Christ, who by His decree and word, and by His presence, both rules prelates themselves, and rules the Church by prelates; if you will trust, in respect of the innocence of bishops, not human hatred, but the divine judgment; if you will begin even a late repentance for your temerity, and pride, and insolence; if you will most abundantly make satisfaction to God and His Christ whom I serve, and to whom with pure and unstained lips I ceaselessly offer sacrifices, not only in peace, but in persecution; we may have some ground for communion with you, even although there still remain among us respect and fear for the divine censure; so that first I should consult my Lord whether He would permit peace to be granted to you, and you to be received to the communion of His Church by His own showing and admonition.
(St. Cyprian of Carthage Epistle 68)
>Wherefore, brother, if you consider God’s majesty who ordains priests, if you will for once have respect to Christ, who by His decree and word, and by His presence, both rules prelates themselves, and rules the Church by prelates; if you will trust, in respect of the innocence of bishops, not human hatred, but the divine judgment; if you will begin even a late repentance for your temerity, and pride, and insolence; if you will most abundantly make satisfaction to God and His Christ whom I serve, and to whom with pure and unstained lips I ceaselessly offer sacrifices, not only in peace, but in persecution; we may have some ground for communion with you, even although there still remain among us respect and fear for the divine censure; so that first I should consult my Lord whether He would permit peace to be granted to you, and you to be received to the communion of His Church by His own showing and admonition.
(St. Ambrose of Milan On Repentance Book II)
>“We must beware, however, lest anyone suppose that unspeakable crimes such as they commit who “will not possess the Kingdom of God” can be perpetrated daily and then daily redeemed by almsgiving. Of course, life must be changed for the better, and alms should be offered as propitiation to God for our past sins. But he is not somehow to be bought off, as if we always had a license to commit crimes with impunity. For, “he has given no man a license to sin” although, in his mercy, he does blot out sins already committed, if due satisfaction for them is not neglected.”
(>St. Augustine Enchiridion Ch. 19)
>Now the daily prayer of the believer makes satisfaction for those daily sins of a momentary and trivial kind which are necessary incidents of this life. For he can say, Our Father which art in heaven, seeing that to such a Father he is now born again of water and of the Spirit. And this prayer certainly takes away the very small sins of daily life. It takes away also those which at one time made the life of the believer very wicked, but which, now that he is changed for the better by repentance, he has given up, provided that as truly as he says, Forgive us our debts (for there is no want of debts to be forgiven), so truly does he say, as we forgive our debtors; that is, provided he does what he says he does: for to forgive a man who asks for pardon, is really to give alms.
(St. Augustine Enchiridion Ch. 71)
There's plenty more. Fact of the matter is the early Church Father's did not subscribe to Calvin's particular doctrine on imputation, the Christian can make satisfaction for their sins to God through his actions.
>Fact of the matter is the early Church Father's did not subscribe to Calvin's particular doctrine on imputation, the Christian can make satisfaction for their sins to God through his actions.
not all of them did, that's true.
what is that to us?
some did though, and chiefly the Bible does.
although I disagree with Calvin's predestination; the doctrine of imputed righteousness is both clear* in the Bible and articulated by several Church writers.
You don't even agree with the original church on fundamental matters. Who are you talking? Here's Hippolytus to explain.
Now, will you put forth what, in particular, you want us to demonstrate, or is this thread meant to be an exercise for you in copypasting from catholic apologetical websites?
Church fathers thought wildly different things please drop this meme
>Church fathers thought wildly different things please drop this meme
Not really. Only on operational things like baptism. There was no disagreement as to what Jesus taught.
This thread is Palmarian propaganda
We're going to put a dunce cap on you before we burn you, heretic
You're on borrowed time
St. Paul is clear, justification is by faith alone. Cope.
He never even comes close to teaching that.
You go to heaven by faith and perfect contrition before death. The first grace is unmerited and so is final perseverance. The final grace God gives you to have contrition and faith before death is unmerited.