Did anyone in "Japan" identify as "Japanese" or "Nihhon" and use it as an ethnonym before the Meiji era?
I've never seen any direct evidence of it.
Nihhon is a literal Chinese word which the Changs used as a geographical term for the islands to the east of Chinese mainland. Japanese is a Portuguese word for the islands to the east of the Chinese mainland.
Not sure which words they used historically, but there has always been a notion of Japanese identity and we can tell this from the fact that there are dozens of stories where they differentiate entities like China and India as being foreign lands. From a geographic perspective, I don't think it's impossible that the name East has been used in a self-identifying manner. The name China itself (Zhongguo) is another name based on geography.
While zhongguo to talk about the imperial center is old it only spread in the 19th century and wasn’t even the definitive name until the republican era
zhongguo was the name the Qing identified itself by in the Treaty of Nerchinsk with Tsarist Russia in the 17th century.
Yes but it wasn't even widespread among chinks
Yes it was. In History of Yuan a Mongol offocial (son of Toqtoa) refers to the Yuan dynasty as Zhongguo. In the Ming dynasty, Ming officials refer to people of China (Ming subjects) as Zhongguo people in official documents.
>but there has always been a notion of Japanese identity
Prove it then. I keep seeing this bullshit being spread like wildfire by you fricking moronic weebs but I've never seen any of you substantiate it.
When you are not able to substantiate your claim, it means you're full of shit.
What's the alternative? Japs always saw themselves as Chinese?
Here comes the whataboutism.
Substantiate your claim or shut the frick up.
Ethnic tribes. Japan had several. The main branches being native Jomon and the Yayoi (Korean) immigrants. That's why the full meaning of the Shogun title is something like Barbarian Tribe destroying military leader.
The Chinese-Korean tribes that settled in Japan probably saw themselves differently to the Han, Manchus, or other Chinese tribes
Not wrong, but not right.
The concept of ethnicity or country didn't exist there until the late 19th century. They spoke different Japonic languages but they only identified with their families. It was a very tribal society. They had no ethno-cultural identities there. They sided with whatever family aka clan that had the strongest troops to defend their crops.
these two things are not mutually exlusive, homosexual. The japanese saw themselves as distinct from the rest of East Asia, but also followed other local/tribal allegiances. This isn't that far off from what Greeks did, where they recognized their collective similarities, but nonetheless they preserved loyalty to their individual city-states. The notion that there has never been any sense of ethnic identity before the 19th century is just revisionist bullshit designed to delgitimize the notion of nationalism.
they identified themselves with whoever their feudal master was
Allegorical tales, as I've said. There's an old story in Japan where a tiger (China's national animal, and king of beasts) enters Japan, but is outsmarted by a fox (Japan) who is smaller but uses strategy. This is just one example. Honestly, you can frick off if you think I'm going to write down hundreds of old stories when you clearly don't know this subject.
>Tiger and Fox is a Chinese folk tale in the oral tradition. Also known as The Fox Borrows the Tiger’s Terror, it came from Intrigues of the Warring States (sometimes called Strategies of the Warring States), which is a collection of stories compiled during the 5th-3rd centuries BC in the time of the Western Han Dynasty.
>Prove it then.
NIHONshoki was written in the 8th century, are you stupid or moronic?
Nihhon is a Chinese word, Nihonshoki was written in Chinese and it was a copy paste of a Chinese literary work. It has nothing to do with what OP is asking for. Learn how to read, you fricking moron.
>日本 is not 日本 because uhhh reasons
Are you just pretending to be moronic?
Nihon is not an ethnic name, it's the name of the state now. The ethnic name is Yamato. Nihon is a direct Chinese loanword and was never used by Japanese before the 7th century.
Oh look, it's this moronic thread again.
The Japanese identity is a late 19th century invention by the Meijis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron
This is completely untrue. Nihonjinron just revamped and polished up the Japanese identity. It existed before it kind of like an uncut diamond, like
said.
Is this a fricking kid holy shit.
I found the pic on /s/, where jailbait is forbidden. If she's underage, then blame the /s/ jannies for not doing their job.
She's an adult. Asian women age ridiculously better than other women do.
Wrong, and anyone who posts a photoshopped picture of a yellow roastie with a shitton of make-up and plastic surgeries has no credentials.
>Did anyone in "Japan" identify as "Japanese" or "Nihhon"
Yes, not necessarily those specific words though.
>and use it as an ethnonym
Probably not in the modern sense of ethnicity. Sure there were obvious racial differences that would differentiate Japanese from others like the Ainu; but I bet you could plop a Korean or Chinese in pre Meiji Japan, make them dress, act, and live like a native Japanese and no one would know the difference. There are surviving literature from the Heian era in Japan like "The Tale of Genji" that shows some Japanese used names like "Yamato" to describe themselves. That said, we can't assume they used it to identify themselves as an ethnic group, rather more from shared cultural and geographic traits.
What words did they use then? Are you able to show direct evidence?
>Yes, not necessarily those specific words though.
This. When the Portuguese came they were talking about Niffon guchi, Nifon shoukoku and so on. But that's not exactly "I am Japanese", rather "I am person of Japan". Just like in Europe, this would have a completely different connotation than in the modern times when saying you're Japanese means "I was born, possibly raised there, have the official Japanes nationality, speak the official language,..."
>There are surviving literature from the Heian era in Japan like "The Tale of Genji" that shows some Japanese used names like "Yamato" to describe themselves.
Are there? http://jti.lib.virginia.edu/japanese/genji/frames/index.html
Does have two mentions of yamato which are readings of 大和 and 倭, respectively. But I haven't once seen a single explanation as to why.
Wiktionary conveniently gives yamato2, which would make one think they have it written out in Manyougana somewhere. But the truth is that's just... ahem: Take Old Chinese 邪馬台国, then reconstruct Early Middle Chinese, which then serves as the base for the sound values of Early Middle Chinese symbols in contemporary Japanese, with which you then transcribe the Old Chinese symbols from before. That's moronic.
Manyoushu and Kojiki have plenty of these symbols but they never transliterate them, so Oo-yamato-no-rimu-jobu doesn't really have much to go off of as to why not call it Oo-wa-no-rimu-jobu. And as late as Edo period, their reconstructions of 大和国 (in this case by 新井白石) were transliterated as O-ho-kuni. So it doesn't seem like "common sense" to just slap yamato wherever that symbol appears for a guy working in 18th century. Okinawan languages have the word, but they reconstruct back to yamato, i.e. it's fairly obviously dragged there by (early) modern speaking Japanese since the internal reconstructions of the word would expect at least yabato.
Do you know where they got it from?
Its complicated and I got this from a mess of Western/Japanese sources.
From the 300s AD-1200s AD, following the Chinese example, the Japanese tended to call their country & people with the dynasty that unified them: in this case the "The Yamato." This is why- similar to the Chinese "Han" or "Huaxia"- when the Japanese refer to their country in the classical sense, they use the term "Yamato" (i.e. Yamato Damashii = Japanese Heart/Mind, Yamato Nadeshiko = Classic Japanese Beauty)
Now here is where it gets fricky.
In the 1000s-1200s when the Imperial Throne got more & more secluded, 2 things happened to the Japanese identity: 1) Japanese people tended to identify with their locality and paradoxically 2) Japanese identity also unified as it got divorced from the Imperial Court and became more cultural/national entity.
1) When the Imperial Court lived in its own isolated world beginning by the 900s AD, and the Local Lords/Warriors become the real powers in their provinces who ran it like private kingdoms, the mass of the Japanese people- feudal peasants as they were- tended to identify with their Domain rather than a "national" identity. Like they'd call themselves "Man of Mikawa" or "Man of Aizu." The people of Satsuma- the fief most distant from Kyoto- famously treated their Domain like it was an independent country. Historians called this phenomena "Han (Jap word for feudal domain) Nationalism," with some radical Japanese historians even claiming that these were entire subnational identities that the Meiji destroyed in their efforts to create the Jap nation. A narrative supported by the fact that Satsuma and Ezo declaring independence during the chaos of 1860-1870, when people here disagreed with the Meiji Government's policies.
2) Paradoxically the withdrawal of the Imperial Court from managing the country ALSO UNIFIED the Japanese people into a single cultural identity. You see, just like the Chinese, the Japanese adopted the Hua-Yi (Civilized vs. Barbarian) distinction, wherein the world was divided between the (Chinese) Civilized "Us" and the non-Chinese Barbarian "Them." In the Japanese case, this distinction was localized by the Japs as it forced them to think where & what they were in this world. Japanese classical thinkers concluded that they a unique part of the civilized world, lying at the east of civilization's center (China) where the Sun rises (hence Nihon) leading to pretty much the germ of the "Japanese identity" and the idea of there being a Japanese culture.
So where does the Emperor being a withdrawn hermit plays into this? As the Emperor withdrew, people identify with the Yamato court less. While this led to the localization of Japanese identity, this also gave space for the Japanese to think of themselves as an entity that existed as a distinct cultural identity, divorced from simply being loyal to the Yamato court.
This Philosophical-Cultural moment was further bolstered when Japan faced its first completely foreign (read, non-Sinic) entity: the Mongol Invasions of 1270-1280s. Not only did this period saw the Japanese (or at least their Lords) uniting together & moving by themselves outside of Imperial Command to save their country from a foreign threat, but the alien "barbarism" of the Mongols encouraged the Japanese to begin thinking of how unique they were vs. the world.
As such, by the 1400s and prior modern Japanese Nationalism, Japanese identity was this complex creature wherein you had people from this place calling themselves "Nihon" when relating with foreigners, but at the same time are utterly fricking local that they would consider gays from a different feudal domain as practical foreigners.
To end: some historians pointed out that Chinese records are a good reference point to see where the Japanese identity emerged. From the moment they first met the Japs in 200s AD up until the 1300s AD, the Chinese referred to them as the Wa (Dwarf/Short) people. By the mid Ming Dynasty the Chinese now called both them and their people as Riben (the Chinese translation of "Nihon") while "Wa" devolved into a derogatory/racist term for the Japanese, used only in anger & condescension.
>both the country and the people as Riben*
>the Local Lords/Warriors become the real powers in their provinces who ran it like private kingdoms, the mass of the Japanese people- feudal peasants as they were- tended to identify with their Domain rather than a "national" identity. Like they'd call themselves "Man of Mikawa" or "Man of Aizu
Yep, it was pretty much this until the Meiji era. These warlords established their own little states with their own administrations and their subjects identified with their clans. They didn't have a sense of national identity or ethnic identity.
> This Philosophical-Cultural moment was further bolstered when Japan faced its first completely foreign (read, non-Sinic) entity: the Mongol Invasions of 1270-1280s. Not only did this period saw the Japanese (or at least their Lords) uniting together & moving by themselves outside of Imperial Command to save their country from a foreign threat, but the alien "barbarism" of the Mongols encouraged the Japanese to begin thinking of how unique they were vs. the world.
Some things to note here, only few warlords came together, basically those who saw the Mongol invasion agreed on a temporary ceasefire to try to stop the Mongol invasion. They did it to protect their countries, not country. Again, they had their own administrations and ruled their domains as independent countries (as you previously said).
>you had people from this place calling themselves "Nihon"
They used Nihhon as a geographical term for their region*. It's like saying "yeah I'm from Europe" to some dude from the Americas.
This is how the Japanese identity was created.
Some dudes in Tokyo were jerking off to books about 19th century Western fascism. They acquired European weaponry and conquered all of the land in a matter of weeks and founded an independent state over the islands with a single governing body.
They decided to name their new state as Japan and Nihhon because those were used as regional terms to the islands to the east of China. They declared that everyone and everything in their conquered islands are Japanese/Nihhon. Those who refused to identify as such got immediately killed. They took the most spoken Japonic language in Tokyo, made an insane amount of changes to it, it became a new language and they forced everyone to speak it. Those who refused to speak it got killed. They carried out a serious case of ethnic cleansing at a massive scale that made the British and Germans look like angels.
thus proving another illustration of too many people existing being the sourge of humanity, which is ironic.
japanese class is based in more indigineous aspects of island cultures and asian cultures. the mongrel asians will never run the class of japan.
>Asian
>Far East
Pick one.
Oh btw the Japs are Mongrels. Close to over 90% of their population can trace most of their DNA to the inhabitants in the Chinese mainland and Korean peninsula. It's a shame that Meiji ethnically cleansed everyone, it would've been interesting to see how common Korean, Chinese and other languages were there.
>Close to over 90% of their population can trace most of their DNA to the inhabitants in the Chinese mainland and Korean peninsula
No Japs share 90% of their ancestry with koreans not chinks, which is why both Japan and South korea are much more advanced than china. The vast majority of China is a third world shithole inhabitated by a mongrelized asians called "han", genetically speaking southern and nothern han don't have much in common. "han" is just an extremely vague ethnic label made up to strenghten national cohesion.
Koreans were repeatedly raped by Han Chinese Xianbei, Mongols and Manchus throughout history adn don't even have a stable ethnic name and you're trying to lecture Chinese people on being mongrelized, LOL.
New genetic tests compared modern Han Chinese to Kofun era Japanese remains from 300 AD (modern Japanese derive 71% of their genes from Kofun)
Han Chinese contributed massively to the East Asian component that create Kofun by mixing out Yayoi and Jomon. Japanese do not share the majority of their genes with Koreans aka mongrelized rapbabies.
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/11984267/#q11984267
Doesn't that mean Han Chinese are cucks? Not only conquered endlessly, but also formed the majority of DNA of neighboring populations.
That means Han Chinese raped their neighbours.
The Wu hu rebellion (five barbarian rebellion) was literally done by nomad slaves who were conquered and enslaved by Han Chinese and then later revolted during an internal Han Chinese civil war.
the first non-Han barbarian dynasties were foudned by raped slaves of Han Chinese who got fricked dozens of times by their Han masters.
Look up Shi Le's profession before he became emperor. He was a slaved of a Han Chinese official with a cangue around his neck and his people raped and sold like chattel. He was given his name by his Han Chinese master just like black slaves in the Americas.
Cuckorean history of getting raped and conquered for thousands of years.
Korean history is over 2,000 years of rape, humiliation, castration and enslavement by foreign invaders.
https://archived.moe/his/thread/12011702/
The Mongols even distributed Korean girls to Han Chinese defectors and Central Asian Semu people in the Tammachi army.
>genetically speaking southern and nothern han don't have much in common.
asiaticrean fantasy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_East_Asians#Genetic_history_of_Han_Chinese
A 2018 study calculated pairwise FST (a measure of genetic difference) based on genome-wide SNPs, among the Han Chinese (Northern Han from Beijing and Southern Han from Hunan, Jiangsu and Fujian provinces), Japanese and Korean populations sampled. It found that the smallest FST value was between Northern Han Chinese(Beijing) (CHB) and Southern Han(Hunan and Fujian etc) Chinese (CHS) (FST[CHB-CHS]=0.0014), while CHB and Korean (KOR) (FST[CHB-KOR]=0.0026) and between KOR and Japanese (JPT) (FST[JPT-KOR]=0.0033). Generally, pairwise FST between Han Chinese, Japanese and Korean (0.0026~0.0090) are greater than that within Han Chinese (0.0014). These results suggested Han Chinese, Japanese and Korean are different in terms of genetic make-up, and the differences among the three groups are much larger than that between northern and southern Han Chinese.[21]
Another study shows that the northern and southern Han Chinese are genetically closest to each other and it finds that the genetic characteristics of present-day northern Han Chinese were already formed as early as three thousand years ago in the Central Plain area.[22]
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/11991595/#q11991595
Samples extracted from modern Han Chinese fit match Kofun Japanese migration, not with Koreans.
Genetic samples were taken a few years ago from modern Han Chinese in Beijing and published in the 2015 1000 Genomes project, and then it was used in a new test that was published this year on Japanese ancient DNA and successfully modelled as a source of East Asian ancestry in Kofun era Japanese 1,700 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_Genomes_Project
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abh2419
Modern Han Chinese sampled in Beijing, 2015 are the closest fit to the population which contributed East Asian ancestry to Kofun, not Koreans.
Why do Koreans try to claim racial kinship with Japanese? War babies from the Imjin war?
Is the Korean pretending to be a Japanese going to lie and claim the modern Han sample in the Kofun test is ackshually from extinct eastern barbarians? How stupid does the Kimchi think people are?
Korean female ancestors were raped by foreign invaders since Gojoseon.
>https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abh2419
>While the West Liao populations used in our admixture models did not themselves practice rice farming, they are situated just north of a hypothesized route of agricultural spread into Japan, to which our results lend weight. This follows the Shandong Peninsula (northeastern China) into the Liaodong Peninsula (northwestern part of the Korean Peninsula) and then reaches the archipelago via the Korean Peninsula (41).
We further investigated how the Yayoi culture spread into the archipelago using outgroup f3 statistics that measured genetic affinity between the Yayoi and each of the Jomon individuals. We find that the strength of shared genetic drift has a significant correlation with the distance from the location of the Yayoi individuals (P = 0.00697; Fig. 4C); the closer the Jomon archaeological sites are to the Yayoi site, the more the Jomon individuals share genetic drift with the Yayoi. This result supports the introduction of rice farming via the Korean Peninsula (41, 42), followed by admixture with local Jomon populations in the south of the archipelago.
This is why you should read the article before posting. It literally says Kofun migrants most likely came from southern Korea. It's important to remember though that the Kofun migrants were probably not Koreanic, but rather peninsular Japonic migrants pushed out by the northern Koreanic invaders. Linguists such as Vovin have theorized that southern Korea might have been Japonic due to a Japonic substrata in former Korean place names pre-Sinicization.
China ruled Korea at that time dumbass and the Nihon Shoki said the Han Chinese migrants came around that time in 289-300s via Korea.
China ruled northern Korear in Laland commandery until 313 and the Nihon Shoki says Han Chinese migrants led by a Han dynasty royal descendant Achi No Omi (Liu Azhi) migrated to Japan via Baekja in south Korea.
The Nihon Shoki denies the migrants being Korean and says they were Han Chinese.
japan was unified as a single entity at the beginning of the 17th century, you fricking baffoon.
>Assmad chink makes another "japs are fake!" thread
>assmad weeb defends his idols who despise him
I vaguely remember something about a 18th century Japanese scholar who criticised Confucianism, Buddhism and Shinto. The first two because they were foreign and thus not suitable for the Japanese people (he considered Shinto to be too mystic)
>China ruled Korea at that time dumbass and the Nihon Shoki said the Han Chinese migrants came around that time in 289-300s via Korea. China ruled northern Korear in Laland commandery until 313
They ruled Northern Korea. The 4 Han commandery did not reach Southern Korea. Your article says the Kofun migrants came from southern Korean. So the Lelang commandery is irrelevant. The point is to check your sources. If you want to prove that Japanese were Han Chinese Kofun migrant rapebabies, then use a source that supports it. Actually quote the Nihon Shoki instead of reading your wiki articles.
The Nihon Shoki says they were Han Chinese who migrated into Baekje and then to Japan.