Haplogroups of some ancient peoples

obviously but the way you phrased it, "Most greeks aren't even E*, let alone the V13 subclade." it sounded like you wanted to say that the E in greece is not even E-v13, which is obviously completely false, the E in greece is overwhelmingly E-v13

You're using that incorrectly too. Ancient Greeks were mostly J, specifically J2.

most of the E in italy is E-v13 too, but south italy has significantly less E in general than greece and the balkans

E-v13 in italy was clearly spread by greek colonists

mena don't carry e-v13, there's a bit in the middle east but it was the other way around, carried from europe, E in italy was carried by other europeans from the balkans

if we consider Anatolian farmers to be MENA then yes

anon, i'm tired, e-v13 comes from e-l618 that was already in the balkans since the neolithic, e-v13 literally developed in europe, and it spread from there, the samples that OP is talking about from the early iron age balkans are the first ever e-v13
e-v13 peaks in the balkans and it's mainly found in europe, even the northeastern parts of europe has more e-v13 than the "middle east" (mena is moronic because it has literally 0-1% presence in north africa), the very little amount that there is in the middle east was carried by europeans
italy does not even have a particularly significant presence of E in general compared to greece and the balkans, they got their E(that is mostly e-v13) from an european source, may they be balkaners or slavs that passed thought the balkans

alright so you are moronic, E-l618 entered into europe with anatolian farmers during the neolithic, e-v13 literally started to exist in europe, developed from that E-l618
all haplogorups eventually descend from A that is african, i guess everyone is ultimately african

can we have a serious discussion for once?

>Ancient Greeks were mostly J
I'm not talking about ancient greeks, however, and a significant percentage of modern greeks are J1, to the point that J is sometimes more common than E when you take J1 into account while J2 alone would have been less common. That's the reason I'm formulating it like that.

> "most Greeks aren't even J, let alone J2"
it's not really the same because e-v13 is the absolute majority of the E in greece

>J2 is the absolute majority of J too, and yet
and yet it's not 100%, but saying "let alone" in the common parlance implies that it's a small minority of the E

>Again, E-M123/E-M34 is extremely relevant in some regions
e-v13 is absolutely the overwhelming majority in all regions, maybe only in cyprus it's not, and event there it has a presence

I think you should rather be asking what were the Polish BVLLs doing

There's no way Thracians were I2 and R1a. Illyrians probably had some E, but most of it was J2 and R1b.

I posted only Iron Age samples, but there are many bronze age ones from Croatia. 90% of them are either J2 or R1b.

[...]
So the origin of E-V13 is now known?
What about T? Doesnt make sense to ascribe v13, g, t all to EEF

It seems like E-V13's founder effect came from the East Balkans (Bulgaria from these samples).

https://i.imgur.com/eEqRdjv.png

Thracians - mostly E-v13, minority R1b-z2103 and R1b-pf7563

Illyrians - mostly J2b, minority R1b-z2103 and R1b-u152 (is language from them?)

Adriatic veneti - R1b-u152?

Mycenaeans - mostly J2? minority G, R1b-z2103 and R1b-pf7563

Dorians - mostly E-v13?

Urartians - mostly R1b-Z2103, minority J2a and G

Am I correct?

>Thracians
Unless I'm missing something the samples identified by Lazaridis as "Thracian" are all E with one z93.
So I'm not sure they are r1b and frankly this fits the linguistics.
>Illyrians - mostly J2b, minority R1b-z2103
I'm not sure a z2103 origin is as convincing anymore compared to an Urnfield one but perhaps we need samples from different sites.
>Mycenaeans - mostly J2? minority G, R1b-z2103 and R1b-pf7563
This is probably the case but we don't have further reads on the R1b to get to z2103.
>Dorians - mostly E-v13?
I'm not sure where you are seeing this, they are probably like the other Greeks.
>Urartians
yes

beirut_IAIII is from late iron age and probably a bit mixed with philistine admixture and is a bit shifted towards europe, use the early iron age beirut_IAII that is identical to bronze age levantines

BTFO

Don't forget N1c. It's another Slavic haplogroup brought everywhere by Slavs!

i'm white dutch, dilate

i speak language of my u106 ancestors. cope more slav(e)

have a nice day mentally ill moron

I2 is very likely spread by slavs, the clade in the balkans are slavic clades present among northern slavs, and greeks have the same clades as the other balkaners
possibly they got it from slav admixed balkaners

wrong, they are largely the same anon, most of their haplogroup are actually pretty comparable to their neighbors in the balkans

the majority is the same as other balkaners

>No. Greeks are the most J2 AND R1b rich ethnicity in the entire Balkans. Other Balkaners are largely E1b1b and I2.
they have a similar breakdown overall, with a larger emphasis on J2 but overall you can see that they are mostly similar, and yes their clades of I2 are largely the same as other balkaners
modern greeks are balkaners

>It's not just J2 that's more common among Greeks. R1b is also more common among Greeks. J2 and R1b are not common among balkaners while E1b1b and I2(Greece has several different kinds of I2 clades), plus R1a to a lesser extent, are more common among balkaners.
they are not exactly the same, they are at the southern end of balkaners, but they are largely similar to other balkaners, all those haplogroups have a presence all around the balkans, greeks have large amounts of I2 and e-v13
and again, most of the I2 in greece is similar to the ones that balkaners have

last comment, they have some variation but the breakdown is largely similar especially to southern balkaners like albanians, macedonians and bulgarians, they also have significant presence of J2 and r1b, likewise greeks have significant presence of e-v13 and I2(that is generally something around 10-20%)

they are similar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe
and you are wrong, in many set of samples r1a surpasses r1b or is more or less equal, likewise sometimes E surpasses J or is equal, I surpasses r1b and so on and so forth, they are really not that different from south balkaners

>If you are counting those studies from 2003 that couldn't even tell P* apart, then sure.
those studies could tell apart basic I, J, R1b and R1a and E
it's not as you want it to be

>Recent studies found J + R1b can make the majority of Greek haplogroups which no other combination can do in Greece. Of course balkaners also have their own E1b1b + I2 + R1a combination which makes up their own majority of haplogroups.
recent studies show the same, R1b is not that predominant as you make it out to be, often surpassed by r1a, I2, E-v13, likewise balkaners have J2 and R1b too in decent amount

>With sample sizes of 20 people, moron.
don't start lying now, there are samples sizes of any kind, with many surpassing the 100 and others close to it

>No they don't. Recent studies have hundreds of Greek samples and the J + R1b combination can easily be a majority which no other combination can do in Greece.
yes they do

>moron you are quoting 2001 studies with 11 samples.
for a second time, do not lie

>No they don't. A recent study's results were 330 J + R1b samples out of 630 total Greek samples. You can't find anything like this in balkaners.
those were cypriot greeks, that you can see in pic related on the bottom

>moron that literally shows 15 and 20 samples from 2003, numerous times.
it also shows sample sets with more than 100 people, so you were lying
and yes di giacommo 2003 has 350 greeks, that's just the breakdown per region

>Also the latest and most comprehensive study on Greeks.
a shame that is done on completely different greeks that are absolutely not representative of continental greeks, they aren't even that similar to island greeks, so you are absolutely wrong if your argument is based on cypriots

>Some were, but most were 20 samples.
those is 1 sample set, it's just the breakdown, di giacommo 2003 has 350 samples, firasat 2007 has 77, helgason 2000 has 118, king 2008 has 364, zalloua 2008 has 142, battaglia 2008 has 149 and so on

>Seethe
anon, you are simply wrong, lashing out like a kid isn't helping your case
cypriots are not even remotely representative of your average greek whether you like it or not, they have 5-10% slavic admixture on a good day

>No, it's 8 different populations with only 15 or 20 samples
no anon, it's the breakdown of 1 set of samples with 350 samples in total all from the same study(di giacommo 2003)
and there are many other studies with over 100 samples, you literally made up the number 11

> An actual study with 600 samples, the most ever sampled in a Greek population
those are cypriots, they are not similar greeks

>This claim is also wrong. Cypriot Greeks are closely related to other Greek populations and identical with other Greek islanders.
>post the distance from the most southernized dodecanense sample
you're trolling at this point

Distance to: Cypriot
0.06736838 Greek_Peloponnese
0.07809720 Greek_Thessaly
0.08133522 Greek_Macedonia

>How are you this stupid? Each population only has 15 or 20 samples each. It doesn't matter how much the total is when each population has that low a sample count.
are you fricking moronic, that's how studies work, they take a bit of people from around the country, not everyone in one place
the study has overall 350 people

>As I showed they are identical with Greek islanders.
they are not identical

>You are actually a moron. Dodecanese are pure while you are trying to cherrypick the most Slavic population.
i'm not cherrypicking anything
i included southern continental greeks too like peloponnese, guess what? 95% of greeks are continental greeks
and among that 5% of island greeks most are cretese that tend to be more shifted towards continental greeks
you are the actual moron that is cherrypicking a few islands

Distance to: Cypriot
0.03528880 Greek_Crete
0.06294599 Greek_Laconia
0.06399332 Greek_East_Taygetos(Peloponnese)
0.06736838 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06823881 Greek_Elis(Peloponnese)
0.06862998 Greek_Corinthia(Peloponnese)
0.06905482 Greek_Argolis(Peloponnese)
0.07007912 Greek_Achaea(Peloponnese)
0.07020232 Greek_Arcadia(Peloponnese)
0.07092395 Greek_Messenia(Peloponnese)
0.07275702 Greek_West_Taygetos(Peloponnese)
0.07809720 Greek_Thessaly
0.08133522 Greek_Macedonia
0.08264469 Greek_Central_Macedonia

>Again how are you this stupid? No study works by take 10 samples from one population. Each population needs to have hundreds of samples like how the most recent, best studies did it.
you are mentally, all studies take some 20-40 samples different localities and not all in one place, even that cyprus study doesn't take all cypriots from one place

>As I showed they are identical with Greek islanders.
they aren't they are closest to the most southern shifted greek islanders and not even the same, they are not "identical" either

>Yes you are a moron trying to cherrypick the most Slavic-rich populations.
you motherfricking moron, you are literally picking samples from fricking cappadocia

>These are the purest Greeks and they are the ones closest to Cypriot Greeks.
"purest" by what metric?
half of these are not even from greece, cappadocia, central anatolia, izmir aren't from greece, and 0.5 isn't close

do you understand that we are talking about haplogroups of modern greeks from greece?

>None of them take 15-20 samples from dozens of autosomally distinct populations and claim it's one sample
yes they actually do much worse

they take 1 sample from every locality, pic related is all the places from where they took those 630 samples

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#MOESM2
>Genomic DNA was isolated from the whole peripheral blood [15] from 629 healthy unrelated Greek-Cypriot adult males. We attempted to achieve adequate geographical coverage by sampling from 300 different locations of all six official districts of Cyprus with sample number proportional to population size of each district (Additional file 2: Figure S1).

you are absolutely fricking moronic, this is how studies work

>At 0.02 they are identical.
not really, and it's already 0.35 with cretese that are 80% of island greeks

>They are Greeks.
so you are completely diverting the argument and pretending we weren't talking about greeks from greece now?

>Greek ancestry, moron. Greek islanders are the purest.
they aren't the "purest"

>They are all Greek, moron.
we are talking about greeks from greece

>moron, you have forgotten, so I will remind you that this conversation is about Greeks. If you thought this was about a modern nation-state that was your own misunderstanding from your moronation.
nope, this conversation is about greeks from greece, it has always been, we are talking about how greeks from the balkans are balkaners, no one talked about pontic greeks, pontic greeks have little to no slavic admixture so obviously they are not going to have slavic derived haplogroups

>It's the same autosomal population, moron. Each district had hundreds of samples.
so are the continental greeks from that study, take the L
studies work like that, they take people from different localities not in one place, that study simply showed the breakdown

>This has always been about ethnic Greeks. When was it stated they must be from the borders of modern Greece?
since the beggining of the thread

>They are. They are identical to the original Greeks from the 12th century BCE while the northern Greeks you cherrypicked would not exist until the 9th century CE.
not true and this is completely irrelevant, we are discussing the haplogorups of modern greeks

>That was not mentioned anywhere. This topic was always about ethnic Greeks.
since we are talking about haplogroups derived from slavic migrations we are not including people in fricking cappadocia

ok let me make this clear, let's start this from scratch, i was talking about greeks from the nation of greece
do you agree that greeks from the nation of greece have similar haplogroups compared to other balkaners?

>Why would you even try to claim this, moron? Continental Greeks vary widely based on geographic location.
they are very similar to each other

>It's fine for an autosomally identical population like Greek Cypriots.
it's always done like that whether you like it or not, you're just backtracking and using double standards

>It is completely true. Greek islanders like the Dodecanese are identical with ancient Greeks while northern Greeks are mutts that aren't.
not true, and we aren't here to argue this

>It is very relevant. Greek Cypriots are closer to the ancient Greeks than the Greek Macedonians you wanted to cherrypick.
we are talking about MODERN GREEKS, do you understand? even if cypriots were myceneans(they aren't) it would be irrelevant to whether or not modern greeks have one haplogroup or the other

>No. Their breakdowns are completely different. Only the J + R1b combination forms a majority in Greek populations while no other combination can do that.
this is not true according to studies on modern greeks from greece

>moron you are quoting 2001 studies with 11 samples.
for a second time, do not lie

>No they don't. A recent study's results were 330 J + R1b samples out of 630 total Greek samples. You can't find anything like this in balkaners.
those were cypriot greeks, that you can see in pic related on the bottom

you're trolling at this point

>No, they aren't, and this is not debatable moron. Cypriots are much closer to each other than various continental Greek populations are to each other.
yes they are

>It is 100% true you idiot. Every study continues to show that Greek islanders such as the Dodecanese and Kos ones are identical with ancient Greeks and closer to them than any other Greek population. This is very relevant as it shows the ethnic Greek islanders and Anatolians you were b***hing about are fundamentally Greek in ancestry.
distances are not admixture even the closest population is at a certain distance, and on average they end up closer to many continental greeks than to cypriots anyway
i'm not here to talk about this with a brainlet

>Modern Greek Cypriots are modern Greeks.
i don't give a flying frick about your definition, i'm talking about modern greeks from the nation of greece

>Okay let's use ethnic Greek population from the modern country of Greece.
why do you refuse to have a discussion?
let's start again
the argument was that the modern nation of greece (not cyprus, not cappadocia) has significant slavic admixture, especially the continental greeks, that represent 95% of modern greeks, so they could be considered "average" modern greeks
now we were discussing whether this admixture that these continental greeks have is also reflected in their haplogroups, and it seems to be so considering that they have pretty big chunks of r1b, I and to a lesser extent even some of the E-v13

>moron you are quoting 2001 studies with 11 samples.
for a second time, do not lie

>No they don't. A recent study's results were 330 J + R1b samples out of 630 total Greek samples. You can't find anything like this in balkaners.
those were cypriot greeks, that you can see in pic related on the bottom

, and those studies also include (non cypriot) island greeks
what do pontic greeks have to do with the argument? yes pontic greeks probably don't have much I, so what? they don't have slavic admixture or very little, i never even raised the question

>yes they are
You have no argument. Cypriots are grouped as one population because they are homogenous while continent Greeks had to be grouped into several populations because they aren't homogenous.
>distances are not admixture
You are a complete moron. This obviously is pointing to their ancient Greek ancestry and shared location. It's definitely beyond a moron like you who has to cope like this.
>i don't give a flying frick about your definition,
That's not my definition, idiot. That's their definition and the consensus.
> i'm talking about modern greeks from the nation of greece
Okay let's use YOUR definition, moron. An ethnic Greek population from the modern country of Greece. There are 110 J + R1b samples out of 195 total Greek samples. You can't find anything like this in balkaners.

>stop making things up, they aren't grouped into different populations
Continental Greeks?
>the guy that made the wikipedia page simply decided to make a breakdown of where they took the samples from their greek average
moron, it's not that one guy, every genetics breakdown has to separate continental Greek into different populations because they are heterogeneous.
>this is not an argument for you
What the frick are you even saying?
>not true, most people mean greeks from greece when they says greeks
No, they mean ethnic Greeks you moron.
>as you can see in all the samples from the modern country of greece
I accept your concession.
>r1a and r1b are equivalent in number, with r1a being around 10-15%
Only the J + R1b combination forms a majority in Greek populations while no other combination can do that. No balkaner group has J + R1b as their most common haplogroup. They always have E + I2 as their most common haplogroup.
>with r1a being around 10-15%, I is pretty significant being 15-20%
Not all of the R1a subclades are Slavic associated. Most of the I subclades aren't unless you're claiming I1 is also Slavic?
>these alone make around 40%
In what world is 20-35% (27%) equal to 50%? Talking to a dog would be more fruitful than with idiot like you.

>not true, literally stop making stuff up, those study doesn't separate them
It's not just the study that separates them. Their autosomal DNA is distinct and has to be separated online as well.
>what you said isn't true,
It was and that's why you're seething.
>they mean greeks from greece
No they mean ethnic Greeks.
>i didn't concede anything, i always talked about greeks from greece
You conceded after I showed "greeks from greece" who were a J + R1b majority. That can't be found in balkaners.
>all those studies about modern greeks from the nation of greece I is literally higher than r1b
In most of them there is more R1b than I2. Once again not all of the R1a subclades are Slavic associated. Most of the I subclades aren't unless you're claiming I1 is also Slavic? In total 25% Slavic haplogroup contribution vs 50% Slavic autosomal contribution in Greece.
>10-15%+15-20% is 25-40%
How badly did you fail math in your life?
>the e-v13 may have been brought
Much like the R1a and I claims, this is mere cope. All of these haplogroups were present in Greece by the Roman period.

>this is not true at all, they all plot together,
How do they all plot together? Cypriots plot together as one population, but continental Greeks are divided into multiple populations.
>the only one that is seething is you
Wipe your tears.
>when people say greece
Except they said "Greek" which means ethnic Greek.
>you didn't show anything
I showed an ethnic Greek population from the modern country of Greece. That is the definition you begged me to use. There are 110 J + R1b samples out of 195 total Greek samples. Only the J + R1b combination forms a majority in Greek populations while no other combination can do that. You can't find anything like this in balkaners.
>10+15 equals 25, not 20
You believe 15 + 25 = 40-50 because you are a moron.
>nope
Not an argument.
>think whatever you want
You've accepted your 10th L of the hour and I've accepted your concession.

in most studies the I2 goes beyond 10%

>Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).
that haplogroup was reassigned in 2020 to e-m78

e-v13 didn't exist outside of europe, it developed in europe from E-L618 already in europe since the neolithic (EEF samples with e-l618 from both bulgaria and croatia)

also taforalt are all E-M78, taf009 was wrongly assigned e-l618 and has been reassigned as E-m78 in martiniano et al 2020

, martiniano literally took older samples from other studies and run them again
look taf009 is e-m78 now, hence you are wrong

go away nafri mulatto

Nope.

>Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).

Iberomaurusians weren't like modern Nafris.

who cares, balakners and greeks have 0% IBM admixture

balkaners, greeks and italians have 0% Iberomaurusian

that quote is not even talking about balkaners and it's largely talking about "middle eastern" not "north african" and actually models italians and balkaners as 0% north african, besides it's some shitty k4 model from 2012 using modern populations to model other modern populations

the actual mulattos are northwest africans
get the frick out of the thread nafri, you lost

that study literally models italians balkaners and greeks as 0% north african
you can't even read a basic study
besides it's some shitty old model in k=4 with modern populations (it's taking some very northern european as a european source considering even austrian according to that model are some 5-10% middle easterner)

you lost, there is 0 iberomaurusian in the balkans, greece and italy

>Read it again. They are modeled as 5-35% Afro-Levantine at K4. This fit perfectly with their mulatto phenotype and their mulatto male lineage.
no, YOU have to read it again, it's talking about joint "middle east and north african" but if you actually look at the study the north african is 0-1% in italy, the balkans and greece

besides as i said, it's some old shitty study in k=4 from 2013 that uses some very northern shifted european as a source of european ancestry considering even austrian come out as 10% middle easterners

italians, balkaners and greeks have 0 iberomaurusian ancestry, unlike you mulattos from north africa

>E-V13 is not IE.
not one said it was

last comment from me, mulatto nafri, you got destroyed

they have 0 turkish admixture
it's because it's a shitty k=4 model from 2013 that uses swedes, middle easterners, tunisians and sub saharan africans as sources of admixture

since austrian are more shifted south than swedes and since it has no other choices than to pick one of the other 3 admixtures, it picks the middle eastern

>Western Europeans do not have any recent ME ancestry, they infact plot far away from them unlike Southron mulattoes.
and yet the study you linked models them as part middle eastern
yes obviously they aren't, the study is using a 4 way admixture between modern tunisians, swedes, middle easterners and sub saharan africans
hence the calculator expresses this shift towards south that austrians have due to more anatolian farmer admixture and less steppe/whg by picking one of the other three component

also as you can see the study models balakners greeks and itlaians with 0-1% orange(tunisian)

>They are 5-35% Afro-Levantine ancestry and plot half-way between MENA and Europeans.
that's an amateur pca made by a nafri on the apricity to make the northwest african look closer than what they are

As you can see Southern Europeans are 5-35% Afro-Levantine. Many Southern Europeans also have Sub-Saharan ancestry.

>amateur pca made by a nafri on the apricity
Source?

You did not destroy anything. I proved that you are 5-35% Afro-Levantine 1-5% Sub-Saharan. Your meme calculator and your garbage PCA won't change that.