If natalism is argued to its conclusion, you will find that it makes no sense and antinatalists are correct. Life IS intrinsically worthless and shit but saying, "well kill urself then, lol." doesn't defeat the argument. It isn't that simple. You can't just dismiss such a complicated issue as if it were already a done deal.
Define worth
this
you don't argue with forces of nature
life just happens
it just is
just because you hate yourself and don't want to raise kids doesn't mean i won't raise little chads and stacys who will conquer the world
also this
wtf is natalism lol? I don't think anyone thinks everyone must have kids. that's up to individual choice.
anti-natalism is what doesn't make sense and overly simplifies complex issues. it argues that concieve a child morally you must ask for their consent to exist. literally asking for consent from something that does not exist yet...
anti-natalism assumes that the possibilities of suffering outway the good, when there's no way you can prove that. Most people would agree that the good in their life has outwieghed the suffering.
>anti-natalism assumes that the possibilities of suffering outway the good
Those people are seriously depressed. Fortunately only morons listen to their depressed mental gymnastics.
>Most people would agree that the good in their life has outwieghed the suffering.
[X] Doubt
Evolution explains that antinatalism is a rare and dysgenic mutation in thought process. It will be wiped out and if there are no antinatalists then antinatalism doesn’t have much weight. Alternatively people who suffer more are antinatalists, but this means nothing for the people who are actually happy, and it ignores the fact that one day maybe everyone will be happy
You said that about the gays and there’s still gays here.
There's no such thing as "being gay," this is a liberal talking point. Buggery is just a vice, like being an alcoholic, compulsive gambler, or drug addict.
There's no such thing as "being straight", this is a conservative Christian talking point. Sexuality is a broad and complex spectrum.
chuds eternally btfo
>Life IS intrinsically worthless
Wow when you say it like that it actually is an argument. Not.
>You can't just dismiss such a complicated issue
You can say that again.
But anti-natalism isn't actually that comlicated. It's a result of a very basic analysis. And the analysis is flawed to its core because it analyzes a benefit to a non-existent benefiter - aka "it's better for [non-existent] someone to not be born".
Refuted by open individualism
Life being worthless doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be lived
You may have had a gleaming privileged life but mine has been anything but. If someone would ask me if I wanted to be born knowing what I know now about my life id say no. But you don’t care about that or my suffering your drunk on your own opinions and beliefs and will defend them with deadly intention. You’ll shout pro life while leaving me in the muck to toil and suffer.
I would be happy if i had a small house with surrounding land where i can work myself off. But i don't have land. It's very expensive and also there are regualtory obstacles that wont allow me to put a building. Everything is so bureaocratic and overregulated. And i think all this stems from overpopulation.
yeah you're the only one that ever had things difficult..... butthole narcissist
I don't think he's saying that at all. People with good lives are the minority.
... People's lives are bad by their intelligence and environment. Both of which are heritable. Yet the antinatalist "philosophy" is most readily sucked up by moderately intelligent, moderately affluent first worlders. Especially atheist ones.
Do you not see how ridiculous antinatalism is?
Buddhism aligns with the core belief of antinatalism (life is intrinsically bad and not worth living) and it's been around for thousands of years. I don't think that a negative outlook on life is solely a modern first world phenomenon.
Don't buddhists believe that if born human you are given a chance to move towards something higher though?
proof?
>People with good lives are the minority.
More projection. Antinatalists really do think because their life is shit everyone else's life is and should also be shit. Very selfish and narcissistic.
If life isn’t worth living, you are depressed. You can reverse depression. Just don’t assume you are arriving to some ultimate truth here, your thoughts are coming from your emotional state most likely. There is a lot of shit in the world but if you don’t enjoy life, you can actually learn to love life. Not everyone is coping, there are people who wake up and they are excited to go about their day. Usually people are happier as kids. I’d suggest figuring out what the “successful” (this word probably makes you butthurt) have figured out. Just remember you are a moron and you don’t actually understand life as much as you think you do.
Keep coping. The only logical outcome of anti-natalism is suicide. If you don’t follow through, you’re either a hypocrite or a coward.
That's not true at all. The logical outcome of anti-natalism is omnicide. If you're so sure that existence is a net negative and you're an ethical utilitarian, the only way you can minimize suffering is to end all consciousness in the universe. Suicide is selfish in this context.
So go commit a mass shooting.
Life is shit, frick all of you and have a nice day for my pleasure you fricking idiot Christcucks
>Life IS intrinsically worthless
source?
Life is inherently worthless. It just is. Tell me what the worth of a average life is.
>Life is inherently worthless. It just is. Tell me what the worth of a average life is.
Life has inherent worth. It just has. Tell me how worthless an average life is
The mirror game.
Your values are inherently conservative. Have fun at the next trump rally.
>The mirror game.
Your values are inherently conservative. Have fun at the next trump rally.
you can fish, which automatically makes life worth living
Such a shallow and privileged answer.
>Such a shallow and privileged answer.
what the frick is shallow about enjoying a fricking hobby like fishing? and what is privileged about it? the fact that you have a shit life does not mean everybody has a shit life. and also, literally almost everyone has the possibility to fish, even some african tribal can.
There are people children who’ve done no wrong starving to death simply for being born in the wrong part of the world and here you are talking about how fishing gives life meaning
Pro life people are clowns and don’t mean a single word of anything they say
ok? then maybe we should do something about that to improve their lives rather than promoting a fringe first world moral proscription on them for their suffering?
>There are people children who’ve done no wrong starving to death simply for being born in the wrong part of the world
it is not my problem, and i do not care what happens to these people.
>and here you are talking about how fishing gives life meaning
it is called having a hobby
>Pro life people are clowns and don’t mean a single word of anything they say
i am not pro-life, i support abortion under certain circumstances, but i do not support ending the ENTIRE human species because some people suffer.
OK everyone, pack up your fishing gear. No fishing allowed.
Those starving people wished they had the opportunity to fish for some tasty dinner, let alone BAWWWpost on IQfy.
>Life IS intrinsically worthless
Blind assertion, rejected
>You can't just dismiss such a complicated issue as if it were already a done deal
Like you just did by asserting the worthlessness of human life with no argument?
What's shallow and privileged is a misanthropic firstworlder telling everyone below him that their life is worthless.
You are the one making the active claim that life has an intrinsic value. There is no such value present however; we have never been able to observe, measure, or define life’s "intrinsic value."
Rather, it is emotion that is the only observable intrinsic value.
No need to get your panties in a bunch over life’s absence of an intrinsic value; it’s not meant in the childish context you’re interpreting it in. Rather, it’s more about the fact that anybody can find subjective value in their life; and should try to do so without causing harm to others if they themselves do not wish to be harmed.
Time to smarten up, your IQ must be pitifully low if you think this is an attack on the worth of others’ lives.
About tree fiddy.
>antinatalists
Just perfectly healthy and normal people.
These people are observant
You claim to be observant but still are tricked by the streets painted gold.
Mentally ill people will always rationalize their worldview to be the correct one yes. But that doesn't mean it is.
And that’s the irony. All political people are mentally ill. Normal people don’t get involved with politics. If you’re involved in politics your opinions don’t matter.
some truth to it, but still ultimately completely wrong.
>Life IS intrinsically worthless
wrong
Time to back up your claims. We have never been able to observe, define, or measure this "intrinsic value" that life supposedly has. You are of pitifully low IQ as well it would seem.
you only post baseless claims without backing anything up
OP before you go shoot up a grocery store or a parade, I'd like to implore you to please go after a politician, CEO, or someone else making life harder for the rest of us. That is all thank you.
McConnell maintains residences in both Washington, DC and Louisville. Their Louisville home is in the high-end Highlands neighborhood. The home has an estimated value around $750,000, has three bedrooms, two and a half baths, and about 2,700 square feet of living space.
Or kill Lindsey Graham that would be funny
>He thinks the ziocon puppets are why everything sucks
I just want to know I no longer share this earth with those wretched creatures
Human nature is fricked there's no fixing that
Hell you'd agree to enslave everyone else if that meant you and yours got take care of
Wow and none of you can even refute what he said. Life is valuable... BECAUSE IT IS OKAY is not a valid argument. Attacking the proponents is not an argument either. "Just KYS" and "well you're le depressed incel" are not arguments, but ad hominem. God the state of this board. Pathetic.
funny how the refutation I gave
was completely ignored. not once did I say "just have a nice day lol"
You seem to have inadvertently supported their argument. How can you morally conceive a child if it cannot consent? The fact that they do not exist supports the point even more. They argue that you are essentially pulling something from nothing without considering how that something may react/live/view life/etc. There is no way to get to that point of accepting that lack of consent and what essentially boils down to the individual's ability to control the existence of another without throwing in the life is inherently good argument, which is extremely subjective. A boy born in western europe may hold those beliefs, a girl born in south sudan may not.
nice try at rewording the life is good because I said so "argument" that every natalist eventually falls back on. Which of course, has been utterly btfo by this small 2x2 grid.
No, the point is to talk about consent and what's a better outcome for a non-existent being is on its face absurd. Anti-natalism relies on absurd postulations like applying utiltarian ethics to people that don't exist yet. It's in the same vein as christians arguing for a zygote's rights because it has a soul. Does a baby have a soul before it conceived that I should ask consent from before giving it a fleshly body?
The better outcome for a non-existent child is irrelevant, because they do not exist and never will. The outcome is predetermined. The natalist believes for some reason (le life is good) that he has the privilege and right to decide for a being to exist. You support the argument again in your last line, who are you to give a "no soul zygote" an earthly, fleshly existence? Selfish cosmic hubris.
Yep, funny how NOONE can refute this. Almost like it’s objectively true....
Free will. If that new being doesn't like life they can easily end their own life.
>The outcome is predetermined
Got proof?
>natalist believes life is good
Because it is
>the right to decide to make new people
Two humans of the opposite sex having an attraction to each other is their right. Simple as.
>Got proof?
The whole of physics would suggest this.
>Because it is
Good is a subjective concept. Your life might be good; but if you have an average IQ or above you will realize that others may not enjoy theirs as much as you do yours.
>Two humans of the opposite sex having an attraction is their right.
Sure. Nobody said we can’t be attracted to each other.
>thinking only in pain and pleasure
haha, wow. you are a robot
99% of the world thinks this way. And again, ad hominem is NOT AN ARGUEMENT. Wah wah wah try again next time.
I agree with you but not everything is meant to be an argument. I ad hom people all the time as an end of its own.
>99% of the world thinks this way
Lol really? Got proof almost 9 billion people share your exact worldview? Sure you aren't just projecting your shitty life onto everyone else? I swear 90% of all antinatalists are just jealous they don't have the drive to better their life and are just angry at people being happy.
Every single thing you do or don’t do is based on that thing’s positive or negative effect on your subjective feelings. You cannot provide an exception to this; as emotion itself is value. The only intrinsic value we have ever been able to observe.
It’s really time to smarten up here. I wonder how low your IQ is as well.
Everything you do or don’t do is based on something’s positive/negative effect on your feelings. Emotion is the intrinsic value we operate by.
Time to smarten up here. This is embarrassing for you, even with your already pitifully low IQ.
>pain is bad
There is your first problem right here. Antinatalist all afraid of work and responsibility.
>stub toe
>ohhhhh woe is me this pain is so bad life is not worth living
Pathetic
this is bullshit on 2 counts
1: it is an overabstraction as
point out
2: pic related, even running with your abstraction you made a logical error
>The better outcome for a non-existent child is irrelevant
again another double standard, if the fate of a non-existent child is irrelevant this swings both ways, by this logic it does not matter whether or not you bring them into existgence
also this is another overabstraction, we impose our will on others all the time, we tax people to pay for hospitals, we stop our children running out into the middle of the road
I also note you are eager to reply to people telling you to kys but not replying to decent rebuttals like
you are all full of shit and get deboonked every time you spam your stupid antinatalist thread here
They don't care whether they are right or wrong. /r/antinatalism is part and parcel with the whole r*ddit defeatist nihilist soiboy psyop, the goal is just to make it pass as "intellectual" to a midwit.
Saved. Remember to post this in any antinatalism threads (:
You have yet to answer why you haven't killed yourself. If life is soooooo bad why keep existing?
>nobody has been able to prove my wrong gragh wrong cause I keep side stepping questions.
So...when you going to have a nice day?
Thank you someone get how nihilistic natalism becomes when it becomes central to ontology and mixed up with biological reductionism.
>You can't just dismiss such a complicated issue as if it were already a done deal.
Why not?
>Life IS intrinsically worthless and shit
This whole debate is subjective. I could tell you about how meaningful everything in life and how it outweighs the pain and you will say something like "muh children with bone cancer".
We could get into the deeper philosophy, how we male value judgments or moral codes, however you have 0 intention of doing so, you are some fatalist nihilist r*dditor who thinks trolling and shitposting is edgy. You won't debate this properly. Just watch. A reasonable person would progress beyond their usual arguments, rather than repeating old arguments you would say something along the lines of "this is the moral code and the metaphysical justification for it, why I believe pain matters but pleasure and meaning do not", but you won't, you won't actually think about what I am saying, just repeat old arguments.
>There is some pain, which is bad
>There is no pleasure, which is not bad
Shit evaluation. Some pain is not bad. No pleasure at all is bad.
>That's, like, your opinion, man
>Shit evaluation. Some pain is not bad.
Shit evaluation. That’s because said pain brings a greater eventual pleasure.
>No pleasure at all is bad
Only if you already exist as a sentient being experiencing suffering, and therefor possess the capacity to feel pleasure as well. You cannot deprive a non-existent being of pleasure.
It seems your IQ is just as low as the rest. Time to smarten up, if that’s even possible.
The word life has many meanings. Let’s take two of them into account. 1- The phenomenon that in our universe, as far as we know, only happens in planet earth. 2- an individual human existence.
First one has nor intrinsic meaning, happened because the conditions on earth allowed it to happen. Second one has a meaning for the individual human being and a different one for each and every other human being.
The main reason "have a nice day" is the most simple, effective rebuttal to antinatalism/pessimism/nihilism is because the mere fact that you didn't do it proves that you are living for at least something, and therefore, life isn't meaningless.
Third party here, but what if the reason he's living is simple survival instinct and not some hidden appreciation of his existence? Wouldn't that still allow not giving birth to be an ethical choice because you won't create people held hostage by their survival instinct?
I mean, fear of death could be what makes his existence so awful. No birth, no person to force into such dilemmas.
true, but purely for the sake of argument he can't argue he shouldn't kill himself without admitting that's why.
You’re not as smart as you think you are.
>dying is a hassle
The dude looks to be living in an apartment complex. All he has to do is open the window and lean out of it. If that is too much work he could just not eat or drink since "movement" is a hassel.
You aren't as deep as you think you are. Laziness is just a lame excuse when in reality they are still cowards. Too afraid to actually go through with their "philosophy"
>but dying's such a hassle
In other words, "I'm too much of a coward".
Think about it, which is more of a hassle living or dying? If living is the preferred choice then antinatalism is purely a performative philosophy, life isn't really as bad as you're saying it is.
as opposed to your magnificent intelligence? you're a homosexual using anime quotes to "argue". have a nice day
pure reason is sterializing
Antinatalists literally have no answer to "why don't you just have a nice day then?" Literally none. All they have are deflections and pretending it's a clichéd, worn-out counterargument that's been answered for millions of times, without actually reiterating such an answer.
If they had the balls to say "I lack the courage to kill myself" then at least I could respect their position
>After all, judgments and valuations of life, whether for or against, cannot be true: their only value lies in the fact that they are symptoms; they can be considered only as symptoms,—per se such judgments are nonsense. You must therefore endeavour by all means to reach out and try to grasp this astonishingly subtle axiom, that the value of life cannot be estimated. A living man cannot do so, because he is a contending party, or rather the very object in the dispute, and not a judge; nor can a dead man estimate it—for other reasons. For a philosopher to see a problem in the value of life, is almost an objection against him, a note of interrogation set against his wisdom—a lack of wisdom. What? Is it possible that all these great sages were not only decadents, but that they were not even wise?
>blah blah blah blah blah
you know whats dumb? thinking your way to extinction. higher lifeform MY ASS
Something that is beneficial to the virtues
>The world is already overpopulated and there are millions of orphans but I want to make a genetic lone minim-me because... because....
>I AM NOT A NARCISSIST SOCIOPATH SHUT THE FRICK UP, I AM TOTALLY CAPABLE OF RAISING A CHILD PROPERLY DESPITE MY GOLDFISH DYING BECAUSE... BECAUSE..... STFU LIFE IS ALL ABOUT REPRODUCING EVEN THOUGH I SPEND 10 HOURS A DAY ON MY HOBBIES NOT MAKING BABIES
breeders are pure evil.
The world being overpopulated is not going to be my kids problem, they'll be white middle class westerners like me. That's for the Africans to worry about.
>The world is already overpopulated
No it isn't lol
>continues to seethe with a bunch of projection.
The mind of the antinatalist. So what exactly makes like so terrible? Specifically in your life, why do you hate life?
>Life IS intrinsically worthless
ok AND? You don’t need some sky daddy to validate being happy. And the fact that you morons not want to die shows that you do derive some joy or desire to live.
>Life IS intrinsically worthless
What makes you say so?