>Our paper on ancient DNA from likely combatants from both the 480BC and 409BC Battles of Himera (and other ancients from Sicily)
>There are many interesting findings, but I will highlight a few: First, many of the 5th c. BC Greek combatants were genetically very similar to Bronze Age Mycenaean Greeks (a thousand years earlier).
>Thus, we may conclude that the Ionian and Dorian ethnē -from which the Sicilian Himerans were drawn, according to historical sources- did not represent the migration of a genetically dissimilar population into post-Mycenaean Greece.
>And at least many of them did not admix with pre-Greek Sicilians when they established their settlements on the island and for the 2-3 centuries that elapsed between the foundation of Himera and the 5th c. BC
>The general population of Himera (non-battle participants) did include people with pre-Greek heritage, similar to- or admixed with- the Sicani which preceded the Hellenization of the island. Yet, such people do not appear among the likely citizen-soldier battle combatants.
>Surprisingly, men of diverse genetic background (neither Greek nor Sicanian) were buried in mass graves in the city's West Necropolis: these men were drawn from the east Baltic, the Eurasian steppe, the Balkans, and the Caucasus.
>These fallen soldiers may have been mercenaries who participated during the 480BC Battle of Himera, died far from home, and were buried after the battle by the Himerans, unlike many of the local Greek soldiers who would have been buried in individual graves by their families.
>If these were indeed mercenaries, they were too few and too foreign to be remembered and to attract the attention of historians who wrote about the battle, with the fullest account given by Diodorus Siculus centuries after the battles, and long after the demise of Himera in 409BC
 Ape Out Shirt $21.68 |
 UFOs Are A Psyop Shirt $21.68 |
Ape Out Shirt $21.68 |
Baltic mercenaries in a Greek army in Sicily is one hell of a cool thing to find
https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2205272119
>multiracial army
No wonder Nafris destroyed them so easily.
Huh? The Greeks won that war, and Carthaginians had a mega multiracial army too according to Herodotus
The Greeks won the first battle of Himera, but the Carthaginians won the second battle of Himera. Herodotus was clearly projecting when he claimed that the army of Carthage was multiracial.
The Greeks didn't have the huge army in the second battle. Second battle was only locals fighting which may explain why they lost.
>multiracial
are you moronic? they were all of the same race, balkanoids or greeks
how is that even possible ? east baltic folks in Vth century sicily ?? Maybe central euros were actually more northern shifted back in the day and therefore plot with modern balts
North of the Carpathians probably yes, but I imagine this is an actual Balt as qpadm should be picking up the drift characteristic of IA and BA Balts.
There were no Balts in central Europe in the iron age. These guys came directly from the Baltic region. You can tell by their haplogroups too.
There were Lithuanian like individuals with R1b buried around Tollense.
Maybe a highly WHG group of Central Euros
I thought the BS drift Tollense were I2?
Regardless I think it's likely at this point that Lusatian/Pomeranian culture areas were balto-slavic (or para-BS).
I dont think being extremely WHG (30-45%) makes them Baltic.
They could be unrelated to Balts, but I do agree it does seem like they are Baltic due to the uniqueness of high WHG in North Europe.
proper greeks mixed with local sicilians and were originally mycenean-like, paper implies these warriors could be dorians from syracuse. Non greeks were in mass graves
There are Georgian and Persian mercenaries in this Greek army in Sicily.
There's a guy with a Botai clade of haplogroup N*
That's a Scythian mercenary. I think he clusters with modern Central Asians.
I did not think Greeks would be this diverse
Also Italy hosted pretty much every race known to man even in the B.C.
They're all Caucasoids.
No
> Two (I10944/W0461 and I10947/W1774; Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4) fall with individuals from IA nomadic contexts in the Eurasian Steppe and carry in the ADMIXTURE analysis genetic components maximized in Han and Karitiana (Native Americans) that characterize most IA Steppe nomads (light green and purple, respectively, in SI Appendix, Fig. S2B). In qpAdm, their ancestry is consistent, with around 85–89% deriving from IA Central steppe nomads and 11–15% from an Aegean-like source, an admixture that plausibly could have taken place among the genetically diverse populations of the Steppe (68, 69). Their mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups suggest east Eurasian genetic roots: A6a, found so far only in modern-day China (70, 71), and N1a1a1a, restricted to Russia, Kazakhstan, and Mongolia (72).
Nope. Those guys are about 90% West Eurasian and definitely had a Caucasoid phenotype.
>genetic components maximized in Han and Karitiana
The Han Chinese are West Eurasian?
They're close to Karitiana because South American natives have 41% ANE ancestry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karitiana
You didn't take a look at the graphs, moron? Han is their smallest component and less than any of their West Eurasian components. You could've saved yourself the humiliation by reading the graphs correctly.
Scythians have some WSHG and possibly other East Asian ancestry.
Check the chart, they arent Han, they arent even Central Asian.
They are eastern admixed individuals probably of Scythian origin and Caucasoid in apperance.
They do not have 41% ANE.
>and Caucasoid in apperance
This is how Scythians looked like
look at the admixture chart in the OP group 4 are the steppe nomads, they score something like 10% han, so obviously they are west eurasians, han chinese wouldn't even fit in this pca
Scythians like that have as much east asian ancestry as Finns or Turkish Anatolians. They also looked like finns as contemporary sources say Scythians were blonde. Keanu Reaves is 50% East Asian and he still has caucasoid features, so these Scythians would be just white looking by any reasonable standard
>Caucasoid
Stop using that outdated term, it's West Eurasian now.
Nazi
>Also Italy hosted pretty much every race known to man even in the B.C.
Italians are like that gigamutt American meme except they're not new worlders. It's amazing how they have DNA from literally every corner of the world.
That's because Rome was the melting pot of antiquity. It was like New York.
, men of diverse genetic background (neither Greek nor Sicanian) were buried in mass graves in the city's West Necropolis: these men were drawn from the east Baltic, the Eurasian steppe, the Balkans, and the Caucasus.
Holy kino...
Gonna dig into this paper later when I have some time.
>Among the soldiers of the 409 BCE battle, one (I17884/W4666) is consistent with descending solely from Greece_LBA. The other 4 are estimated to derive additional 18-64% of their ancestry from
Sicily_LBA or Sicily_IA. The results demonstrate a local Sicilian contribution to the ancestry of the majority of Aegean-related soldiers fighting at Himera, suggesting that their ancestors inhabited Sicily for some generations.
That must’ve been the Carthaginian army, not the Greek one
Herodotus’ histories:
There is, however, another story told by the Sicilians: even though he was to be under Lacedaemonian authority, Gelon would still have aided the Greeks had it not been for Terillus son of Crinippus, the tyrant of Himera. This man, who had been expelled from Himera by Theron son of Aenesidemus, sovereign ruler of Acragas, at this very time brought against Gelon three hundred thousand Phoenicians, Libyans, Iberians, Ligyes, Elisyci, Sardinians, and Cyrnians,1 led by Amilcas son of Annon, the king of the Carchedonians.
Good point
it's fricking over
It's ogre.
Medbros, not like this...
>Medbros, not like this...
Still lighter than steppoids
i see a couple of blondes and a redhead
There are 2 blondes and a redhead.
we are so back
>all that brown hair
i thought majority of greeks were black-haired?
overwhelming majority has dark brown hair, another LARP theory humiliated
I mean, even if they were all blond and blue eyed it wouldn't change their genetics. Chalcolithic Levantines had a high frequency of blue eyes and they were arabs
>Chalcolithic Levantines had a high frequency of blue eyes
Huh?
>all intermediate skinned
>almost all brown haired
lol why were balts so swarthy compared to scandis?
the balts are I10943 and I10949
WHG BVLL genes. similar to how some Anglos and Germans are dark to black.
the balts are only group 3 so one blonde and blue eyed and one brown haired and eyed, stop being brainlets
>t. swarthy balt
Sicili IA are Siccani.
Himera 1 are Greek soldiers.
Himera 2-5 mercenaries
Himera 409 BC are Greek soldiers
Himera Civilians are civilians
East Necropolis is a civilian
One Siccani has blue eyes and blond hair, genetically she's Mediterranean.
Plenty of Greek soldiers have light hair. One is red-haired (J2a), another blond (G2a).
One of these east baltic dudes apparently belongs to the Germanic I2 clade I-L233 (the other one is R-Z280>Y35* I think). Very interesting.
Either the guys who conducted the studies are trolls or incredibly incompetent and contaminanted the samples, or we have to re-write history books
Most of yDNA is G and R1b.
the proper greek warrior are 409 BCE. J2a>r1b=T1=L
Himera civilians descended from Greek men marrying local women show R1b, G and L.
Not him, but that's completely wrong. The Greek settler haplos are mostly J2 here.
The Himara civilians show no J2a, only R1b, G and L.
The Himera civilians are locals. The Greek settlers on the other hand are J2.
>I20163/W1838 appears dis-tinct, with models of ancestry with the highest P values (P>0.1)involving a contribution of 38–55% of his ancestry from a local Sicilian MBA, LBA, or IA source and around 45–62% from a group closely related to Punic individuals from Sardinia that harbor North African ancestry or alternatively around 87.6±3.1%Sicily_IA ancestry with 12.4±3.1% ancestry deriving from a group represented by genetic outlier from Chalcolithic Sardinia carrying fully North African ancestry
>Punic
KeK
We have samples from Punic Tunisians and they were the product of Greek-Italic males who raped some native North African Guanche like females. 7 of the samples are Greek-Italic, 4 are mutts from Greek-Italic men and Nafri women, and 1 is a pure Nafri woman. All the males have Greek-Italic paternal lineages like J2a1 and R1b.
Those samples mostly include products of "Greek-Italic" males who raped Iberian women.
We have actual Phoenician elites samples from the Levant and they carry haplogroup E. The Kerkouane samples were buck broken Greek slaves.
>S10769.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA E1b
>S10770.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA E1b
>The two Megiddo individuals with the next lowest Neolithic Levant component (I10769 and I10770, brothers) were found near the monumental tomb that was likely related to the palace at Megiddo, raising the possibility that they might be associated with the ruling caste.
>Level H-15, Late Bronze I. The sampled burial, with two individuals (I10769 and I10770), was found above the monumental tomb of Level H-16; those who dug it were probably aware of this association.
IQfy Anonymous Sun 28 Aug 2022 23:11:33 No.13871423 ViewReport
>Phoenician
Those are early Canaanites who were replaced by israeli tribes and existed before the Phoenician expansion anyway.
>raising the possibility
Just a guess and these guys were poor.
The study is clear. They Phoenician nobility was E.
>israeli tribes
Jews are European larpers who adopted the language of E1b1b Samaritan Cohanim. They have no genetic connection to the Levant.
The study did not claim these Canaanite samples were nobility. The study says associated as in these E guys were royal slaves of the rich guys.
>modern greeks dominated by e-v13
a bunch of rapebabies like all meds
E-V13 is white Caucasian Balkanite.
But not ancient greek
It’s northern Greek (Macedonian, epirote, Dorian).
Not even
Northern Ancient Hellenes, Dorian aristocrats = E-V13, R1b, J2b(theoretical)
Hellenic Islanders and non Dorian natives = R1b, G, L
J2a = Anatolian slave men
Only G, J2 and R-Z2103 has been found in Greeks. E-V13 was never associated with Greeks, it was spread by Thracians.
It's not
It's found in thracians and not greeks
Unless you are saying macedonians were thracians...
thracians were mostly mycenaean-like
>Unless you are saying macedonians were thracians...
They were
Where are they in classical greece
Dorians are J2 here.
Dorians aren’t J2a, but J2b most likely since they came from the north and dorians are northern balkanites.
Dorians weren't in the north tho
none of the greeks are E-v13 here, the Dorian 409 BCE soldiers plot over maltese
Absence if evidence isn’t the evidence of absence. The Dorian elite were E-V13, the Dorians migrated from the North, their homeland is the balkans. They were also J2b-l283 and R1b, these correspond with Bronze Age Croatian samples.
Literally no genetic evidence of this. This paper and the biomuse preview show dorians were the same as other greeks, time to stop coping
You haven't read the ancients? They said the Dorians were Achaeans from Dorida, a place right across Achaea. That's why they called it "return of the Heracleids". Heracles' birthplace is Peloponnese
This literally makes zero sense, dumbest post I ever read.
>Coping rapebaby
The original E-V13 were Thracians from Bulgaria. Plenty of E-V13 among them.
Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
0.04965869 French_Corsica
0.04976901 Italian_Lazio
0.05053609 Italian_Apulia
0.05248833 Italian_Umbria
0.05257424 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05268514 Italian_Basilicata
0.05297650 Italian_Campania
0.05307707 Italian_Molise
0.05329884 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05332408 Italian_Marche
0.05448981 Sicilian_East
0.05512665 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05513234 Italian_Calabria
0.05556024 Italian_Tuscany
0.05566664 Greek_Corinthia
0.05590934 Greek_Argolis
0.05617102 Greek_Izmir
0.05639286 Greek_Laconia
0.05728583 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05754860 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.05789957 Greek_Arcadia
0.05810424 Greek_Achaea
0.05811970 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.05851859 Greek_Messenia
0.05857884 Greek_Elis
It clearly says that non Greek mercenaries like these were found buried in massgraves
>still trusting archeogenetic research in 2022, it's only getting worse
Elaborate.
What's the point of that grayed out PCA of the modern samples if you can't even tell which group is what? Is there some legend that shows what the modern samples are? How do the ancient ones plot against modern populations?
They tend to use similar PCAs again and again, so after a while you just know where modern populations are plotted.
Looks like the usual one. I think they added some modern North African samples, though.
Incredible.
I wonder if the Baltic guys were friends.
I expected at least one pure Levantine or Nafri to show up… but zero, we got fricking Caucasus, Baltic and Asians instea
What - the - actual - frick
Nafri ancestry is present, but not in the Greeks. It's in the locals.
Yeah but very little , and the locals were Greek
Considering the mutt army was led by the king of Carthage and had Phoenicians, Nafris and Iberians according to Herodotus, I expected very different results
The locals are not Greek. They are descended from earlier local populations before being conquered and assimilated by the J2 Greeks.
The (slightly) african admixed sample is from Himera , a Greek colony
Authors already stated the Himera slaves are locals. Find a new cope.
Those aren’t slaves, cope and cry more, moron
moron cope.
Slit You throat worm
Dilate troony.
Why are you speaking to yourself, moron?
moron cope.
Yes that What your moronic ass is doing
that's not the punic army you dumb frick but the opposite side
one sample from himera has a bit of nafri admixture, the one that plots kinda with moroccan israelites (scores a bit of ju_hoan_north in the admixture model that OP posted)
the IA population, the sicani don't score any in OP pic, they seem to be sardinian like, only some of the himera samples plot with them, a lot plot with greeks, the outlier with some nafri admixture seems more like a greek shifted towards nafris
There's only one single Himera sample that plots anywhere near Greeks. The rest are all distant because they are a mutt mix of locals, Nafris, and Italians.
>Nafris
Only one and barely
one has a bit of nafri admixture, but it doesn't look like a sicani with a bit of nafri admixture more like a greek with a bit of nafri admixture, three seem to be similar to sicanis, 2 are similar to greeks, the other ones seem to have some continental european admixture, maybe italic
It could be a Sicani with Punic admixture not real Nafri.
>Nordics were more common in Ancient Greece than MENAmulatto
lel
there is no nordic here but there is some kind of persian or something
there are 2 caucasus not persians, 2 balts, and 2 western steppe (scythian-like individuals), 2 illyrians(north italian-like), and one that looks like some kind of modern balkaner, probably a mutt
only one of them is a real caucasus sample the other is clustering closer to persians or armenians than the caucasus pops
Nafri animals on suicide watch
what kind of idiot are you ? Nafris were literally the ennemies of such people but despite this one of the sample has a decent amount of north african ancestry
the amount of nafri admixture in that sample is pretty little
depends how you view it
>45–62% from a group closely related to Punic individuals from Sardinia that harbor North African ancestry
that punic sample isn't fully north african, if you scroll down a bit they model it with the sardinian outlier that plots with modern northwest africans and it scores 12% admixture from it
it's probably slightly more since the sample they used to compare is similar to modern saharawis if his nafri ancestor was guanche-like and like coastal berbers then he would have more NA ancestry
>it's probably slightly more since the sample they used to compare is similar to modern saharawis if his nafri ancestor was guanche-like and like coastal berbers then he would have more NA ancestry
yes, and the punic samples used on the other hand would inflate the punic admixture since, as you can see in OPs pca, it's not using just the 5 more nafri admixed villamar but also the other 3 with very little north african admixture
indeed
Pure Levantines and Nafris only appear much later in the imperial period as slaves working in mines. But there are like 15 mutt samples born from Italic men and Celtic, Caucasian, Levantine and Nafri slave women on the mainland Italy during the Iron Age/Republican period.
And now history has to be re-written.
The problem is that carbon dating is unreliable science. There’s no proof that these dead died in 480 bc and 409 bc. It’s more likely these samples date to 1000 years ago in the early medieval era.
Oh boy here we go
Uh-oh…
>ethnē
Anthony Smith chads ww@?
>men of diverse genetic background (neither Greek nor Sicanian) were buried in mass graves in the city's West Necropolis: these men were drawn from the east Baltic, the Eurasian steppe, the Balkans, and the Caucasus.
Lmao northoids ending up in mass graves
This is cool I hope we get more DNA from ancient battles
i assume the N and I2a are the ones on top of Russian and Finnish.
Yep.
The N is a scythian or other steppe person
Modern Sicilians seem to be a mix of these Caucasus-like guys and the Himera cluster.
Medbros...I don't feel so good...
Why?
Tell me that hot pale baltic guys at least once fricked juicy greek pussy ....
Carthage seem to have prevented any possibility of that by killing them.
Its just soo over
Isnt it?
Carthage lost at Himera
Can someone find out if the I2 is I2a-din and if the three R1a men are associated with the Slav R1a, the Germanic R1a or the central Asian R1a. Thanks.
>I2 is I2a-din
it's not
>R1a
it's the central asian iranic kind
So I guess Slavs were still stuck in their pripyat homeland until more evidence is found.
Slavs didn't leave their homeland until the Huns forced them to.
the I2 is "Germanic" but comes from a balt
the balto-slavic z283 is a balt
one of the z94 is a "caucasian", the other is a steppe iranic iirc
The I2 belongs to the Germanic I2 clade I-L233 but this guy is autosomally Baltic.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L233/
and the R1a is Baltic as well specifically Z280>CTS1211>Y35
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/
pro-tip, Balts are Goths who got assimilated.
I don't think east germanics existed in the 6th BCE let alone goths who formed much later
Albanians on suicide watch
>no V-13
Oh no no “greek” bros we are really rapebabies like fellow shitalians after all
The Dorian aristocracy was albanian-like
How do we know some of the samples are scythian?
minor WSHG/East Asian ancestry relative to more MLBA Steppe
BMAC ancestry
Do theyl have bmac ancestry?
Yeah
No they don't. Not all CHG is BMAC
they have a northern european profile with a bit of asian ancestry, they plot with ancient western steppe nomads from the iron age
>northern european profile
in that case it's a sarmatian/western scythian. scythians proper ranged from 30 to 50% BMAC+asian ancestry
>AYOOOO WE WUZ DIODORUS SICULUS N SHIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET
It's hilarious how Nords claimed the Greeks and we found Balto-Finns there instead and so far not a single Nord.
A fricking N in Sicily, lol.
imagine how apocalyptic the mass rape and genocide on i2 and i1 done by pretty much everyone was for this to be the case
>not a single E-V13 in Greek samples
It's over Greek bros...
E-V13 = Dorian haplo
J2b = Dorian haplo
R1b = Dorian haplo
J2a, L, T, G2 = indigenous Greek haplo
>no slavs
> no Germanic
>eastern iranic from Central asia
>some random Baltic soldier
>some chruka from the caucasus
Who was the whitest looking soldier?
Northeast Europe R1a and Eurasian steppe N. Those are the pale samples.
The Baltic one has blue eyes and blond hair.
Baltic one is dark haired and brown eyed.
There are two Baltic ones. I10943 and I10949 (Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3)
Well one of them is dark-featured and the other is light-featured. Most of the light-featured ones are Meds.
How white was the Scythian sample?
Clusters with modern day Central Asians, like other Scythian samples.
what specific central Asians?
They cluster with Iron Age Central Asians, not with modern ones. IA Central Asian (like Sarmarians from West Kazakhstan) would be closer to modern Russian population from the Volga region - Turkic and Uralic.
But in reality they aren't closely related to anyone today. The distances are big and depending how much BMAC or Siberian ancestry they have they are closer either to Tajiks or to Turks/Uralics from the Volga region (people like Udmurts, Chuvash or Mari).
Most of the samples are 60-80% Sintashta and no one there is quite like that.
The N is a Scythian sample. It's Himera 4 - brown hair, dark shade, brown eyes. One was pale, the other intermediate.
This is a large distance, though. And you can see Komi and Tatars showing up between Tajiks. They pretty much occupy the empty space between Volga people and Tajiks on PCA.
Like here:
The two red squares below Chuvash, between Finns and Caucasians.
>The two red squares below Chuvash, between Finns and Caucasians.
That's where Tajiks would show up. More steppe-rich and less Asian-rich than Chuvash.
Those are not ethnic tajiks but pamiri, who speaks a variation of the scythian language, "rushan" is a pamiri language.
All of the Tajik samples cluster together.
Most of them are pamiri though, they don't actually provide a persian tajik sample in vahaduo, but normal tajiks from tajikistan usually cluster between uzbeks and turkmen.
Can you show an example of that? None of the samples available do that.
Here, persian tajiks who are the majority are noticbly different from the pamiri in terms of genetics
Where is that sample? I know these ones are Persian Tajiks.
Distance to: Tajik_Badakshan
0.01648248 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.02014652 Tajik_Shugnan
0.02471087 Sarikoli_China
0.02623298 Tajik_Kulob
0.02748182 Tajik_Rushan
0.03495036 Pashtun_North_Afghanistan
0.03810268 Tajik_Ayni
0.03842861 Tajik_Hisor
0.05022542 Kho_Singanali
0.05352601 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.05483174 Uthmankhel
0.05668188 Tarkalani
This one has too much East Asian ancestry. That's clearly not how the average Tajik looks like.
The average tajiks is indistinguishable froma Uzbek or a turkmen for the most part.
No, Tajiks would show up closer to Caucasians.
Tajiks plot halfway between Caucasians like Georgians and Finns.
The two Eurasian steppe samples would cluster closely to the Sarmatians. The samples are from Western Kazakhstan, Pontic Caspian steppe and Urals. G25 PCA looks similar to all those official PCAs.
Are the Balts steppe-shifted or Uralic-shifted?
Moderns? Uralic-shifted.
No these ones. They don't cluster with Latvians and definitely not with BA Balts. One of them might possibly be Lithuanian-like but the other one has a clear northeastern pull.
>in the G25 they're almost identical to modern Lithuanians, close to Belarusians. But they seem to have a little bit more of the Steppe ancestry.
One has a Slavic Y-DNA.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/
I'd rather see the coordinates though there's always a ton of schizos out there making up stuff
what makes a y-dna "Slavic"? if anything slavs carry haplogroups that are intrusive
Having one of the haplogroups that was common with proto-Slavs when they expanded and spread their language. R1a-M458, I2-Y-3120, R-M558.
If the mutation isn't found anywhere else before that, sure
But slavshits have the propensity of claiming any rapeblood in their veins as "native" so I'm not buying it
The 3 haplos I mentioned were proto-Slavic, no others. Slavs also have yDNA from some other sources, so what?
>The 3 haplos I mentioned were proto-Slavic
sure thing Pidorjz
>time of expansion dates to the proto-Slavic expansion
>found in early Slavs
>have a modern Slavic distribution
If you would like to object you can try coming up with something factual.
>haplogroup that was raped into slavs is associated with them
this doesn't mean it's native dumbfrick. Slavs have zero native haplogroups, even the r1a comes from scythian elites who bred polish pussy
Listen you idiot homosexual, Scythians had R1a-Z93 and Slavs have none of that. R1a-M458, I2-Y-3120, R-M558 are all central european in origin and expanded with Slavs, that's not even up for debate. If anything the Scythian R1a-Z93 became slaves or went extinct because of Slavs.
>finally a paper with Greek warriors
>expect East Med shift
>no shift, instead there's a bunch of Slavs, Caucasians and steppe Black folk in Iron Age Sicily
>all the Greeks look like a mix of Myceneans and Iron Age Sicilians
Of course not. Mycenaeans are the "East Med shift", moron.
Not in modern day Sicilians. East Med is a misnomer anyway. The Levantine shift is much stronger in Sicilians than Greeks except for some islanders and it's not just due to Slavs although that is a part of it.
There is no "East Med shift", moron. Ancient DNA keeps proving the Ancient Greeks were "East Med" to begin with and didn't reach their current position until admixture with Slavs and other European populations.
You're talking out of your ass as usual. Are Libyan israelites similar to ancient Greeks?
You're embarrassing yourself again, moron. Ancient Greeks are more "East Med shifted" than modern Greeks. It is not up for debate.
I'm talking about Sicilians not Greeks. Romans imported more Levantines to Sicily. Greece was subject to Anatolian influence primarily.
There's a big difference between even Campania and Sicily.
You keep mentioing Greeks. If you want to talk about Levantines say Levantine. Easy concept you should theoretically be able to understand.
Beacause this moron thinks Sicilians became similar to Libyan israelites because of fricking Mycenaeans. It's clearly not the case.
What the frick are you b***hing about, moron? Who mentioned "Libyan israelite" or Sicilians became similar to them? This topic is about Greeks.
This topic is also about Greeks in Sicily. They weren't like modern day Sicilians. Romans imported Levantines and later on some Germanic and French influence made them a tiny bit more European. East Med shift is not synonymous with Mycenaean and it should be called Levantine shift to clear up confusion.
Correct
So your focus is on modern Sicilians instead of the Greek samples. How much of this Levantine shift are you claiming?
Target: Sicilian_East
Distance: 0.7159% / 0.00715859 | R5P
34.0 Karaite_Egypt
30.4 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
14.0 Spanish_Asturias
11.4 Czech
10.2 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
Target: Sicilian_West
Distance: 0.6601% / 0.00660087 | R5P
35.0 Tunisian_Jew
24.2 Basque_French
15.4 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
14.6 Iranian_Jew
10.8 Ukrainian_Sumy
These are terrible sources. Use ancient samples, not modern.
Nah, Meds always claim every ancient Levantine sample as European even if it's close to Druze and Samaritans.
That's still pretty much accurate.
It's not even slightly accurate with the sources used.
It's accurate as far as the Levantine shift goes. Sicilians are 35-50% Levantine.
Doubtful, these meme shift is not in line with Sicilian Y DNA
Right...just like their respective ancient populations
>Model with israelites and ancient samples.
They are about a quarter Phoenician, but then it was almost entirely female mediated.
Target: Sicilian_West
Distance: 1.4608% / 0.01460767
37.4 ITA_Daunian
22.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
19.0 DEU_MA_ACD_Ostrogothic
14.6 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
6.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
Target: Sicilian_East
Distance: 1.3213% / 0.01321349
26.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
24.0 ITA_Daunian
17.8 DEU_MA_ACD_Ostrogothic
15.6 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
13.4 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
2.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
Canary Islands guanches were Berbers -__-''
Using Mugla instead of Mycenaean isn't correct
>Da Levantine shift from females.
Even this study from 2017 found out that modern Siciians have 36% of female mediated Levantine ancestry vs just 11% from males based on haplogroup frequency. And Sicilians were actually colonized by Phoenicians at some point, so expect to found actual Levantines in the western part of the island. Like 90% of Sicilian paternal lineages are Balkan-Greek and NW European (63% Balkan and 26% North Western European respectively).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4005757/bin/pone.0096074.s003.tif
North African ancestry is close to zero, but only because Punics were the rapebaby of Sicilian males and Gaunche females.
You're claiming Sicilians are 50% Levantine?
I’m waiting for one Levantine (1) Levantine like sample in the West, so far zero have turned up, the Phoenicians in Iberia, Sardinia and Africa are either African like or Greek like
All the East Med shift in Italian came from Imperial Era slaves and merchants from Anatolia and Syria , zero admixture before that period
They are like 6-7 samples and most of them have some kind of Levantine input.
Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
Distance: 3.5562% / 0.03556244
56.8 ITA_Sardinia_IA
24.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
18.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
Target: Iberia_Ibiza_Punic:MS10614
Distance: 3.7026% / 0.03702591
63.6 ITA_Sardinia_IA
15.4 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
14.0 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
7.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
Distance: 3.1863% / 0.03186334
50.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
18.4 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
12.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
9.8 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
9.0 ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic
Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:MSR002
Distance: 3.2148% / 0.03214758
28.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
24.2 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
23.6 ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic
21.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
3.0 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
Barely, I expected 100% Levantine and we got some weird unholy mixes that make no sense historically
They are clearly Phoenician admixed, one of the guys even carried the Semitic J1-P58 haplo. Expect Western Punic Sicilians to be similar.
No, I expect them to be 100% Levantine not 20-10% like this
It doesn't matter what you expect. They are clearly admixed and one of them even had the Semitic haplo.
WHich makes no sense unless you admit the elite were heavily stepe like
Where do you see steppe ancestry?
Steppe shift explains why they're mostly Greek / North Italian like
They arent. Like clockwork, Italians lie.
Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic
Distance: 1.4946% / 0.01494581 | R3P
53.6 Sardinian
28.2 Tunisian_Jew
18.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
Tunisians israelites have loads of steppe
Sure thing bud
Model them with Basque or North Italian and you'll have a 100% fit
why do you keep using tunisian israelites?
you're aware that they are shepardic/ashkenazi with a bit of nafri admixture?, they don't represent levantines due to being half european like shepardic and ashkenazis, they don't represent nafris due to having 5% nafri admixture, 10% at best
Pre-carthaginian sardinians (monte sirai for example) were already phoenician admixed so how do you know these later punic results aren't north africans mixing with the local sardo-phoenician mutts ?
Those weren't Sardinians, they weren't "Phoenician" either, genetically they were Central Italian-like AKA Etruscans
If an Italian speaks it lies
haha wtf did I just read ...baka why are italian posters so toxic
Sicilians are 50% North African and it is almost entirely male-mediated. True Romance was pretty accurate.
>Our distal modeling of modern Sicilians requires not only the two eastern ancestry sources that we have shown were present by the Bronze Age—10.0 ± 2.6% Yamnaya_Samara and 19.9 ± 1.4% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic— but also a predominant component of North African ancestry (46.9 ± 5.6% Morocco_LN) (Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 14). These results are consistent with most of the North African-related ancestry having come into Sicily in the Iron Age and afterward, a scenario that is further supported by our observation that modern Sicilians form a clade with Ibiza_Phoenician (p=0.060) and the three most recent Sardinian individuals in our time series (Supplementary Materials). Although these results are consistent in principle with a nearly complete ancestry turnover on the island since the Bronze Age.
Steppe shift explains while they're mostly Greek / North Italian like
Ignore the NAFRIanimal.
>Sicilians are 50% North African and it is almost entirely male-mediated
Holy frick. Marocco LN didn't even exist in the Bronze/Iron Age and Sicilians are 2-6% Guanche like. E1b was raped into Europeans by these Italian-like Thracians.
Unironically I20163 the only Nafri admixed individual among these Iron Age Sicilians, carry the paternal indoEuropean haplogroup
R-M269. NAFRIanimals are the most buck broken race in the world.
>Europeans raped a North African haplogroup into Europeans
t. errone
>E1b
>North Africans
KeK
This the best forced meme around by far.
50% Morocco_LN 🙂
9% E in Poland is bullshit. Show one study saying so.
Poles have ~25% Turkish-like admixture so it probably comes from there
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209567/
East Euro israelites are overrepresented on YFULL. That being said, Southwestern Poland is indeed 7-8% E1b.
>50% Morocco_LN
shit model, actual taforalt in sicilians is extremely little
> and it is almost entirely male-mediated.
did you take a look at the picture you posted? sicilians have only some 10% E, and almost all not berber derived, but balkanite derived
actual study about haplogroups in italy, E is at 10%, almost all E-v13 in sicily
why do you keep getting baited with this morocco_ln argument even in light of this new paper?
>carry the paternal indoEuropean haplogroup
>R-M269.
are you at least aware north africa went through a founder effect with E-m81? Why do you think the isolated guanches had so many r1b ?
R1b probably spread in NA during the bronze age so there is no reason to believe it didn't exist in NA prior to the expansion of E-m81
Cope, mulatto.
European haplogroups like R1b were raped into you by Greek-Italian males who ruled Carthage.
kerkouane was a little city of 1.2k inhabitants filled with sicilian settlers
>Examination of the burial methods and funerary furniture would make it possible to recognize certain foreign elements, notably Greeks, within the population of Kerkouane-Tamezrat, [...] During the last stage, the city seems to have maintained close links with Greek Sicily, links that were to be facilitated by some Punic cities of the big island and notably by Mozia. [...] In any case, the relationship between Kerkouane and Greek Sicily is an established fact,
Pretty sure that this is highly contradicted by Fst. Sicilians are close to Mycenaeans, closer than northern greeks and northern italians are (which are close too)
>Sicilians are 50% North African and it is almost entirely male-mediated. True Romance was pretty accurate.
that's a bad model, sicilians have only 1-2% actual taforalt admixture, morocco_ln doesn't even represent any actual population
>and it is almost entirely male-mediated
you chart shows sicilians as having only some 10% E, and almost all of that E is E-v13, E-M81 is extremely little in siciliy (1-2%) so it wouldn't be
why do you have to lie so much
Roman era Greeks, not Myceneans and classical Greeks.
archaic era greeks in the arc paper are east med shifted
archaic greeks are east med shifted in the arc paper
mycenaeans themselves had a shift from anatolia with increased levantine and the same excess chg as minoans (which means a chg-rich source contributed)
It's pretty obvious now that is not. The East Med shift is Anatolian.
Terroni be like
The Levantine shift is because of Greek colonization!!!! They were already like This in Greek times!!!
Then 0 Levantine like individuals from This
Lmao
Med mulattos can't stop losing and coping
How much ancestry do modern-day Sicilians get from this Sicani and Greeks? What about other populations?
Sicani were pretty close to Sardinians so not much
wrong
Everyone knows Sicilians are nothing like Sardinians
sicani had steppe and iran N they were nothing like sardinians. KYS. This shit is literally in the study
They cluster very close to Sardinians still. Like 3 times closer than Basques do.
still closer to central italians and sicilian west than sardinians
Target: ITA_Sicily_MBA
Distance: 2.6237% / 0.02623729
78.6 Sardinian
11.6 Samaritan
9.8 Cypriot
Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.04089012 Sardinian
0.07548018 French_Corsica
0.08112051 Italian_Lazio
0.08462744 Italian_Apulia
0.08472219 Italian_Campania
0.08507921 Italian_Umbria
0.08537677 Sicilian_East
0.08621375 Italian_Basilicata
0.08640575 Italian_Calabria
0.08652106 Italian_Abruzzo
0.08667209 Sicilian_West
Sicani might have been slightly more steppe than Sicily MBA but that would only make them more like Corsicans not Sicilians
that would also make them closer to sicilians, moron. Also there was an increase in iran N ancestry, it's literally stated in the paper
>had steppe Iran N
Barely, and so do Sardinians
No they aren't, at all.
And this includes only Sardinians from Ogliastra, if there were Sardinians from the plains or coast they would overlap with Sicanians 100%
These threads are fricking ridiculous. Italians(probably Sicilians) dispute every single piece of factual information and their arguments are always more or less that they don't like it. How can you be so racially insecure?
Italians are the most mixed ethnicity in Europe save some Balkaners so there is bound to be some insecurity about that
Italians aren't exactly European though. So much of their ancestry is from the Middle East that they should be considered more like part European just like israeli people. They even plot close to israelites.
Greeks and Italians are closer to a Lebanese person than to a British person
what piece of factual evidence might be disputed here? There's greek-sicilians plotting over maltese and civilians over modern sicilians
man... the last papers have BTFO modern "greeks" and analbanians so hard. No E1b/R1a in ancients greeks and only 0-20% steppe. Looks like southern italians are more similar to ancient greeks also in haplogroups.
How will Gayreeks cope with 0% E-V13 in ancient Greeks? Now it's their dominant haplogroups and it all came from Albanians
Actaully three of the Iron Age Greek Sicilians are E-V13. They could be assimilated Thracians, since no E-v13 has been found among Illyrians.
>mercenaries/slaves buried in mass graves
>assimilated
holy kek the cope is real
also greeks have less r1b and G than ancients, while italians have more
That would only be correct if Italians only had Italic R1b and G but they have Iberian DF27 and a lot of Celtic R1b and even G too. Italians literally have yDNA from every race and not just any race in Europe but many races outside Europe too. Greeks have way more continuity.
Italian haplos are R1b>=J2a>E-v13=G2a
Real Italians didn't have the Celtic and Iberian subclades of R1b but now they do. Only some subclades of R-U152 and G are actually Italic and they're probably less than 25% of modern Italian yDNA.
>E-V13
>Italian
The fact that you were raped by the men of literally every Euro ethnicity does not make that haplogroup yours
where are you from?
Albania
why are you seething so hard at italians? (specifically southern ones)
I don't care about Italians I just think it's funny when they think they have any haplogroups that are their own
Hahahah
You can claim J2b and maybe some R1b, but definitely not E-V13. Italian like BVLLs raped this haplogroup into Europeans.
>Italians literally have yDNA from every race and not just any race in Europe but many races outside Europe too.
Show the the non European male haplogroups in Italians. KEK
I am waiting.
All the J and E
And the T
That's what, 30% or more of Italian yDNA?
E is thracian, J2a is Greek and T is also Greek by looking at these Iron Age Sicilians.
You have E-V12 and E-V22 who are Egyptian
You have plenty of middle eastern J and G
>You have E-V12 and E-V22 who are Egyptian
They are like 2% combined in Southern Italians (group VI)
>You have plenty of middle eastern J and G
Debunked by ancient DNA.
>Debunked by ancient DNA.
Nope. Imperial rome had an influx od mid east J and G that are not “european”
We are talking about ancient Greeks, dumbass. They had plenty of J2a and G, so did the Iron Age Balkaners and some Daunians and Etruscans. You are so ignorant of ancient dna.
You insist on painting your brownness as a product of greek semen not middle east so no fruitful discussion can be expected from you
> muh greek meme colonization on the coast is responsible for the 10% natufian in the south when myceneans themselves were barely 1% Natufian
Low IQ answer. You totally missed the point since you have no argument and shifted it on the "muh browness". It's useless to continue this debate.
I declare complete victory.
He's right, stop coping you fricking moron.
Cope, NAFRIanimal.
R & N are East Asian haplogroups so they aren't European either. The only haplogroup native to Europe is I, but it is related to Middle Eastern J so it can hardly be considered as European.
Sources?
Yeah but none of the E-V13 from the paper are locals so they're clearly not assimilated
Lol i forgot the R1a
Looks like MENAs are much less rapebabies than med weaklings
The aristocrats of the Greek city states were E-V13.
why do people just say these unsubstantiated things?
e-v13 was common among thracians, modern greeks got it later from the balkans
it was present in small amounts among illyrians and la tene celts, it's possible that some northern greek population had it in small amounts too
I hope the next Hollywood movie about ancient Greece properly depicts the diversity of ancient Greek soldiers
the "diverse" soldiers were buried in mass graves like the cattle they were, while ruled by med BVLLS
The med midgets couldn't fight their own battles
They will unironically portray Greeks as satraps if it gives them the chance to present NW europeans as slaves in chains
KEK
Greek Empuries had Celtic slaves.
>Punic
Only 11746, 11755 and 11778 are actual Semites. The rest are just Euro cattle.
Lol half of those samples are closer to Corsicans and Sardinians than Nafris, what the frick...
Not a single one of these guys had a Berber paternal haplogroup. NAFRIquadroons are the most buck broken race on the planet.
Yes not a single of these slaves carried a Carthaginian haplogroup. Did you really expect to find an elite haplogroup inside a mass grave?
>NAFRIquadroons
t. 50% MAR_LN octoroon
>Only 11746, 11755 and 11778 are actual Semites. The rest are just Euro cattle.
are you actually even north african joseph?
because judging by this chart you seem to plot somewhere around moroccan_jews and maltese, hence pretty far away from actual nafris
you can see the last sample, the r11759, the only one that actually plots with modern northwest africans, you are far away from it
it's hilarious how he excluded the only actual north african, the r11759 because he plots far away from her. turns out he's some israelite or morisco mutt
>This Bantu-Congoid haplogroup that I have? it's actually Etrusco-Roman-Patrician. Trust me.
R has been in Europe since at least the mesolithic.
>but it is related to Middle Eastern J so it can hardly be considered European.
Related as in both coming from the Caucasus originally while one went to Europe through Russia and the other down to the Middle East and replaced E.
Everyone was Etruscan. The N* found in Italy in this paper was also Etruscan. Italy has no foreign admixture.