Tiny brain: white people are Caucasians
Medium brain: most white people have nothing to do with the Caucasus, that's a 19th century myth
Giant brain: white people really are Caucasians
Dzudzuana was Gravettian with additional basal admixture it partially ancestral to CHG and Iran_N but not Anatolia_N descending from Kebarans in Levant.
>but not Anatolia_N
Anatolia_N has continuity with Dzudzuana with a great pvalue at that, unless I misunderstood what you said
2 years ago
Anonymous
It doesn't by FST and PCA.
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
It'c closer to CHG than to Anatolia
2 years ago
Anonymous
Most pcas have drift, even worse than fsts. That's why continuity is checked with qpadm
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
That's actually not impossible. Maasai speak a Nilotic language but have substantial Cushitic Y-DNA, which implies that their language was transmitted through the maternal line.
This also happened somewhere in some indian province. The guy who has the a-genetics blog was posting about it. Men imported foreign women, 1-2 generations after the men's language had 3 speakers left
Similar case with basques
Or etruscans
But it was CHG-rich men apparently anyway
2 years ago
Anonymous
Anon I literally made that pic, check the qpAdm models (same study). It has continuity. Even if Anatolia has PPN, that's mostly dzudzu as well
2 years ago
Anonymous
It doesn't have any direct continuity. Dzudzuana is proto-CHG but CHG is proto-Anatolia+ANE so they share majority of ancestry
2 years ago
Anonymous
And Anatolia_N have Iran_N/CHG related ancestry too
Most pcas have drift, even worse than fsts. That's why continuity is checked with qpadm
[...]
This also happened somewhere in some indian province. The guy who has the a-genetics blog was posting about it. Men imported foreign women, 1-2 generations after the men's language had 3 speakers left
Similar case with basques
Or etruscans
But it was CHG-rich men apparently anyway
They dodn't have any continuity but they share probably at least 70% ancestry
Most pcas have drift, even worse than fsts. That's why continuity is checked with qpadm
[...]
This also happened somewhere in some indian province. The guy who has the a-genetics blog was posting about it. Men imported foreign women, 1-2 generations after the men's language had 3 speakers left
Similar case with basques
Or etruscans
But it was CHG-rich men apparently anyway
2 years ago
Anonymous
Anatolia_N is proto-natufian with whg and iranian related ancestry.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Apparently it does. Here's what I'm talking about
Updated it with CHG/Iran
2 years ago
Anonymous
it literally shows the dzudzuana being closer to the anatolian_n
more than with gravettians (0.039 vs 0.051)
i remember an anon posted a few quotes from the study: >We first estimated FST, a measure of population genetic differentiation, to assess the genetic relationships between ancient West Eurasian populations. Post-glacial Near Easterners and North Africans (PGNE) (CHG, Natufians, Taforalt11 Ibero-Maurusians from North Africa, and early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia, Iran, the Levant, and the Maghreb) are strongly differentiated from all European and Siberian hunter-gatherers (ESHG) (FST = 0.078-0.267). By contrast, Dzudzuana is genetically closer to both contemporaneous Gravettians from Europe (0.051±0.012) and also to the much later Neolithic Anatolian farmers (0.039±0.005) who are genetically closest to them according to this measure. >Outgroup f3-statistics show that Dzudzuana clusters with Near Eastern populations primarily from Anatolia >A genetic relationship between Dzudzuana and Neolithic Anatolians is also shown by principal components analysis (PCA) in the space of ‘outgroup f4-statistics’16 of the form f4(Test, O1; O2, O3) where (O1; O2, O3) is a triple of outgroups (Fig. 1c; Methods);
2 years ago
Anonymous
As I said it's Gravettian with additional basal admixture
2 years ago
Anonymous
Shows more EEF compenent and less australoid and mongoloid components than typical Gravettians
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
Never read these papers but these models are insanely misleading going off just charts, later groups aren't ancestral to earlier groups. Villabruna isn't an unmixed rep of a group that was ancestral to Goyet and Sungir etc.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Makes no sense at all, that WHG was somewhere invisible to us (possible but unlikely) and simultaneously not drifting off from any potential Goyet-ancestral baseline while bottlenecked somewhere (impossible)
2 years ago
Anonymous
I unironically predicted this. Just lol @ trying to pass dzudzuana as a Gravettian MOGer
2 years ago
Anonymous
Predicted what? WHG mogged Gravettians.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's an anachronism so far up your own ass that I don't think you understand the thoughts in your own head. Almost all of WHG were paternal descendants of Gravettians.
Yes. PIE religion and pantheon stems from typically personified Near Eastern weather gods.
no, PIE myths are closer to Native American ones than to MENA ones.
Ancient Near Easterners werent related to Modern Ones, they had more CHG and ANF, two groups closer to Europeans than to Arabs.
The Islamic world is a massive Arab copefest because theyre all paternally J (CHG) while having as much CHG DNA as Anglo-Saxons lmao.
Total replacement of proto-Arab/Iraqi/Turk/Syrian/Iranian/Semite males by Europoids.
Laughable. PIE myths are clearly derived from MENA myths and religious belief systems. That’s because Europeans themselves are of MENA origin.
Modern MENAs are mainly the same as ancient ones. The ones who experienced "total replacement" were IE European males who got raped by Haplo R Mongoloids.
no, unless it was non-genetic. Maykop is too late.
The more obvious candidate is Meshoko. I'm not sure how well it models though. The issues with them is they aren't really that sophisticated (flint tools), are roughly contemporaneous to when we know the full WSH profile is formed, and the archeology seems to signal the reverse movement.
So you probably want something different to make the argument work. I have no clue what that would be. It can't be any later than 4200BC and preferably a few hundred years earlier it would have arrived on the southern Steppe.
We also have samples from Maykop, the "Caucasus" ones (from the Southern Caucasus) cluster on PCA near modern-day Georgians, the "Steppe" ones (from the north) are eneolithic steppe+ANE/Native American-related mutts (most likely admixed with Western Siberian Hunter-gatherer-like populations). The steppe outliers are mutt mixes from the former two.
What I find fascinating is that Proto-Semitic may have been right next to this. This is also supported by the presence of a Semitic loanword in PIE - tawros. If both are CHG-derived groups and former neighbors, this makes perfect sense.
Nothing? Why is this being treated as a revelation? Their ancestors had to come from somewhere. Are they supposed to have just sprung up from the ground? It's not even saying PIE comes from the Caucasus, it's saying that PIE derived from an earlier language family from the Caucasus.
Haplo-obsessed /misc/cels larping as Nordic steppeBlack folk presumed PIE came from hyperborea, from pvre aryan gods who sprang from the soil, so this upsets them for some reason.
They mixed with and spoke the language of southern migrant people, the caucasians.
Haplo-obsessed /misc/cels larping as Nordic steppeBlack folk presumed PIE came from hyperborea, from pvre aryan gods who sprang from the soil, so this upsets them for some reason.
Basically why there's so much seething.
2 years ago
Anonymous
There is no archeological trace of southern caucasians entering the PC Steppe en masse. Especially not in the key timeframe for CHG-EHG admixture (4500BC at the very latest).
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah, the only evidence is genetic lol.
2 years ago
Anonymous
This is just another case of a paper having some bait title to get people to talk about and misrepresent it's conclusions.
You didn't read the paper.
The vast majority of the CHG migration into the steppes happened prior to 6.500 BC. The southern arc paper argues that there was a second wave of CHG migration into the steppes which had been unidentified before, but that second wave was much, much, much smaller.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>The vast majority of the CHG migration into the steppes happened prior to 6.500 BC. The southern arc paper argues that there was a second wave of CHG migration into the steppes which had been unidentified before, but that second wave was much, much, much smaller.
First wave added 20-25% chg
Second wave doubled that. Either same size or bigger
The paper doesn't provide genetic evidence for amigration event. It provides evidence that you *can* model Yamnaya with an unidentified CHG+PPN source. Obviously you can model it differently, too.
Interestingly half of the Steppe samples in supplemental file 5 seem to prefer Barcin to PPN (look at the Afanasievo samples).
Barcin has levantine. And anatolia itself (with no whg) is the evidence for the 4400-4000bce migration
lol
lol
most of the historical evidence for the steppe hypothesis is archaeological
It isn't though. You can't even define what that means
>Autists can't literally explain the complete lack of steppe admixture in anatolia
Language can spread without DNA. See how French and Latin were brought to England by Normans, not Italians. It's possible that the Proto-Anatolians were themselves a conquered people that switched to an IE language and then went on to conquer Anatolia. Besides, there was some steppe DNA detected in Western Anatolia.
Elite dominance hypothesis is pseudoscience and even scholars have called out this larp by anthony, see Kristinsson 2012. 0 evidence = it didn't happen until we got evidence that it did
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Barcin has levantine. And anatolia itself (with no whg) is the evidence for the 4400-4000bce migration
Whatever happened in Anatolia isn't evidence for how WSH is formed. This is basic logic (this is coming from someone open to a caucasian urheimat).
2 years ago
Anonymous
>First wave added 20-25% chg >Second wave doubled that. Either same size or bigger
Literally no evidence for that. There is no relevant steppe sample that's 60% CHG derived. EHG represents the main share of yamnaya and CWC ancestry.
2 years ago
Anonymous
EHG is irrelevant. WSHG is EHG/CHG. This already points to it origin somewhere in the South (South Russia that is, I disagree with the Armenian homeland hypothesis).
I think Progress is around 60% CHG, though.
2 years ago
Anonymous
WSH - Western Steppe Herders*
2 years ago
Anonymous
>This already points to it origin somewhere in the South (South Russia that is
Yeah so this is the theory accepted by mainline anthropologists and archeogeneticists. This was also present in the southern arc paper as the hypothesis A. Unless you accept the Armenian origin (hypothesis B) this paper doesn't change the well established fact that the urheimat of the PIE languages is South-Western Russia.
>There is no relevant steppe sample that's 60% CHG derived.
Yeah no shit? Originally it was 20-25% chg and the rest ehg. Then this absorbed another wave and finally became 50-50. Chg(+anatolian) ancestry doubled (in fact more than double)
Lazaridis has posted admixture percentages in his twittee too, when analyzing the x chromosomes to determine sex bias. Both chg migrations were driven primarily by men
Why would he post that information on twitter instead of on the paper? Makes me doubt of the vericity of it all. >when analyzing the x chromosomes to determine sex bias. Both chg migrations were driven primarily by men
Yamnaya lineages are found in Armenia today, while native Armenian lineages aren't found in Europe. What you are telling me is that there were two massive migrations of men from the south caucasus into the steppe which left no descendants in the steppe. And instead you do find the descendants of steppe men in the south caucasus. This makes no sense.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>well established fact
you're mistaking fact for consensus. There's also no analysis of the number of scholars and what they actually say (about the urheimat specifically, not "oh it came in europe from there therefore this is where it first appeared) and you won't provide any since you're using it as an appeal to authority
Touch grass
>Yamnaya lineages are found in Armenia today, while native Armenian lineages aren't found in Europe
I don't understand what you mean by this since it seems irrelevant >What you are telling me is that there were two massive migrations
Not really massive. One added 20%, the other an additional 30%. The population numbers were low back then so only proportionally they were significant >of men
primarily men. Not entirely >from the south caucasus into the steppe which left no descendants in the steppe
We don't know this yet, further studies are required, especially from the early stages of admixture
"descendants" is also wrong. It left plenty of descendants with 30% extra chg. You're talking about lineages, not descend in general. Descent is autosomal >And instead you do find the [haplo]descendants of steppe men in the south caucasus. This makes no sense.
But not before in the steppe. And again, even if you did, these could have dominated later, especially in the light of the sex bias. Kind of like r1b was extinguished from CWC despite early samples having it
I don't understand the point you're trying to make
2 years ago
Anonymous
60% of mtDNA in Yamna is CHG
2 years ago
Anonymous
No. We don't really know what is CHG mtDNA in the first place. It's just 2 samples vs 30 or more Yamnaya+Afanasievo.
2 years ago
Anonymous
We know perfectly well what mtDNA EHG had.
But I do think it was mostly a balanced migration of CHG males and females, at some point between 10000 and 6000 BC.
The EHG vs CHG ratio in the X-chromosomes of Yamnaya matches realistic estimates of autosomal admixture(2:1 EHG-CHG).
2 years ago
Anonymous
I imagined scenario of EHG groups mixing somewhere North of Caucasus becoming 50%+ CHG and expanding North. I think the mixing probably happened pretty early, after LGM. Expansion North happened later, in the Mesolithic.
I doubt we will find pure CHG anywhere in Russia. The people who mixed with EHG to produce steppe ancestry were already a mix of EHG/CHG, but with more CHG.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>well established fact
you're mistaking fact for consensus. There's also no analysis of the number of scholars and what they actually say (about the urheimat specifically, not "oh it came in europe from there therefore this is where it first appeared) and you won't provide any since you're using it as an appeal to authority
Touch grass
>Yamnaya lineages are found in Armenia today, while native Armenian lineages aren't found in Europe
I don't understand what you mean by this since it seems irrelevant >What you are telling me is that there were two massive migrations
Not really massive. One added 20%, the other an additional 30%. The population numbers were low back then so only proportionally they were significant >of men
primarily men. Not entirely >from the south caucasus into the steppe which left no descendants in the steppe
We don't know this yet, further studies are required, especially from the early stages of admixture
"descendants" is also wrong. It left plenty of descendants with 30% extra chg. You're talking about lineages, not descend in general. Descent is autosomal >And instead you do find the [haplo]descendants of steppe men in the south caucasus. This makes no sense.
But not before in the steppe. And again, even if you did, these could have dominated later, especially in the light of the sex bias. Kind of like r1b was extinguished from CWC despite early samples having it
I don't understand the point you're trying to make
the Y/X CHG sex bias thing is relevant depending on where you think the CHG came from. If you believe Lazaridis, that it came from the South, then it is reasonable evidence for an intrusion.
If you believe Allentoft and the CHG is local, and driven by Don River foragers, then it is also accounted for.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Personally I'm waiting for future studies to be sure
Also if the CHG is from the balkans or wherever, it got to there from somewhere and it should be analyzed for haboring other ancestries. It most likely had anatolian
60% of mtDNA in Yamna is CHG
Looks like steppe women were fat and ugly and their lineages were wiped out
Sex bias is calculated from the x chromosome btw, not haplos, especially spread throughout time
2 years ago
Anonymous
Mesolithic HGs living in Northern Caucasian steppes is my bet. They already carried R1b from their ANE ancestors and had 50%+ CHG. They were the ones who expanded throughout the steppe bringing CHG to Khvalynsk. Later on they expanded West as Sredni Stog.
The Don foragers don't have enough CHG, but that's because they are too far North.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Wasn't the first admixture dated to neolithic? Second one around 4300bce
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mesolithic HGs living in Northern Caucasian steppes is my bet.
VGH Kalmykia, the homeland...
2 years ago
Anonymous
They came from southern Caucasia.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Weird how North-East Caucasians actually resemble the original PIE population in the Steppe more than southern Caucasians or north-west Caucasians by a long shot.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>There is no relevant steppe sample that's 60% CHG derived.
Yeah no shit? Originally it was 20-25% chg and the rest ehg. Then this absorbed another wave and finally became 50-50. Chg(+anatolian) ancestry doubled (in fact more than double)
Lazaridis has posted admixture percentages in his twittee too, when analyzing the x chromosomes to determine sex bias. Both chg migrations were driven primarily by men
2 years ago
Anonymous
So what haplogroups did these men have? Some rare J1 subclades only found once or not at all?
2 years ago
Anonymous
No idea, we don't have samples from the initial population. A useful method would be to compare the post- haplogroups to the pre- ones if they're available, and hg formation dates
J1 is likely since it was found in karelia but I don't know, it's not like we have a lot of samples of chgs and early ehgs from those areas
2 years ago
Anonymous
Meshoko was J2.
The J1 in Khvalynsk, Karelia etc appears to be local (CHG with no Barcin/PPN).
Interestingly, all the Kura Araxes is J1. ChL East Anatolia is J1 and J2.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>It isn't though. You can't even define what that means
the mounds are a matter of long standing historical record, without reservation I mean to say you lack elementary background knowledge of this subject
linguistics too has testified so far as that end
>pseudoscience
oof
reaching
2 years ago
Anonymous
The paper doesn't provide genetic evidence for amigration event. It provides evidence that you *can* model Yamnaya with an unidentified CHG+PPN source. Obviously you can model it differently, too.
Interestingly half of the Steppe samples in supplemental file 5 seem to prefer Barcin to PPN (look at the Afanasievo samples).
2 years ago
Anonymous
lol
lol
most of the historical evidence for the steppe hypothesis is archaeological
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes. Autists can't literally explain the complete lack of steppe admixture in anatolia, and will make whatever cope to deny the latest papers.
Laughable. PIE myths are clearly derived from MENA myths and religious belief systems. That’s because Europeans themselves are of MENA origin.
Modern MENAs are mainly the same as ancient ones. The ones who experienced "total replacement" were IE European males who got raped by Haplo R Mongoloids.
Yop.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Autists can't literally explain the complete lack of steppe admixture in anatolia
Language can spread without DNA. See how French and Latin were brought to England by Normans, not Italians. It's possible that the Proto-Anatolians were themselves a conquered people that switched to an IE language and then went on to conquer Anatolia. Besides, there was some steppe DNA detected in Western Anatolia.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Besides, there was some steppe DNA detected in Western
And most of their samples are from the East, particularly in the periods where it is unclear if PIE would even have been spoken in Anatolia.
>they have a very clear continuity
there hasn't been continuity on the steppe since forever. Khvalynsk were different than yamnaya and early cwc, cwc proper was different, sintashta/andronovo were different, bell beakers were different
Steppe history is just continuous racemixing
I remember arguing with a boomer a few months ago. Dude had read only anthony (2007) and nothing else and rejected every single argument or contrary evidence (even on basis of "lol he's not as accomplished as anthony! Invalid!") while being condescending. I hate dunning kruger boomeroids
also there's something about the not being able to take any criticism. They get easily hurt and start sperging
I swear it's dunning kruger and a feeling of their intelligence being threatened
>churka origin of European languages
Funny, kurgan hypothesis argues exactly this since the people are 50% near eastern and 50% east of the urals siberian. West asians are more related to europe due to their high dzudzuana admixture, unlike steppoids
so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
CHG as PIE doesn't make much sense imo
also "Proto-Indo-Anatolian" as a definition doesn't make any sense, no Anatolian language was widely spoken in the Indian subcontinent ever and it seems they hyphenate their idea just as a way of implying the connection with PIE their abstract conduced
all I'm really saying here is they could have picked a better name and are overreaching
Iosif Lazaridis
@iosif_lazaridis
·
Aug 28
Replying to
@iosif_lazaridis
The evidence for male CHG bias is not super strong so we did not dwell on this point in the Southern Arc paper. But, I thought it would be useful to report here as I want people to be aware that the data don't point to a male EHG:female CHG mix and if anything the opposite. >not super strong
Whatever happened, CHG males didnt reproduce while EHG males did, and EHG males reproduced both North and South of the Caucasus and dominated all PIE cultures.
That I2 is effectively indigenous to the Steppe. It'll show up in Sredni too.
it doesnt, its from Cucuteni Trypillia, the turbo farmers with 1% WHG.
some giga farmer fathered a boy with a Yamnaya girl and that boy became Chief of Bulgaria.
>it doesnt, its from Cucuteni Trypillia, the turbo farmers with 1% WHG.
I2 is in the 5400 BC Don foragers from the Allentoft paper. It's pre-I-L701.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The I2 from the Bulgarian Barrow paper is from Cucuteni.
The Don Forager might be from straight up WHGs and Armenian I2 might also be from WHGs.
but the Yamnaya I2 in Europe is from Farmers.
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
Lazaridis addresses that criticism in this thread https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1563953730499878926
"A direct test of the sex bias hypothesis is to fit the same model on the autosomes and chrX; since the chrX spends 2/3 of its life in females, under the assumption that CHG ancestry is mediated by females we'd expect more CHG ancestry on chrX than autosomes"
"The simple CHG-EHG model gives a CHG estimate of:
51.9+/- 1.3% (autosomes)
34.2+/- 8.5% (chrX)"
"In other words, the evidence is (2.1 s.e.) in favor of male CHG bias and _not_ the opposite"
"The evidence for male CHG bias is not super strong so we did not dwell on this point in the Southern Arc paper. But, I thought it would be useful to report here as I want people to be aware that the data don't point to a male EHG:female CHG mix and if anything the opposite." >also "Proto-Indo-Anatolian" as a definition doesn't make any sense, no Anatolian language was widely spoken in the Indian subcontinent ever and it seems they hyphenate their idea just as a way of implying the connection with PIE their abstract conduced
Wasn't the name used before in academic literature? >all I'm really saying here is they could have picked a better name and are overreaching
I agree with this.
Yeah I agree too that it's a weird name, but they do it on basis of Anatolian being a sister language to PIE and not a daughter
So PIA is PIE+Anatolian
it's not a criticism or unrealistic, just an observation of what must have gone down according to their own model and the collected evidence
Maykop, the ultimate origin of the tumulus burial tradition
also >we
WE
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
They want M269 to be CHG or part of a founder effect after CHG formed the WSH profile.
I don't think the x vs y chromosome thing from Lazaridis is very convincing because a lot of the CHG should be local (don or progress-like). Because otherwise you end up with too much PPN or Barcin related ancestry.
>want M269 to be CHG or part of a founder effect after CHG formed the WSH profile
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
They want M269 to be CHG or part of a founder effect after CHG formed the WSH profile.
I don't think the x vs y chromosome thing from Lazaridis is very convincing because a lot of the CHG should be local (don or progress-like). Because otherwise you end up with too much PPN or Barcin related ancestry.
>I don't think the x vs y chromosome thing from Lazaridis is very convincing because a lot of the CHG should be local (don or progress-like). Because otherwise you end up with too much PPN or Barcin related ancestry.
I think he's talking about the second migration
There was already around 20% chg in the "ehg" (ehg-rich) population from the first migration
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
That's actually not impossible. Maasai speak a Nilotic language but have substantial Cushitic Y-DNA, which implies that their language was transmitted through the maternal line.
I dont think the name implies that. They never claimed that. It can be interpreted as Anatolian and Indo being two separate branches. Which they are, but they're pushing back the date they split and where.
I read it, he doesn't say anything. Just posts g25 fake models but he'll never actually publish a paper of his own, he's just trying to save face so people will keep buying his meme calculator
Nobody has refuted Reich and Lazaridis so far and crying on your blog won't change that
And not even catacomb, but CWC r1a
He's been wrong a frickload of times and is narcissistic and wrote about he will "no longer try to help these people"
LOL sure mate harvard is waiting for help from a 45 year old incel living in australia with an amateur hobby in genetics
Dude is throwing a tantrum because he realized that nobody actually cares about his "work" kek
The cope about Mycenean elites is pretty funny. One guy in the comments pondered if he was a hired Minoan mercenary, not realizing that it wasn't just some warrior, it's the richest early Mycenean grave ever found. He was most likely a ruler. Probably one of the first Mycenean rulers.
>we wuzzers claim Myceneans elites were high steppe so they can larp as Achilles and Odysseus and shieet >LARP as Greeks constantly >get BTFO by the first Lazaridis paper, cope by saying the next study will set the record straight >get BTFO by that study with the phenotypes being Mediterranean, brown/black hair, pale to tawny skin >new Lazaridis study comes out BTFOing gays like survive the jive and Chad pastoralist >Mycenean elite, male, King, found at the literal Homeric Kingdom of sandy Pylos, has 0 steppe >Myceneans resemble southern Italians and modern Greeks the most genetically, which means they were even more tawny and Mediterranean-like in those days >i-i-it must be a Minoan mercenary!
LMAAAO life as a nordicist must be constant fricking suffering. BTFO by Mycenean art, BTFO by genetics, BTFO by every metric >inb4 da jooz
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mycenaeans resemble southern Italians and islander Greeks the most genetically, which means they were even more tawny and Mediterranean-like in those days
Fixed it for you. They resemble islander Greeks.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I will impregnate a Greek/southern Italian cutie so my son has those ancient Mediterranean heroic genes
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mycenaeans resemble southern Italians and islander Greeks the most genetically, which means they were even more tawny and Mediterranean-like in those days
Fixed it for you. They resemble islander Greeks.
>muh heroic iliad warriors.
the ones with steppe admixture and r1b who ruled over J medlets?
2 years ago
Anonymous
The ones with 75% eef and j/r1b/g haplogroups.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Le steppe elite
Refusal of facts and making shit up to LARP in fantasy land. Many such cases!
2 years ago
Anonymous
The best thing these studies achieved was exposing all the larpers. There's still plenty of normal people disagreeing with the paper but the larpers went completely apeshit with denial and butthurt. Now they'll stay in their echochambers and will become more and more fringe
2 years ago
Anonymous
I was hoping the nordicists would give up after the selection paper was released last week.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Nordicists have troony tier IQ and both are enacting out fantasies, also most nordicists arent even nordic but either britbongs or dios mio mutts
[...] >t.same guys that still deny the Rome paper to this day
Why would I have a problem with that?
Weird how North-East Caucasians actually resemble the original PIE population in the Steppe more than southern Caucasians or north-west Caucasians by a long shot.
>the original PIE population
Iranians and Armenians resemble Iran_ChL the most iirc
2 years ago
Anonymous
Anatolia_ChL*
2 years ago
Anonymous
I was hoping the nordicists would give up after the selection paper was released last week.
>t.same guys that still deny the Rome paper to this day
2 years ago
Anonymous
The new cope is that Southern Italians are Anatolians
2 years ago
Anonymous
Damn, IE comes from Terronia
2 years ago
Anonymous
The best thing these studies achieved was exposing all the larpers. There's still plenty of normal people disagreeing with the paper but the larpers went completely apeshit with denial and butthurt. Now they'll stay in their echochambers and will become more and more fringe
>the larpers
who? >the echochamber
where?
Its going to be you perpetually denying that ancient Greeks share more DNA with modern Europeans than with Syrians, Anatolians, and Cypriots.
I was hoping the nordicists would give up after the selection paper was released last week.
>the paper had a blonde greek sample >the paper had R1b and steppe admixed Mycenaeans
lol
you said not a single one was blonde
WRONG
you said not a single one was steppe admixed
WRONG
LMAO
2 years ago
Anonymous
The blond one is a Minoan.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I was referring to the Arcadian.
Theyre all the same anyway, none of them except for the steppe rich ones deviate autosomally more than 20% from any other one.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Arcadian
Which sample?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Not true, have a nice day
2 years ago
Anonymous
You are a low IQ moron.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>all those 0.047-0.06 scores
They don’t genetically overlap meaning modern south Italians and Greeks aren’t descended from them but they merely have related DNA. Learn to read. Those genes died out like most ancient genes. Just like today with whites overall. Successful people stop breeding and the losers eventually take over from over breeding. This is the tall tale of history.
>sample size of one
It's time for people like you to stop posting about genetics
2 years ago
Anonymous
huh? we have plenty of elite mycenaean samples now over a span of centuries. all have low steppe, richest (noblest) one has zero. They're identical to commoners
2 years ago
Anonymous
Two. There's also a female elite from the earlier study. Also, for all we know the Griffin warrior could be one of the first Mycenean kings, so it's not just some random guy.
The upcoming Biomuse study also have some nobles. They cluster with other Greeks.
2 years ago
Anonymous
These are ruler/royal samples, we have more lower status elites from the palace
And not even catacomb, but CWC r1a
He's been wrong a frickload of times and is narcissistic and wrote about he will "no longer try to help these people"
LOL sure mate harvard is waiting for help from a 45 year old incel living in australia with an amateur hobby in genetics
Dude is throwing a tantrum because he realized that nobody actually cares about his "work" kek
The cope about Mycenean elites is pretty funny. One guy in the comments pondered if he was a hired Minoan mercenary, not realizing that it wasn't just some warrior, it's the richest early Mycenean grave ever found. He was most likely a ruler. Probably one of the first Mycenean rulers.
>we wuzzers claim Myceneans elites were high steppe so they can larp as Achilles and Odysseus and shieet >LARP as Greeks constantly >get BTFO by the first Lazaridis paper, cope by saying the next study will set the record straight >get BTFO by that study with the phenotypes being Mediterranean, brown/black hair, pale to tawny skin >new Lazaridis study comes out BTFOing gays like survive the jive and Chad pastoralist >Mycenean elite, male, King, found at the literal Homeric Kingdom of sandy Pylos, has 0 steppe >Myceneans resemble southern Italians and modern Greeks the most genetically, which means they were even more tawny and Mediterranean-like in those days >i-i-it must be a Minoan mercenary!
LMAAAO life as a nordicist must be constant fricking suffering. BTFO by Mycenean art, BTFO by genetics, BTFO by every metric >inb4 da jooz
Firstly no one wants to be Greek, they were stagnant illiterate failures who suckle on the teat of Nordics TODAY.
They got sacked out by the Romans a thoroughly Steppe descended race.
They got mauled and Gauled by Brennus then made a cope about why they won Thermopylae one but lost the second round despite having a larger army.
They all, even the islanders, got SLAV'D.
Secondly, Hellenic Golden Age Samples have some very high steppe individuals, and steppe admixture and Y DNA is present in Mycenaeans themselves and from Greeks in that era.
Thirdly >muh nordicists le everyone was aryan greek
no one has ever said this, you constantly peddle this strawman because the reality shatters your ego.
Some Greeks in their Heroic Age, Golden Age, and Classical era were high in Steppe, and had Steppe Forefathers.
You can not say "Greeks are totally unrelated to Northern Europeans." because its two fold, Northern Europeans do have plenty of CHG and EEF in abundance. Greeks then and now have similar levels of CHG and share a ton of Anatolian with North Euros. >but sirs Iam syrian arap menamuttts ami of de greks?
no, Near Easterners today are turbo rapebabies who have no connection to Greece in any era, and Greeks looked at them with nothing but contempt, seeing them as cowardly and physically weak.
While Greeks thought Gauls were low IQ, they also thought they were absurdly handsome and physically on par with the best Olympians.
Greeks both ancient and modern had/have individuals who exhibit blondism.
get over it.
>Hellenic Golden Age
What's the date on that? >very high steppe individuals
Highest steppe in any greek culture is around 18% >Y DNA is present in Mycenaeans themselves and from Greeks in that era
R1b after the collapse of the mycenaean civilization, all from a single family, all with very low steppe. Richest elite grave so far had litetally 0% steppe
>Greeks both ancient and modern had/have individuals who exhibit blondism.
That's unrelated to steppe. You can easily see that from a blond minoan or a neolithic farmer
2 years ago
Anonymous
He's making this up. I follow all the archeogenetic studies, pretty much every sentence in that post is wrong.
While it's possible for some early elites to be high steppe so far there's no evidence of this. The only two samples with high steppe in Greece are MBA samples from North Greece. Both are women and their graves are not rich.
They also seem to belong to a group that was not part of the Helladic culture (the samples are dated to late Early Helladic or to Middle Helladic era - pre-Mycenean so they might not be Greeks in the first place).
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah I've read the archeological study (it's in Greek), the area was later occupied by mycenaeans (it has hundreds of mycenaean era graves) these two samples didn't have any mycenaean context at the MBA. No grave goods either
Not that person but Coon and Lundman already predicted without DNA that North and East Europeans have mongoloid east-baltid and ladogan substructure based on anthropology and we know that those upper paleolithic semi-mongoloid, borreby and alpinid phenotypes must be from ANE. We also have mongoloid looking EHG reconstructions and fully caucasoid looking EEF reconstructions.
Coon also said that nordics are depigmented meds and mediterranean phenotypes in Europe are from EEF. Coon categorized neolithic farmer skulls as graciel mediterraneans.
Coon also said that nordics are depigmented meds and mediterranean phenotypes in Europe are from EEF. Coon categorized neolithic farmer skulls as graciel mediterraneans.
I don't post here for five years. Multiple people probably said it during that time. Already confirmed by anthropology long ago. Coon catergorized EHG as Khanty like and recent study showed them closest to north Chinese.
you are a very recognizable poster, you are the moron that fell in love with that shitty "basal" estimate that made it plot outside of modern human continuity, you'll probably going to post that pca wiht that shitty estimate made by some guy on a forum
ehg wasn't mongoloid, people that are 90% west eurasians cannot be mongoloid
2 years ago
Anonymous
the dude is hilarious, he's been posting "Ane was mongoloid" for 5 years now. Go to the IQfy archives and search for "ANE mongoloid" without the quotes and you'll see for how long he's been seetheposting
A decent modern day example of what might've happened in Anatolia from the steppe homeland perspective is northern Mexicans, pretty often probably have less than 10% Spanish admixture and yet they speak Spanish and are colonizing the American southwest and subjugating its native white inhabitants
If I'm getting the Anatolian through the balkans idea right, you basically need to prove 2 Hungarians happened in a row. That IE spread into a Balkan group that didn't become very steppe autosomally, and then that group spread into Anatolia and their subjects didn't become very balkan autosomally. Is this wrong?
The Balkans can be as Steppe as you want under that model. Either there is a clear autosomal contribution (like Ezero) or there is limited (like Usatovo).
The archeology/previous view would want Kumtepe-Troas-Yassitepe to have a clear signal. It would actually prefer these areas to show a contribution and the Eastern/Northern Hittite/Palaic regions to have this muted. Because the linguistic diversity is centred on the western complex.
So not necessarily to your first point and kind of to your second point.
Iosif said on Twitter something along the lines of, without chariots and large numbers it's unclear what advantage an intrusive IE speaking group would have had in Anatolia during the bronze age. Could be underestimating the potency of IE memes. Might not be too much of a stretch to say IE speaking individuals were on average more to much more ruthless in cases of power pursuits, maybe kind of like a puritan group in a new land vs an assimilationist group or something. An IE culture could've converted an already civilizationally decked out balkan group, then that balkan group could have brought xyz Anatolia border group under the IE meme umbrella and watched its memes and language diffuse into Anatolia. Seems less clean an explanation now, or comparably unclean an explanation than the Armenian hypothesis or at least Anatolian through the NE of Anatolia, but maybe cleanliness shouldn't be favored in humanity models.
PIE-speaking steppe groups (not to be confused with the PIA-speaking West Asians they propose for Hypothesis B) didn't have chariots, they had carts and wagons. Chariots were a late Sintashta innovation.
>chariots
PIE-speaking steppe groups (not to be confused with the PIA-speaking West Asians they propose for Hypothesis B) didn't have chariots, they had carts and wagons. Chariots were a late Sintashta innovation. Small nitpick, I know.
I wish we could have a PIE thread without morons shitflinging over whether the PIE were "blonde blue eyed chad nords" or "brown skinned mongoloids with hook noses" when in realitry every archeogeneticist is in full agreement that the PIE had fair skin, brown hair and brown eyes.
This paper has nothing to do with pigmentation, it's literally just about whether the PIE *language* originated south or north of the Caucasus mountains. But talking about language urheimat can't be used to racebait on IQfy.
No. It doesn’t show any inherent resemblance to Siberian and Amerindian languages, and any superficial similarities are clearly due to late EHG influence.
No. It doesn’t show any inherent resemblance to Siberian and Amerindian languages, and any superficial similarities are clearly due to late EHG influence.
PIE is far, far younger than ANE.
Iosif said on Twitter something along the lines of, without chariots and large numbers it's unclear what advantage an intrusive IE speaking group would have had in Anatolia during the bronze age. Could be underestimating the potency of IE memes. Might not be too much of a stretch to say IE speaking individuals were on average more to much more ruthless in cases of power pursuits, maybe kind of like a puritan group in a new land vs an assimilationist group or something. An IE culture could've converted an already civilizationally decked out balkan group, then that balkan group could have brought xyz Anatolia border group under the IE meme umbrella and watched its memes and language diffuse into Anatolia. Seems less clean an explanation now, or comparably unclean an explanation than the Armenian hypothesis or at least Anatolian through the NE of Anatolia, but maybe cleanliness shouldn't be favored in humanity models.
I found that weird too. I feel like the Reich lab tends to want everything to be linear (in terms of sophistication).
It's also not clear that would be the case anyway, considering Carpatho-Balkan metallurgy exceeded much of the caucasus for quite some time.
Some stuff in Anthony's book is wrong. Frankly, I think he focused way too much on steppe culture (horses, wagons, all this stuff) when the main groups that spread the language seem to be some Eastern agro-pastoralists that weren't that different from Globular Amphora people.
A ton of it is wrong. He tries to link Germanic to Usatovo, for example.
It is an intriguing book for the fact that it got a lot of stuff right despite a lack of genetic methodology.
Hence in his book Corded Ware is merely mentioned while he thinks that every pastoralist culture came from Yamnaya. In reality it really seems to be the opposite.
Anthony is biased, they are all biased. I think someone on anthrogenica said it best. People who specialize in this or that culture want to see PIE in it (the same is true for other archeological cultures too).
You can see it in Anthony's book. His specialization is the Samara region and he traces every part of PIE culture to foragers from Volga.
I bet he was disappointed when it turned out that Khvalynsk wasn't the ancestor of later steppe groups.
Yeah that actually makes a lot of sense actually, and happens even with "where this famous food originated from" meme arguments between countries. They see prestige in IE, especially pre-2015 where there was a sort of myth around them, and they want to claim that myth as their heritage
We know perfectly well what mtDNA EHG had.
But I do think it was mostly a balanced migration of CHG males and females, at some point between 10000 and 6000 BC.
The EHG vs CHG ratio in the X-chromosomes of Yamnaya matches realistic estimates of autosomal admixture(2:1 EHG-CHG).
Not balanced (since there was a bias) but not 100% males either
I imagined scenario of EHG groups mixing somewhere North of Caucasus becoming 50%+ CHG and expanding North. I think the mixing probably happened pretty early, after LGM. Expansion North happened later, in the Mesolithic.
I doubt we will find pure CHG anywhere in Russia. The people who mixed with EHG to produce steppe ancestry were already a mix of EHG/CHG, but with more CHG.
Doubt it, such a group would not carry anatolian
unless I misunderstood what you said
Arc paper argued that it lacks WHG ancestry. Otherwise there were three migrations into yamnaya territory (or rather pre yamnaya)
There was an apparent bias yes, but the autosomal admixture estimate does not match reality for whatever reason. Yamnaya is not 50-50.
Arc paper actually says 48% ehg
https://i.imgur.com/h1MZMGZ.jpg
What are the implications of this?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes it says so but it's wrong. Virtually all other estimates are 2:1. It's just one data point and not breaking research with new methods.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I don't buy it. We have Progress/Voynuchka samples with enough CHG to produce steppe groups. I don't know why they confuse the picture so much inventing new migrations that probably never took place.
In that case future studies will confirm or reject
Btw there's already another study out (different team) tracing two CHG migrations in yamnaya, as the arc paper finds. Posted by lazaridis on his twitter around a week ago.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I don't buy it. We have Progress/Voynuchka samples with enough CHG to produce steppe groups. I don't know why they confuse the picture so much inventing new migrations that probably never took place.
Im gonna laugh hard when all the "indo-evropean traditions and cvltvre" that are mostly attested in greece iran and india end up being near eastern in origin. Man, all this larping gone to waste by people who thought that someone else's ancestors are their ancestors
>But here's my prediction: Steppe_EMBA only has 10-15% admixture from the post-Mesolithic Near East
More like 30%
>and basically all of this comes via female mediated gene flow
Mostly male mediated
>On the other hand, the widely publicized hypothesis that the Yamnaya population is a ~50/50 mixture between indigenous Eastern European hunter-gatherers and Near Eastern migrants never looked right to me. So I'm glad that it's now dead and buried.
That's what it is though, 50/50. Or rather less than 50% on both sides to make room for the extra anatolian and levantine
Also EHGs aren't indigenous just like a 2/3 somali 1/3 swedish speciment isn't an indigenous swede
>Those of you not up to date with this topic, all you need to know is
Oh I'm sure a toilet cleaner's schizo blog is all I need to know.
>that the Yamnaya genotype
Half of which consists of people who were 2/3 east of the urals siberian and the other half is west asian. Only 1/6 is actually from europe (the whg in ehgs)
>existed in Eastern Europe at least a thousand years before Yamnaya
That population went extinct
>and, moreover, the Yamnaya people are largely derived from Eastern European foragers already rich in Near Eastern-related ancestry.
20% isn't rich. They derive from ehgs that got fricked by male mediated west asian geneflow and the resulting population got fricked again by male mediated west asian geneflow increasing its overall near eastern dna to 50%
>the narrative that waves of Near Eastern migrants moved into prehistoric Eastern Europe, leading to the emergence of the Yamnaya culture and even the Proto-Indo-European language, is still being pushed by some notable scientists working with ancient DNA.
Kek he misspelled "the truth the scientific evidence points at" as "narrative". Imagine coping this hard especially when there are two (2) studies finding the same thing, not just Lazaridis
>My hope is that, considering the latest revelations about the genetic origins of the Yamnaya people, these scientists can embrace a more nuanced view. How about something like this?
Bargaining stage of grief. Also he thinks anyone gives a shit about what he thinks, must be all the reflection from the toilet water when he cleans the bowls that makes him fall in love with his reflection, a modern narcissus
>- people moved around, and they were especially mobile on the Eastern European steppe from the Eneolithic onwards
Sure. Explains why they racemixed so often and got to the western steppe from east of the urals in the first place
>- when they made contact they sometimes mixed, so there was admixture between far flung steppe groups
Nope, all evidence points to ehgs mixing with west asian chgs and then mixing again with them. If they mixed with other groups on the steppe it did not affect their genome
>- since population densities on the steppe were low until the Yamnaya period, minor admixture that entered the steppe during the Neolithic and Eneolithic wasn't dilluted easily.
Entered twice as the studies show, once up to 20% and then it increased to 50%. Both male mediated, second one around 4400-4000bce
Fricking yikes, imagine having to come up with all this cope just because you're butthurt at genetic studies
2 years ago
Anonymous
what's his problem exactly?
he doesn't say why he believes it didn't happen
just that he believes it didn't
>20% isn't rich. They derive from ehgs that got fricked by male mediated west asian geneflow and the resulting population got fricked again by male mediated west asian geneflow increasing its overall near eastern dna to 50%
yes I'm sure I2, R1a and R-M269 are all West Asian.
>R-M269 are all West Asian.
well there are some samples in iran without ehg ancestry
if future studies confirm then yes m269 would be west asian
unless im remembering the wrong r1b in the iran samples
2 years ago
Anonymous
>well there are some samples in iran without ehg ancestry
Most of them have EHG, although a few don't
Same with the Armenian samples
2 years ago
Anonymous
>although a few don't
Case in point. Further analysis will provide insight
I'm not even against a scenario of steppe lineages eventually dominating, it doesn't even make a difference. Although 2103 would be more of a yamnaya lineage than a "steppe" (let alone ehg) one since its formation date is pretty recent
2 years ago
Anonymous
His problem is that the conditions that were discovered, he considers proof of language transfer. He applies similar standards to CWC/Yamnaya so he has to apply them in this case as well, hence his complete denial.
Luckily for him this isn't guaranteed to spread a language. But then he would also have to give up his confidence of other IE languages spreading this way (in fact we already have evidence where they didn't).
It's just panic mode cope, he'll get over it eventually.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>But then he would also have to give up his confidence of other IE languages spreading this way (in fact we already have evidence where they didn't).
But they literally did? We know because we saw the result of those migrations.
>20% isn't rich. They derive from ehgs that got fricked by male mediated west asian geneflow and the resulting population got fricked again by male mediated west asian geneflow increasing its overall near eastern dna to 50%
yes I'm sure I2, R1a and R-M269 are all West Asian.
2 years ago
Anonymous
X chromosome has been analyzed, it was male mediated. >haplos
Try and find them on the steppe on a population without CHG. Not that they're straight from west asia, some appeared after the mixing
Not to mention these are non-sequitur for the original raping of ehg females (already raped once) by chg males
2 years ago
Anonymous
>X chromosome has been analyzed, it was male mediated.
Most of the CHG is local. >Try and find them on the steppe on a population without CHG
see above >Not that they're straight from west asia
Yet not a single verifiable west asian male lineage survived? In any post-stog culture? >inb4 Afanasievo J1
this is the same clade as Khvalynsk I6735 which is all local CHG
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Most of the CHG is local.
It isn't. Only 20% of it is, the rest 30% isn't. To studies out on this, dating the admixture. It's over
>Yet not a single verifiable west asian male lineage survived?
We don't know the ydna of the second migration
Furthermore, this could have happened centuries after from a local tribe taking over others. Doesn't day much especially in the light of previous "ehg" lineages not surviving either.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>To studies out on this, dating the admixture
If you mean the Patterson paper per his words DATES isn't especially accurate without proximate sources.
FWIW expect samples far older. >Only 20% of it is, the rest 30% isn't.
haha the only proximate source is 40% Barcin/Levantine and 60% CHG.
Ergo, you need much more don and progress.
And that's assuming zero EEF contribution.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Hence why I think more studies are necessary. Although it seems convincing, unless ofcourse overturned in the future
>the only proximate source is 40% Barcin/Levantine and 60% CHG.
My bad, should have clarified 20% and 30% near eastern/west asian/southern arc instead of just CHG. After all that's their main argument (part Anatolian)
2 years ago
Anonymous
I think it's a fine (or rather, plausible) argument based on what we have. I would read the supplemental if you haven't.
My only qualms are the archeology and related mechanism representing language shift.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>If West Asian males didn't participate in the spread of CHG ancestry then all of it would be spread by females and hence 2/3 of the ancestry on the chrX would be CHG; it's actually 34.2+/-8.5%, i.e. 3.9 s.e. lower. That scenario is dead in the water.
>Your claim was that languages must have been transmitted by men and this disproved our model. It is clear that men transmitted CHG ancestry and the EHG men:CHG women model is wrong. The fact that certain lineages came to dominate the Yamnaya and CWC is interesting but...
>... doesn't really tell us anything about the genetic composition of the admixing populations of a thousand years earlier when the successful lineages were nowhere to be seen if they existed at all.
>Good question; these are Yamnaya cluster samples. >Results on RUS_Khvalynsk_Eneol (autosomal/chrX) >21.5 78.5 (s.e.=1.7) >-7.6 107.6 (s.e.=15.4)
>Results on RUS_Eneol_Piedmont >55.5 44.5 (s.e.=1.7) >10.8 89.2 (s.e.=7.1)
>As we say in the supplement, we are uncertain of which is the northern Eneolithic source contributing to the Yamnaya cluster individuals, but the two Eneolithic published populations appear to be in the same direction (paucity of CHG admixture on chrX).
@iosif_lazaridis
2 years ago
Anonymous
one of the butthurt larpers who harped about the male/female ratio was this supposed """european"""
Dude looks 50-75% sub-saharan with albinism and no soul. Grim
2 years ago
Anonymous
X chromosome has been analyzed, it was male mediated. >haplos
Try and find them on the steppe on a population without CHG. Not that they're straight from west asia, some appeared after the mixing
Not to mention these are non-sequitur for the original raping of ehg females (already raped once) by chg males
Yamnaya has CHG MtDNA.
It has no CHG Y DNA.
Yamnaya has EHG MtDNA.
The spread of CHG DNA was mediated by CHG rich females and European males. >b-b-but
if it was CHG male related, why did their balls stop working?
2 years ago
Anonymous
This is not how that works. Yamnaya is the result of a later founder effect, it's perfectly possible that CHG was male mediated.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>it's perfectly possible that CHG was male mediated
nah its not possible when you have CHG MtDNA.
You can say CHG males contributed and then got cucked out of existence, but you cant say it was male mediated because steppe BVLLs were cooming into proto-MENA.
2 years ago
Anonymous
And what is CHG mtDNA? Both Caucasus and the steppe have similar mtDNA, so I don't see your point.
CHG
H13c and K3, steppe - U, R, probably some others, H2 maybe.
2 years ago
Anonymous
brutal redpill, EEF and CHG shared the same maternal ancestors via Dzudzu descent.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>it's perfectly possible that CHG was male mediated
The possibility is extremely low, almost non-existent even, considering the data we have.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The weird thing is for me is that, wouldn't the better evidence be where the Barcin/PPN ancestry is found on the x/y chromosomes?
Because then you would be able to deduce how the hypothesized CHG+PPN source is mediated (assuming this is even a reliable method).
I'm neutral about this whole thing. In fact, I'm in the anti-steppe camp as I hate the stupid nomad Black folk, but I don't delude myself that PIE came from the South. Archeology and genetics do not show that. They push this theory really hard, but they have very little evidence for this.
In fact, I doubt pure CHG ever lived in North Caucasus, let alone on the Russian steppes.
There's no a cline going from CHG to steppe foragers. There's a cline going from EHG to Yamnaya/like, Progress-like individuals. It's how Khvalynsk look like and how Don foragers look like.
Expansion from Caucasus? Sure. But not from the South and not of pure CHG. It was an expansion of Progress/Voynuchka like people.
as regards the Anatolian urheimat hypothesis, I honestly don't rule it out
affixation to a single model or idea is always ill founded
rather I factor in the evidence as a whole
all of it taken together is distributed rather evenly around a locus, the Black Sea
once a freshwater lake, an breach event with the Mediterranean sometime in the middle holocene lead to it's salinization and flooding of uncertain magnitude and onset
the areas immediately surrounding the Black Sea lake at that time, one example being the Sea of Azov where the remains of a neolithic settlement somehow remained, were inundated and their biomass settled to the bottom of the Black Sea (releasing dangerous levels of anaerobic methane gas to this day)
there was once, a very long time ago, a culture common to the rim of that lake, Caucasians, Anatolians, Balkans, Vkrainians all
it is there I could suppose PIE coalesced if I were so inclined
Tiny brain: white people are Caucasians
Medium brain: most white people have nothing to do with the Caucasus, that's a 19th century myth
Giant brain: white people really are Caucasians
All west Eurasians come from Dzudzuana which was from Caucasus. It seems like the term caucasian/caucasoid was very prophetic.
But Dzudzuana was a Basal mutt, so can we really say he's a real West Eurasian?
Dzudzuana was Gravettian with additional basal admixture it partially ancestral to CHG and Iran_N but not Anatolia_N descending from Kebarans in Levant.
>but not Anatolia_N
Anatolia_N has continuity with Dzudzuana with a great pvalue at that, unless I misunderstood what you said
It doesn't by FST and PCA.
It'c closer to CHG than to Anatolia
Most pcas have drift, even worse than fsts. That's why continuity is checked with qpadm
This also happened somewhere in some indian province. The guy who has the a-genetics blog was posting about it. Men imported foreign women, 1-2 generations after the men's language had 3 speakers left
Similar case with basques
Or etruscans
But it was CHG-rich men apparently anyway
Anon I literally made that pic, check the qpAdm models (same study). It has continuity. Even if Anatolia has PPN, that's mostly dzudzu as well
It doesn't have any direct continuity. Dzudzuana is proto-CHG but CHG is proto-Anatolia+ANE so they share majority of ancestry
And Anatolia_N have Iran_N/CHG related ancestry too
They dodn't have any continuity but they share probably at least 70% ancestry
Anatolia_N is proto-natufian with whg and iranian related ancestry.
Apparently it does. Here's what I'm talking about
Updated it with CHG/Iran
it literally shows the dzudzuana being closer to the anatolian_n
more than with gravettians (0.039 vs 0.051)
i remember an anon posted a few quotes from the study:
>We first estimated FST, a measure of population genetic differentiation, to assess the genetic relationships between ancient West Eurasian populations. Post-glacial Near Easterners and North Africans (PGNE) (CHG, Natufians, Taforalt11 Ibero-Maurusians from North Africa, and early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia, Iran, the Levant, and the Maghreb) are strongly differentiated from all European and Siberian hunter-gatherers (ESHG) (FST = 0.078-0.267). By contrast, Dzudzuana is genetically closer to both contemporaneous Gravettians from Europe (0.051±0.012) and also to the much later Neolithic Anatolian farmers (0.039±0.005) who are genetically closest to them according to this measure.
>Outgroup f3-statistics show that Dzudzuana clusters with Near Eastern populations primarily from Anatolia
>A genetic relationship between Dzudzuana and Neolithic Anatolians is also shown by principal components analysis (PCA) in the space of ‘outgroup f4-statistics’16 of the form f4(Test, O1; O2, O3) where (O1; O2, O3) is a triple of outgroups (Fig. 1c; Methods);
As I said it's Gravettian with additional basal admixture
Shows more EEF compenent and less australoid and mongoloid components than typical Gravettians
Never read these papers but these models are insanely misleading going off just charts, later groups aren't ancestral to earlier groups. Villabruna isn't an unmixed rep of a group that was ancestral to Goyet and Sungir etc.
Makes no sense at all, that WHG was somewhere invisible to us (possible but unlikely) and simultaneously not drifting off from any potential Goyet-ancestral baseline while bottlenecked somewhere (impossible)
I unironically predicted this. Just lol @ trying to pass dzudzuana as a Gravettian MOGer
Predicted what? WHG mogged Gravettians.
That's an anachronism so far up your own ass that I don't think you understand the thoughts in your own head. Almost all of WHG were paternal descendants of Gravettians.
When you think about it, everything single group in the Euro genome had either dwelled in the Caucuses or passed through them.
So are Georgians White?
Nobody outside of America uses the term white. Georgians are Caucasians and Caucasian Genotypes contributed to European admixture.
Ban Yanks from discourse on genetics please.
>Giant brain: white people really are Caucasians
YES
She cute
tfw no genocidal Aryan waifu
She looks like she has a lot of georgian dna
qtPIE
Look how fragile the israelites are, a girl can make them cry and seethe simply by saying Hitler and not backing off. Amazing.
both brown and non-aryan
Yakub was real
>Yakub was real
He still is
Did PIE religion also originate there?
Yes. PIE religion and pantheon stems from typically personified Near Eastern weather gods.
no, PIE myths are closer to Native American ones than to MENA ones.
Ancient Near Easterners werent related to Modern Ones, they had more CHG and ANF, two groups closer to Europeans than to Arabs.
The Islamic world is a massive Arab copefest because theyre all paternally J (CHG) while having as much CHG DNA as Anglo-Saxons lmao.
Total replacement of proto-Arab/Iraqi/Turk/Syrian/Iranian/Semite males by Europoids.
Proto-Arabs were J. Their CHG paternal DNA is what distinguish Arabs from Semites.
Laughable. PIE myths are clearly derived from MENA myths and religious belief systems. That’s because Europeans themselves are of MENA origin.
Modern MENAs are mainly the same as ancient ones. The ones who experienced "total replacement" were IE European males who got raped by Haplo R Mongoloids.
Does this mean it came from Maykop?
Possibly older
no, unless it was non-genetic. Maykop is too late.
The more obvious candidate is Meshoko. I'm not sure how well it models though. The issues with them is they aren't really that sophisticated (flint tools), are roughly contemporaneous to when we know the full WSH profile is formed, and the archeology seems to signal the reverse movement.
So you probably want something different to make the argument work. I have no clue what that would be. It can't be any later than 4200BC and preferably a few hundred years earlier it would have arrived on the southern Steppe.
We also have samples from Maykop, the "Caucasus" ones (from the Southern Caucasus) cluster on PCA near modern-day Georgians, the "Steppe" ones (from the north) are eneolithic steppe+ANE/Native American-related mutts (most likely admixed with Western Siberian Hunter-gatherer-like populations). The steppe outliers are mutt mixes from the former two.
What I find fascinating is that Proto-Semitic may have been right next to this. This is also supported by the presence of a Semitic loanword in PIE - tawros. If both are CHG-derived groups and former neighbors, this makes perfect sense.
>tawros
Bull? Looks like tavros (ταύρος)
The bull was a very important near eastern symbol associated with CHG/Iran in minoans
Crazy that it happened close to mount ararat. PIE = japeth and semitic = shem
Zero actual implications. Nothing happens
The ego of some larpers (most not even in europe lol) is just hurt
picrel
Nothing? Why is this being treated as a revelation? Their ancestors had to come from somewhere. Are they supposed to have just sprung up from the ground? It's not even saying PIE comes from the Caucasus, it's saying that PIE derived from an earlier language family from the Caucasus.
Haplo-obsessed /misc/cels larping as Nordic steppeBlack folk presumed PIE came from hyperborea, from pvre aryan gods who sprang from the soil, so this upsets them for some reason.
>mischaracterizing his detractors
where are you from again?
PIE people definitely were not from West Asia, they have a very clear continuity with BHG-proto-steppe-Steppe/CWC.
and where are you from again?
They mixed with and spoke the language of southern migrant people, the caucasians.
Basically why there's so much seething.
There is no archeological trace of southern caucasians entering the PC Steppe en masse. Especially not in the key timeframe for CHG-EHG admixture (4500BC at the very latest).
Yeah, the only evidence is genetic lol.
This is just another case of a paper having some bait title to get people to talk about and misrepresent it's conclusions.
You didn't read the paper.
The vast majority of the CHG migration into the steppes happened prior to 6.500 BC. The southern arc paper argues that there was a second wave of CHG migration into the steppes which had been unidentified before, but that second wave was much, much, much smaller.
>The vast majority of the CHG migration into the steppes happened prior to 6.500 BC. The southern arc paper argues that there was a second wave of CHG migration into the steppes which had been unidentified before, but that second wave was much, much, much smaller.
First wave added 20-25% chg
Second wave doubled that. Either same size or bigger
Barcin has levantine. And anatolia itself (with no whg) is the evidence for the 4400-4000bce migration
It isn't though. You can't even define what that means
Elite dominance hypothesis is pseudoscience and even scholars have called out this larp by anthony, see Kristinsson 2012. 0 evidence = it didn't happen until we got evidence that it did
>Barcin has levantine. And anatolia itself (with no whg) is the evidence for the 4400-4000bce migration
Whatever happened in Anatolia isn't evidence for how WSH is formed. This is basic logic (this is coming from someone open to a caucasian urheimat).
>First wave added 20-25% chg
>Second wave doubled that. Either same size or bigger
Literally no evidence for that. There is no relevant steppe sample that's 60% CHG derived. EHG represents the main share of yamnaya and CWC ancestry.
EHG is irrelevant. WSHG is EHG/CHG. This already points to it origin somewhere in the South (South Russia that is, I disagree with the Armenian homeland hypothesis).
I think Progress is around 60% CHG, though.
WSH - Western Steppe Herders*
>This already points to it origin somewhere in the South (South Russia that is
Yeah so this is the theory accepted by mainline anthropologists and archeogeneticists. This was also present in the southern arc paper as the hypothesis A. Unless you accept the Armenian origin (hypothesis B) this paper doesn't change the well established fact that the urheimat of the PIE languages is South-Western Russia.
Why would he post that information on twitter instead of on the paper? Makes me doubt of the vericity of it all.
>when analyzing the x chromosomes to determine sex bias. Both chg migrations were driven primarily by men
Yamnaya lineages are found in Armenia today, while native Armenian lineages aren't found in Europe. What you are telling me is that there were two massive migrations of men from the south caucasus into the steppe which left no descendants in the steppe. And instead you do find the descendants of steppe men in the south caucasus. This makes no sense.
>well established fact
you're mistaking fact for consensus. There's also no analysis of the number of scholars and what they actually say (about the urheimat specifically, not "oh it came in europe from there therefore this is where it first appeared) and you won't provide any since you're using it as an appeal to authority
Touch grass
>Yamnaya lineages are found in Armenia today, while native Armenian lineages aren't found in Europe
I don't understand what you mean by this since it seems irrelevant
>What you are telling me is that there were two massive migrations
Not really massive. One added 20%, the other an additional 30%. The population numbers were low back then so only proportionally they were significant
>of men
primarily men. Not entirely
>from the south caucasus into the steppe which left no descendants in the steppe
We don't know this yet, further studies are required, especially from the early stages of admixture
"descendants" is also wrong. It left plenty of descendants with 30% extra chg. You're talking about lineages, not descend in general. Descent is autosomal
>And instead you do find the [haplo]descendants of steppe men in the south caucasus. This makes no sense.
But not before in the steppe. And again, even if you did, these could have dominated later, especially in the light of the sex bias. Kind of like r1b was extinguished from CWC despite early samples having it
I don't understand the point you're trying to make
60% of mtDNA in Yamna is CHG
No. We don't really know what is CHG mtDNA in the first place. It's just 2 samples vs 30 or more Yamnaya+Afanasievo.
We know perfectly well what mtDNA EHG had.
But I do think it was mostly a balanced migration of CHG males and females, at some point between 10000 and 6000 BC.
The EHG vs CHG ratio in the X-chromosomes of Yamnaya matches realistic estimates of autosomal admixture(2:1 EHG-CHG).
I imagined scenario of EHG groups mixing somewhere North of Caucasus becoming 50%+ CHG and expanding North. I think the mixing probably happened pretty early, after LGM. Expansion North happened later, in the Mesolithic.
I doubt we will find pure CHG anywhere in Russia. The people who mixed with EHG to produce steppe ancestry were already a mix of EHG/CHG, but with more CHG.
the Y/X CHG sex bias thing is relevant depending on where you think the CHG came from. If you believe Lazaridis, that it came from the South, then it is reasonable evidence for an intrusion.
If you believe Allentoft and the CHG is local, and driven by Don River foragers, then it is also accounted for.
Personally I'm waiting for future studies to be sure
Also if the CHG is from the balkans or wherever, it got to there from somewhere and it should be analyzed for haboring other ancestries. It most likely had anatolian
Looks like steppe women were fat and ugly and their lineages were wiped out
Sex bias is calculated from the x chromosome btw, not haplos, especially spread throughout time
Mesolithic HGs living in Northern Caucasian steppes is my bet. They already carried R1b from their ANE ancestors and had 50%+ CHG. They were the ones who expanded throughout the steppe bringing CHG to Khvalynsk. Later on they expanded West as Sredni Stog.
The Don foragers don't have enough CHG, but that's because they are too far North.
Wasn't the first admixture dated to neolithic? Second one around 4300bce
>Mesolithic HGs living in Northern Caucasian steppes is my bet.
VGH Kalmykia, the homeland...
They came from southern Caucasia.
Weird how North-East Caucasians actually resemble the original PIE population in the Steppe more than southern Caucasians or north-west Caucasians by a long shot.
>There is no relevant steppe sample that's 60% CHG derived.
Yeah no shit? Originally it was 20-25% chg and the rest ehg. Then this absorbed another wave and finally became 50-50. Chg(+anatolian) ancestry doubled (in fact more than double)
Lazaridis has posted admixture percentages in his twittee too, when analyzing the x chromosomes to determine sex bias. Both chg migrations were driven primarily by men
So what haplogroups did these men have? Some rare J1 subclades only found once or not at all?
No idea, we don't have samples from the initial population. A useful method would be to compare the post- haplogroups to the pre- ones if they're available, and hg formation dates
J1 is likely since it was found in karelia but I don't know, it's not like we have a lot of samples of chgs and early ehgs from those areas
Meshoko was J2.
The J1 in Khvalynsk, Karelia etc appears to be local (CHG with no Barcin/PPN).
Interestingly, all the Kura Araxes is J1. ChL East Anatolia is J1 and J2.
>It isn't though. You can't even define what that means
the mounds are a matter of long standing historical record, without reservation I mean to say you lack elementary background knowledge of this subject
linguistics too has testified so far as that end
>pseudoscience
oof
reaching
The paper doesn't provide genetic evidence for amigration event. It provides evidence that you *can* model Yamnaya with an unidentified CHG+PPN source. Obviously you can model it differently, too.
Interestingly half of the Steppe samples in supplemental file 5 seem to prefer Barcin to PPN (look at the Afanasievo samples).
lol
lol
most of the historical evidence for the steppe hypothesis is archaeological
Yes. Autists can't literally explain the complete lack of steppe admixture in anatolia, and will make whatever cope to deny the latest papers.
Yop.
>Autists can't literally explain the complete lack of steppe admixture in anatolia
Language can spread without DNA. See how French and Latin were brought to England by Normans, not Italians. It's possible that the Proto-Anatolians were themselves a conquered people that switched to an IE language and then went on to conquer Anatolia. Besides, there was some steppe DNA detected in Western Anatolia.
>Besides, there was some steppe DNA detected in Western
And most of their samples are from the East, particularly in the periods where it is unclear if PIE would even have been spoken in Anatolia.
PIE came from West Asia, have you been living under a rock or are you just coping?
>from West Asia
Weren't they from the Tarim Basin?
>PIE people
Anatolian chalcolithic
>they have a very clear continuity
there hasn't been continuity on the steppe since forever. Khvalynsk were different than yamnaya and early cwc, cwc proper was different, sintashta/andronovo were different, bell beakers were different
Steppe history is just continuous racemixing
Much to think about, discuss and sample more extensively in the future.
>What are the implications of this?
A lot of coping and a lot of seething
>based Lazaridis has we wuzzers on excess doses of copium
Lmao
They really liked that blog post by Thuletide, huh?
I remember arguing with a boomer a few months ago. Dude had read only anthony (2007) and nothing else and rejected every single argument or contrary evidence (even on basis of "lol he's not as accomplished as anthony! Invalid!") while being condescending. I hate dunning kruger boomeroids
also there's something about the not being able to take any criticism. They get easily hurt and start sperging
I swear it's dunning kruger and a feeling of their intelligence being threatened
Imagine unironically shilling for churka origin of European languages.
Lazardis and Reich have obvious israelite agendas.
>churka origin of European languages
Funny, kurgan hypothesis argues exactly this since the people are 50% near eastern and 50% east of the urals siberian. West asians are more related to europe due to their high dzudzuana admixture, unlike steppoids
so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
CHG as PIE doesn't make much sense imo
also "Proto-Indo-Anatolian" as a definition doesn't make any sense, no Anatolian language was widely spoken in the Indian subcontinent ever and it seems they hyphenate their idea just as a way of implying the connection with PIE their abstract conduced
all I'm really saying here is they could have picked a better name and are overreaching
I don't see what all the fuss is about, whether it was CHG or EHG. What gives bros?
CHG men and EHG women technically
Chadzaridis confirmed it on his twitter
https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1563953743535685637
Doesn't he say this was the case for Yamnaya (also cucked by I2) and not CWC specifically? The whole thing seems facetious.
That I2 is effectively indigenous to the Steppe. It'll show up in Sredni too.
I don't really doubt that necessarily. Likely from some cultural fusion population like Iron gates ultimately.
Iosif Lazaridis
@iosif_lazaridis
·
Aug 28
Replying to
@iosif_lazaridis
The evidence for male CHG bias is not super strong so we did not dwell on this point in the Southern Arc paper. But, I thought it would be useful to report here as I want people to be aware that the data don't point to a male EHG:female CHG mix and if anything the opposite.
>not super strong
Whatever happened, CHG males didnt reproduce while EHG males did, and EHG males reproduced both North and South of the Caucasus and dominated all PIE cultures.
it doesnt, its from Cucuteni Trypillia, the turbo farmers with 1% WHG.
some giga farmer fathered a boy with a Yamnaya girl and that boy became Chief of Bulgaria.
>it doesnt, its from Cucuteni Trypillia, the turbo farmers with 1% WHG.
I2 is in the 5400 BC Don foragers from the Allentoft paper. It's pre-I-L701.
The I2 from the Bulgarian Barrow paper is from Cucuteni.
The Don Forager might be from straight up WHGs and Armenian I2 might also be from WHGs.
but the Yamnaya I2 in Europe is from Farmers.
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
Lazaridis addresses that criticism in this thread https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1563953730499878926
"A direct test of the sex bias hypothesis is to fit the same model on the autosomes and chrX; since the chrX spends 2/3 of its life in females, under the assumption that CHG ancestry is mediated by females we'd expect more CHG ancestry on chrX than autosomes"
"The simple CHG-EHG model gives a CHG estimate of:
51.9+/- 1.3% (autosomes)
34.2+/- 8.5% (chrX)"
"In other words, the evidence is (2.1 s.e.) in favor of male CHG bias and _not_ the opposite"
"The evidence for male CHG bias is not super strong so we did not dwell on this point in the Southern Arc paper. But, I thought it would be useful to report here as I want people to be aware that the data don't point to a male EHG:female CHG mix and if anything the opposite."
>also "Proto-Indo-Anatolian" as a definition doesn't make any sense, no Anatolian language was widely spoken in the Indian subcontinent ever and it seems they hyphenate their idea just as a way of implying the connection with PIE their abstract conduced
Wasn't the name used before in academic literature?
>all I'm really saying here is they could have picked a better name and are overreaching
I agree with this.
Yeah I agree too that it's a weird name, but they do it on basis of Anatolian being a sister language to PIE and not a daughter
So PIA is PIE+Anatolian
it's not a criticism or unrealistic, just an observation of what must have gone down according to their own model and the collected evidence
Maykop, the ultimate origin of the tumulus burial tradition
also
>we
WE
>want M269 to be CHG or part of a founder effect after CHG formed the WSH profile
qrd
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
They want M269 to be CHG or part of a founder effect after CHG formed the WSH profile.
I don't think the x vs y chromosome thing from Lazaridis is very convincing because a lot of the CHG should be local (don or progress-like). Because otherwise you end up with too much PPN or Barcin related ancestry.
>I don't think the x vs y chromosome thing from Lazaridis is very convincing because a lot of the CHG should be local (don or progress-like). Because otherwise you end up with too much PPN or Barcin related ancestry.
I think he's talking about the second migration
There was already around 20% chg in the "ehg" (ehg-rich) population from the first migration
>so CHG women converted their EHG husbands to their unknown Anatolian language
That's actually not impossible. Maasai speak a Nilotic language but have substantial Cushitic Y-DNA, which implies that their language was transmitted through the maternal line.
yeah I know, crazy right?
I dont think the name implies that. They never claimed that. It can be interpreted as Anatolian and Indo being two separate branches. Which they are, but they're pushing back the date they split and where.
>no Anatolian language was widely spoken in the Indian subcontinent ever
you are a moron
homosexual
Correction: CHG comes from the caucuses.
Who knew, glad the big brains at Harvard are helping us figure this one out
CHG is obviously Chinese Hunter Gatherer. Caucasus has nothing to do with PIE. Not a single drop of caucasus blood and semen touched my pure EHGinos
The Southern Arc LARP has already been shredded. Reich is a clown with an agenda.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/08/dear-iosif.html?m=1
Just proof that both Nodicists and parents are both equally delusional when it comes to the superiority of the anatolian chad
>The Southern Arc L-ACK!
>Oh your Southern Arc paper is finished? And you brought me a copy to review? Sure I will get right one it.
Cope + seethe + dilate
>eurogenes
I read it, he doesn't say anything. Just posts g25 fake models but he'll never actually publish a paper of his own, he's just trying to save face so people will keep buying his meme calculator
Nobody has refuted Reich and Lazaridis so far and crying on your blog won't change that
this homosexual from eurogenes is the same who claimed mycenean elites would be high steppe, what credibility does he have left?
And not even catacomb, but CWC r1a
He's been wrong a frickload of times and is narcissistic and wrote about he will "no longer try to help these people"
LOL sure mate harvard is waiting for help from a 45 year old incel living in australia with an amateur hobby in genetics
Dude is throwing a tantrum because he realized that nobody actually cares about his "work" kek
The cope about Mycenean elites is pretty funny. One guy in the comments pondered if he was a hired Minoan mercenary, not realizing that it wasn't just some warrior, it's the richest early Mycenean grave ever found. He was most likely a ruler. Probably one of the first Mycenean rulers.
>we wuzzers claim Myceneans elites were high steppe so they can larp as Achilles and Odysseus and shieet
>LARP as Greeks constantly
>get BTFO by the first Lazaridis paper, cope by saying the next study will set the record straight
>get BTFO by that study with the phenotypes being Mediterranean, brown/black hair, pale to tawny skin
>new Lazaridis study comes out BTFOing gays like survive the jive and Chad pastoralist
>Mycenean elite, male, King, found at the literal Homeric Kingdom of sandy Pylos, has 0 steppe
>Myceneans resemble southern Italians and modern Greeks the most genetically, which means they were even more tawny and Mediterranean-like in those days
>i-i-it must be a Minoan mercenary!
LMAAAO life as a nordicist must be constant fricking suffering. BTFO by Mycenean art, BTFO by genetics, BTFO by every metric
>inb4 da jooz
>Mycenaeans resemble southern Italians and islander Greeks the most genetically, which means they were even more tawny and Mediterranean-like in those days
Fixed it for you. They resemble islander Greeks.
I will impregnate a Greek/southern Italian cutie so my son has those ancient Mediterranean heroic genes
>muh heroic iliad warriors.
the ones with steppe admixture and r1b who ruled over J medlets?
The ones with 75% eef and j/r1b/g haplogroups.
>Le steppe elite
Refusal of facts and making shit up to LARP in fantasy land. Many such cases!
The best thing these studies achieved was exposing all the larpers. There's still plenty of normal people disagreeing with the paper but the larpers went completely apeshit with denial and butthurt. Now they'll stay in their echochambers and will become more and more fringe
I was hoping the nordicists would give up after the selection paper was released last week.
Nordicists have troony tier IQ and both are enacting out fantasies, also most nordicists arent even nordic but either britbongs or dios mio mutts
Why would I have a problem with that?
>the original PIE population
Iranians and Armenians resemble Iran_ChL the most iirc
Anatolia_ChL*
>t.same guys that still deny the Rome paper to this day
The new cope is that Southern Italians are Anatolians
Damn, IE comes from Terronia
>the larpers
who?
>the echochamber
where?
Its going to be you perpetually denying that ancient Greeks share more DNA with modern Europeans than with Syrians, Anatolians, and Cypriots.
>the paper had a blonde greek sample
>the paper had R1b and steppe admixed Mycenaeans
lol
you said not a single one was blonde
WRONG
you said not a single one was steppe admixed
WRONG
LMAO
The blond one is a Minoan.
I was referring to the Arcadian.
Theyre all the same anyway, none of them except for the steppe rich ones deviate autosomally more than 20% from any other one.
>Arcadian
Which sample?
Not true, have a nice day
You are a low IQ moron.
>all those 0.047-0.06 scores
They don’t genetically overlap meaning modern south Italians and Greeks aren’t descended from them but they merely have related DNA. Learn to read. Those genes died out like most ancient genes. Just like today with whites overall. Successful people stop breeding and the losers eventually take over from over breeding. This is the tall tale of history.
>sample size of one
It's time for people like you to stop posting about genetics
huh? we have plenty of elite mycenaean samples now over a span of centuries. all have low steppe, richest (noblest) one has zero. They're identical to commoners
Two. There's also a female elite from the earlier study. Also, for all we know the Griffin warrior could be one of the first Mycenean kings, so it's not just some random guy.
The upcoming Biomuse study also have some nobles. They cluster with other Greeks.
These are ruler/royal samples, we have more lower status elites from the palace
Firstly no one wants to be Greek, they were stagnant illiterate failures who suckle on the teat of Nordics TODAY.
They got sacked out by the Romans a thoroughly Steppe descended race.
They got mauled and Gauled by Brennus then made a cope about why they won Thermopylae one but lost the second round despite having a larger army.
They all, even the islanders, got SLAV'D.
Secondly, Hellenic Golden Age Samples have some very high steppe individuals, and steppe admixture and Y DNA is present in Mycenaeans themselves and from Greeks in that era.
Thirdly
>muh nordicists le everyone was aryan greek
no one has ever said this, you constantly peddle this strawman because the reality shatters your ego.
Some Greeks in their Heroic Age, Golden Age, and Classical era were high in Steppe, and had Steppe Forefathers.
You can not say "Greeks are totally unrelated to Northern Europeans." because its two fold, Northern Europeans do have plenty of CHG and EEF in abundance. Greeks then and now have similar levels of CHG and share a ton of Anatolian with North Euros.
>but sirs Iam syrian arap menamuttts ami of de greks?
no, Near Easterners today are turbo rapebabies who have no connection to Greece in any era, and Greeks looked at them with nothing but contempt, seeing them as cowardly and physically weak.
While Greeks thought Gauls were low IQ, they also thought they were absurdly handsome and physically on par with the best Olympians.
Greeks both ancient and modern had/have individuals who exhibit blondism.
get over it.
Obviously Gauls weren’t low iq because formerly celtic countries are some of the smartest today
>Hellenic Golden Age
What's the date on that?
>very high steppe individuals
Highest steppe in any greek culture is around 18%
>Y DNA is present in Mycenaeans themselves and from Greeks in that era
R1b after the collapse of the mycenaean civilization, all from a single family, all with very low steppe. Richest elite grave so far had litetally 0% steppe
>Greeks both ancient and modern had/have individuals who exhibit blondism.
That's unrelated to steppe. You can easily see that from a blond minoan or a neolithic farmer
He's making this up. I follow all the archeogenetic studies, pretty much every sentence in that post is wrong.
While it's possible for some early elites to be high steppe so far there's no evidence of this. The only two samples with high steppe in Greece are MBA samples from North Greece. Both are women and their graves are not rich.
They also seem to belong to a group that was not part of the Helladic culture (the samples are dated to late Early Helladic or to Middle Helladic era - pre-Mycenean so they might not be Greeks in the first place).
Yeah I've read the archeological study (it's in Greek), the area was later occupied by mycenaeans (it has hundreds of mycenaean era graves) these two samples didn't have any mycenaean context at the MBA. No grave goods either
archeological report*
>makes a bunch of shit up to feel better about himself to cope being absolutely BTFO
The ABSOLUTE STATE of nordicist schizos
There are guys with haplogroup J and even more steppe, so that's not the best argument.
>blogspot
Top fricking kek, the ABSOLUTE STATE of we wuzzers
>What are the implications of this?
Brown hyperbrachycephalic churkas with partially mongoloid features raped proto-nordic farmers.
>partial mongoloid features
This makes the Nordicist seethe even though Saami are the archetypal Nords.
Saamis are closest to EHG
obsessed rape babies
Nordics dominated ancient Steppe society.
Not according to the latest data anon.
What latest data?
Southern Arc doesnt go into CWC or Dnieper Donets.
Dnieper Donets is irrelevant. And yes, it actually does show CWC phenotypes.
Only 15 samples because it's pre-Czech paper.
blond hair - 0%
black hair - 46.7%
brown hair - 53.3%
blue eyes - 13.3%
brown eyes - 86.7%
dark skin - 20%
intermediate skin - 80%
pale skin - 0%
Damn son
Apparently this theory got debunked within days. Good video on the topic by renowned historian Tom Rowsell:
That's cool
Where is his published paper?
Utterly crushed by /ourguy/ (even if he just politely criticized some of the wording that is being misinterpreted)
No anon, the only cucks are EEF's and their decendents
his follows are full of cuck shit
So every european are cucks including you mr 50% EEF
Not that person but Coon and Lundman already predicted without DNA that North and East Europeans have mongoloid east-baltid and ladogan substructure based on anthropology and we know that those upper paleolithic semi-mongoloid, borreby and alpinid phenotypes must be from ANE. We also have mongoloid looking EHG reconstructions and fully caucasoid looking EEF reconstructions.
Coon also said that nordics are depigmented meds and mediterranean phenotypes in Europe are from EEF. Coon categorized neolithic farmer skulls as graciel mediterraneans.
>but A-ANE wuz mongoloid
5 years
I don't post here for five years. Multiple people probably said it during that time. Already confirmed by anthropology long ago. Coon catergorized EHG as Khanty like and recent study showed them closest to north Chinese.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?346745-ANE-100-Caucasoid/page3
YOO is EHG
something is obviously wrong with this chart unless you believe norwegians are closer to chinese and igbo Black folk than to russians
How Khanty look like
Going for the 6th I see, kek
You should get a job or something if you post here obsessively everyday for over 5 years to prove that ANE caucasoid.
Sick projection my guy. Quiet nice.
you are a very recognizable poster, you are the moron that fell in love with that shitty "basal" estimate that made it plot outside of modern human continuity, you'll probably going to post that pca wiht that shitty estimate made by some guy on a forum
ehg wasn't mongoloid, people that are 90% west eurasians cannot be mongoloid
the dude is hilarious, he's been posting "Ane was mongoloid" for 5 years now. Go to the IQfy archives and search for "ANE mongoloid" without the quotes and you'll see for how long he's been seetheposting
A decent modern day example of what might've happened in Anatolia from the steppe homeland perspective is northern Mexicans, pretty often probably have less than 10% Spanish admixture and yet they speak Spanish and are colonizing the American southwest and subjugating its native white inhabitants
lolwut
The Northern Mexican states has significantly higher European ancestry % than the rest of the country. Much higher than 10%
Southern Mexicans are subjugating native American whites
If I'm getting the Anatolian through the balkans idea right, you basically need to prove 2 Hungarians happened in a row. That IE spread into a Balkan group that didn't become very steppe autosomally, and then that group spread into Anatolia and their subjects didn't become very balkan autosomally. Is this wrong?
The Balkans can be as Steppe as you want under that model. Either there is a clear autosomal contribution (like Ezero) or there is limited (like Usatovo).
The archeology/previous view would want Kumtepe-Troas-Yassitepe to have a clear signal. It would actually prefer these areas to show a contribution and the Eastern/Northern Hittite/Palaic regions to have this muted. Because the linguistic diversity is centred on the western complex.
So not necessarily to your first point and kind of to your second point.
That's not Iosif.
Unproven theory not supported by linguists or archaeologists.
Iosif said on Twitter something along the lines of, without chariots and large numbers it's unclear what advantage an intrusive IE speaking group would have had in Anatolia during the bronze age. Could be underestimating the potency of IE memes. Might not be too much of a stretch to say IE speaking individuals were on average more to much more ruthless in cases of power pursuits, maybe kind of like a puritan group in a new land vs an assimilationist group or something. An IE culture could've converted an already civilizationally decked out balkan group, then that balkan group could have brought xyz Anatolia border group under the IE meme umbrella and watched its memes and language diffuse into Anatolia. Seems less clean an explanation now, or comparably unclean an explanation than the Armenian hypothesis or at least Anatolian through the NE of Anatolia, but maybe cleanliness shouldn't be favored in humanity models.
PIE-speaking steppe groups (not to be confused with the PIA-speaking West Asians they propose for Hypothesis B) didn't have chariots, they had carts and wagons. Chariots were a late Sintashta innovation.
>chariots
PIE-speaking steppe groups (not to be confused with the PIA-speaking West Asians they propose for Hypothesis B) didn't have chariots, they had carts and wagons. Chariots were a late Sintashta innovation. Small nitpick, I know.
I wish we could have a PIE thread without morons shitflinging over whether the PIE were "blonde blue eyed chad nords" or "brown skinned mongoloids with hook noses" when in realitry every archeogeneticist is in full agreement that the PIE had fair skin, brown hair and brown eyes.
This paper has nothing to do with pigmentation, it's literally just about whether the PIE *language* originated south or north of the Caucasus mountains. But talking about language urheimat can't be used to racebait on IQfy.
>fair skin
Wrong, it was mostly intermediate.
>brown hair
Wrong, it was mostly black hair.
Weren’t CHG like 50% ANE? And EHG was 75%? PIE = still an ANE language by that logic
>Weren’t CHG like 50% ANE?
Yes.
>And EHG was 75%?
EHG varied between 10 - 75% ANE.
Is that if you include WHG as EHG?
No. It doesn’t show any inherent resemblance to Siberian and Amerindian languages, and any superficial similarities are clearly due to late EHG influence.
PIE is far, far younger than ANE.
I found that weird too. I feel like the Reich lab tends to want everything to be linear (in terms of sophistication).
It's also not clear that would be the case anyway, considering Carpatho-Balkan metallurgy exceeded much of the caucasus for quite some time.
PIE people are Soomers?
Does this mean that indo euros are part of the armenoid race?
Hahahahahahha
Feels good to be a finn
Some stuff in Anthony's book is wrong. Frankly, I think he focused way too much on steppe culture (horses, wagons, all this stuff) when the main groups that spread the language seem to be some Eastern agro-pastoralists that weren't that different from Globular Amphora people.
A ton of it is wrong. He tries to link Germanic to Usatovo, for example.
It is an intriguing book for the fact that it got a lot of stuff right despite a lack of genetic methodology.
Hence in his book Corded Ware is merely mentioned while he thinks that every pastoralist culture came from Yamnaya. In reality it really seems to be the opposite.
Anthony is biased, they are all biased. I think someone on anthrogenica said it best. People who specialize in this or that culture want to see PIE in it (the same is true for other archeological cultures too).
You can see it in Anthony's book. His specialization is the Samara region and he traces every part of PIE culture to foragers from Volga.
I bet he was disappointed when it turned out that Khvalynsk wasn't the ancestor of later steppe groups.
Yeah that actually makes a lot of sense actually, and happens even with "where this famous food originated from" meme arguments between countries. They see prestige in IE, especially pre-2015 where there was a sort of myth around them, and they want to claim that myth as their heritage
Not balanced (since there was a bias) but not 100% males either
Doubt it, such a group would not carry anatolian
unless I misunderstood what you said
Anatolian ancestry in the steppe is from Western farmers. I don't think it's from the South.
Arc paper argued that it lacks WHG ancestry. Otherwise there were three migrations into yamnaya territory (or rather pre yamnaya)
Arc paper actually says 48% ehg
Yes it says so but it's wrong. Virtually all other estimates are 2:1. It's just one data point and not breaking research with new methods.
In that case future studies will confirm or reject
Btw there's already another study out (different team) tracing two CHG migrations in yamnaya, as the arc paper finds. Posted by lazaridis on his twitter around a week ago.
I don't buy it. We have Progress/Voynuchka samples with enough CHG to produce steppe groups. I don't know why they confuse the picture so much inventing new migrations that probably never took place.
There was an apparent bias yes, but the autosomal admixture estimate does not match reality for whatever reason. Yamnaya is not 50-50.
Im gonna laugh hard when all the "indo-evropean traditions and cvltvre" that are mostly attested in greece iran and india end up being near eastern in origin. Man, all this larping gone to waste by people who thought that someone else's ancestors are their ancestors
lol davidski and his various nuthuggers from memegenica are losing their minds over this
so when will they be publishing their work? lmao
>But here's my prediction: Steppe_EMBA only has 10-15% admixture from the post-Mesolithic Near East
More like 30%
>and basically all of this comes via female mediated gene flow
Mostly male mediated
>On the other hand, the widely publicized hypothesis that the Yamnaya population is a ~50/50 mixture between indigenous Eastern European hunter-gatherers and Near Eastern migrants never looked right to me. So I'm glad that it's now dead and buried.
That's what it is though, 50/50. Or rather less than 50% on both sides to make room for the extra anatolian and levantine
Also EHGs aren't indigenous just like a 2/3 somali 1/3 swedish speciment isn't an indigenous swede
>Those of you not up to date with this topic, all you need to know is
Oh I'm sure a toilet cleaner's schizo blog is all I need to know.
>that the Yamnaya genotype
Half of which consists of people who were 2/3 east of the urals siberian and the other half is west asian. Only 1/6 is actually from europe (the whg in ehgs)
>existed in Eastern Europe at least a thousand years before Yamnaya
That population went extinct
>and, moreover, the Yamnaya people are largely derived from Eastern European foragers already rich in Near Eastern-related ancestry.
20% isn't rich. They derive from ehgs that got fricked by male mediated west asian geneflow and the resulting population got fricked again by male mediated west asian geneflow increasing its overall near eastern dna to 50%
>the narrative that waves of Near Eastern migrants moved into prehistoric Eastern Europe, leading to the emergence of the Yamnaya culture and even the Proto-Indo-European language, is still being pushed by some notable scientists working with ancient DNA.
Kek he misspelled "the truth the scientific evidence points at" as "narrative". Imagine coping this hard especially when there are two (2) studies finding the same thing, not just Lazaridis
>My hope is that, considering the latest revelations about the genetic origins of the Yamnaya people, these scientists can embrace a more nuanced view. How about something like this?
Bargaining stage of grief. Also he thinks anyone gives a shit about what he thinks, must be all the reflection from the toilet water when he cleans the bowls that makes him fall in love with his reflection, a modern narcissus
>- people moved around, and they were especially mobile on the Eastern European steppe from the Eneolithic onwards
Sure. Explains why they racemixed so often and got to the western steppe from east of the urals in the first place
>- when they made contact they sometimes mixed, so there was admixture between far flung steppe groups
Nope, all evidence points to ehgs mixing with west asian chgs and then mixing again with them. If they mixed with other groups on the steppe it did not affect their genome
>- since population densities on the steppe were low until the Yamnaya period, minor admixture that entered the steppe during the Neolithic and Eneolithic wasn't dilluted easily.
Entered twice as the studies show, once up to 20% and then it increased to 50%. Both male mediated, second one around 4400-4000bce
Fricking yikes, imagine having to come up with all this cope just because you're butthurt at genetic studies
what's his problem exactly?
he doesn't say why he believes it didn't happen
just that he believes it didn't
>R-M269 are all West Asian.
well there are some samples in iran without ehg ancestry
if future studies confirm then yes m269 would be west asian
unless im remembering the wrong r1b in the iran samples
>well there are some samples in iran without ehg ancestry
Most of them have EHG, although a few don't
Same with the Armenian samples
>although a few don't
Case in point. Further analysis will provide insight
I'm not even against a scenario of steppe lineages eventually dominating, it doesn't even make a difference. Although 2103 would be more of a yamnaya lineage than a "steppe" (let alone ehg) one since its formation date is pretty recent
His problem is that the conditions that were discovered, he considers proof of language transfer. He applies similar standards to CWC/Yamnaya so he has to apply them in this case as well, hence his complete denial.
Luckily for him this isn't guaranteed to spread a language. But then he would also have to give up his confidence of other IE languages spreading this way (in fact we already have evidence where they didn't).
It's just panic mode cope, he'll get over it eventually.
>But then he would also have to give up his confidence of other IE languages spreading this way (in fact we already have evidence where they didn't).
But they literally did? We know because we saw the result of those migrations.
>20% isn't rich. They derive from ehgs that got fricked by male mediated west asian geneflow and the resulting population got fricked again by male mediated west asian geneflow increasing its overall near eastern dna to 50%
yes I'm sure I2, R1a and R-M269 are all West Asian.
X chromosome has been analyzed, it was male mediated.
>haplos
Try and find them on the steppe on a population without CHG. Not that they're straight from west asia, some appeared after the mixing
Not to mention these are non-sequitur for the original raping of ehg females (already raped once) by chg males
>X chromosome has been analyzed, it was male mediated.
Most of the CHG is local.
>Try and find them on the steppe on a population without CHG
see above
>Not that they're straight from west asia
Yet not a single verifiable west asian male lineage survived? In any post-stog culture?
>inb4 Afanasievo J1
this is the same clade as Khvalynsk I6735 which is all local CHG
>Most of the CHG is local.
It isn't. Only 20% of it is, the rest 30% isn't. To studies out on this, dating the admixture. It's over
>Yet not a single verifiable west asian male lineage survived?
We don't know the ydna of the second migration
Furthermore, this could have happened centuries after from a local tribe taking over others. Doesn't day much especially in the light of previous "ehg" lineages not surviving either.
>To studies out on this, dating the admixture
If you mean the Patterson paper per his words DATES isn't especially accurate without proximate sources.
FWIW expect samples far older.
>Only 20% of it is, the rest 30% isn't.
haha the only proximate source is 40% Barcin/Levantine and 60% CHG.
Ergo, you need much more don and progress.
And that's assuming zero EEF contribution.
Hence why I think more studies are necessary. Although it seems convincing, unless ofcourse overturned in the future
>the only proximate source is 40% Barcin/Levantine and 60% CHG.
My bad, should have clarified 20% and 30% near eastern/west asian/southern arc instead of just CHG. After all that's their main argument (part Anatolian)
I think it's a fine (or rather, plausible) argument based on what we have. I would read the supplemental if you haven't.
My only qualms are the archeology and related mechanism representing language shift.
>If West Asian males didn't participate in the spread of CHG ancestry then all of it would be spread by females and hence 2/3 of the ancestry on the chrX would be CHG; it's actually 34.2+/-8.5%, i.e. 3.9 s.e. lower. That scenario is dead in the water.
>Your claim was that languages must have been transmitted by men and this disproved our model. It is clear that men transmitted CHG ancestry and the EHG men:CHG women model is wrong. The fact that certain lineages came to dominate the Yamnaya and CWC is interesting but...
>... doesn't really tell us anything about the genetic composition of the admixing populations of a thousand years earlier when the successful lineages were nowhere to be seen if they existed at all.
>Good question; these are Yamnaya cluster samples.
>Results on RUS_Khvalynsk_Eneol (autosomal/chrX)
>21.5 78.5 (s.e.=1.7)
>-7.6 107.6 (s.e.=15.4)
>Results on RUS_Eneol_Piedmont
>55.5 44.5 (s.e.=1.7)
>10.8 89.2 (s.e.=7.1)
>As we say in the supplement, we are uncertain of which is the northern Eneolithic source contributing to the Yamnaya cluster individuals, but the two Eneolithic published populations appear to be in the same direction (paucity of CHG admixture on chrX).
@iosif_lazaridis
one of the butthurt larpers who harped about the male/female ratio was this supposed """european"""
Dude looks 50-75% sub-saharan with albinism and no soul. Grim
Yamnaya has CHG MtDNA.
It has no CHG Y DNA.
Yamnaya has EHG MtDNA.
The spread of CHG DNA was mediated by CHG rich females and European males.
>b-b-but
if it was CHG male related, why did their balls stop working?
This is not how that works. Yamnaya is the result of a later founder effect, it's perfectly possible that CHG was male mediated.
>it's perfectly possible that CHG was male mediated
nah its not possible when you have CHG MtDNA.
You can say CHG males contributed and then got cucked out of existence, but you cant say it was male mediated because steppe BVLLs were cooming into proto-MENA.
And what is CHG mtDNA? Both Caucasus and the steppe have similar mtDNA, so I don't see your point.
CHG
H13c and K3, steppe - U, R, probably some others, H2 maybe.
brutal redpill, EEF and CHG shared the same maternal ancestors via Dzudzu descent.
>it's perfectly possible that CHG was male mediated
The possibility is extremely low, almost non-existent even, considering the data we have.
The weird thing is for me is that, wouldn't the better evidence be where the Barcin/PPN ancestry is found on the x/y chromosomes?
Because then you would be able to deduce how the hypothesized CHG+PPN source is mediated (assuming this is even a reliable method).
I'm neutral about this whole thing. In fact, I'm in the anti-steppe camp as I hate the stupid nomad Black folk, but I don't delude myself that PIE came from the South. Archeology and genetics do not show that. They push this theory really hard, but they have very little evidence for this.
In fact, I doubt pure CHG ever lived in North Caucasus, let alone on the Russian steppes.
There's no a cline going from CHG to steppe foragers. There's a cline going from EHG to Yamnaya/like, Progress-like individuals. It's how Khvalynsk look like and how Don foragers look like.
Expansion from Caucasus? Sure. But not from the South and not of pure CHG. It was an expansion of Progress/Voynuchka like people.
as regards the Anatolian urheimat hypothesis, I honestly don't rule it out
affixation to a single model or idea is always ill founded
rather I factor in the evidence as a whole
all of it taken together is distributed rather evenly around a locus, the Black Sea
once a freshwater lake, an breach event with the Mediterranean sometime in the middle holocene lead to it's salinization and flooding of uncertain magnitude and onset
the areas immediately surrounding the Black Sea lake at that time, one example being the Sea of Azov where the remains of a neolithic settlement somehow remained, were inundated and their biomass settled to the bottom of the Black Sea (releasing dangerous levels of anaerobic methane gas to this day)
there was once, a very long time ago, a culture common to the rim of that lake, Caucasians, Anatolians, Balkans, Vkrainians all
it is there I could suppose PIE coalesced if I were so inclined
i think it mean browner shade people are sunburnt more and white are aryans