so where do you get the idea purgatory exists?
honest question, Catholicism is fricking baffling to me
2 years ago
Anonymous
>so where do you get the idea purgatory exists?
Among other things, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 describes a state of existence in the afterlife where souls are being purified in some fashion based on the works they’ve done in life, whether for good or bad. This state of existence is not heaven, because the individual going through the purifying fire is suffering loss. And it can’t be hell, because the individual is guaranteed salvation. That pretty much fits the bill of purgatory: “[The] final purification of the elect . . . so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).
>the prison can't be hell, since no one escapes hell
moronic pic
>>the prison can't be hell, since no one escapes hell
"The Apostles’ Creed contains this line in Latin: descendit ad inferos. In older English the word inferos was rendered as “hell,” but it was understood not to mean the place of the damned. It meant the temporary state where the just who died in pre-Christian times were kept, waiting for heaven to be opened to them. This place is commonly called the Limbo of the Fathers."
Source: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-did-christ-visit-hell-after-his-death-0
Read the Great Divorce for the best ever explanation of heaven, hell, and what you might call purgatory. It works for all Christians too, it's just brilliant and very short.
Hell is just the absence of God, which you can only feel by rejecting God. Only those who reject God by sinning will “go” to Hell. Before Christ came to give us the Truth, we couldn’t really reject God in the same way that you could not reject someone you don’t know. But Christ sacrificed himself so that we can know the Truth, and thus turn towards God.
My thought process with this question was that if hell was a core part of Jesus' teachings he would've made it very clear to his followers.
He was clear about god coming down to earth to establish a new kingdom for his followers so there has to be this level of clarity for hell too right?
But the only sources for hell (not Gehenna) as eternal fiery torment are parables that need to be interpreted with the conclusion already made to reflect it.
That for me just isn't convincing.
The book of Enoch clearly explains the afterlife. It was cut because is clearly mentioned Jesus before he was alive and the israelites hate him so much they trimmed out their most interesting holy book. In short when you die you're be in the pre-judgement plane waiting for the final day, based on how you lived you life of earth you be place in a good or bad part of it. During final judgement if you're still full of sin you get fast on the lake of fire and burned forever. Currently no human soul is in hell since judgment day hasn't happened, however various rebellious angles are currently being burned. The gist is the soul is eternal so if you can't snuff it you the next best thing is to subject it to endless pain.
>It was cut because is clearly mentioned Jesus before he was alive and the israelites hate him so much
This is correct. Also where Jesus got his favorite title from, Son of Man. The only book that uses the phrase as a title to describe the coming messiah.
>The gist is the soul is eternal so if you can't snuff it you the next best thing is to subject it to endless pain.
You know your stuff. It's rare to meet people who reflect actual Christianity as it was in the 1st and 2nd century.
>All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked, for whom it were better that they were not deathless. For, punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and not dying, it is impossible for them to have a period put to their misery. >Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.581
Some dimension where your soul burns forever. I dont think souls feel pain I think God makes it so the interaction between a soul and the "fire" of Hell causes a soul to hallucinate ridiculous pain.
Yes it's real but then again I am a Christian so will be wrong according to some.
God waited as long as was required in order to maximise the efficacy of the plan.
He has our best interests at heart so has good reason to reveal something whenever He so chooses.
Jesus warns us about it. It's not a problem that people had died before He came. This is because when He died, He preached to everyone who had died and anyone who believed in Him will be counted among the faithful who will be saved at the last day.
Disagree all you like, but I'm just answering a question.
>Everything was made by God, so God made hell. Why? Why did he build an eternal torture prison for his political enemies?
Hell is more in the nature of a *state* than a *place*. It is the state of *willful separation from God*, or else the state of *active, eternal, rejection of God's love*; which, inevitably, leads to suffering because God is the source of our being and of all that is good. In other words, hell is the natural result of sin, which is the very opposite of God's will.
Hell was not a pre-existing place waiting to be populated. Hell was created by the fall of the angels, when they separated themselves from God.
If anyone sends us to hell, then, we send ourselves there, put ourselves in that state of separation, through the choices we make. Because we are, in the end, the sum and substances of the choices we make.
As C.S. Lewis puts it in his books The Great Divorce and God in the Dock:
>"It's not a question of God 'sending' us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud."
>"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."
The Bible tells a parable of a vineyard gardener pruning the vines. He cuts fruitless vines and grafts others onto healthy fruitful ones.
The ones which are cut for bearing no fruit are pilled up in a corner and burned.
Hell is merely the pile of unfruitful sticks. If people are not fruitful and live as God invites them to, then they won't be counted among the saved.
The saved in the parable are those young shoots grafted onto the strong vine, Jesus.
Hell isn't a place to tortue his political enemies. It's a place where one goes by default through severing the relationship to Him. Someone in Hell isn't a political enemy, but someone who decided to not live the way God hoped.
You sever the relationship through sin though it can be forgiven until the last day. After which, time is up.
To live as God invites you to is to be truly alive as you possibly can be. To sin is the opposite. It's to wish to be away from God.
At the last day, knowing that through your sin you want nothing to do with Him, He lets you go. You enter Hell and because you don't have your sins atoned for, you face the punishment yourself.
If Hell wasn't eternal, any amount of punishment in it would be worth the eternal bliss of heaven. So you could cheat the system by sinning as much as you please here and now, suffer for a million years in Hell and then experience heaven for an infinitely longer period.
>If Hell wasn't eternal, any amount of punishment in it would be worth the eternal bliss of heaven. So you could cheat the system by sinning as much as you please here and now, suffer for a million years in Hell and then experience heaven for an infinitely longer period.
But the punishment in purgatory (which I've heard can be as painful as that of Hell), though temporary, still motivates many Christians to be more virtuous in order to reduce the time they may have to spend there. Why wouldn't a hypothetical non-eternal Hell do the same?
2 years ago
Anonymous
It might motivate, as might a temporary Hell but it would still be possible to game the system. So I believe Hell is rightly eternal.
It is but it's only a place of torture. When you die you go to the waiting plane, there people are separated based on how they lived their life on earth. Sinners go to a shitty place but technically can still be written in the book of life. If you completely fail though you're turned physical once more and burned for eternity in the lake of fire. No escape, no relief, no getting used to it, constant agony.
its punishment for being a piece of shit. The problem is pieces of shit catched on and started threatening people with it to make money and gain status
No one has been to heaven or hell yet. That happens after judgement day. Right now, everyone goes to shoel, the abode of the dead. There are good and bad places there. But after judgement day, those told to depart from Jesus will be cast into hell where they are basically tortured forever.
What I wonder is if Hell is really real and God is all legit, why does it look exactly like a shitty tale to scare children in line? No matter how you think about it, so long as you don't assume Abrahamism first and work backwards, but instead think about what a God would logically be like philosophically, the eternal femur breaker is absurd. It's a very dumb and obviously human invention.
Talking bushes and magical israelites aren’t real you infantile psycho.
What if all Christians are going to hell for believing in the wrong god?
This image forgets purgatory.
Also it assumes being a moral person isn't common sense.
Purgatory isn't in the bible
Uhh catholicbros??
Purrrrrrrrrgatory.
Huh, pretty interesting.
>the only verse that's twisted to promote purgatory is about getting right with God BEFORE judgement, not after
>the prison can't be hell, since no one escapes hell
moronic pic
It says no where in the bible that only the bible is to be a source of truth
it does say that other things claiming to be the truth are false, though
so where do you get the idea purgatory exists?
honest question, Catholicism is fricking baffling to me
>so where do you get the idea purgatory exists?
Among other things, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 describes a state of existence in the afterlife where souls are being purified in some fashion based on the works they’ve done in life, whether for good or bad. This state of existence is not heaven, because the individual going through the purifying fire is suffering loss. And it can’t be hell, because the individual is guaranteed salvation. That pretty much fits the bill of purgatory: “[The] final purification of the elect . . . so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).
>>the prison can't be hell, since no one escapes hell
"The Apostles’ Creed contains this line in Latin: descendit ad inferos. In older English the word inferos was rendered as “hell,” but it was understood not to mean the place of the damned. It meant the temporary state where the just who died in pre-Christian times were kept, waiting for heaven to be opened to them. This place is commonly called the Limbo of the Fathers."
Source: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-did-christ-visit-hell-after-his-death-0
sola scriptura isn't in the bible either
Who told you that?
https://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-proof-texts.htm
>b-but there's still purgatory for virtuous pagans
cope, why weren't they warned about hell?
>being a moral person is common sense.
If it was common sense we wouldn't need morality
You avoid hell by believing in Jesus, not by being moral
Read the Great Divorce for the best ever explanation of heaven, hell, and what you might call purgatory. It works for all Christians too, it's just brilliant and very short.
>What is hell? Is it real?
I agree with .
I also think this video is well done and may be helpful:
Hell is just the absence of God, which you can only feel by rejecting God. Only those who reject God by sinning will “go” to Hell. Before Christ came to give us the Truth, we couldn’t really reject God in the same way that you could not reject someone you don’t know. But Christ sacrificed himself so that we can know the Truth, and thus turn towards God.
People who lie against God go to Hell. That includes christians obviously.
As real as you or I and I'm a big titty goth chick!
My thought process with this question was that if hell was a core part of Jesus' teachings he would've made it very clear to his followers.
He was clear about god coming down to earth to establish a new kingdom for his followers so there has to be this level of clarity for hell too right?
But the only sources for hell (not Gehenna) as eternal fiery torment are parables that need to be interpreted with the conclusion already made to reflect it.
That for me just isn't convincing.
The book of Enoch clearly explains the afterlife. It was cut because is clearly mentioned Jesus before he was alive and the israelites hate him so much they trimmed out their most interesting holy book. In short when you die you're be in the pre-judgement plane waiting for the final day, based on how you lived you life of earth you be place in a good or bad part of it. During final judgement if you're still full of sin you get fast on the lake of fire and burned forever. Currently no human soul is in hell since judgment day hasn't happened, however various rebellious angles are currently being burned. The gist is the soul is eternal so if you can't snuff it you the next best thing is to subject it to endless pain.
>It was cut because is clearly mentioned Jesus before he was alive and the israelites hate him so much
This is correct. Also where Jesus got his favorite title from, Son of Man. The only book that uses the phrase as a title to describe the coming messiah.
>The gist is the soul is eternal so if you can't snuff it you the next best thing is to subject it to endless pain.
You know your stuff. It's rare to meet people who reflect actual Christianity as it was in the 1st and 2nd century.
>All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked, for whom it were better that they were not deathless. For, punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and not dying, it is impossible for them to have a period put to their misery.
>Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.581
Some dimension where your soul burns forever. I dont think souls feel pain I think God makes it so the interaction between a soul and the "fire" of Hell causes a soul to hallucinate ridiculous pain.
Yes it's real but then again I am a Christian so will be wrong according to some.
God waited as long as was required in order to maximise the efficacy of the plan.
He has our best interests at heart so has good reason to reveal something whenever He so chooses.
Jesus warns us about it. It's not a problem that people had died before He came. This is because when He died, He preached to everyone who had died and anyone who believed in Him will be counted among the faithful who will be saved at the last day.
Disagree all you like, but I'm just answering a question.
Everything was made by God, so God made hell. Why? Why did he build an eternal torture prison for his political enemies?
>Everything was made by God, so God made hell. Why? Why did he build an eternal torture prison for his political enemies?
Hell is more in the nature of a *state* than a *place*. It is the state of *willful separation from God*, or else the state of *active, eternal, rejection of God's love*; which, inevitably, leads to suffering because God is the source of our being and of all that is good. In other words, hell is the natural result of sin, which is the very opposite of God's will.
Hell was not a pre-existing place waiting to be populated. Hell was created by the fall of the angels, when they separated themselves from God.
If anyone sends us to hell, then, we send ourselves there, put ourselves in that state of separation, through the choices we make. Because we are, in the end, the sum and substances of the choices we make.
As C.S. Lewis puts it in his books The Great Divorce and God in the Dock:
>"It's not a question of God 'sending' us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud."
>"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."
>"The doors of hell are locked from the inside"
The Bible tells a parable of a vineyard gardener pruning the vines. He cuts fruitless vines and grafts others onto healthy fruitful ones.
The ones which are cut for bearing no fruit are pilled up in a corner and burned.
Hell is merely the pile of unfruitful sticks. If people are not fruitful and live as God invites them to, then they won't be counted among the saved.
The saved in the parable are those young shoots grafted onto the strong vine, Jesus.
Hell isn't a place to tortue his political enemies. It's a place where one goes by default through severing the relationship to Him. Someone in Hell isn't a political enemy, but someone who decided to not live the way God hoped.
You sever the relationship through sin though it can be forgiven until the last day. After which, time is up.
To live as God invites you to is to be truly alive as you possibly can be. To sin is the opposite. It's to wish to be away from God.
At the last day, knowing that through your sin you want nothing to do with Him, He lets you go. You enter Hell and because you don't have your sins atoned for, you face the punishment yourself.
If Hell wasn't eternal, any amount of punishment in it would be worth the eternal bliss of heaven. So you could cheat the system by sinning as much as you please here and now, suffer for a million years in Hell and then experience heaven for an infinitely longer period.
>If Hell wasn't eternal, any amount of punishment in it would be worth the eternal bliss of heaven. So you could cheat the system by sinning as much as you please here and now, suffer for a million years in Hell and then experience heaven for an infinitely longer period.
But the punishment in purgatory (which I've heard can be as painful as that of Hell), though temporary, still motivates many Christians to be more virtuous in order to reduce the time they may have to spend there. Why wouldn't a hypothetical non-eternal Hell do the same?
It might motivate, as might a temporary Hell but it would still be possible to game the system. So I believe Hell is rightly eternal.
It is but it's only a place of torture. When you die you go to the waiting plane, there people are separated based on how they lived their life on earth. Sinners go to a shitty place but technically can still be written in the book of life. If you completely fail though you're turned physical once more and burned for eternity in the lake of fire. No escape, no relief, no getting used to it, constant agony.
its punishment for being a piece of shit. The problem is pieces of shit catched on and started threatening people with it to make money and gain status
No one has been to heaven or hell yet. That happens after judgement day. Right now, everyone goes to shoel, the abode of the dead. There are good and bad places there. But after judgement day, those told to depart from Jesus will be cast into hell where they are basically tortured forever.
What I wonder is if Hell is really real and God is all legit, why does it look exactly like a shitty tale to scare children in line? No matter how you think about it, so long as you don't assume Abrahamism first and work backwards, but instead think about what a God would logically be like philosophically, the eternal femur breaker is absurd. It's a very dumb and obviously human invention.
Ecclesiastes and Job both reject the notion of an afterlife.