Am I crazy to think that a low level of unemployment means we basically already did all the important jobs that need to be done and should be seen as a good thing?
I haven't read Bullshit jobs, does it touch on that kind of thing? Are there any more "anti-employment" works.
Yes, it more than touches on that. It's far from a serious academic work imo, but for me it was very interesting/thought provoking.
high levels of unemployment*
you're crazy to think such unemployed people shouldn't be called upon to bolster the economy here and there
Yeah, much of actual productive effort has been streamlined, but world governments in general won’t go through the effort of making a sustainable system of basic income support and degrowrh needed so instead any higher-income sector that can have bullshit jobs is crammed with them while lower-income ones have more and more precarious middlemen slotted in like no more delivery drivers now you have to go through 4 different startup companies working at a loss, to decrease potential earnings of workers
Low level of unemployment means you can begin focusing on community enrichment but the community has been killed by rampant 'diversity' and unchecked illegal immigration
>does it touch on that kind of thing?
Kinda. I read it a while ago and I don't remember much on unemployment, but he more or less details how most office "jobs" are just adult daycare where you have to pretend you're doing something important. I like Graeber's books; his book on debt was really insightful. I also liked 'the dawn of everything', which reads like a response to that shameful book 'sapiens'.
The community was killed long ago by television and the automobile. When immigrants came to America hundreds of years ago, they had communities, but then propaganda brainwashed them into becoming all the same; one language, one goal, one personality. Television and shitty city planning made it really easy to propagandise everyone at once, and the automobile made it a pain in the arse to go anywhere.
>The community was killed long ago by television and the automobile
False
>When immigrants came to America hundreds of years ago
We're not talking about hundreds of years ago. We're talking about since 1965
No argument. People have been living in soulless suburbs since well before 1965 and the literature of the time reflects this feeling very well.
>one language, one goal, one personality
That's the result of nationalism and unified state. America needed to compete globally with the like of fascism and communism and had to cater to a super majority at the cost of the minority and individual. There was no other way to allocate so many resources to compete.
Localism gained traction after ww2 and accelerated during the 90s and 2000s before popping off after 2008. There's no way to have a coherent unified state w/ so many diverse interest groups w/o using a shared ideology or religion. They tried to replace religion with political ideology and that basically failed. Now there's no shared religion in the USA and doesn't seem like things will unify again soon.
The next 20 or so years will just be things fragmenting more. More people are going to join cults, gangs, and special interest groups to supplement for community.
>Now there's no shared religion in the USA
What about le consumerism?
Community for whites have pretty much "fallen" apart the last 30 years while minority communities have thrived. Niche communities have become more tight-knit and independent.
It's in part a matter of priorities.
I think many countries could do with having many more gardeners and way fewer clerks.
If everything important was done than you'd basically be living in utopia which obviously ain't the case. Whatever the rate of unemployment is under capitalism it doesn't have much anything to do with "what needs to be done" (according to who?) but fluctuations in aggregate demand/spending. Graeber thinks most people are doing basically meaningless make work and people just want income and there's enough information asymmetry for things to carry on as such to benefit employers and employees. Anyways it's better to think about how labour is commanded and income distribution e.g. why are CEOs paid so much, the orthodox response would be such remuneration is necessary because such skills are extremely scarce and demanded but followed with fatalism.
>Anyways it's better to think about how labour is commanded and income distribution
Aye
Unemployment long term is very unpleasant. You don't become some self-made knight of the soul, you wither away into anomie and loneliness. Humans need structure and activity and 99% need that provided
>meaningless make work
Such as writing pop-economics slop?
You truly believe that?
Go down the welfare office and check out all the self actualized people.
If the internet has taught us anything, it's that man cannot create meaning by himself, that left to his own devices he's a very sorry specimen. He will never live the good life without order and rules and people around him.
The exceptions are one in a million (you and I aren't one of them) and we should hardly base our societies that very rare man who genuinely needs freedom.
>If the internet has taught us anything, it's that man cannot create meaning by himself, that left to his own devices he's a very sorry specimen. He will never live the good life without order and rules and people around him.
The internet has taught me the opposite: That the western world is currently filled with purposeless oversocialized individuals who have had every facet of their identity determined by those around them, and who still sit at the lower levels of Positive Disintegration at middle age.
8.5k upvotes on my plebbit post? Heh, guess who just found a new reason not to kill himself!
Some people crave social acceptance. Reddits and alike are like porn to them.
He has a wife and I'm betting both of you don't.
If that's what having a wife means I don't want one
having a wife is not an indicator of success, moron
You have a bundle of beliefs you assert with absolutist certainty without proof, it seems very emotion-based. And I don't want to insult you, but your beliefs sound very subservient, almost slavish-minded.
I have counter-argument: I didn't notice much of self actualized people in the work either.
And another thing: people at the welfare office are poor. So maybe that's the problem?
Self-actualization sounds like rich people status thing. "Look at me, how good person I am, how much better than others I am."
And meaning is likely genetic.
>You have a bundle of beliefs you assert with absolutist certainty without proof, it seems very emotion-based.
What proof could possibly exist which would satisfy you? We are talking about 'the good life' here, of course its opinions. What else would it be?
>And I don't want to insult you, but your beliefs sound very subservient, almost slavish-minded.
Not an insult, that is exactly the point I'm making. 99% of people need structure and order to lead good lives. Without it, they wither away - and they won't create it themselves.
On this very website there are young men who do nothing but fap, smoke weed, vidya and shitpost. There's your heroic individualism. I'd say, my opinion is, they'd be better off with bourgeois conformity, careers and families. Not very cool or individualistic, perhaps slavish yes, but better none the less.
>I have counter-argument: I didn't notice much of self actualized people in the work either.
Not either/or, but almost all people are better off with a job than being unemployed. Unemployment is mentally corrosive regardless of the poverty; an unemployed person in the west will have more resources than a worker bee elsewhere, but that worker be will still be leading a better life.
Any proof would be better than none. You're evading.
I think you're projecting, you are conformist who likes authoritarian control and rules, and so claim that this is good for everyone and everyone secretly likes that. It's typical for authoritarian conformists.
I fail to see how wasting your life on working is any better than wasting it on smoking weed. You claim that unemployment is mentally corrosive and you support it by basically claiming that's true because you say it's true.
You, personally, seem to have strong desire for social acceptance, which is satiated by working. And so you think everybody else should do as you do.
In my experience, there's not many things as soul crushing as job and majority wants to stop working.
I think you're in minority, maybe not 1% but I would guess that less than 5%.
>99% of people need structure and order to lead good lives. Without it, they wither away - and they won't create it themselves.
>In my experience, there's not many things as soul crushing as job and majority wants to stop working.
You are both right. A man needs structure in order to prosper but modern work environments are hellish creations that seek to maximize profits where the worker is tool to be exploited
Idk. I do think the willingness to be an actual real person is quite limited in some people when they are not forced into the position but I think this is irrelevant when it comes to work on a mental level. You need work either way to be your best self or at least just to live.
I think a more important point to make is the tendency for people to b***h and complain instead of changing those situation in anyway shape or form. As much as you can hate on the modern age this is the only time where if you are an average man in a western state you have the power to learn about literally everything to almost a proficient level do anything within your power and move up the classes. But instead of fixing their problems to some extent with that ability it’s just constant complaining
This site is the best example of this. A bunch of men acting like women.
“I get no b***hes. I hate society I want to live off the grid instead” then still dont get b***hes or live off the grid despite its obviously possible.
Thankfully I don’t think most people act like this though.
Like I said before though I think the question of having a job or not having a job when you want to be real is a nonsensical question to ask. You need a job no matter what. Even especially because it’s even the morally right thing to do. As silly as the society is it’s still a society and not having a job is just being a leach.
How would you become a self made real soul without a job hypothetically? Other then becoming completely self sufficient and alone off the grid?
>You don't become some self-made knight of the soul
Honestly I think people could become this. But they literally don’t have the money nor means to do so.
David Graebers “theory” of why the elites invent bullshit jobs for us is that they wanted to prevent a repeat of the late 1960s. I can’t take a guy with that kind of analysis seriously
For the purposes of government statistics, you are not counted as unemployed unless you've actively searched for a job in the past 4 weeks.
https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm
Low unemployment can mean that many people have simply given up on searching for a job. High unemployment often signals recovery from a recession as people start looking for a job. Neither is necessarily bad or good. This statistic is often abused by politicians and the media who should really know better. It tells you nothing about the supply of jobs.
>
This. A "low" unemployment number is nothing more than propaganda.
I've always thought unemployment numbers were bullshit
>i've been unemployed for over a year and no one ever came knocking on my door asking if i had a job or not
max headroom not required
>we basically already did all the important jobs that need to be done
No, the important work is just starting. Humanity is finally on the cusp of being liberated from the mundane physical. Our proper work, art, will be our core focus this millennium.
>Our proper work, art, will be our core focus this millennium.
AI is at the beginning stages of taking all the art jobs. Let's face it, humans are getting stuck with the bullshit
AI sucks at art. I haven't seen a single work of ai art that passes intermediate level human artists
>AI sucks at art
That's not what pencil pushers looking at their bottom line think. And it's in its infancy
/thread
> I do statistics
> I create software/robotics
> I scam people
Easy as that
David Graeber is genuinely an idiot.
There are no real jobs. We off-shored every industry that pulled things out of the ground or made them. All that’s left are white collar service and widget industries, in which the large majority of employees are employed in low-and-mid level administrative jobs. We’re an entire nation of “analysts”, “managers”, and “consultants”.
>We off-shored every industry that pulled things out of the ground or made them.
Obvious bullshit. America is a net exporter of stuff like oil actually believe it or not. The stuff off-shored were like textiles and electronics (and protectionism under "national security" has made a comeback there on the high end). America always kept producing stuff like autos and capital goods to make stuff but most of that stuff is insanely expensive so it's not like Africans are importing many Ford F-150's.
>All that’s left are white collar service and widget industries, in which the large majority of employees are employed in low-and-mid level administrative jobs.
Maybe your problem is productivity? You can make things more labour intensive by just being less productive
>We’re an entire nation of “analysts”, “managers”, and “consultants”.
You have no idea what most service sector jobs are lol... more people are employed in fast food than working as “analysts”, “managers”, or “consultants”
So your refutation of the idea that we offshored production of all real goods is that we still pull one single commodity (that is highly politicized btw) out of the ground? All of those autos are produced by American companies and assembled in Texas but made in Mexico. Since the 1980s almost all of the wealth in the American economy came from 4 industries: finance, insurance, real estate, and tech. The actual “productive” economy is people running admin at a bank. The professional and business services industry employs the most people in the US as well. This is not “service”. This is shit like banking, law, consulting, etc.
> is that we still pull one single commodity (that is highly politicized btw) out of the ground?
I don't know what exactly you're complaining about? It's one of many but most "relevant". Decline of coal mining and stuff started already in the 1950s but outputs still going on.
>All of those autos are produced by American companies and assembled in Texas but made in Mexico
Why didn't that happen in other sectors similarly? Auto industry workers politically could lobby better than people soldering together electronics but that doesn't explain why
>Since the 1980s almost all of the wealth in the American economy came from 4 industries: finance, insurance, real estate, and tech
Right but that wasn't obvious at the time to everyone. In the 1980s people thought Germany/Japan were the next superpower since they made physical things but look what happened. Look at China today and how they try to develop a FIRE sector but struggle
Because I was exaggerating to make a point. When you put leisure/retail together it's just as big.
Why do people like you just make shit up?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/978479/number-employees-united-states-industry/#:~:text=U.S.%20number%20of%20employees%202023%2C%20by%20industry&text=As%20of%20July%202023%2C%20there,people%20working%20in%20this%20industry.
Narcissisim is a disease. The people like that will never admit truth.
"If I add this, multiply that, divide this by that, I'm not disingenuous piece of shit, I'm exaggerating."
I'm seriously interested, why are you lying?
>Am I crazy to think that a low level of unemployment means we basically already did all the important jobs that need to be done and should be seen as a good thing?
Yes, the problem with Capitalism is that it turns this amazing boon into something terrible for people as their own work then is turned into something that replaces them. No amount of work or effort we put into our labor will ever create a Capitalist world where we need to work less and have more to go around. If we need to work less it means your value as a worker is dropping which means you can't buy shit anyway. Were basically in a holding pattern until someone makes an economy outside the profit principle.