If a Boltzmann brain spontaneously appears in the void for a fraction of a second before deterioration, how can i be a Boltzmann brain? The time taken to write this thread far exceeds the life time of a potential Boltzmann brain...I don't experience my existence in an instant, it is ongoing, and ongoing is something the existence of a Boltzmann brain is not, therefore I am not a Boltzmann brain...
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Ok, good to know. Now delete that image
You don't like KFC?
It spontaneously occurs with all memories intact. So maybe this is you in the future remembering this thread before vanishing into nonexistense. (not very convincing, but I think it's what he meant)
Although it seems far more likely that a Boltzmann brain would exist in an incoherent imagined universe, say one of all light, or total darkness, or random noise.
If we consider all possible states of the universe, all light and all darkness are each no more likely to occur than the exact specific reality in which your future instantaneous boltzmann brain remembers this thread
What you've stumbled across is not a refutation of the concept of Boltzmann brains, but something significant about consciousness. While a Boltzmann brain could form with all of your memories in a coherent fashion, it's much much much more likely to spawn in with all senses producing the equivalence of noise. Given a universe which exists forever with a potential energy fluctuation with upper bound exceeding the amount needed to create a Boltzmann brain, the vast majority of conscious time would be spent in these meaningless states. Take it as rather significant that your life seems to fall within the ordered section, although some of these experiences are bound to fall within. But you can take this further. Consider that observation requiremes consciousness but not physics. It's totally possible for all sorts of bizarre occurences of consciousness which would also mostly produce noise. The point I'm trying to make is that you are experiencing a mostly put together world, and that by itself is what makes your conscious experience particularly special. Although these scenarios will include some conscious brains in this coherent state, I think it says a lot that I'm not and you're not in one of these fever dream like states.
>this is you in the future remembering this thread
The brain wouldn't be alive long enough to even have any coherent memory
The brain gets created with the induced memory.
The memory of everything you believe you did so far, and intent to read the sentence/type that letter,... that you percieve ad "now", with all beliefs this "now" has been happening, and didn't just get created with the brain, only to vanish the next moment.
Checked. Also, this. I just opened up IQfy for the first time in months and god, this board has really gone to shit. The fact that people can't understand a basic thought experiment really shows how far we've fallen.
this.
Then it's not a Boltzmann Brain by definition, because a Boltzmann brain is the spontaneous emergence of a brain and mind with coherent memories and experience. The whole point of the this stupid thought experiment rests on it being "just perfect"
Time is relative
A few seconds to a dirty water sack such as yourself, is longer than an eternity to the Boltzmann Brain.
What does this mean exactly?
Towards the end of the universe
Brains like our own will appear from nothing by sheer coincidence and its argued that we humans don't really exist but are just one of those brains thinking about living on earth
Sneed
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xsJW9YHPNL3yeEtKF/could-billions-spacially-disconnected-boltzmann-neurons-give
>Imagine two cerebral hemispheres, materialized in a cosmic vacuum by unlikely fluctuations, simulated in advanced virtual reality, or physically disconnected and kept alive by advanced technology.
>Both hemispheres are separated, but electrodes are attached to the nerve endings (or electrical impulses are simulated, or the fluctuations in their improbability recreate a given sequence of impulses), applying nerve impulses in a manner perfectly identical to what would occur in the brain if there were no spatial separation.
>Assuming there would be a conscious state of mind in a given brain if it were not split, is the conscious mind also in two separate hemispheres? If not, why not?
>And if it is in the hemispheres, does the distance between the hemispheres or the time in which they exist have any significance?
>If we can imagine such a scenario, and if the described interpretation is to be taken seriously, despite its apparent abstractness, more advanced situations should also be considered.
>We can imagine dividing the brain into 4 parts, 8 and 16, as well as disconnect the limbic system, the cerebellum and the individual lobes.
Scientifically, how plausible is this?
https://vitrifyhim.blogspot.com/2021/03/could-billions-spacially-disconnected.html
>one chance in existence
>born into meat brain
why even be self-conscious
There were a trillion brains that attempted to make your post, but popped out of existence before they got the chance to hit "post". You are just selective bias.
Did you really not come up with that yourself? I want to understand people dumber than me, how they tick. Please reply.
What you on about?
It's impossible for a brain to survive I the void so it's impossible for my existence to be ongoing because the brain is not ongoing....I guess you could argue a brain in some sort of oxygenated blood supplying force field popped into existence to compliment the brain, In which case the brain survives long enough to imagine me writing this post
The Boltzmann brain discussion is just a marginally less tedious abstraction of the Doomsday argument. Both are of the particular genre of proposal which is trivially stupid yet impossible for the people ensnared by it to have explained. It is ridiculous that it's been debated to such a degree for such a long time.
What makes them trivially stupid
It's like arguing about the size of a lake based on the size of a ripple you saw. You can make the exact same statistical argument about any process, at any stage of the process.
The brain is a reminder that you can't prove your memory and time.
Agreed. Frick Boltzmann brains. The assumptions they require are totally speculative i.e. that the universe lasts forever, or the probability of "brain" formation becomes significant **eventually**. People don't explore related moronic hypotheses either. Why not two brains, fricking eachother with brain-dicks? What about a cow's brain? What about your mom fricking a galactically-huge BBC? What about a moronic autistic brain? The correct answer to all these questions is "this is stupid and I don't care"
The idea is that given an infinite amount of time, anything imaginable will eventually pop into existence, yes it could be that our entire universe popped into existence this way, there's no need to limit it to a brain
So it's basically like an inflatable mallet gavel you can use to judge cosmological models. Unlikely we're Boltzmann brains because we seem to live in HD which would be unlikely for Boltzmann brains to experience, more likely to get a nintendo cow brain so it's unlikely that infinite time future is what's around the bend for our universe. But it's also still an inflated pool toy, because saying we could be anything other than what we are seems like a false premise. I read something by Nick Bostrom and the doomsday argument once that covers why it's not a false premise but I didn't understand what he was saying.
>The time taken to write this thread far exceeds the life time of a potential Boltzmann brain...
I'm sorry, mr. Brain, but this thread isn't real. Everything you see has no connection to the real world. All your memories are fake. Rip.
If a Boltzmann brain can appear spontaneously, then the conditions that allow it to exist for a while can appear too.
what is it about boltzmann brains that makes them the #1 topic among pop sci basedgoys is it-
Because it's understandable to us
The idea is that the temporal perception of the boltzmann brain is =/= to his/our reality, saying that a boltzmann brain is disproven just because your subjective perception has lasted more than X is just not understanding the concept. A boltzmann brain could perceive and live an entire subjective life in just a moment, or split second, in the objective time of its entorn/base reality
Also, if you take into account how many steps has been needed to get to "you", every atom configuration needed and every event and or decision needed to spawn you to existence, including the formation of stars and its supernovae for the heavy elements, our cosmic location, abiogenesis, evolution, social evolution, individualistic choices like love between two random individuals, and the tremendous and un-listable ammount of events and coincidences that have to happen to spawn a "person" opposed to another person, or a rock, or a dog, or an asteroid; if u take that into account, the creation of a self conscious amalgamation of entagled matter due to random quantum propierties seems more mathematically pausible, than specifically "you" were born, thats why the debate is interesting, as its probably mathematically more probable your existence is contained inside a boltzmann simulation that the probabilities of specifically "you" getting born.
Also, the boltzmann brain can simulate his perceptive entorn to suit a subjective existence, it doesnt need the un-listable ammount of coincidences (like "we" do) to create a materialistic living entorn.
Yes boltzmann brains are just a thinking exercise in the end, just because the grandiose tools we would need to do any significant advancement in their study, but just flat out pointing them as pop-sci deepless conversation, is really not understanding a single fricking bit of physics and having your head up your ass till the lungs
Yeah,statistics point towards us overwhelmingly being boltzman brains
There's no way you can evaluate these "probabilities". Everything you're talking about is built on unfounded assumptions.
Cop out answer.
The only thing that can exist that is you/your mind, is exactly that specific configuration of atoms and molecules in your body and brain at whatever specific time. There is no other computation or simulation or emulation possible.
Honestly, the whole philosophy of "I'll just take the entire space of all possibilities as being equally extant and that's how I answer hard philosophical problems" is a pseud philosophy tbh wichu senpai
Time is perceptual. You type one character per brain, taking trillions of years to make a single post. You can't prove that anyone or anything outside you exists, so it doesn't matter if your life is continuous or one minute at a time. To you they're the same.
Boltzmann brain should be seen as a thought experiment that disproves the idea of the computational theory of mind, much like how schrodingers cat disproves copenhagen etc
Ongoing means nothing, only your memory of the past is what you are considering as ongoing.
I had never heard of Boltzmann brains before today, but I take it for granted that any moment I experience as "the present" might in fact be the starting point of the universe, with all my memories of "the past" merely being an arbitrary starting condition. So it wouldn't really surprise me if I were a Boltzmann brain.
I'm a little moronic, but wouldn't the probability of your brain coming to be as it is through the logical process of evolution/natural selection have a much larger probability of occurrence, than random particles coming together randomly to form a brain?
No, not if the universe is around for ever
It's much easier for a brain to spontaneously pop up in an endless and timeless void by chance dictated by physics than it is to form a whole universe from scratch and then hope that universe eventually produces life in a finite amount of time due to entropy
There's a certain circularity that I can't quite formalize here, but it seems ridiculous.
So, if BB can form due to entropy, and its possible I am one, that would mean that a mind formed that perceives itself as living in a universe with the laws of thermodynamics that allow BB to form. So why would the reality I perceive be also the base reality with the laws that allow for BB? It forms a simulation with conditions that just happen to mirror the conditions of the reality hosting the simulation?
Somethings not working out here.
The fundamental problem with Boltzamann brains, the Doomsday argument, and similar philosophical dead ends, is that they're ultimately based upon the premise that souls exist and humans are vessels for wandering ethereal beings. No one exclaims that a rock on a mountain top is a statistical impossibility because the vast majority of rocks are on the foothills.
>is that they're ultimately based upon the premise that souls exist
I don't mean the arguments explicitly reference souls. They're sampling arguments, ie if the human population is exponential, it's more likely I'm living in the tail end. But sampling involves selection, random or otherwise, every person in that population is still going to exist.
>But sampling involves selection, random or otherwise, every person in that population is still going to exist.
yes and its more likely you're in the tail end
Only if you were somehow outside the population and randomly chose which person to enter.
Which is precisely what happened to you when "you" were born.
aka, a soul.
no? your individual consciousness.
A consciousness that exists before the human it inhabits is born?
Still, what?
You're talking about specific eschatological arguments and carter catastrophe, which is something else entirely. Boltzmann Brains aren't about a soul. This is as material as it gets.
In order to make BB, recursion, simulation arguments work you require a computational theory of mind. Introducing a dual aspect would actually blow these arguments apart.
Not trying to shit on your whole thing, but I don't see where you're coming from.
I'm not sure either to be honest, I was horrifically drunk.
You have to cause the condition that your consciousness appears as a boltzman brain by creating the wave form of your awareness and projecting it as a holographic photomagnetic crystal to temporarily energies matter and space to transfer synaptic data through the magnetic field domains and then backfeed the signal into your local field of consciousness and record the magnetic impulse into chemical crystal matrix. Then you use that resonance between the virtual and physical fields to transfer hyperspatial information between local fields of awareness to create a feedback loop between your brain and the projected boltzman brain.
last tuesdayism, boltzman brainism, etc...are very strange to think about
it just seems so intuitive...on the same level of 'i exist' that i also exist over a temporal duration. like, i understand the concept of being created at this instant with memories intact, but in a non-propositionally-representable way its just obviously absurd
surely someone will eventually figure out a logical way to refute the idea, because the entailment if you think about it over a few seconds is
>i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok.....i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok.....i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok.......i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok........i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok.........i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok..........i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok...........i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok............i was created NOW with memories intact
>1 second passes
>ok............i was created NOW with memories intact
if the last one is true, how did the others occur as thoughts in my mind?
>they didnt! you just think they did due to memories
frick off. also consciousness is fricking weird
>frick off. also consciousness is fricking weird
Its the central experience, theme, question, foundation of all thought, of our whole existence. Yet its seen as less than a term derived from philosophy.
The science of consciousness and our capacity to utilize consciousness to develop and construct new ways of thinking should be a branch of science and technology of its own.
>If a Boltzmann brain spontaneously appears in the void for a fraction of a second before deterioration, how can i be a Boltzmann brain?
How do you know this is true about boltzmann brains?
What if you're a boltzmann brain, simulating this fake world, and in the real world boltzmann brains are stable or experience slow deterioration
you don't have proof you wrote anything in the past, you only have memories that you did so, which would be spontaneously generated
>The time taken to write this thread far exceeds the life time of a potential Boltzmann brain
No, the time you perceived it taking to write this thread far exceeds the life time of a potential Boltzmann brain
Wouldn't a boltzmann brain almost certainly "break" physics constantly? If all you have are your memories why do you always remember apples falling down and never up?
Forget about the 1 in a 10^xillion chance of brain appearing in the first place and think about the 1 in a 10^xillion^xillion^xillion^xillion chance of such a brain appearing with memories of consistent physics. Surely you are more likely to have completely inconsistent and partially consistent physics boltzmann brains yet we live in a world where strict logic seemingly exists.
Why do people take thought-experiments and abstract hypotheticals and then demand clarification on how the non-existent stuff somebody else hallucinated manifests in the real world.