>Buddhism is an universal religion meant for all mankind, same as Christianity and Islam
Why should I be a Christian instead of a Buddhist? Nirvana seems like a much better option than an eternity laboring among the sorts of people who go to Heaven.
Plus I get unlimited attempts at getting this thing right.
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>Buddhism is an universal religion
Buddhism is the furthest thing from that. The Buddha was an aristocrat and taught fellow aristocrats. Women are an afterthought in it; it's debatable that they can even reach nirvana whereas even in Islam women can go to heaven. To seek Nirvana is to basically have contempt for the entirety of phenomenal existence. The whole universe is made an untouchable dalit. You literally cannot get any more exclusivist and elitist.
>for aristocrats only
>am not a woman, besides teaching on women seems to vary between types of Buddhism
>for people who dislike existing and existence itself
Checks all the boxes for me, I see no downsides.
>it's debatable that they can even reach nirvana
it's not
>To seek Nirvana is to basically have contempt for the entirety of phenomenal existence.
Only because phenomena are inherently unsuitable for happiness
you cannot get happiness with Buddhism you can only get nothingness
Nothingness > happiness though
nothingness cannot be greater than anything it's literally nothing
Jesus fricking christ you two are moronic. OP, I know it's cool to be 15 and discover Nietzsche for the first time, but you're not going to get good responses to sharing your edgy revelations here.
Buddhism is a death cult.
And Christianity is a cult of eternal torture for the majority of people
I don't debate theology with unbelieving scoffers.
The Sangha was much more than the aristocracy. And the entire point is realizing the oneness of all things, not rejecting it.
>To seek Nirvana is to basically have contempt for the entirety of phenomenal existence.
Wrong. The attainment of Nirvana is the recognition of the world as empty of inherent existence and fundamentally impermanent. Abrahamic religions cope and say matter/body is ultimately eternal and truly “real” when it isn’t. Islam is the worst offender in this regard, with a comically hedonistic and grossly materialist view of life after death. The world is not eternal, it never was, and never will be, it was not “supposed” to be eternal, and it cannot be made eternal. You can either recognize this as the truth or cope with crude “heavens” because you cannot bear the thought that your personality will perish with your body and the world will eventually cease to be as well
>Abrahamic religions cope and say matter/body is ultimately eternal and truly “real” when it isn’t.
muslims believe everything will be wiped from existence before being remade though. even human beings will be given a form that never perishes and is capable of witnessing God
>matter disappears… but then it comes back!!
So matter is ultimately eternal? The human body is ultimately eternal? That just proves my point. It’s absolute ignorance to the highest degree. The body is not the self, and so it will perish. Only the true self of each being lives on because that is the only “part” of it that is eternal by nature
>matter comes back
who said it will be matter or physical in nature? you only have knowledge of what you are witnessing now and you have correctly deduced that it is not eternal but don't assume that the self we are rebuilt into is going to be the same thing or subject to similar forces.
I said seek not attain.
>muh abrahamics
You aren't talking to one, but I am in agreement with them that the world and the individual soul is real. "The afterlife is a cope" cope doesn't really make sense when we are the ones saying you can permanently frick up forever. The idea that your body, personality and surrounding circumstances isn't real is how Indians cope with being Indian. You will always be a shitskin with a shitskin soul.
Because one only address a perfectly natural concern, while the other a supernatural one. Man's highest end is his highest good: Goodness itself. And if you want communion with pure Goodness, the only way you're going to have it is by way of a supernatural help which will purify you of your all-too-human baggage, which makes you a shabby suitor to pure Love. That help and means is Jesus Christ, and it's the only means available to us this side of Eternity. Of course, you're entirely free to do without perfect Goodness and Love, but I will assure you to do so would be to lose all life in you, and forever. It's dumb. Now, you're not an idiot, are you?
Like I said, I dislike existing and Nirvana seems preferable to Heaven.
Have fun!
Hopefully not, I'm really looking forward to going out like a spent candle.
Yeah, you definitely sound like an idiot. Sad. God made you better than you love to be.
But I genuinely dislike being alive, conscious and generally existing. Why is it dumb to want something you don't like to stop?
Because you dislike life only because you have no love or life in you. That's exactly what Jesus Christ offers and thus you can rejoice here and now and forever. The only alternative is Infinite Death, and if you dislike life now, well, wait to see what awaits you when you will die forever.
The Buddhist "options" are infinite rebirth and eventual Nirvana.
I see no reason to believe in Christianity when it doesn't offer me anything I want, just shaming and guilt-tripping because I don't want what it has to offer.
There is only one Reality. There is no Nirvana or eternal rebirth. There is only this life, and then heaven or hell.
is only one Reality. There is no Nirvana or eternal rebirth. There is only this life, and then heaven or hell.
That's a israeli dogma
The Buddha himself made no pretense of knowing such things. That was a later addition. He was only concerned with a natural problem to which he gave a natural solution. He has no proof for anything more.
I don't believe in that!
I believe in reincarnation because 1. it makes more sense to me than the other options and 2. it's what I'd prefer to be true.
Anon, just a thought experiment before you do something stupid. Condensed Chaos, it's a book by Phil Hine. It teaches chaos magick, which essentially is a beliefs experiment. Toy with It and see how whatever you believe seems to agree with how shit works. Because reality itself is illusion.
I've read half of that. I should find it on my phone again, I remember getting really bored of it not seeming to get to the point.
>Why does it make more sense to you that when you die you become an intestinal worm? Give an example of a worm life that will make you ascend to a furry/canine.
The bar for a good worm life is very low for a reason, it's (close to) the easiest possible life to live well, the other extreme would be a human life where the result of living well is Nirvana and the ceasing of rebirth.
>that does not make it true so it's useless
It's the only standard that I can judge religions on.
Well the idea that I want to convey is my own qualia experience. Essentially I did meditation and achieved union with God.
I tried several meditation religions, not being sure, and essentially I noticed reality would adapt. But the truth of the matter is that reality is an illusion and you need Gnosis.
Will gnosis bring me to Nirvana?
Gnosis is seeing your true nature, and experiencing your shared Divinity, in hinduism this is called Nirvana, in gnosticism Gnosis. Notice I used the term gnosis, that was my experience.
Is gnosis just some factual information or more like what's called enlightenment?
>The bar for a good worm life is very low for a reason,
That didn't explain why it made more sense for you to believe in this. So intestinal worms can choose to live a good or bad life?
>the other extreme would be a human life where the result of living well is Nirvana and the ceasing of rebirth.
what makes humanity so special for it to be the other end?
>It's the only standard that I can judge religions on.
But it has nothing to do whether what you choose to believe is the reality or not. If you can't think of reasons to discredit truth claims beside I don't like it then you have a big problem.
>That didn't explain why it made more sense for you to believe in this
Reincarnation and Nirvana are in my opinion a better way to organize the universe than heaven or hell after a single lifetime.
> So intestinal worms can choose to live a good or bad life?
They can't really, which I think makes it easier to at least stop accruing bad karma, before being born as something more conscious.
>what makes humanity so special for it to be the other end?
Animals can't reach enlightenment, but it's also possible to get more bad karma than as an animal.
>But it has nothing to do whether what you choose to believe is the reality or not. If you can't think of reasons to discredit truth claims beside I don't like it then you have a big problem.
Religions tend to base their truth claims on things that are impossible to verify for a reason.
So the only way for me at least to determine which religion to believe in is to think what makes the most sense to me and what I wish was true.
>a better way to organize the universe
why does the universe need to be organized?
>They can't really, which I think makes it easier to at least stop accruing bad karma, before being born as something more conscious.
It seems so arbitrary then which direction you are going because if you do your best to live as a bad nasty worm you'll end up in an amoeba or lower. You'll get to experience basically nothing living as one because they are not conscious so there's your enlightenment. This also raises a question if you are born an animal and you can't really be a bad one then how the frick are the lower tier ones still being produced.
>So the only way for me at least to determine which religion to believe in is to think what makes the most sense to me and what I wish was true.
The first part is logical the second not at all. Your wishes and preferences shouldn't have a say at all in your decisions. Why not then make something up that you like even more than Buddhism and delude yourself into believing it
>why does the universe need to be organized?
I don't know if it needs to be, but it seems to be, to an extent at least, so it's not too crazy to hypothesize that that might also be true about the afterlife.
>It seems so arbitrary then which direction you are going because if you do your best to live as a bad nasty worm you'll end up in an amoeba or lower. You'll get to experience basically nothing living as one because they are not conscious so there's your enlightenment.
I don't think it's arbitrary, and I don't really think it's possible to live as a bad nasty worm.
And I don't think that's what enlightenment means.
>if you are born an animal and you can't really be a bad one then how the frick are the lower tier ones still being produced.
Who knows how many souls and worlds with different species exist in the universe?
>Your wishes and preferences shouldn't have a say at all in your decisions.
I guess they could be the same thing in a way? I would like for the universe to make sense, and so what makes sense to me is also what I'd like to be the case.
>Why not then make something up that you like even more than Buddhism and delude yourself into believing it?
I've tried, but can't think of anything better than reincarnation and Nirvana. And Buddhism has them both, so I think Buddhism might have the right idea about some other things, too.
>so it's not too crazy to hypothesize that that might also be true about the afterlife.
People arbitrarily decide to organize things in the universe into sets. For example look at where the atmosphere ends, it's entirely arbitrary that we decided 100 kilometers as opposed to 101 or 99. Why would our autism to do so carry over beyond death?
>I don't really think it's possible to live as a bad nasty worm.
Why not? Just simplify the things a bad nasty human would do.
>And I don't think that's what enlightenment means.
The only difference is that you will have a chance to be reborn but if you condition your soul to fail every single time then it's pretty much the same.
>Who knows how many souls and worlds with different species exist in the universe?
Yes but they are all going through similar processes so their number doesn't help at all to explain it.
>so what makes sense to me is also what I'd like to be the case
>can't think of anything better
You can't envision a universe where everyone instantly gets teleported to the ultimate Buddhist goal without suffering? How can you say you'd rather have what is going on now.
>Why would our autism to do so carry over beyond death?
I don't know 100% if it does, but it might.
>Why not? Just simplify the things a bad nasty human would do.
I'm not sure if animals can be bad or nasty in the same way that humans can, and for the same reason animals can't become enlightened.
>The only difference is that you will have a chance to be reborn but if you condition your soul to fail every single time then it's pretty much the same.
I'm not sure that it's possible to condition yourself like that.
>Yes but they are all going through similar processes so their number doesn't help at all to explain it.
I think it does? We're actually very lucky to have been born as sentient beings.
>You can't envision a universe where everyone instantly gets teleported to the ultimate Buddhist goal without suffering? How can you say you'd rather have what is going on now.
I can see that I at least haven't been teleported to the ultimate goal, so that can't literally be the case about how things are. And if the universe is organized, there is likely a reason for us being here, which to me seems like given limited time to achieve some goal during our lifetimes. And out of all the religions that believe that, Buddhism is my favourite.
Then who exactly do you debate theology with? People who agree with you? Lol
>but it might.
we have no reason to even suspect it
>for the same reason
which is? if you are going to say our intelligence then there is no reason whatsoever to limit it to human beings when there can be creatures or machines smarter and more conscious than us somewhere in the universe. to think you can just hop onto the ultimate goal because you are human instead of the next step is arrogance
>I'm not sure that it's possible to condition yourself like that
if you can't condition yourself then pretty much nothing carries over when you reincarnate because no change is possible
>I can see that I at least haven't been teleported to the ultimate goal, so that can't literally be the case about how things are.
Your wishes and preferences should have affected reality to make it conform. But in any case you can still improve on the Buddhist model by limiting reincarnation towards the ultimate goal and not backwards.
>reason for being here
There is no reason in that model really it just is that way. If there was one we'd know why the cycle even exists in the first place
>we have no reason to even suspect it
Depends on what you think is the true nature of the universe (nobody knows for sure)
>which is?
Animals aren't sentient, not similarly to humans at least. And humans are capable of enlightenment, so there's no need to become some more advanced being to reach Nirvana.
>if you can't condition yourself then pretty much nothing carries over when you reincarnate because no change is possible
Your karma carries over, and when you're lucky enough to be born as a sentient being, you have a chance to reach enlightenment.
> But in any case you can still improve on the Buddhist model by limiting reincarnation towards the ultimate goal and not backwards.
If the point of everything was to be as easy and pleasant as possible, life wouldn't exist at all or at least certainly the way it does currently.
>There is no reason in that model really it just is that way. If there was one we'd know why the cycle even exists in the first place
Like I said, the fact that something exists means that there is some reason why things are this way, unless you think literally everything is an accident of some kind.
>(nobody knows for sure)
Indeed but what we do know is that there is artificial order imposed onto it. People do it to make understanding reality easier but that's about it. So if I were going to suddenly believe it's all a simulation it would still not affect the reasons.
>there's no need to become some more advanced being to reach Nirvana
And yet people fail and go backwards indicating that it would be possible to still reach a higher state but not enough for the goal. Also sentience is on a spectrum and I find it too convenient that this specific amount of insight is enough just to exclude animals but not us.
>Your karma carries over
So we are a score with barely a name attached to separate it from the rest? In that case reaching the ultimate goal is kind of pointless considering upon death we dissipate into nothingness except for that tiny part
>If the point of everything was to be as easy and pleasant as possible
Obviously not but you have to admit that it will be preferable to what the Buddhists propose is the nature of things.
>the fact that something exists means that there is some reason why things are this way
I agree and know the reason for it in my paradigm but what is the reason for it in yours?
It's been 4 hours, I have to go to sleep.
>Obviously not but you have to admit that it will be preferable to what the Buddhists propose is the nature of things.
Not necessarily, depends on what you consider Nirvana to be, I guess.
>I agree and know the reason for it in my paradigm but what is the reason for it in yours?
I have this idea that there is some inherent value in being a soul/whatever that has achieved Nirvana "the hard way" instead of having been helped or just created into Nirvana. There could be something valuable in the experience we get in our lifetimes that we couldn't get artificially, like a "realness" of some kind.
>It's been 4 hours, I have to go to sleep.
good night anon maybe we will continue another time, you have interesting perspectives for sure
Actually not even half, I'll try to get through the beginning this time.
Why does it make more sense to you that when you die you become an intestinal worm? Give an example of a worm life that will make you ascend to a furry/canine.
>it's what I'd prefer to be true.
that does not make it true so it's useless
There no such thing as life or death.
It's funny to me that religions of the elect ranging from Buddhism to Gnostic Christianity are always so cynical. I for one, look forward for the world to come.
The budhda is only the messenger. The buddha didn't make the universe inherently defective
>an aristocrat
By birth and in his childhood, yes
>made a religion for aristocrats
Where did you get that idea from?
>Women are an afterthought
Where did you get that idea from?
>basically have contempt for the entirety of phenomenal existence
You're describing the symptom, but exhibit that you don't understand the mindset that leads to this realization.
Good and evil are perceived as part of an antagonistic duality that itself must be overcome through achieving Sunyata: emptiness in the sense of recognition of good and evil being two opposing principles but not a reality, emptying the duality of them, and achieving a oneness.
You've blinded yourself through false philosophy. Only Goodness exists, on a spectrum. Evil is the absence of Goodness, and has no positive existence. It is only a mental placeholder for what is not good or perfectly good. For example, we might call a dull blade "evil" because it has lost its sharpness, like a statement "evil" because it has lost its fidelity to truth. When you lose all Goodness, which is what you will be doing when you reject Jesus Christ, you lose Everything. You will only know then Evil.
Good and Evil are illusory.
You mistake the consequences of natural phenomena for transcendent moral law.
Action perceived as “good” can be experienced as harmful in one situation, but helpful in another.
Salvation is about letting go of such ideas. They have no existence in and of themselves.
The goodness of a true statement is not an illusion, because it connects one to Reality which leads one to excellence. You have blinded yourself to Reality through these falsehoods you peddle as wisdom.
Buddhism is about making peace with the universe
Christianity is a cosmic horror story
True, also the goal of Christianity is eternal happiness while Buddhism realizes that eternal existence of any kind without rebirth would be torture eventually
Hence why Yahweh was driven mad by his existence as a Deva. The trouble with godhood is that it is virtually impossible to achieve liberation. Your powers and desires and the subsequent capacity to meet craving is increased infinitely.
Yahweh is trapped in the cycle of Samsara, hence his suffering and jealously and rage and and arrogance sorrow and authoritarianism.
Do you think reality changes when you switch religion? If so, I have a proposal
>Nirvana seems like a much better option than an eternity laboring among the sorts of people who go to Heaven.
Both strike me as undesirable
Do you want to be a god? Or to reincarnate forever?
>god
>reincarnate
Dharma is just as imaginary as sin. All the spirituality in the world is here with you, now. The starting point, journey, and destination should have already taken place in your childhood. All these made-up systems do is fool wholesome, credulous people into believing they're incomplete.
>Nirvana/enlightenment/being in the present is a state of mind here and now, not some goal you strive towards and plan how to achieve
>everything is in flow, don't cling to the present
>be polite to others
That would seem to be what all religions teach broadly enough, but Schopenhauer being Schopenhauer they do seem to lean more towards Eastern philosophy.
How is Buddhism with reincarnation more a religion of elect than the one where you'll burn for an eternity if you aren't a chosen one?
And I don't see it as cynical so much as aware that any eternal existence would eventually be torture.
These definitions aren't rigid if truth be told. Like African traditional religions and their spin offs fit all three
Vajrayana Buddhism is the best religion. Some monks attain the rainbow body, which isn't a feature seen nearly as much in any other religion and some none at all. Don't listen to all these other morons.
>Why should I be a Christian instead of a Buddhist?
Because you've sinned against a holy God and you can't earn forgiveness or salvation, your "good" can't outweigh your evil. A just and righteous judge doesn't care how many charities a thief or murderer donates to, they'll be held accountable for their theft or murder.
God's more holy than that, all liars have their part in the lake of fire; all it takes is one lie and you're under the wrath of a Holy God. It doesn't matter if you never sin again after only sinning once, you're still under condemnation for sinning and you're still facing justice for sinning. The penalty for any and all sin is death. You need God's mercy and you can only get that through His only begotten Son if you want to live
False religions don't have holy gods, they have worldly gods that let them take pride in themselves, take pride in their own works and doings. And karma is nonsense "morality" for amoral wicked people who have no real scale or sense of good and evil.
>Nirvana seems like a much better option than an eternity laboring among the sorts of people who go to Heaven. Plus I get unlimited attempts at getting this thing right.
Your destination isn't a matter of mental exercise.
Reality isn't new age nonsense where if you just think hard enough it'll happen, or if you believe this or that, it'll be your afterlife.
You don't get to choose what the options are: God chose, and it's justice or mercy when you die. You either get what you and everyone else deserves, or you get God's mercy and can live through the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. This isn't something you can do, you can't earn it, you can't make your own sacrifices that can add to it or supplant it or replace it. Only the blood atonement of Jesus Christ can save by faith through God's grace. And Christians don't obey God or do good to be saved, they do it out of love for God and love for their neighbor. All false religion is self-righteousness and works based.
>sorry, can't give you any genuine reasons to be a Christian but have my religious views at least
Classic heathens raising false witness. Thanks for proving antichrists are ALL liars, further validating Scripture to be true (always funny how you idiots do that every day without realizing it), not that any of you know the verse I'm referencing here. Uneducated dullards.
>Then who exactly do you debate theology with? People who agree with you? Lol
There's no point debating something you don't even take seriously, especially when you're just parroting quips you heard off some reddit post or atheist blog or pop culture cartoons.
You're a fool and I've already wasted enough time on someone as dishonest as you. You're not even literate and you didn't even understand what you were replying to, or more likely didn't care to understand because you're evil. Go sit and stare at your belly button and think it makes you "enlightened", fool.
You're a dog though. That'd be a waste of time. No amount of words will get through to your carnal mind. If you really think "just thinking" is enough to change reality, then you're too moronic for anyone to help.
>Similarly, Islam and Christian are streamlined export versions of Judaic Yahweh-worship.
Yeah, just more heathen lies and moronation. You guys never know what you're even talking about. The best you came come up with is pop culture nonsense and talking points off tumbler/twitter or secular humanist homosexuals.
What were you even hoping to achieve with
? To scare me enough so I decide to start believing in Christianity despite it not making sense to me and me not wishing it was true?
>ask question
>get answer
>b***h and moan and cry
Every time with you losers.
You should go back to read-only forms of information or entertainment, like watching cable television, that's more your speed.
Your very first statements hinge on the assumption that Christianity is true, and you take that as a given instead of explaining why it might be so.
>The best you came come up with is pop culture nonsense and talking points off tumbler/twitter or secular humanist homosexuals.
Kek you think im a secular humanist since I dont believe in christisraelitery. Fool you are. Liberalism is the rotten fruit of the rotten chrisrian tree.
>Reality isn't new age nonsense where if you just think hard enough it'll happen, or if you believe this or that, it'll be your afterlife.
Like you could at least explain how you know this to be true
Hinduism is to Buddhism as Judaism is to Islam and Christianity.
Buddhism is one particularly streamlined offshoot of the Dharmic tradition. Many of the other offshoots are gathered under the label "Hinduism"; Jainism and Sikhism are two other offshoots. Buddhism has historically had mass appeal, from the Eurasian steppe (there are large Buddhist communities in Astrakhan, Russia today), to China and Japan, to the Malay region. It is the export variant of Hinduism. It shares most of the philosophy and theology, but without the references to the sacred history and geography of the Indian land and people.
Similarly, Islam and Christian are streamlined export versions of Judaic Yahweh-worship.
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There are only two religions; Bible believing christianity, and mystery religion. Buddhism falls into mystery religion, you make and pray to statues and make and pray to images. If that wasn't the case, maybe there would be some contemplation of intentions. But buddhist leaders bow to the pope of rome all the same, so they are in with the one world religion of the beast.