ESL here.
Yes. Depends on complexity. Poetry being the worst in terms of difficulties of understanding and clarity. But that's the same for every language; poetry is always the hardest part. While understanding children when they speak is usually the greatest challenge when it comes to oral-comprehension.
And no offense but you're a moron if you really believe that 100%, unless you spend your time on Netflix and consume Globish which may be the reason why you cannot appreciate the subtleties of English.
WOW, Dog, maybe you're a tad too moronic yourself to realize that you can say dumb stuff in every language. Also try to make a distinction between the 'language in itself and the way it can be used or is used effectively, though I doubt you can give your obvious moronicness
8 months ago
Anonymous
English, in its core structure, cannot convey complexity in a eleguant, poetic, non pedantic nor subtle maniere and that's a fact.
start coping
8 months ago
Anonymous
Rejoice because you've been given no brain. Go read Nietzsche in Zulu.
8 months ago
Anonymous
NTA but I think Borges explains it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYoqCDKoT4
8 months ago
Anonymous
That doesn’t say anything related to what that Anon said and it was already posted three times. Michael Hofmann actually echoes what he was saying about English not being subtle: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/09/books-interview-michael-hofmann-anglo-german-poet-critic-translator
If there is a word to describe something as "subtle" in a language, it means that a least a small proportion of its speakers are, in fact, able to comprehend that concept and therefore, express it. Simple as.
Nothing makes me happier than knowing you personally as an ESL will never be able to read and understand Finnegans Wake in its original language, ever, not in a million years
>what's your happiest memory in life, anon? a childhood friend? first kiss? >the fact that some guy has a different interpretation of finnegans wake than me.
Arrogance is the most common trait of the ESL. They truly believe that they know English better than the EFL, and can't accept that they only know it in the same way a tourist "knows" a country he's visited for a week. No ESL knows English as it actually is, only as a dead and stuffy thing that's spent too long indoors same shrivels in the sun.
Dog. I get you but, we, ESL-IQfyners are more than mere tourists when it comes to English. Please. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be able to state our points on the matter.
EFLs adopt your mindset only because they've never bothered to learn another language. They're ignorant, and project this ignorance on everyone else. Meanwhile ESLs actually engage with the English language (and other languages too) on a daily basis and realize that this kind of purism is pure idiocy.
>Arrogance is the most common trait of the ESL
lmaoing.
ESL arrogance is merely a result of not only arrogant but also ignorant americans. > No ESL knows English as it actually is
you state this at the same time you post an ESL talking about english as if he was an authority on the subject.
lmao
I'm at a point where I can appreciate Shakespeare and McCarthy but stuff like Gerald Murnane or Lucy Ellmann are honestly beyond my interest. There are some (ugly) books that only appeal to the anglo mind.
i don't know really. Translations in my own language (slavic) always read better to me than English. I feel like English is soulless. Which sucks because I want to appreciate English lit and poetry in its original.
ESL here. While I might make some grammar mistake here and there, and while my pronunciation is absolutely atrocious, Ive found myself to be capable of understanding english literature at a level that is higher than the one of some of the native english speakers I have studied with. I could breeze through Shakespeare and extremely complex academic texts, while they would struggle with texts I would consider basic. It was quite embarassing, really.
But of course it is a matter of practice. While I might not be inclined to use all of it, it is still the case that I know far more English words than your average native English speaker, and my philosophical education made me more capable of dealing with difficult new concepts. I doubt most ESLs are at this level of proficiency.
>I could breeze through shakespeare
With the help of supplementary material, I assume? Still impressive though. How did you not struggle at first when you're someone not from his time?
I actually think ESL have a big advantage when it comes to older texts, namely the fact that there are modern translations in their own language. Similarly I find Italian students often struggling with, say, Dante and Petrarch, while English students can usually work on more accessible translation and then compare them to the original text. Do it enough times and eventually you will start getting an intuitive grasp of Shakespearean English (or Dantean Italian). On the other hand native speakers usually are stuck with a myriad of notes, and have to check costantly dictionaries, which slows down the learning process and makes it way more frustrating.
>comparing modern translations to the actual text
lol
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, mostly to start making sense of sentence structures and older terms. Basically, you use those translations just to get a very general sense of what is being said. But I understand your reaction, maybe you think I'm talking about Emily Wilson-type of translations. Rest assured that I am not.
I gave an ESL a piece of complex poetry once and asked if he could read it. He told me that he could easily understand it but when I dug deeper he was mistaking verbs for nouns and other such things.
This could be the case for some people, but I am sure I wasn't making mistakes of these sort, since I had the opportunity to discuss them in depth with scholars who had English as their native language. In general I think that Shakespeare is not as hard as one might think, you just have to keep reading him. With enough practice you'll even end up being capable of thinking in his literary style.
I would add, but this is just personal experience, that having already learnt other language is very useful when it comes to engaging with older texts of this kind. Personally, by the time I got to Shakespeare I was already capable of reading contemporary English, French and Latin.
I gave an ESL a piece of complex poetry once and asked if he could read it. He told me that he could easily understand it but when I dug deeper he was mistaking verbs for nouns and other such things.
>read text in English >vocabulary is considerable enough to make sense of most things >never had an issue >find out later on that it's a translation of German to English >can't figure out whether I'm bad at English or whether the translation was subpar
Anyone else?
It feels like to me you can either be very good at understanding native English or you can be very good at understanding English written by people that aren't natives and I feel like I'm good at understanding English when written by natives, but whenever I find myself in a situation where it's non-natives I get confused.
I have examples from real life and from this one text I was reading, in theory when you're good at English you should be able to understand everyone equally, but I've gotten used to natives and their potential mistakes and overall flow of how they articulate themselves. In real life, for example, there are people who speak English and make mistakes that isn't predictable based on their mother tongue, the errors can completely ruin any ability of me trying to make sense of what they're saying and I have to rely on their ability to express themselves as closely to natives as possible, when that is something very difficult to achieve. Accents and such aside, just choice of words and overall unnatural combinations that disrupt the flow of what is trying to be said can be a problem for me. I sometimes think I've shot myself on the foot by emulating natives too much because I have a hard time understanding non-natives, as opposed to certain people who have had far more exposure to non-natives and have a more adaptable way of understanding English when spoken by non-natives, whereas I feel as if my understanding or mastery of the language is very linear and rigid.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I can't specifically give examples, by the way, because I feel like I don't use the language in real life nearly enough to have a reliable way of determining whether it's isolated cases or if it is really like that all of the time. I can use the text I was reading as an example, though, since I've spent most of my time reading and writing, so I'll use that; there wasn't a very comprehensive nor natural use of the vocabulary, there were words being repeated often, quite literally the same two words being used over 4 times and it presents itself as a poor translation overall, which to me sometimes makes me confused because I don't consider myself to be the best at English, but I feel like there was potential for describing it in an alternate way that could have made more sense instead of writing it in a way that made it seem as if the vocabulary of the translator might not have been that expansive.
English is inferior to any romance language, this is a fact, it'll never be able to express the emotions and complexity French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese can. English is the lingua france of the world becase of world war 2 and because it is piss easy to learn. The title should go back to French, tbh.
>English is the lingua france of the world becase of world war 2 and because it is piss easy to learn.
It is easy to learn "conversational" level English, and this applies to most other languages too but to be able to speak like native or at least have perfect grammar if not accent) is not easy at all.
I have, I do not consider those people to be English speakers. Instead of learning English as a native language they learned Broken English as a native language. Learning to speak like them should not be anyones goal.
Learning proper, correct English as a second language to the point where one can speak it just like a native is very hard.
>but to be able to speak like native or at least have perfect grammar if not accent) is not easy at all.
lol.
Let me use your own words. >"this applies to most other languages too"
[...]
English is easy to learn because the US has had a massive influence on the entire west - which is a really sad fact.
Aside from real life conversations, when it came to consuming music, movies, games, the ratio of english content to my native language is like 100:1. Any other language in comparison to english really lacks material online - or at least good material, movies/songs/games that genuinely interest you rather than watching a moronic comedy movie just for the sake of practicing the language. For instance with italian, I wanted to find Fellini's films with italian subtitles and I couldn't find most of them. Same with Pasolini.
French or italian would be just as easy to learn if France had as much influence as the US, if people consumed stuff in french not for the language, but for the content itself.
The other anon was saying that learning English was very easy but learning other languages were hard.
>but to be able to speak like native or at least have perfect grammar if not accent) is not easy at all.
lol.
Let me use your own words. >"this applies to most other languages too"
English is inferior to any romance language, this is a fact, it'll never be able to express the emotions and complexity French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese can. English is the lingua france of the world becase of world war 2 and because it is piss easy to learn. The title should go back to French, tbh.
English is easy to learn because the US has had a massive influence on the entire west - which is a really sad fact.
Aside from real life conversations, when it came to consuming music, movies, games, the ratio of english content to my native language is like 100:1. Any other language in comparison to english really lacks material online - or at least good material, movies/songs/games that genuinely interest you rather than watching a moronic comedy movie just for the sake of practicing the language. For instance with italian, I wanted to find Fellini's films with italian subtitles and I couldn't find most of them. Same with Pasolini.
French or italian would be just as easy to learn if France had as much influence as the US, if people consumed stuff in french not for the language, but for the content itself.
>the US has had a massive influence on the entire west
A lot of the influence to which you refer was generated by trading companies in conjunction with military conquests that were nominally British. Parsing this influence from American influence is often difficult.
The issue is not the language but the people that use it. English, German and Arabic are high IQ languages. French, Italian and Japanese and mid IQ languages. Spanish, Indian, Chinese and african languages are Shit tier IQ languages
>The issue is not the language but the people that use it. English, German and Arabic are high IQ languages. French, Italian and Japanese and mid IQ languages. Spanish, Indian, Chinese and african languages are Shit tier IQ languages
My theory has been that unless I devote a great quantity of time to learn a language and its surrounding culture in great fluency, then the understanding I would get from reading its literature untranslated would be inferior to what I would get from a good (annotated) translation. So, since there is no language I care about learning to that high a degree, I don't bother.
This is a very stupid mindset. I'm not trying to dunk on you, I used to share it too. Then I learnt another language and I realized that what you've said was just rationalized laziness. But you have to experience it yourself in order to understand how stupid this narrative truly is.
This is true. Immagine how long it took you to understand complex literary metaphors and themes. Now immagine doing it again at a much older age and having to start all over again, not even knowing literal meanings of sentences.
American English is closer to what the best English poets spoke than today’s British English, which came about at around the time of the industrial revolution.
That's a myth. Wordsworth didn't use ebonics like Americans do.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Not every American is a Black or speaks the Black dialect. Have you spent any time amongst educated Americans or are you basing this opinion on your exposure to Americans across the internet that you do not even know, and that may not even be Americans? I would not judge you based on my experience with Pakis.
>American English is closer to what the best English poets spoke than today’s British English, which came about at around the time of the industrial revolution
This is worn out cliche. I am currently reading Pickwick Papers and find it to be indiscernible from my native tongue. You are likely comparing the tongue of a literate Briton with that of an American monkey. Literate Americans share the same tongue with literate Britons, with only very minor differences.
Something that ESLs don't understand is that, for a native English speaker, to learn a second language is to choose some particular culture out of many competing, provincial cultures which you have no meaningful or regular contact with, and decide to spend years learning that language purely out of specific interest. For most people there is simply no motivation or reason to make a particular decision in this way.
No, you do not understand the point I am making. Why should I particularly care about French, or German, or Spanish, or whatever language you want to appeal to, such that I would learn their language and not another one? I don't have a strong enough interest in one of these particular places. They are not a language that I interact with, ever, in my daily life. They are something I would need to go out of my way and struggle to have any meaningful exposure to. Your situation regarding English is completely the opposite of my situation regarding whatever language you natively speak.
>Daily posts on IQfy >"uuh I have to go out of my way to interact with such languages"
Holy mother of cope, just admit you're lazy, stop rationalizing
8 months ago
Anonymous
Oh wow I can read some shitposts in some thread on IQfy, a board I don't care about. Truly amazing. You also don't address my point of why I should care enough about one of these particular localities to learn their language and not another one. For you English is the lingua franca, for me your language is some minor language that has no relevance to my life. If I had some deep abiding interest in Germany or wherever, I could see putting in the effort, but I don't.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You're posting on the literature board, you could read foreign works in their original language. You know damn well the only reason you don't learn a second language is out of spite, a moronic sense of superiority and lazyness. Fricking haitian children can do it and you can't.
Someone living in Europe can perfectly live thir life without speaking a word of English or not caring to learn it in a thorough manner. It's not just supposedly "uneducated" people as some on here might think, but I know university professors here who do not speak English (sometimes for idiological reasons which are stupid ofc) or were proficient in other languages. Even in great Europeans cities, you can live your life without speaking English and if a tourist comes to you, addresses you in English and you don't feel able to answer, just move on and he'll find someone else to ask directions from anyway.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Good for them. I don't think they should have any obligation to learn English. But it qualifies as a major language in a way that their own language does not, and if they wanted to be exposed to it regularly, it would be quite easy.
You're posting on the literature board, you could read foreign works in their original language. You know damn well the only reason you don't learn a second language is out of spite, a moronic sense of superiority and lazyness. Fricking haitian children can do it and you can't.
>you could read foreign works in their original language.
Which language, hmm? I live in American and I don't even have contact or exposure with Spanish speakers, common as they are. I have no *particular* reason to choose this or that *particular* language. They are all of a similar group to me. I don't feel spite towards them, I just don't care enough about any particular one.
For culture, as avery hegemony understood up to this point. When uou say stuff like this you just show yourself as the contemporary equivalent of a 17th century farmer
8 months ago
Anonymous
I'll survive somehow.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, as a farmer
8 months ago
Anonymous
I don't need to impress anyone, and I don't have any reason to denigrate farmers and other honest laborers who are necessary for my survival.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The fact that you think that culture has its final end in "impressing other people" is why you're essentially a farmer. As such you can only talk for people of your kind
8 months ago
Anonymous
I would prefer not to associate with people who insult others by calling them farmers, so it seems I have made the correct decision.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Of course you have this preference, you're a farmer!
The peak of my English self-education has got to be listening to Taylor Swift and not only just understanding what is being said, but also appreciating the poetry involved. I finally can listen to music and not only fully understanding everything, but actually appreciating the effort put into the choice of words and the way that it rhymes. I don't care about learning English to a higher level than this, it satisfies my hedonism and I get great pleasure from music now.
ESL latino here. I was lucky enough as being born to a relatively well off family that homeschooled me for the majority of my school years. I have 3 close friends with which I talk in english as easily as in spanish, although perhaps not as fast.
In my opinion, English poetry mogs Spanish poetry. Homophones and slant rhyme are things only allowed by the English's eccentruc grammatical rules.
Which is a good thing because it makes language clearer. Words rhyme more easily in Spanish. In English, many words that seemingly rhyme don't actually rhyme and pronunciations can vastly change across different dialects.
every single great Sudaca/Spanish writer and scholar has said that even English is a richer language. grim
8 months ago
Anonymous
I only know of Borges’s homosexualry, and he was a notorious anglophile. Read his letters if you think he knew English. It’s child tier. His attitude comes from the era’s obsession with the “lingua franca”. Same happened with French in the 19th century. Writers saying it was better than their language.
>I was lucky enough as being born to a relatively well off family that homeschooled me for the majority of my school years
the absolute state
I dropped out of 7th grade and my English skills mog those that studied in university with a focus on English for various purposes. That being said, I studied in an European school for a while, but I skipped classes and never actually learned shit from it. I learned the most from playing videogames and arguing about a bunch of irrelevant shit over the internet for years, this leads me to believe that no matter what I'd reach a considerable level of English proficiency regardless of what I did, and I feel like there would have been lots of people in my position that would not have managed the same as me, without tooting my own horn here, I think I got more out of exposure to the same things than a lot of other people would have that hadn't been me.
I forgot tp mention that, just like you, I also used the internet almost exclusively in English. From videos, videogames, movies, anime, I've become accustomed to read and write in english simply by being online chronically.
One of the most important factors in learning a language is exposure. Exposure to English is very easy. In Europe I imagine exposure to other European languages is also quite easy, to greater or lesser degrees. Anywhere where multiple languages coexist leads to easy exposure and it can be easy even for uneducated people to learn multiple languages. To Anglos exposure to other languages is often nonexistent. Language learning resources will often detail strategies for how to gain exposure, because it's normally not available. Sometimes the only option is to physically move to another country. This is a major reason Anglos tend to be monolingual.
I don't like saying that I might have talent or anything similar to learning languages, but I moved from my native country at 7 and studied in a regular European school for natives until I was 13, during which I excelled within the language of the given country, and eventually progressed into learning English at my current level, which in itself took a while, but I felt like I was able to do it given some effort on my side. I don't know exactly what happened, I was never really a top student in any period of my life prior to moving countries, but I apparently had some type of leniency towards languages which was only evident after moving. I currently speak 3 languages fluently but my English is probably the language I am the best at, which makes no sense at all because for years after dropping out of 7th grade I went back to my native country and that's where I learned English through exposure alone. There's a lot of contributing factors behind learning English, and if you were to compare me to anybody else, reaching the level of fluency I have makes absolutely no sense as I didn't even really pick up a book or went to courses and instead learned at my own pace through my own means, the majority of which were exposure and immersion, something that happens to almost everyone nowadays and many still don't reach levels comparable to mine.
Sometimes I pity the unlucky American who was born in an english speaking country. He is already born into the common language of the world, and therefore he sees no reason to learn a language himself. He then is confronted by foreigners he scoffs at for being from inferior countries having an equal, if not better understanding of his own language besides his native language.
Enraged, he starts mocking them for not being born an English speaker, ready to pounce on any slight grammatical or syntactical mistake to then scream "ESL ESL ESL ESL" and then ignore any valid point the ESL speaker had made.
/thread.
ESL thread should be banned on sight on IQfy. Take this shit to IQfy, it's literally impossible to discuss language with americans here, maybe there they are a bit more open minded.
It's the same thing over and over again just as with threads about translations, americans think they authorities to judge which books are translatable and which are untranslatable even though they can not compare the work in multiple languages.
Guess what, fatties? It's not that hard at all to understand Shakespeare or Milton or whatever the frick, it's no big achievement.
I agree with your general sentiment, but as an ESL who love Shakespeare and Milton I can only partially agree with your last point. A Shakespearean play cannot be reduced to its plot and thenes (what, using your terminology, can be "understood"): there is a sense of musicality and an explicit poetic and rhytmic use of language which not only has high aesthetic qualities, but which can also become thematic (meaning that a translation could actually hinder the understanding of the play, for example by not preserving the rhytmic and prosodic frantic character of a verse).
I agree with what you said but by my last statement I meant it's no big achievement to understand Shakespeare or Milton in English for ESL people.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Frankly I think this is a stretch, more so if their first language is not a european language. Lots of ESL learners still struggle with even modern english. I've seen even some english professors completely misunderstand certain phrases in Shakespeare. You're setting the bar too high. Being able to enjoy Shakespeare and Milton as an ESL may not be something to brag about, but it certainly is a pretty huge achievement.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Lots of ESL learners still struggle with even modern english.
I agree.
However I bring you this question: what is the percentage of americans that could actually read and understand Shakespeare? This is not intended as shit-flinging at americans, just an example.
Honestly I think it's much more a question of exposure and familiarity with great literature than mastery of the actual language - or modern/informal language at least.
You can get an ESL that speaks and writes perfect English grammatically, that is able to express himself eloquently in English - unlike me. If he has not had contact with high brow literature he will struggle with Shakespeare, period. Just like a native american can and usually does struggle to read his plays, just like a Portuguese or Brazilian guy that does not read will struggle to read Camões, just like an Italian will struggle to read Ariosto.
My point is - and I maintain it - language is not the biggest barrier when it comes to reading classics, but rather it is a skill that you exercise reading complex texts.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Why wouldn't majority of Americans (with average IQ of 100) not understand Shakespeare? The structure of sentences and grammar is slightly different to modern English but once a person is familiar with it, he will understand most of it.
8 months ago
Anonymous
hey, I'm not the one arguing that it is hard to understand Shakespeare, on the contrary, my whole point is that it's actually not a big deal to understand him, even for an ESL.
glad we got it settled then
>Otro post sobre ESL
La pregunta que se debería hacer este tablero con mayor frecuencia es la de cómo aprender el español para regocijarse con su vasta e imponente literatura. No se ha escrito párrafo ni estrofa en inglés que iguale o supere la complejidad ni belleza de las obras en castellano. El inglés es una lengua comodín, un simple puente entre idiomas más profundos y elaborados. Me siento afortunado de no tener las limitaciones del cerebro anglosajón, es difícil imaginar un destino más lóbrego.
Imagine only knowing one language, stupid Anglo. Furthermore, English is one of the least poetic languages out there so there is not much depth to familiarize with. If you could comprehend Persian or Russian poetry, you would look at any English "poet" again
>become complete shut-in in my teens >quickly start reading articles and watching videos in English because the things I was into were basically translations of American sources >14 years later still shut-in basically living on the (English-speaking) Internet >forgot large portion of the vocabulary I had in my original language >my moronic English that I learned on IQfy is now better than my native Italian >will never use it IRL, where I can only communicate like a troglodyte in my native language
Should I just move to America? At least there I'd have an excuse for sounding like a moron.
Quanti anni hai? Ci sono moltissimi lavori che richiedono una buona conoscenza dell'inglese. E se proprio vuoi trasferirti non devi per forza andare in America, e neanche in Inghilterra. Per esempio potresti benissimo vivere in Germania, Belgio ed Olanda. Ti sconsiglio Francia, Grecia e Spagna, dato che lì é molto più facile trovare gente che non sa l'inglese
Being born in Italy, you should know there is no room for intellect in that forsaken country.
Comunque, per te sarebbe meglio andare in America, ma prima lavati il culo e la bocca perché non hanno bidet.
It's obviously a bait because the words "truly appreciate" can be redefined however you want. >why yes i've had a blast with Shakespeare >ohhh, but did you reeeeally appreciate him?
Nevertheless, I love English. It's a terrible thing how half of its words are German and another half is French, but I've found its laconicism fascinating. My mother tongue would never be able of such brevity. A good English prose always makes me smile.
Yes, why not? If you're fluent you can read anything. I read literature, philosophy, scientific texts in english no problem. Compared to the other languages I know O thonk English is the worst for art and poetry in general. Its not a very flexible language tht you can really play with like french or spanish etc.
Yet, in all your tirades; all your decrees of superior tongue – here you are, writing, reading in English. O what an unfair, uncaring, unbaringly cruellest of worlds you do live in.
ESL here.
We can try, but we will have a bad time if the vocabulary is to extense.
Poetry is out of the question, that's only enjoyable on native language.
Yeah but never in a way a native speaker would. Even though I use English daily, I think in English as much as my native lang, I have read many books in English, I consider myself pretty fluent... Still it feels inherently "foreign" and only when I hear my native lang it feels natural and deep. I can understand English only superficially. It's hard to explain, I can still read and appreciate English poetry, but for example when I encounter an uncommon word I can't, for the life of mine, naturally guess what it means by the sound of it. And I could in my native lang. So even though I could read and appreciate Finnegans Wake, reading a translation in my native lang, although worse, feels better, more snappy, more "right". And I imagine for most Anglos English is this way for them. I guess it's just something you can't get around as a human, it's like an unreachable C3 language level that only native speakers innately have
My primary discontent with the English spellings is the frequent misuses of "y",
(1) which has originally been defined as a vocal found in Greek loanwords in Latin language, while been used for several representations of sounds inclusive of a consonant in English language,
(2) and often omits the etymological atmosphere of the words.
For those two reasons, I hope some scholars alter the spellings involving "y" broadly in following ways, of course without affecting how they are pronounced.
1. y at Ends of Words
>words of French-Latin origin
y -> ie
>words of Anglo and other Germanic origin
y -> ig, (i)j (based on historical transitions)
If you have such an interest in the English language, you might consider looking at the McGuffey's Eclectic Readers. They take an interesting position that the ''W'' holds a similar place in the alphabet as the ''Y'', acting sometimes as a vowel.
ETL here.
Twf russian SL is broomstick-raped into you by 2nd grade so you know jevgeny Onegin by heart at 5th and are already having existential crisis by 7th BC trying to larp raskolnikov-smerdyakov meanwhile genuinely feeling like pechorin.
All meanwhile your native language is condemned by authorities.
ESLs will newer know the feel.
sounds fake, you are probably some rusbydlo posting for sake of mentioning some russian authors because otherwise everybody hates you.
I had russian at school and I have not read a single russian book in my life, in fact I gave 0 shits about the subject, I hardly know 10 russian words. In what kind of shithole do you live that you have russian as a second language and kids actually care about it and not ignore completely?
>ESL here (English as a Seventh Language). English is in fact superior to other languages, there is no doubt about it.
8 months ago
Anonymous
English is cool but oftentimes confused. Nothing superior, it's a just a regular, normal language that's easy to use because it displays little grammatical complexity. What's a superior language, one might ask? One that's got an ancient metaphysical and spiritual tradition to it. >Sanskrit >Old Avestan >Egyptian >Sumerian >Akkadian >Biblical Hebrew >Greek >Latin >Old Church Slavonic >Old Armenian >Coptic >Arabic >Ge'ez >Nahuatl >K'iche Mayan >medieval languages that somehow kept a lively metaphysical tradition such as Old Russian, Old French, Old High German, Old Italian, etc. >Native languages of folks that kept their own traditions throughout the world.
Present days English, being the language of modernity, of a Godless, profit-driven society, lacks a strong and authentic spiritual tradition. It, therefore, cannot be considered as a superior language, but it is a practical one, without a doubt. Q.E.D
8 months ago
Anonymous
>of a Godless, profit-driven society, lacks a strong and authentic spiritual tradition
These things are objectively irrelevant.
8 months ago
Anonymous
These things are actually relevant. But you are like a blind man who would try to prove that sight as a human sense does not exist because he says he never saw the light.
8 months ago
Anonymous
No blind man will do that except the religious type.
Science has not provided any evidence for any supernatural existence. Nothing in objective world indicates that supernatural exists.
Regarding the scientific method and proof, the very first thing to do is to question but fools like you don't even question your irrational beliefs. You just take it for granted, you are the definition of fools suffering from a mental disease.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Refer to my previous post. I'll pray for you in the meantime.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I have. Refer to my previous post about scientific method and proof. >pray for you
Don't do that! Your condition will only get worse.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The thing is you did not prove anything to me, nor did I prove anything to you. I should underline the fact that it is not my mission either, neither is it yours. Therefore, I must only pray for you to find grace and maybe, someday, you will take that chance. It is my duty since it will hopefully make your condition better. But of course, it is not up to any of us to take this decision. May you live happily.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I will be ok, don't worry about me, worry about the mental virus affecting your mind.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Bless you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Nahuatl
The spiritual tradition to this language is dead. It was exterminated as a language, to be later revived based on the notes of a Spaniard.
>had russian at school >have not read a single russian book in my life
What a waste of oxygen >what kind of shithole do you live in?
baltic states are not shithole you homosexual
Also the state of mind you're in...
It's over.jpg
Are you an ethnic russian? Did you go to a russian school?
8 months ago
Anonymous
I'm a Lithuanian israelite exiled from Petersburg, a mongrel actually. I hate Russians so much its impossible. At the same time I love their literature. I even like the late night shows with their unfunny humor. Its kinda comfy though despite the fact Russians have genocided my nation like for ever but I guess its just how the life is. My israelite blood allows me not to take it personally.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>I'm a Lithuanian israelite
You are either a israelite, a Lithuanian or a Russian. If you really have those feelings of eternal suffering and existential crisis then you are not Lithuanian and you are definitely not a israelite, you are Russian.
Cant speak for every language but compared to russian, english lacks so much in expressive power, i always feel like only 1/3rd of myself is getting out when i speak it. Byron and Shakespeare should have 2x memorials dedicated to them for doing so much with so little expressive and poetical power inherent in the language.
Why not
There is no such a thing as a second language.
Yes but only if their native language is a European language.
Probably only if their ancestry is European.
/misc/ moment
esl here.
Not really, luckly english allows no subtility nor poetry nor intelligence when written or spoken
ESL here.
Yes. Depends on complexity. Poetry being the worst in terms of difficulties of understanding and clarity. But that's the same for every language; poetry is always the hardest part. While understanding children when they speak is usually the greatest challenge when it comes to oral-comprehension.
And no offense but you're a moron if you really believe that 100%, unless you spend your time on Netflix and consume Globish which may be the reason why you cannot appreciate the subtleties of English.
I'm an ESLgay and I write poetry in English (mixed with my native language)
getting here was really difficult but it was worth it
Your first langage must be highly moronic to think of English as "subtle"
WOW, Dog, maybe you're a tad too moronic yourself to realize that you can say dumb stuff in every language. Also try to make a distinction between the 'language in itself and the way it can be used or is used effectively, though I doubt you can give your obvious moronicness
English, in its core structure, cannot convey complexity in a eleguant, poetic, non pedantic nor subtle maniere and that's a fact.
start coping
Rejoice because you've been given no brain. Go read Nietzsche in Zulu.
NTA but I think Borges explains it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYoqCDKoT4
That doesn’t say anything related to what that Anon said and it was already posted three times. Michael Hofmann actually echoes what he was saying about English not being subtle: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/09/books-interview-michael-hofmann-anglo-german-poet-critic-translator
there isn't anything 'subtle' in english, nor in german (if someone wants to consider it also)
If there is a word to describe something as "subtle" in a language, it means that a least a small proportion of its speakers are, in fact, able to comprehend that concept and therefore, express it. Simple as.
Nothing makes me happier than knowing you personally as an ESL will never be able to read and understand Finnegans Wake in its original language, ever, not in a million years
>what's your happiest memory in life, anon? a childhood friend? first kiss?
>the fact that some guy has a different interpretation of finnegans wake than me.
Not him but not even the vast majority of English speakers can understand it. Not even most readers of literature.
finwake is not even that difficult. verbalising it is half the battle. do you seriously consider it to be the toughest novel written in english?
Arrogance is the most common trait of the ESL. They truly believe that they know English better than the EFL, and can't accept that they only know it in the same way a tourist "knows" a country he's visited for a week. No ESL knows English as it actually is, only as a dead and stuffy thing that's spent too long indoors same shrivels in the sun.
Dog. I get you but, we, ESL-IQfyners are more than mere tourists when it comes to English. Please. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be able to state our points on the matter.
EFLs adopt your mindset only because they've never bothered to learn another language. They're ignorant, and project this ignorance on everyone else. Meanwhile ESLs actually engage with the English language (and other languages too) on a daily basis and realize that this kind of purism is pure idiocy.
You know right that Borges was an ESL, right?
>Arrogance is the most common trait of the ESL
lmaoing.
ESL arrogance is merely a result of not only arrogant but also ignorant americans.
> No ESL knows English as it actually is
you state this at the same time you post an ESL talking about english as if he was an authority on the subject.
lmao
Yes but it takes like 10 years of learning english, which fortunately(or unfortunately) most of us had to endure through school.
I'm at a point where I can appreciate Shakespeare and McCarthy but stuff like Gerald Murnane or Lucy Ellmann are honestly beyond my interest. There are some (ugly) books that only appeal to the anglo mind.
i don't know really. Translations in my own language (slavic) always read better to me than English. I feel like English is soulless. Which sucks because I want to appreciate English lit and poetry in its original.
I can if the plot is good
>Can ESLs truly appreciate English literature?
yes they can and they can appreciate it more than native speakers.
Nabokov mogged anglos so hard they haven't recovered
Easy Sex Languages
ESL here. While I might make some grammar mistake here and there, and while my pronunciation is absolutely atrocious, Ive found myself to be capable of understanding english literature at a level that is higher than the one of some of the native english speakers I have studied with. I could breeze through Shakespeare and extremely complex academic texts, while they would struggle with texts I would consider basic. It was quite embarassing, really.
But of course it is a matter of practice. While I might not be inclined to use all of it, it is still the case that I know far more English words than your average native English speaker, and my philosophical education made me more capable of dealing with difficult new concepts. I doubt most ESLs are at this level of proficiency.
ESL cope
Typical anglo butthurt
Probably an illiterate american
>I could breeze through shakespeare
With the help of supplementary material, I assume? Still impressive though. How did you not struggle at first when you're someone not from his time?
I actually think ESL have a big advantage when it comes to older texts, namely the fact that there are modern translations in their own language. Similarly I find Italian students often struggling with, say, Dante and Petrarch, while English students can usually work on more accessible translation and then compare them to the original text. Do it enough times and eventually you will start getting an intuitive grasp of Shakespearean English (or Dantean Italian). On the other hand native speakers usually are stuck with a myriad of notes, and have to check costantly dictionaries, which slows down the learning process and makes it way more frustrating.
>comparing modern translations to the actual text
lol
Yes, mostly to start making sense of sentence structures and older terms. Basically, you use those translations just to get a very general sense of what is being said. But I understand your reaction, maybe you think I'm talking about Emily Wilson-type of translations. Rest assured that I am not.
This could be the case for some people, but I am sure I wasn't making mistakes of these sort, since I had the opportunity to discuss them in depth with scholars who had English as their native language. In general I think that Shakespeare is not as hard as one might think, you just have to keep reading him. With enough practice you'll even end up being capable of thinking in his literary style.
I would add, but this is just personal experience, that having already learnt other language is very useful when it comes to engaging with older texts of this kind. Personally, by the time I got to Shakespeare I was already capable of reading contemporary English, French and Latin.
dimmi chi è che struggla con dante lol
>struggla
Ti picchio
I gave an ESL a piece of complex poetry once and asked if he could read it. He told me that he could easily understand it but when I dug deeper he was mistaking verbs for nouns and other such things.
Yeah, but we shouldn't
>tfw fluent in 3 languages but still use ESL as an insult
Back to led dit little Black
ESL (Europeans)? Sure.
ESL (Shitskins)? Never.
This is the biggest reason why Americans dumbed the language down, to make it easier on its swarthy populace.
As if Europe's literature is any better these days.
>read text in English
>vocabulary is considerable enough to make sense of most things
>never had an issue
>find out later on that it's a translation of German to English
>can't figure out whether I'm bad at English or whether the translation was subpar
Anyone else?
>Anyone else?
No, I always know when I'm reading a translation.
It feels like to me you can either be very good at understanding native English or you can be very good at understanding English written by people that aren't natives and I feel like I'm good at understanding English when written by natives, but whenever I find myself in a situation where it's non-natives I get confused.
Examples?
I have examples from real life and from this one text I was reading, in theory when you're good at English you should be able to understand everyone equally, but I've gotten used to natives and their potential mistakes and overall flow of how they articulate themselves. In real life, for example, there are people who speak English and make mistakes that isn't predictable based on their mother tongue, the errors can completely ruin any ability of me trying to make sense of what they're saying and I have to rely on their ability to express themselves as closely to natives as possible, when that is something very difficult to achieve. Accents and such aside, just choice of words and overall unnatural combinations that disrupt the flow of what is trying to be said can be a problem for me. I sometimes think I've shot myself on the foot by emulating natives too much because I have a hard time understanding non-natives, as opposed to certain people who have had far more exposure to non-natives and have a more adaptable way of understanding English when spoken by non-natives, whereas I feel as if my understanding or mastery of the language is very linear and rigid.
I can't specifically give examples, by the way, because I feel like I don't use the language in real life nearly enough to have a reliable way of determining whether it's isolated cases or if it is really like that all of the time. I can use the text I was reading as an example, though, since I've spent most of my time reading and writing, so I'll use that; there wasn't a very comprehensive nor natural use of the vocabulary, there were words being repeated often, quite literally the same two words being used over 4 times and it presents itself as a poor translation overall, which to me sometimes makes me confused because I don't consider myself to be the best at English, but I feel like there was potential for describing it in an alternate way that could have made more sense instead of writing it in a way that made it seem as if the vocabulary of the translator might not have been that expansive.
/pol/tards ruin a thread (episode 8876365)
Angloids should learn another language instead of eating beans and drinking corn syrup
English is inferior to any romance language, this is a fact, it'll never be able to express the emotions and complexity French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese can. English is the lingua france of the world becase of world war 2 and because it is piss easy to learn. The title should go back to French, tbh.
>French, aka the language in which one spoken word can be witter in 10 ways.
That is exactly my point, english is assembly manual tier while French can be subtle and deep.
Then quit IQfy and go flex on JVC
i unironically used jvc to learn french. /fr/ is mostly jvc too
and that is bad because ?
>English is the lingua france of the world becase of world war 2 and because it is piss easy to learn.
It is easy to learn "conversational" level English, and this applies to most other languages too but to be able to speak like native or at least have perfect grammar if not accent) is not easy at all.
Have you seen the level of American English these days?
I have, I do not consider those people to be English speakers. Instead of learning English as a native language they learned Broken English as a native language. Learning to speak like them should not be anyones goal.
Learning proper, correct English as a second language to the point where one can speak it just like a native is very hard.
The other anon was saying that learning English was very easy but learning other languages were hard.
>but to be able to speak like native or at least have perfect grammar if not accent) is not easy at all.
lol.
Let me use your own words.
>"this applies to most other languages too"
English is easy to learn because the US has had a massive influence on the entire west - which is a really sad fact.
Aside from real life conversations, when it came to consuming music, movies, games, the ratio of english content to my native language is like 100:1. Any other language in comparison to english really lacks material online - or at least good material, movies/songs/games that genuinely interest you rather than watching a moronic comedy movie just for the sake of practicing the language. For instance with italian, I wanted to find Fellini's films with italian subtitles and I couldn't find most of them. Same with Pasolini.
French or italian would be just as easy to learn if France had as much influence as the US, if people consumed stuff in french not for the language, but for the content itself.
>the US has had a massive influence on the entire west
A lot of the influence to which you refer was generated by trading companies in conjunction with military conquests that were nominally British. Parsing this influence from American influence is often difficult.
The issue is not the language but the people that use it. English, German and Arabic are high IQ languages. French, Italian and Japanese and mid IQ languages. Spanish, Indian, Chinese and african languages are Shit tier IQ languages
Excellent b8
Most moronic post in this thread. You could have not picked worse examples
>The issue is not the language but the people that use it. English, German and Arabic are high IQ languages. French, Italian and Japanese and mid IQ languages. Spanish, Indian, Chinese and african languages are Shit tier IQ languages
Wait, you're a Black? That explains a lot lol
Can native English speakers ever properly understand and appreciate foreign languages when they miraculously manage to learn one?
No.
My theory has been that unless I devote a great quantity of time to learn a language and its surrounding culture in great fluency, then the understanding I would get from reading its literature untranslated would be inferior to what I would get from a good (annotated) translation. So, since there is no language I care about learning to that high a degree, I don't bother.
you are (clearly) moronic
This is a very stupid mindset. I'm not trying to dunk on you, I used to share it too. Then I learnt another language and I realized that what you've said was just rationalized laziness. But you have to experience it yourself in order to understand how stupid this narrative truly is.
Actually makes sense
This is true. Immagine how long it took you to understand complex literary metaphors and themes. Now immagine doing it again at a much older age and having to start all over again, not even knowing literal meanings of sentences.
English mogs any other language and it's not even close. Coping in 3..2..1
British English, yes. American English, LOLNO
American English is closer to what the best English poets spoke than today’s British English, which came about at around the time of the industrial revolution.
That's a myth. Wordsworth didn't use ebonics like Americans do.
Not every American is a Black or speaks the Black dialect. Have you spent any time amongst educated Americans or are you basing this opinion on your exposure to Americans across the internet that you do not even know, and that may not even be Americans? I would not judge you based on my experience with Pakis.
>American English is closer to what the best English poets spoke than today’s British English, which came about at around the time of the industrial revolution
This is worn out cliche. I am currently reading Pickwick Papers and find it to be indiscernible from my native tongue. You are likely comparing the tongue of a literate Briton with that of an American monkey. Literate Americans share the same tongue with literate Britons, with only very minor differences.
Something that ESLs don't understand is that, for a native English speaker, to learn a second language is to choose some particular culture out of many competing, provincial cultures which you have no meaningful or regular contact with, and decide to spend years learning that language purely out of specific interest. For most people there is simply no motivation or reason to make a particular decision in this way.
>For most people there is simply no motivation or reason to make a particular decision in this way.
This is more of an indictment of your people.
No, you do not understand the point I am making. Why should I particularly care about French, or German, or Spanish, or whatever language you want to appeal to, such that I would learn their language and not another one? I don't have a strong enough interest in one of these particular places. They are not a language that I interact with, ever, in my daily life. They are something I would need to go out of my way and struggle to have any meaningful exposure to. Your situation regarding English is completely the opposite of my situation regarding whatever language you natively speak.
>Daily posts on IQfy
>"uuh I have to go out of my way to interact with such languages"
Holy mother of cope, just admit you're lazy, stop rationalizing
Oh wow I can read some shitposts in some thread on IQfy, a board I don't care about. Truly amazing. You also don't address my point of why I should care enough about one of these particular localities to learn their language and not another one. For you English is the lingua franca, for me your language is some minor language that has no relevance to my life. If I had some deep abiding interest in Germany or wherever, I could see putting in the effort, but I don't.
You're posting on the literature board, you could read foreign works in their original language. You know damn well the only reason you don't learn a second language is out of spite, a moronic sense of superiority and lazyness. Fricking haitian children can do it and you can't.
Someone living in Europe can perfectly live thir life without speaking a word of English or not caring to learn it in a thorough manner. It's not just supposedly "uneducated" people as some on here might think, but I know university professors here who do not speak English (sometimes for idiological reasons which are stupid ofc) or were proficient in other languages. Even in great Europeans cities, you can live your life without speaking English and if a tourist comes to you, addresses you in English and you don't feel able to answer, just move on and he'll find someone else to ask directions from anyway.
Good for them. I don't think they should have any obligation to learn English. But it qualifies as a major language in a way that their own language does not, and if they wanted to be exposed to it regularly, it would be quite easy.
>you could read foreign works in their original language.
Which language, hmm? I live in American and I don't even have contact or exposure with Spanish speakers, common as they are. I have no *particular* reason to choose this or that *particular* language. They are all of a similar group to me. I don't feel spite towards them, I just don't care enough about any particular one.
For culture, as avery hegemony understood up to this point. When uou say stuff like this you just show yourself as the contemporary equivalent of a 17th century farmer
I'll survive somehow.
Yes, as a farmer
I don't need to impress anyone, and I don't have any reason to denigrate farmers and other honest laborers who are necessary for my survival.
The fact that you think that culture has its final end in "impressing other people" is why you're essentially a farmer. As such you can only talk for people of your kind
I would prefer not to associate with people who insult others by calling them farmers, so it seems I have made the correct decision.
Of course you have this preference, you're a farmer!
Behold, a chicken.
Definition of a bleak American life.
there are very european or even oriental countires out there that have worse literary tradition than england, so why bother
Most ESLs are more fluent in English than your average race mixed Amerimongrel
The peak of my English self-education has got to be listening to Taylor Swift and not only just understanding what is being said, but also appreciating the poetry involved. I finally can listen to music and not only fully understanding everything, but actually appreciating the effort put into the choice of words and the way that it rhymes. I don't care about learning English to a higher level than this, it satisfies my hedonism and I get great pleasure from music now.
ESL latino here. I was lucky enough as being born to a relatively well off family that homeschooled me for the majority of my school years. I have 3 close friends with which I talk in english as easily as in spanish, although perhaps not as fast.
In my opinion, English poetry mogs Spanish poetry. Homophones and slant rhyme are things only allowed by the English's eccentruc grammatical rules.
>Homophones and wordplay don't exist in Spanish
All that money and you're still a moron.
They exist, but they are not as common as in english.
Which is a good thing because it makes language clearer. Words rhyme more easily in Spanish. In English, many words that seemingly rhyme don't actually rhyme and pronunciations can vastly change across different dialects.
Spanish is a braindead language and gets even worse in sudamerica
Filtered
every single great Sudaca/Spanish writer and scholar has said that even English is a richer language. grim
I only know of Borges’s homosexualry, and he was a notorious anglophile. Read his letters if you think he knew English. It’s child tier. His attitude comes from the era’s obsession with the “lingua franca”. Same happened with French in the 19th century. Writers saying it was better than their language.
>I was lucky enough as being born to a relatively well off family that homeschooled me for the majority of my school years
the absolute state
I dropped out of 7th grade and my English skills mog those that studied in university with a focus on English for various purposes. That being said, I studied in an European school for a while, but I skipped classes and never actually learned shit from it. I learned the most from playing videogames and arguing about a bunch of irrelevant shit over the internet for years, this leads me to believe that no matter what I'd reach a considerable level of English proficiency regardless of what I did, and I feel like there would have been lots of people in my position that would not have managed the same as me, without tooting my own horn here, I think I got more out of exposure to the same things than a lot of other people would have that hadn't been me.
I forgot tp mention that, just like you, I also used the internet almost exclusively in English. From videos, videogames, movies, anime, I've become accustomed to read and write in english simply by being online chronically.
One of the most important factors in learning a language is exposure. Exposure to English is very easy. In Europe I imagine exposure to other European languages is also quite easy, to greater or lesser degrees. Anywhere where multiple languages coexist leads to easy exposure and it can be easy even for uneducated people to learn multiple languages. To Anglos exposure to other languages is often nonexistent. Language learning resources will often detail strategies for how to gain exposure, because it's normally not available. Sometimes the only option is to physically move to another country. This is a major reason Anglos tend to be monolingual.
I don't like saying that I might have talent or anything similar to learning languages, but I moved from my native country at 7 and studied in a regular European school for natives until I was 13, during which I excelled within the language of the given country, and eventually progressed into learning English at my current level, which in itself took a while, but I felt like I was able to do it given some effort on my side. I don't know exactly what happened, I was never really a top student in any period of my life prior to moving countries, but I apparently had some type of leniency towards languages which was only evident after moving. I currently speak 3 languages fluently but my English is probably the language I am the best at, which makes no sense at all because for years after dropping out of 7th grade I went back to my native country and that's where I learned English through exposure alone. There's a lot of contributing factors behind learning English, and if you were to compare me to anybody else, reaching the level of fluency I have makes absolutely no sense as I didn't even really pick up a book or went to courses and instead learned at my own pace through my own means, the majority of which were exposure and immersion, something that happens to almost everyone nowadays and many still don't reach levels comparable to mine.
ESL here and the answer is yes 🙂
Sometimes I pity the unlucky American who was born in an english speaking country. He is already born into the common language of the world, and therefore he sees no reason to learn a language himself. He then is confronted by foreigners he scoffs at for being from inferior countries having an equal, if not better understanding of his own language besides his native language.
Enraged, he starts mocking them for not being born an English speaker, ready to pounce on any slight grammatical or syntactical mistake to then scream "ESL ESL ESL ESL" and then ignore any valid point the ESL speaker had made.
/thread.
ESL thread should be banned on sight on IQfy. Take this shit to IQfy, it's literally impossible to discuss language with americans here, maybe there they are a bit more open minded.
It's the same thing over and over again just as with threads about translations, americans think they authorities to judge which books are translatable and which are untranslatable even though they can not compare the work in multiple languages.
Guess what, fatties? It's not that hard at all to understand Shakespeare or Milton or whatever the frick, it's no big achievement.
I agree with your general sentiment, but as an ESL who love Shakespeare and Milton I can only partially agree with your last point. A Shakespearean play cannot be reduced to its plot and thenes (what, using your terminology, can be "understood"): there is a sense of musicality and an explicit poetic and rhytmic use of language which not only has high aesthetic qualities, but which can also become thematic (meaning that a translation could actually hinder the understanding of the play, for example by not preserving the rhytmic and prosodic frantic character of a verse).
I agree with what you said but by my last statement I meant it's no big achievement to understand Shakespeare or Milton in English for ESL people.
Frankly I think this is a stretch, more so if their first language is not a european language. Lots of ESL learners still struggle with even modern english. I've seen even some english professors completely misunderstand certain phrases in Shakespeare. You're setting the bar too high. Being able to enjoy Shakespeare and Milton as an ESL may not be something to brag about, but it certainly is a pretty huge achievement.
>Lots of ESL learners still struggle with even modern english.
I agree.
However I bring you this question: what is the percentage of americans that could actually read and understand Shakespeare? This is not intended as shit-flinging at americans, just an example.
Honestly I think it's much more a question of exposure and familiarity with great literature than mastery of the actual language - or modern/informal language at least.
You can get an ESL that speaks and writes perfect English grammatically, that is able to express himself eloquently in English - unlike me. If he has not had contact with high brow literature he will struggle with Shakespeare, period. Just like a native american can and usually does struggle to read his plays, just like a Portuguese or Brazilian guy that does not read will struggle to read Camões, just like an Italian will struggle to read Ariosto.
My point is - and I maintain it - language is not the biggest barrier when it comes to reading classics, but rather it is a skill that you exercise reading complex texts.
Why wouldn't majority of Americans (with average IQ of 100) not understand Shakespeare? The structure of sentences and grammar is slightly different to modern English but once a person is familiar with it, he will understand most of it.
hey, I'm not the one arguing that it is hard to understand Shakespeare, on the contrary, my whole point is that it's actually not a big deal to understand him, even for an ESL.
glad we got it settled then
>Otro post sobre ESL
La pregunta que se debería hacer este tablero con mayor frecuencia es la de cómo aprender el español para regocijarse con su vasta e imponente literatura. No se ha escrito párrafo ni estrofa en inglés que iguale o supere la complejidad ni belleza de las obras en castellano. El inglés es una lengua comodín, un simple puente entre idiomas más profundos y elaborados. Me siento afortunado de no tener las limitaciones del cerebro anglosajón, es difícil imaginar un destino más lóbrego.
Whatever monkey say, monkey do
Callese la jeta papi
Imagine only knowing one language, stupid Anglo. Furthermore, English is one of the least poetic languages out there so there is not much depth to familiarize with. If you could comprehend Persian or Russian poetry, you would look at any English "poet" again
>become complete shut-in in my teens
>quickly start reading articles and watching videos in English because the things I was into were basically translations of American sources
>14 years later still shut-in basically living on the (English-speaking) Internet
>forgot large portion of the vocabulary I had in my original language
>my moronic English that I learned on IQfy is now better than my native Italian
>will never use it IRL, where I can only communicate like a troglodyte in my native language
Should I just move to America? At least there I'd have an excuse for sounding like a moron.
Quanti anni hai? Ci sono moltissimi lavori che richiedono una buona conoscenza dell'inglese. E se proprio vuoi trasferirti non devi per forza andare in America, e neanche in Inghilterra. Per esempio potresti benissimo vivere in Germania, Belgio ed Olanda. Ti sconsiglio Francia, Grecia e Spagna, dato che lì é molto più facile trovare gente che non sa l'inglese
Try reading the Divine Comedy to restore your italian and see if that works
Terrible advice, the DC is too hard for most native speakers. He should pick some Leopardi instead
I was shitposting. The idea of reading in your own language is still good, but I don't know anything else the Italians have written
Being born in Italy, you should know there is no room for intellect in that forsaken country.
Comunque, per te sarebbe meglio andare in America, ma prima lavati il culo e la bocca perché non hanno bidet.
It's obviously a bait because the words "truly appreciate" can be redefined however you want.
>why yes i've had a blast with Shakespeare
>ohhh, but did you reeeeally appreciate him?
Nevertheless, I love English. It's a terrible thing how half of its words are German and another half is French, but I've found its laconicism fascinating. My mother tongue would never be able of such brevity. A good English prose always makes me smile.
i know poe's raven by soul
t. esl
Sure. English is my second language but I’m entirely fluent, read Shakespeare and everything.
Yes, why not? If you're fluent you can read anything. I read literature, philosophy, scientific texts in english no problem. Compared to the other languages I know O thonk English is the worst for art and poetry in general. Its not a very flexible language tht you can really play with like french or spanish etc.
Yet, in all your tirades; all your decrees of superior tongue – here you are, writing, reading in English. O what an unfair, uncaring, unbaringly cruellest of worlds you do live in.
ESL here.
We can try, but we will have a bad time if the vocabulary is to extense.
Poetry is out of the question, that's only enjoyable on native language.
speak for yourself
Yeah but never in a way a native speaker would. Even though I use English daily, I think in English as much as my native lang, I have read many books in English, I consider myself pretty fluent... Still it feels inherently "foreign" and only when I hear my native lang it feels natural and deep. I can understand English only superficially. It's hard to explain, I can still read and appreciate English poetry, but for example when I encounter an uncommon word I can't, for the life of mine, naturally guess what it means by the sound of it. And I could in my native lang. So even though I could read and appreciate Finnegans Wake, reading a translation in my native lang, although worse, feels better, more snappy, more "right". And I imagine for most Anglos English is this way for them. I guess it's just something you can't get around as a human, it's like an unreachable C3 language level that only native speakers innately have
My primary discontent with the English spellings is the frequent misuses of "y",
(1) which has originally been defined as a vocal found in Greek loanwords in Latin language, while been used for several representations of sounds inclusive of a consonant in English language,
(2) and often omits the etymological atmosphere of the words.
For those two reasons, I hope some scholars alter the spellings involving "y" broadly in following ways, of course without affecting how they are pronounced.
1. y at Ends of Words
>words of French-Latin origin
y -> ie
>words of Anglo and other Germanic origin
y -> ig, (i)j (based on historical transitions)
ex.
discoverie, communitie, crie(cry), deploie
hardlig(hardly), luckig(lucky), flig(fly), saig(say)
bij(by), mij(my), thej(they), spraj(spray)
2. y at Beginnings of Words
>words of Anglo and other Germanic origin
y -> ge, j (based on historical transitions)
ex.
geard(yard), gesterdaig(yesterday), gellow(yellow)
jouth(youth), jear(year), New Jork(New York)
3. y in Middle of Words
>words of French-Latin origin
y -> j
ex. lojal(loyal), vojage(voyage), crajon(crayon)
>words of Greek origin
y -> y (as is, since it's the only case of "y"'s appropriate succession.)
ex. hydrogen, system, psychologie(psychology), analyze
That's the summarie of mij thoughts.
Wishing jou a nice daig!
point three if off. In French, those words are spelled with an intervocalic 'y' the exact same way as their English counterparts.
t. Le French
If you have such an interest in the English language, you might consider looking at the McGuffey's Eclectic Readers. They take an interesting position that the ''W'' holds a similar place in the alphabet as the ''Y'', acting sometimes as a vowel.
ETL here.
Twf russian SL is broomstick-raped into you by 2nd grade so you know jevgeny Onegin by heart at 5th and are already having existential crisis by 7th BC trying to larp raskolnikov-smerdyakov meanwhile genuinely feeling like pechorin.
All meanwhile your native language is condemned by authorities.
ESLs will newer know the feel.
sounds fake, you are probably some rusbydlo posting for sake of mentioning some russian authors because otherwise everybody hates you.
I had russian at school and I have not read a single russian book in my life, in fact I gave 0 shits about the subject, I hardly know 10 russian words. In what kind of shithole do you live that you have russian as a second language and kids actually care about it and not ignore completely?
ESL here (English as a Sixth Language). At the least end of the day I will read more English books than the average Angloid so I’m already superior.
>ESL here (English as a Seventh Language). English is in fact superior to other languages, there is no doubt about it.
English is cool but oftentimes confused. Nothing superior, it's a just a regular, normal language that's easy to use because it displays little grammatical complexity. What's a superior language, one might ask? One that's got an ancient metaphysical and spiritual tradition to it.
>Sanskrit
>Old Avestan
>Egyptian
>Sumerian
>Akkadian
>Biblical Hebrew
>Greek
>Latin
>Old Church Slavonic
>Old Armenian
>Coptic
>Arabic
>Ge'ez
>Nahuatl
>K'iche Mayan
>medieval languages that somehow kept a lively metaphysical tradition such as Old Russian, Old French, Old High German, Old Italian, etc.
>Native languages of folks that kept their own traditions throughout the world.
Present days English, being the language of modernity, of a Godless, profit-driven society, lacks a strong and authentic spiritual tradition. It, therefore, cannot be considered as a superior language, but it is a practical one, without a doubt. Q.E.D
>of a Godless, profit-driven society, lacks a strong and authentic spiritual tradition
These things are objectively irrelevant.
These things are actually relevant. But you are like a blind man who would try to prove that sight as a human sense does not exist because he says he never saw the light.
No blind man will do that except the religious type.
Science has not provided any evidence for any supernatural existence. Nothing in objective world indicates that supernatural exists.
Regarding the scientific method and proof, the very first thing to do is to question but fools like you don't even question your irrational beliefs. You just take it for granted, you are the definition of fools suffering from a mental disease.
Refer to my previous post. I'll pray for you in the meantime.
I have. Refer to my previous post about scientific method and proof.
>pray for you
Don't do that! Your condition will only get worse.
The thing is you did not prove anything to me, nor did I prove anything to you. I should underline the fact that it is not my mission either, neither is it yours. Therefore, I must only pray for you to find grace and maybe, someday, you will take that chance. It is my duty since it will hopefully make your condition better. But of course, it is not up to any of us to take this decision. May you live happily.
I will be ok, don't worry about me, worry about the mental virus affecting your mind.
Bless you.
>Nahuatl
The spiritual tradition to this language is dead. It was exterminated as a language, to be later revived based on the notes of a Spaniard.
>had russian at school
>have not read a single russian book in my life
What a waste of oxygen
>what kind of shithole do you live in?
baltic states are not shithole you homosexual
Also the state of mind you're in...
It's over.jpg
Are you an ethnic russian? Did you go to a russian school?
I'm a Lithuanian israelite exiled from Petersburg, a mongrel actually. I hate Russians so much its impossible. At the same time I love their literature. I even like the late night shows with their unfunny humor. Its kinda comfy though despite the fact Russians have genocided my nation like for ever but I guess its just how the life is. My israelite blood allows me not to take it personally.
>I'm a Lithuanian israelite
You are either a israelite, a Lithuanian or a Russian. If you really have those feelings of eternal suffering and existential crisis then you are not Lithuanian and you are definitely not a israelite, you are Russian.
I'm more like etl
Cant speak for every language but compared to russian, english lacks so much in expressive power, i always feel like only 1/3rd of myself is getting out when i speak it. Byron and Shakespeare should have 2x memorials dedicated to them for doing so much with so little expressive and poetical power inherent in the language.
If someone had put this thread through grammarly it would've had by far the worst score on this board. Nice b8, OP, Fedora tip well deserved.
Better than those native speakers that write "would of".
I can, the bulk of the language is very easy.