Can he be saved by the Son of Man? What about commander data?
>"but I didn't have breakfast this morning!"
Shut the frick up sperg and answer the question.
Can he be saved by the Son of Man? What about commander data?
Can he be saved by the Son of Man? What about commander data?
>"but I didn't have breakfast this morning!"
Shut the frick up sperg and answer the question.
I'm not a Christian but I'm pretty sure anything that has the capacity for belief can be "saved"
It's up to the Star Trek writing staff to tell us if Data can "believe" or not
I can see it being a problem due to the OG sin of Adam. What about Islam? I don't think they have the same problem.
Panspermia is canon in Star Trek, so you could argue that Klingons are also descended from Adam.
>Son of Man
So you're a israelite who doesn't recognize the king of heaven?
Klingons and Christianity are a better match than people might expect at first.
"Christianity fits well into the Klingon culture, though first impressions may seem to be to the contrary.
Klingons are warriors, first and above all. The Klingon's devotion to the empire, to one's family and to personal honor, is well established. Along with this particular attention to honor is a strong attachment to duty, even to the point of death. For the Klingon, death is not feared. Remember the the Klingon proverb, "Today is a good day to die."
Klingons are not satisfied in peace, even a "peace of the brave," as the Palestinians and Israelis are presently engaged in discovering. For the Klingon, peace is a catastrophe, for it leaves no opportunity to cover oneself in glorious deeds. There is a Klingon proverb, "Pity only the warrior who has defeated all his enemies."
So, where does this leave the Klingon who is at peace with the Federation, who is surrounded with species that will not fight, with Romulans that hide behind a neutral zone, with Cardassians who are cowed and the Dominion who are a dying people? Without an enemy, is it true that Klingons will fight amongst themselves and destroy the empire? It cannot be."
thanks ChatGPT
Thanks for the effortpost anon, this was good.
Not my work, but there are a surprising number of Christians on the internet who see parallels with Klingon culture.
Klingons say they killed their gods. Christians say something similar, just that their God is stronger because he rose again
I just ripped off a Star Trek gamer blog.
"Christianity is a warrior's religion. It offers the Klingon enemies worth fighting: Sin, Death, Satan and his legions. And the greatest holy war of all, a jihad to thrill the heart of a true warrior, the war to dominate one's own will. This is a glorious fight, and one that any true warrior relishes. "If a Klingon does not fight, he does not breathe."
As Paul, that most Klingon of apostles told Timothy, "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." (I Tim. 6.12) A Klingon is attracted by such language. But there is more. In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, written by John, it is told, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12.7-8)
And Paul tells of these israelites and their warrior hearts. "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and Barak, and Samson, and Jephthae; David also, and Samuel, and the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection. (Heb. 11.32-35)"
Look at this section from a letter written by Paul to the Ephesians and say that Christians are not warriors!
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" (Eph. 6.11-17)
Indeed, Klingons accept the teachings of Christ as part of a warrior tradition. Christ brings not peace, but a sword. And this batlh'etlh is a sword of honor indeed!
Ka Plah!!!
Is the image of Christ as the humble and suffering servant compatible with Klingon attitudes? More to the point, how would a Klingon warrior react to the fragile, demure, and subjugated figure of Christ hanging upon a cross? Ah! Of course a Klingon would reject such a figure, presented as it has been by countless Renaissance artists and Sunday School teachers over the years.
But that is not the true picture of Christ. Christ was a robust and strong man, capable of fashioning a whip out of cords and using it to drive the corrupt moneychangers out of the temple area, all the while overturning heavy tables. He went fishing at a time when fishing was hard labor indeed. But this pales in comparison to his endurance and courage at the end of his life.
After enduring the taunts of his captors, their beating him with fists, being trundled roughly from one judge to another, Christ is beaten close to death with a Roman flagellum, a whip with each leather lash weighted with a heavy piece of metal, or sometimes bone, that would rip into flesh, bruise the muscle, and then tear the flesh as it was pulled away. After stretching him on a pole so that his skin was taut, the flagellum was used by a trained Roman guard to flay his skin from his back. People often died from this abuse, but Christ survived.
The Roman soldiers fitted a crown of thorns roughly onto his head. These Judean thorns were like spikes often an inch or two in length. They placed a heavy robe on his back and taunted him with more beatings. When they removed the crown and robe, the coagulated blood would have been pulled away and all of his wounds, especially the raw flesh of his back, would have been re-opened. Medical experts predict, at this point, that Christ's loss of blood should have at least put him into shock, possibly killing a normal man.
This man, Jesus, carried a heavy piece of timber to the place of crucifixion. The blood-loss was so severe that after stumbling several times, an observer was pressed into carrying it for him part of the way.
Jesus was then pinned to this rough wooden cross, which undoubtedly opened his back wounds again. Through each wrist, a large iron spike was hammered. Medical experts conjecture that this was done mostly to cause unendurable pain, for the nail would surely pierce the radial nerve, causing a burning pain throughout the arm and shoulder and chest. The Roman guards, well-trained and adept at causing maximum suffering, would put another spike through the front of both feet.
Christ was so exhausted by this ordeal that every word he spoke was torture. To take a breath, even a shallow one, required that he lift his weight onto the nailed feet, an excruciating ordeal. As he tired, he bought each breath with pain.
To the Klingon, this illustrates a feature of Christ's personality that is often neglected. The Klingon Rite of Ascension requires that the initiate walk between two rows of warriors armed with pain sticks. This is sometimes called The Way of Blood. It is a test of a warrior's commitment and courage. Christ satisfied this requirement and much, much more. And this act was no punishment for a criminal, as the Romans intended, nor was it a rite that had only a symbolic meaning.
Christ did not run from this pain; he welcomed it. His sacrifice was an act of will. In this crucifixion, Christ defeated his enemies. And this is what makes him a suitable savior for the Klingon as well as the human and all races.
Aliens don't exist.
Calivinism has no honor
I will continue dumping until I stop finding relevant content.
WHY SHOULD KLINGONS FOLLOW CHRIST?
Imagine for a moment that a Klingon visiting 24th century Earth, is stopped by a person on a busy street who then asks, "have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior?" A very puzzled Klingon replies "no", is handed a Bible tract, and sent on his way. This Klingon has read all the ancient texts, and knows all the great deeds of qeyleS (Kahless) the Unforgettable. He knows that there is life after death, great and noble warriors join the honored dead in QI’tu’ (paradise), where their qa’ (spirit) will live in the halls of SIto’vo’qor (Sto-Vo-Kor) with qeyleS forever. He knows that qeyleS will return someday.
He also knows that the dishonored dead suffer a worse fate, traveling to ghe’’or (Gre’Thor) on the Barge of the Dead where they face eternal damnation in the realm of the veqlargh (Fek’lhr).
He even knows of the Prophecy of the quv'a'maH (Kuvah'Magh), written on ancient Scrolls found in a cave. He is familiar with all the tIghmey (customs) and lurDechmey (traditions) of his people. In truth, he is a very good Klingon. But he has never heard of Jesus Christ. (yeSu’a QaySt) Curious, and a bit skeptical, he reads the bible tract. This raises more questions then ever in his mind, and after consulting the cultural database, he proceeds to read the ancient Terran text known as The Bible.
After a thorough examination of the Bible he see that the message of QaySt is the same as that of qeyleS, it is all about honor, duty , and obedience. Those who follow QaySt have eternal life in Heaven where they dwell forever in a great city of Gold with QaySt. QaySt is not qeyleS. qeyleS was a great patriarch of the Klingon Race, like Moses or Abraham was to the ancient israelites of Terra. QaySt is the quv'a'maH, the Savior. He is The One True Qunna’ (Definite, Great God)
Let me ask you two simple questions?
1. Are you a Klingon?
2. Are you aware that Jesus is the Klingon Messiah?
You may be thinking to yourself, "Me worship Jesus? But I'm a Klingon!"
Not only should Klingons worship Jesus but Jesus is the messiah the Klingons have been waiting for all along.
Do you like torture?
Well Jesus was tortured for days and days on the cross and we at Klingons for Jesus encourage you to look at pictures of it.
Do you like war and conquest?
Jesus' followers conquered most of the known world, enslaving and colonizing it country by country and forcing its inhabitants to worship Jesus and we here at Klingons for Jesus are carrying on his mission.
Do you like killing people?
Jesus' followers have massacred hundreds of millions of people throughout history! Christians are the biggest killers in the universe. As a Christian you'll be able to go on crusades and murder millions for no other reason than that their religion or their version of Christianity is different than yours. Now doesn't that sound like fun?
Do you like killing Gods?
We know Klingons killed their Gods and we Christians also killed our God and we feel really bad about it. As a Christian you'll be encouraged to rexperience killing God frequently as well as fantasize about drinking his blood and eating his flesh.
Do you like forcing people to obey you?
As Christians we believe that it is our mission to force the entire universe to worship as we do and it is our duty to force, bribe or trick them into doing so! And so we have launched a mission to convert the entire universe to Christianity. It's a big job but we have a lot of pamphlets and sooner or later you will join us too.
Kahless The Unforgettable is in many ways an obvious representation of Christ in the Klingon Empire. Sometime around the 9th century, Earth reckoning, he defeated his brother Morath, united all of the great houses of Quo'nos, and founded the first Empire. On his death, he announced that he would return to rule once again.
This parallel with the story of Jesus Christ goes further. Kahless was low-born, as Christ was born to Mary and Joseph. He awaited the fallen warriors in Sto-Vo-Kor and his Second Coming was prophecized to be the beginning of a golden age for Klingons. In the original script for When It Rains, a seventh-season episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Kahless was said to have once stood in front of an army, and to have cut his hand. He then commanded them 'Do This In Memory Of Me,' though this line was probably cut for being a little too on the nose.
Although King Arthur and Viking legends also served as inspirations for the Klingon Messiah, the allusions to the story of Christ are too obvious to avoid. Star Trek: Discovery added to this, with the Crusade that T'Kuvma incites against the Federation, claiming to be Kahless reborn. This leads the Empire and the Federation into a vicious war that lasts for almost a year.
Kahless was condemned to die by a tyrant Molor, who was angered that Kahless had incited the people against him. Khlaess was put to death and gave his word to his followers that he would someday return from Sto-Vo-Kor/Heaven.
"Open your heart to Kahless, ask him your questions, let him speak to you with your mind unclouded by doubt or hesitation. Only then can you find what you are looking for."
>Can he be saved by the Son of Man?
Yes.
>What about commander data?
Yes.
I won't elaborate because you didn't ask me to.
Please elaborate. Commander data specifically, the other guy has covered klingons.
As Picard explained the "The Measure of a Man" humans are merely biological machines. The difference between ourselves and Data from a scientific point of view is arbitrary. There is such thing as a "soul" which can be defined in scientific terms. Therefore, using a scientific definition to determine Data not having a soul is not logical. If we can't do it for ourselves we can't use it as a test against Data.
This means we must look at other measures that are not quantifiable such as the ability to still believe in things that are not within our current understanding of science, or even go against it. This is known as Faith. Data has demonstrated the ability to have faith. He has demonstrated the ability to believe there is "more" than just what is. Data himself believes that he may have a soul, and we have no real argument to tell him he is wrong.
>The difference between ourselves and Data from a scientific point of view is arbitrary. There is such thing as a "soul" which can be defined in scientific terms.
Does data even feel qualia? He seems purely imitative.
>Picard explained the "The Measure of a Man" humans are merely biological machines.
He was wrong.
Picard *SPOILER ALERT* was assimilated by the Borg and was saved. *SPOILER ALERT*
>difference between ourselves and Data from a scientific point of view is arbitrary
this is not true because Data is not a lifeform
>using a scientific definition to determine Data not having a soul is not logical
this is correct, because Data despite being artificial has a soul and sentience
>this is not true because Data is not a lifeform
Being a lifeform is not a requirement for having or not having a soul. Dogs are life forms but do not have souls according to the Christian religion.
Yes they do, all animals have souls and spirits according to the Bible, this is a Christian/Muslim thread, shoo shoo athishit.
>all animals have souls and spirits according to the Bible
I don't know what kind of pussy-ass liberal church you go to but in the real Christian religion only humans have souls. Beasts don't go to heaven or hell. They just die and that's it.
Eternal life has nothing to do with having a soul or not. You should know this and can look it up for yourself that animals have souls according to the OT, not going to spoonfeed you scripture 101 which you should already know.
lmao did your dyke pastor really tell you that?
Animals have nephesh, Genesis 1:20. You haven't read the bible.
*SPOILER ALERT*
Not that anon, but Commander Data gave his life for his friends in Nemesis.
Jesus said there is no higher form of love than that.
*SPOILER ALERT*
>Commander Data gave his life for his friends in Nemesis.
Programming.
No, he was programmed to choose.
Just like Lore, IIRC.
>he was programmed to choose
Ohhh that makes sense, and it's more thematic.
Data is programmed in a way that goes far beyond anything his creators could ever understand. He receives external stimuli and adapts and learns from it. He is not just a set of programming instructions.
Additionally, one can make the argument that humans are simply programmed by their DNA and biological impulses.
Additional to all of that: the way Data's positronic brain works is not fully understood by TNG scientists, not even by his father. Because no one in TNG has *all* of the answers about the workings of the universe. Nobody can explain everything, not even Q.
So in the context of TNG to claim Data can't have a soul because he's a synth is very short-sighted.
You can't reduce everything Data does down to the nature of his positronic brain.
Even if you could understand how it works, it wouldn't be sufficient alone to explain Data's character. There are other factors.
Does commander Data being programmed by someone with the Sin of Adam, theologically speaking, impart the original sin onto him and make him eligible for salvation?
Otherwise its kind of hard to see how he would be "saved". He has no real covenant status.
There is no sin of Adam. Dead doctrine and poor marketing scam.
Hmm?
Data didn't need to be programmed with original sin to inherit it. He was made in the image of Adam, and was created into a fallen world already subject to original sin.
There's no problem there.
I thought it was passed through the blood/at birth? Does a chair made by a carpenter have original sin? Or a statue made in the image of a man?
>passed through the blood/at birth
Did Adam get his soul from blood, or from the breath of God?
>Does a chair made by a carpenter have original sin? Or a statue made in the image of a man?
Is Data a mere statue? Or does he exercise his own will, and move about autonomously?
Is he willing to sacrifice himself?
Yes.
Data is just a child. One conceived through means we would consider unusual but a child nonetheless.
Would a clone of a human being have a soul?
How about a cyborg with only a brain remaining in a synthetic body?
What about a Human-Klingon hybrid?
What about a Human-Chimpanzee hybrid?
>What about a Human-Klingon hybrid?
Now there's an interesting one. I wonder what a theologian would say about a GMOed human as well.