have any anons read any of these four/six classics (if we're counting 金瓶梅 and 儒家外林)?
how long did it take? any recommendations on what to start with?
I'd probably read a translation as they are beyond my Chinese
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I was just glancing at Rot3K yesterday, I love the combination of history and supernatural/folklore elements.
I want to read Red Chamber (full), Three Kingdoms (full), and Monkey King (abridged). Not interested in the other one.
I have started with Monkey King btw
Outlaws of the Marsh
Liu singles out Water Margin as the closest thing to a genuine Chinese epic in terms of the process of its formation, it sounds very interesting imo.
3k mogs it imho
In terms of the overall dramatic arc I'm sure you're right, I think Water Margin's qualities are considered to be more on the side of variety, in the sense that it's a more authentic popular narrative dealing with subject matter that higher culture wouldn't touch. Basically it's an older semi-historical text that preserves a rare degree of color and realness, that alone is enough to get my interest.
Outlaws is the best though.
Red Chamber is a real snooze fest, totally undeserving of its reputation.
Abridged is definitely the way to go with Journey to the West, you don’t need to wade through 500+ pages of shitty poems that describe the action you just read in even more simplistic language.
Another tip for Journey; don’t read it all at once, finish an arc then put it away for a month or two.
>Outlaws is the best though.
have you read 3K?
nta, but I did have more fun reading Marshes of Mount Liang/Outlaws of the Marsh compared to RotTK
Guess I'm a contrarian, then.
Hardly, most people don't even know about Outlaws of the Marsh.
what version did you read btw?
Marshes of Mount Liang by John and Alex Dent-Young
Planning on reading three kingdoms and journey to the west this summer. 4000 pages coming in hot.
Journey to the West: Anthony C. Yu
Three Kingdoms: Moss Roberts
The Plum in the Golden Vase: David Tod Roy
The Story of the Stone: David Hawkes and John MinfordV
the full version of journey to the west is not worth reading imho
reviews for the plum in the golden vase
lmfao
That's lacist!
The value of the "inch" also varied by time and place in the West. Just add a footnote to the effect that a Chinese inch is equal to about 1.2 or 1.3 English inches.
I read both Red Chambers and Monkey (abridged).
Any reason why the chapters end with a "To see what what happens next, find out on the next chapter!"? Was that part of the originals or for the translation?
>Was that part of the originals or for the translation?
It's the standard chapter ending. It's so you could tell the book wasn't over if you were getting it in pieces or it got damaged. It's like
>Tune in next week to find out!
>儒家外林
>The Scholars describes and often satirizes academic scholars. The first and last chapters portray recluses, but most of the loosely connected plotlines that form the bulk of the novel are didactic stories, on the one hand holding up exemplary Confucian behavior, but on the other ridiculing over-ambitious scholars and the imperial examination system.
Huh, that sounds pretty interesting. Might read.
It's typically not considered part of the four main classics (the plum in the golden jar is also not, due to its sexual content)
I'm sure you can guess why a critique of the imperial system would be disliked
>entire ethos can be summed up as "know your role"
>thinks it can stand up to the West
Lol
As always some arrogant /misc/tard with childish opinions infects the thread
>arrogant
>childish opinions
Go back to sperging 3000 years of history nonsense and thinking emotional outbursts make you seem passionate instead of pathetic.
>mass market books devoted to an emerging service economy vs.
Pic-related. Lol.
try the english language east asian culture chan
The West really can't compete in that genre.
>thinks it can stand up to the West
Where in the original OP did it state that? The only one who mentioned the West in this thread is you. lol
>great examples of the impotent frustration of ricels
Thanks guys.
I was mostly just amused by the way your phrasing illuminated the fact that skill in IQfy's favorite pastime ("summing up", aka inventing ego-saving reasons not to read) is perfectly inversely proportionate to the level of knowledge one actually possesses in a given subject area.
The Chinese can be some pretty cool guys. If you can't help but seethe at them, that's on you.
>The Chinese can be some pretty cool guys.
Nice try but your ESL is showing, Chang.
seethe harder, /misc/chud.
>S-S-SEETHE
>[multi-replies]
>[twice]
Lol
>every user is le same
meds
>can be summed up as
Yes, like most things it's very easily summed up provided you know little to nothing about it.
Will I enjoy Water Margin if I love the Icelandic sagas?
>Icelandic sagas
I've been meaning to read the Icelandic sagas. What English translation do you suggest?
Thriving off anger and arguments is never good, but this may be your way of coping with whatever hardships you face irl. Go ahead brother, let it all out. I won't reprimand you, but I also won't waste my time arguing with someone who clearly wants attention. Have a (You) 🙂 and have a good day.
>excellent example of ricel impotent rage sperg
Thanks again.
Actually true
kek. Teenage girl levels of attention-seeking.
>off-topic starter
>no argument
>will reply to every post in the hope of more (You)s
>bu-but I'm le troll
picrel
forgot pic
>another multi-reply
Lol.
>tl;dr
Illustrative examples have already been graciously provided. Thanks though.
The penguin editions are generally seen as having the best translations
I recommend you get the Sagas of the Icelanders edition by Penguin but the other major volumes are Njals saga and Grettirs saga, both published by Penguin
>儒家外林
You mean 儒林外史?
Monkey king is basically a shonen manga with buddhism.
Ro3K is a historical epic almost all chinese schoolboys would have read at least a chapter or two.
Water Margin and Red Chamber are both highly influential to later chinese literary development. These alongside golden plum are the real deal here. Just keep in mind that the last 40 chapters of Red Chamber are likely forgeries written by someone else, so if you believe this, then the novel has no conclusion at all.
>Monkey king is basically a shonen manga with buddhism.
That's because manga makers ripped it off. Anachronistic criticism.
What makes you think I'm criticizing it? Do you secretly look down on manga?
It's a common criticism against fiction on this website. "This is just a shōnen". Apologies if that wasn't your intention.
啊,确实。我写错了,谢谢我纠正。
Why were there only four/six classic novels in the entire Chinese pre-modern history? If they came up with novel genre once, why not produce novels in quantity, especially given that pre-modern China had always had enough literate people (le legendary chinese bureaucrats). Why are there such gigantic gaps between those 4/6 classics works of fiction over the course of the 3000 years of Chinese history? Shouldn't they have had much more writers and novels or at least some lists with currently non-extant works (like the ones we have about Greek and Roman literature)?
I think it’s better to ask Japan that question
I have almost no clue, but there is a shit ton of poetry. My guess is that prose wasn't really that popular.
The Communist Chinese Party purged and rewrote much of their history.
"Ancient Chinese" literature in its current form is a product of the 1960's and little earlier.
You're stupid.
Chinese literature was preserved in other countries and in old manuscripts. Mass published Chinese literature match those.
It's just a Chinese naming/grouping convention originating from the Five Classics of Confucianism. They aren't literally the only novels that were written lmao
Novels are a relatively recent product in China. In traditional Chinese society, scriptural classics and poetry were relatively valued, while novels were regarded as lower-level works. Many of them were not rediscovered and appropriated until modern times.
And despite their being a lesser tradition in China (literally 小說, "petty words"), there are still extensive histories like Lu Xun's.
There were lots of novels, these are just like, the canonical best of the best.
The Story of the Stone is written in vernacular Chinese.
They all are, that's why they're considered novels and aren't included in classical Chinese fiction
The name is a bit of a misnomer
Nope, the other ones are written in classical chinese.
No they aren't? They're written in a literary register of Mandarin with considerable borrowings from CC, sure, but it's recognizably a different language than e.g. Confucius, with a bunch of words like 的, 這, copular 是...
3K is both vernacular and classical
Realistically any writing in modern "vernacular" Chinese incorporates classical elements
The difference is that it uses vernacular rather than pure classical
No more of a misnomer than calling Shakespeare a literary "classic" when he's not actually from the "Classical" era
How the frick is Shakespeare not classic?
I'm just talking about how the term is used - China and the West both have a term that can be used to refer to a specific period/culture or to a broader class of works.
Because he's not Greco-Roman, homosexual.
Pseuds are pedantic, anon.
On the contrary I was trying to point out the other anon's pedantry by demonstrating how our own way of talking about classics is similarly imprecise but still works well enough. I don't know why it was necessary to bring up the question of Classical vs. vernacular Chinese in this thread in the first place honestly, I'm assuming this gay
just wanted to flex without actually contributing anything.
He explains it there, moron. Can't you read? Holy shit.
Another moron
>moron sad we're unimpressed he resorted to pedantry in order to quibble over a term that has multiple meanings
Awwww.
>On the contrary [tl;dr]
Pseud confirmed.
>moron sad we're unimpressed he resorted to pedantry in order to quibble over a term that has multiple meanings
He explains it there, moron. This isn't muh pedantry. kys
>I'M NOT BEING PEDANTIC!
You're literally quibbling over the difference between a classic and classics.
>tl;dr
>oops I jumped to a conclusion because I'm too lazy to follow three-sentence-long discussion
>gotta maintain frame on IQfy, can't show weakness
>guess I'll just have to double down on the mistake and pretend I'm still confused
Very funny type of interaction, this site never disappoints.
Not him but Cao Xueqin is the basis of modern Chinese. Dream of the Red Chamber founds an entire discipline, kind of like how Caxton's Chaucer starts Chancery English.
no it isnt stupid. chinese as used by the professional middle class is the basis of modern chinese.