What would be a just course of action, If you knew that a serial killer was about to rape and murder a potential victim, and you had the means to stop that serial killer by getting them arrested and saving the potential victim, would you do it and save that victim, or would you "respect the free will" of that serial killer and let him brutalize the victim?
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No, and this is a really stupid 'gotcha' situation. It's perfectly acceptable to kill the guy to save a life, because in his attempt to kill others for his own benefit he's shown that he has no respect for the gift that God had bestowed on everyone. It's not difficult.
So why doesn't God himself intervene and kill the serial killer? We both agree that that would be the right thing to do, and God in his omnipotence has the means to do it, so why doesn't he? God would have a 100% rate of victims saved, while human police, being human, would fail to save some of the victims.
Not an argument
>Why doesn't God do X
He just doesn't want to, simple as. He didn't put us on Earth just to give us a life of perfection and luxury, that's what Heaven is. Everyone in this scenario has the means to stop the killer. You have the means to stop him, the victim has the means to some degree in the heat of the moment or by generally preparing for such a thing, and the killer by realizing that this act would be a blasphemy to God and that there's better ways to live. God is God, not your babysitter.
>He just doesn't want to
Why doesn't God want to? Isn't he benevolent?
>Everyone in this scenario has the means to stop the killer
>You have the means to stop him, the victim has the means to some degree in the heat of the moment
In the specific scenario I made up. In the real world, serial killers have escaped justice for decades and continued to brutalize their victims while evading the police. Humans do not have the means to stop all serial killers, God, being benevolent, does have that means.
>God is God, not your babysitter.
Isn't God our father? Doesn't God love us? What loving parent would choose not to protect their child?
Answer me this, you say that God doesn't want to save the victims of serial killers, but in your earlier post you said that you do want to save the victims. Why do you want ro save them, but God doesn't? Isn't God the source of the goodness and justice that you are exhibitibf by choosing to save the victim?
>this shit again
If you can't respond to me with an argument then stop wasting mine and your time and stop posting in this thread.
I'm just saying your point gets made all the time and gets answered all the time and all the times it happens no one changes their minds on anything, it's like i'm living on a loop
His benevolence is him granting you your immortal soul, the chance to experience life, and then if you weren't a total douche and actually believed in him then you are granted eternal paradise in Heaven. All pretty simple and told from day 1. Why would I want to save some one if I could? Simply because I could. You try to rationalize the actions and motives of an entity you can NEVER compare to. Your arrogance will leave you trapped in a cycle where you fool yourself into thinking you've solved some great riddle, when instead you'll live an empty life trying to repeat this over and over again. I'll go ahead and dumb it down really easy for you though.
>God makes life
>God tells you the rules to live by to weed out shitty people and cool people
>God says "alright, good luck!" and ships you out via your mother's cooter.
>Eventually die.
>You're judged if you were good enough or not.
Benevolence doesn't mean "good some of the time", it means the source of goodness itself. God should not tolerate evil at all. God should seek to carry out the good course of action at all times, but he doesn't. Do you have an explanation for why he doesn't, other than that he simply doesn't want to? WHY doesn't he want to?
I admit, my argument is brought up a lot, but it's never addressed. WHY does God allow bad things to happen?
What could possibly be the greater good in allowing serial killers to rape and murder?
I don't understand your respone.
>free will is a spook
Are you a Christian? Christians are supposed to believe in free will.
Are you saying that lettint serial killers go is an objectively good course of action?
>Are you saying that lettint serial killers go is an objectively good course of action?
>Are you saying that God wants serial killers to commit evil?
moron. I'm saying you cannot know what's truly good and bad, because only the Almighty can. You can barely comprehend written sentences, what makes you think you can reach God's level of morality? Fricking self-important moron.
>I'm saying you cannot know what's truly good and bad
Do you believe that human morality is subjective?
>only the Almighty can
Did God will serial killers to murder their victims? Please answer this question.
>God permits murder and sin generally as one device to bring about his ultimate glory
How does permitting murder glorify God?
>How does permitting murder glorify God?
Chiefly, through 1) the just condemnation of the murderer on the last day or 2) the greater weight of grace upon the justification of the murderer. As to if and how God may choose to use a sin in the course of time outside of those two categories, I cannot say until it happens. See Gen 50:20, Job.
Do you believe it's fair that God permits the suffering of the victim just so he can glorify himself when he punishes the serial killer? I'm not going to namegay anymore.
>God lets "bad" things happen so that greater good can result from its counter-effects
Are you claiming that the existence of serial killers somehow makes the world a better place?
>by its contrast with the bad thing show just how much superior good is
Why can't God shows us the superiority of the good without permitting the suffering of victims. How is it fair that God involves the victims in his elaborate presentation without their consent?
> If there were no conflict in this life, we would never know the glory of the afterlife in its superiority to the perverse material world of sin.
Why is it necessary for us to know the superiority of the afterlife in comparison to the material world? Why does God punish sinners if they are ultimatepy acting in accordance with his will by making the material world a bad place that God himselt WANTS and DESIGNED it to be?
Not the guy you quoted, but this isn't really an argument if all you do is keep replying with more and more questions, lol.
I don't claim to be right, or that my views are superior. I am simply curious and want to know more about the other person's views.
What part of 'you and your monkey brain are nothing compared to TETRAGRAMMATON' do you not get? You cannot "psychoanalyze" nor "rationalize" Him thinking yourself Sigmund Freud, because you're literally nothing in comparison. This isn't your discordtard buttbuddy or your boyfriend, nor your favorite e-celeb you're dealing with. We're talking about the CREATOR OF EVERYTHING. HOW ARE YOU SO DENSE.
Do you want me to give up and not even try to understand God?
>Do you believe it's fair
You presume the innocence of the victim and I reject that. If it is fairness that you want, then you will also be destroyed along with the murderer because that is the just penalty for your cosmic treason against your creator. It is only grace, not fairness, that spares us every day that we live on this earth and avoid suffering.
>just so he can glorify himself
So highly you value the sanctity of the human but so lowly the glory of God. The glory of God is the chief purpose of all creation.
>You presume the innocence of the victim and I reject that.
What did the victim do to desrve being raped and murdered?
>your cosmic treason against your creator
Why have I committed treason just because I want fairness?
>The glory of God is the chief purpose of all creation.
Why does God care about being glorified? How does God benefit from being glorified?
You don't know what sin is and you don't know how holy God is, and that's the problem. The penalty for sin is death. You have sinned, I have sinned, the murderer has sinned, and the victim has also sinned. God created the universe and your sin is spitting in his face by rejecting his holy nature or 'will of disposition'. You don't want fairness; fairness means you die, and all of creation will celebrate your just condemnation.
Please answer my questions here
I guess you can't read my post unless I green text everything that you type
>What did the victim do to desrve being raped and murdered?
sin
>Why have I committed treason just because I want fairness?
sin is cosmic treason
>Why does God care about being glorified? How does God benefit from being glorified?
I don't know why he cares, just that he does.
understand the relationship between God and man
Isaiah 6
>3 And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of armies. The whole earth is full of His glory.”
>4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
>5 Then I said, “Woe to me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of armies.”
>sin
What sin specifically is deserving of being raped and murdered?
>I don't know why he cares
Why do you not care about the motives of your God?
>What sin specifically is deserving of being raped and murdered?
every sin is deserving of much, much worse. why try the shock value approach here of all places?
>Why do you not care about the motives of your God?
I know his motives are good, they are definitionally so. I don't claim to know the reasoning of God as to why he endeavored to create the universe and glorify himself through his creation
>What did the victim do to desrve being raped and murdered?
Because that person was full of sin and selfish malice from the moment he was born. There is no such thing as a post-Lapsarian innocent.
>Because that person was full of sin and selfish malice from the moment he was born
Then that is the fault of the creator, God, not the newly-born child.
>every sin is deserving of much, much worse
Why?
>I know his motives are good, they are definitionally so
If God decides to slaughter 1,000 children, would that action be good?
>So yeah, stop him.
God also, has the power to stop the serial killer, why doesn't God stop him?
>Then that is the fault of the creator, God, not the newly-born child.
Rom 9
>19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
>20 On the contrary, who are you, [p]you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
>21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object [q]for honorable use, and another [r]for common use?
>22 [s]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
>Why?
because God says so. You ask for Christian responses and then pretend not to know the most basic Christian positions?
Gen 2
>17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [o]eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Rom 1
>32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.
>If God decides to slaughter 1,000 children, would that action be good?
Yes.
>God also, has the power to stop the serial killer, why doesn't God stop him?
Your parents have the power to throw you into a cage and spoon feed you for the rest of your life, yet they don't do it. Guess they don't love you
>Then that is the fault of the creator, God, not the newly-born child.
No it isn't, man freely chose to sin. God is not to blame for man's willful disobedience to him.
>man freely chose to sin. God is not to blame for man's willful disobedience to him.
Where did our nature come from? Who created us? It was God. If I created a robot from scartch that has a tendency to stack boxes, I am responsible for that robot having that nature.
You post is incoherent. Trapping me is the opposite of love.
>Isn't God our father? Doesn't God love us? What loving parent would choose not to protect their child?
Please acquaint yourself with the greater goods theodicy. A world without evil is a world without consequence
>We both agree that that would be the right thing to do
You don't know if He does, however. He's the Almighty, who's all-knowing. You, a simple human, a mere primate, cannot ever hope nor aspire to comprehend the least of His motives.
>You don't know if He doe
Isn't God benevolent? If he is, then there is only one clear choice for God to take in this matter.
>benevolent
Not according to your subjective, primate-brained morals, no.
I'll add, preemptively, that being truly benevolent evidently goes far beyond the simplistic, mindless notion of "being always good". In case you cannot read Hebrew, understand that everything that happens is by His will, because He knows what should happen, not you. Here's the English verse:
>Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.
>everything that happens is by His will,
Are you saying that God wants serial killers to commit evil?
>So why doesn't God himself intervene and kill the serial killer?
Well, he's trying to get you with all the covid and other shenanigans, so wait until he does, mr pedo enabler.
>gotcha, theists!
>would you do it and save that victim,
of course, as I am commanded to love my neighbor especially if the option exists to utilize the civil governing authority rather than vigilantism
>"respect the free will" of that serial killer
free will is a spook
3/10, your image could farm more replies if you posted a prompt about trinitarianism or iconoclasm
Former
Why doesn't God also pick the former?
because God disagrees with Dirk by principle.
Why do you start these thread when you have no interest in an honest discussion? You pretend like you do, but you are a liar.
Fricking lol Are we reading the same thread? I've read every post and responded to every argument but no one responds back. See
Nothing but insults.
I thought OP was going to say something actually interesting like asking Christians if they would stop a killer if they had knowledge that doing so would result in the victim losing his faith in the future. Turns out he's just another witless oaf.
>1. The three meanings of the will of God:
>(a) Sovereign decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass whatsoever He decrees. This is hidden to us until it happens.
>(b) Preceptive will is God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the power but not the right to break.
>(c) Will of disposition describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals what is pleasing to Him.
>2. God's sovereign "permission" of human sin is not His moral approval.
Humans are commanded not to murder. God permits murder and sin generally as one device to bring about his ultimate glory. There is no problem of evil, also disguising it as if we are in the place of God only muddies the waters.
Is the killer respecting the free will of people? Why should I respect his?
Theodicy has already refuted the Epicurean position in Matthew 18:12-14 and Luke 15:3-7.
>3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying:
>4 What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it?
>5 And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing:
>6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost?
>7 I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.
God lets "bad" things happen so that greater good can result from its counter-effects, and by its contrast with the bad thing show just how much superior good is. Life is drama, and drama can't exist without conflict. If there were no conflict in this life, we would never know the glory of the afterlife in its superiority to the perverse material world of sin.
What that guy wants to do is sinful, while you have the power to stop him, so by choosing not to stop him you are enabling him, and enabling sin is by itself something sinful.
So yeah, stop him.
Ephesians 5:11
Romans 1:32