I feel like with Xorg it was possible to put basically anything together or generally just put together an ugly solution for anything, cuz the protocol was so big..
But with Wayland, only the most important pieces are exposed and it's hard to do anything like UI automation and screen reading and so on. It locks everything into being just simple rectangles that you click on (unlike with apps like Peek). What's your opinion on this?
I really miss programs like xdotool, autokey and setxkbmap
>inb4 ydotool
I want a drop in replacement for xdotool
Everything is so dependent on the compositor unlike Xorg where everything was a separate program that works with any wm/de. I really hope wayland is not the future.
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> I really hope wayland is not the future.
It'll be dropped in a few years for something shiny and new
X12
For me, it's arcan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgHMU7m9-I8
supports both x11 and wayland as well
>they gayest music known to man
Holy shit thanks anon, I've been looking for this for the longest time but I forgot the name. All I remember was the anarchy symbol
>Does anyone else feel that Wayland is taking away the hackability of Xorg?
No. Wayland is MIT licensed open source software.
In before
>But I don't want to hack the C codebase
Then you were never a real X11 hacker.
>I really miss programs like xdotool, autokey and setxkbmap
>I want a drop in replacement for xdotool
Then develop Wayland replacements. Make them actually secure. Don't just copy X where any app can mess with the global keymap or move all windows around whenever they please.
>Everything is so dependent on the compositor unlike Xorg where everything was a separate program that works with any wm/de.
No, it's exactly the same as X with a compositor. You can't combine random DEs with random compositors and expect it to work.
Wayland is X12.
You don't have to write the entirety of Xorg or implement everything. Common functionality is shared between compositors using shared libraries. X11 didn't do this, because X11 is so old that shared libraries didn't exist when it was invented.
That's misleading. It's true the code itself won't go away. Xorg is already dead though, it won't be getting any more real releases unless a miracle happens.
>You don't have to write the entirety of Xorg or implement everything. Common functionality is shared between compositors using shared libraries.
muh wlroots isn't helping much, you still have to implement a lot of shit that X did on its own.
https://tudorr.ro/blog/technical/2021/01/26/the-wayland-experience/
>You can't combine random DEs with random compositors and expect it to work.
I think picom/compton can work with basically any de/wm except gnome3
>Xorg is already dead though, it won't be getting any more real releases
It's not getting major releases because the code has been split into many subprojects years ago. The core project is still actively developed and updated while the rest that nobody uses is still present but not maintained much
>muh wlroots isn't helping much
There are other libraries besides wlroots. I'm not reading your blog. Just say what you want to say here.
>I think picom/compton can work with basically any de/wm
Picom is the most basic compositor that does barely anything. Add any actual features into your compositor and you'll see how impossible it is to guarantee that it's going to work on every DE. It's simply false to promote the idea that all X11 tools were able to work together without serious hacks, bugs and limitations.
>It's not getting major releases because the code has been split into many subprojects years ago.
No, it was still getting major releases of all the subprojects together. That won't happen anymore.
>The core project is still actively developed and updated
Yes, by XWayland developers to work on XWayland.
This dude did all the fundraising.
https://bill.harding.blog/2021/06/06/linux-touchpad-like-macbook-update-touchpad-gestures-land-to-qt-gimp-and-x-server/
It was only able to happen because the X server was just one part of a larger effort. The money covered other things that needed to be updated. There's no one else organizing any initiatives around other components of the desktop.
> pic on is the most basic that barely does anything
Yet it has more features than Wayland (e.g. blur).
Blur is completely a compositor feature.
Touchpad gestures were the only reason a new release happened.
> blur is a compositor feature
And even the “barebones” picom has it, while Wayland doesn’t.
>Picom is the most basic compositor that does barely anything.
It can do a lot if you enable the features when launching it
> I'm not reading your blog.
it's not my blog, i linked it because it shows the experiences of someone who actually did what you claim is easy and has come to a different conclusion
>it was still getting major releases of all the subprojects together. That won't happen anymore.
>X.Org no longer produces unified releases of the entire X Window System, but instead releases individual X.Org modules as needed - see the xorg-announce archives for details of those releases.
https://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2022-July/thread.html
>Yes, by XWayland developers to work on XWayland.
I see both a new Xorg and Xwayland release this month
https://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2022-July/003193.html
https://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2022-July/003194.html
>New release
more like security vulnerability fix.
What do you expect?
X11 is already fully featured.
>X11 is already fully featured.
Where is HDR?
Depth 30
DefaultDepth 30
Are you fricking moronic or something? Why talk about something you have no technical knowledge about?
https://www.quora.com/Is-10-bit-color-and-HDR-the-same-thing
is so dependent on the compositor unlike Xorg where everything was a separate program that works with any wm/de.
>No, it's exactly the same as X with a compositor. You can't combine random DEs with random compositors and expect it to work.
You missed the point he was trying to make. When he said compositor he means the shell, because on wayland those are the same things because they run in the same process. He means that when you target wayland, you dont really target wayland. You target gnome, kde, wlroots etc because wayland is so minimal that every shell adds many extensions on top to actually make wayland usable in the real world on a desktop computer. This is not the case with x11 where no matter what shell you run, you can write the same code. Under x11 the only extensions a shell makes is properties, not functionality. And this is not really because everybody uses xorg-server, it's a principle difference between x11 and wayland. There are alternatives to xorg-server, but they dont add their own protocols on top, but they may not implement the optional protocols.
X11 principle: Add many protocols but make the non core ones optional. This is a good design for desktops.
Wayland principle: Add few protocols and let shells implement their own protocols on top. This is good for embedded environments but not desktops.
>because on wayland those are the same things because they run in the same process.
This isn't true, they don't actually have to be. KDE runs the shell in another process.
>You target gnome, kde, wlroots etc because wayland is so minimal that every shell adds many extensions on top to actually make wayland usable in the real world on a desktop computer.
Every DE also does that on X11. How do I run my plasma widgets on XFCE without hacking it to pieces? How do I use my XFCE panel on GNOME without fricking it up? You can't because it's not actually the same code. All the actual useful parts of any DE are done in extensions or plugins or something specific to that DE because this is how they actually provide features. You don't understand how developing a DE actually works.
>X11 principle: Add many protocols but make the non core ones optional. This is a good design for desktops.
No, this is a horrible design for desktops that lead to incredibly bad fragmentation. It's a good design for you specifically to pretend like you're a developer by badly hacking a few desktops together and pretending it works because your terminals have blur.
What did you actually mean? All I see is incoherent rambling. X11 compositors also use libraries when it's convenient. This isn't anything specific to a "Wayland shill".
You make a post in good faith first. Just imagine what would happen if Xorg actually was dead. Once you've proven your brain can handle it, then I'll show you more.
>How do I run my plasma widgets on XFCE without hacking it to pieces
You run kdesktop.
>just m-make it
I just want a working desktop, dudemanguy.
wayland is x12
the future will be x13, written in rust for memory safety
systemd-display *written in rust
Well if you aren't feeling confident for making the switch, then just don't use Wayland.
I don't mind Wayland supplanting X, but for now I'm happy with the latter and will continue use it for foreseeable future.
I felt the same with GTK2/GTK3 too. Damn I really hatw GNOME.
Keep in mind that the Wayland devs are the same as the X devs. They want to avoid 30 years of unmaintainable code.
they will just repeat their mistakes and create x12
The main x11 devs that actually did everything are not the ones working with wayland. They moved onto other things after having worked with x11 for 15years+
> some of the Wayland devs are some of the X devs
> no, I won’t say which ones and what they a Italy did on X or how long they worked on it
Every time
>what they a Italy did on X
Dumb phoneposter.
Get with the times, gramps. And learn to understand from context.
The problem is the lack of a single implementation everyone can build upon. It's the same situation with XMPP, a light core protocol with plenty of extensions to bring in functionality but many different implementations that only support a different subset.
umm sweetie, wayland is a protocol. what implementation of wayland are you talking about ? please educate yourself before posting 😉
Wayland also has lots of potential but the compositor has to implement everything
It's fragmenting the Linux desktop, has issues like vsync, and xwayland sucks
This. I read a comment from the author of a wayland compositor and he said "writing a wayland compositor is like writing the entirety of xorg itself". Wayland is truly meant to be doomed.
I don't even have a compositor
>generally just put together an ugly solution for anything, cuz the protocol was so big.
Honestly it isn't much different with wayland, the issue with X is the legacy stuff that isn't really used by modern applications
While X isn't perfect by any means it's also not as bad as it was when Wayland was started. DRI3 fixed most of the performance issues
>FUD FUD FUD FUD
Cope. It does you no good to deny what's actually happening.
That release was somewhat of a miracle anyway. The only reason it happened was because someone crowdfunded it, and even then it took years. There are no more crowdfunding campaigns since then. Go and start a new fund now and maybe I'll take back everything I said.
I posted the source.
This post makes no sense. Wayland is a protocol, not a compositor.
> it’s a protocol
This old excuse again. Show me a compositor that implemented transparency blur using this protocol.
Again, even the most barebones ones on X have no problem implementing it.
>This old excuse again
Knowing what things actually are isn't an excuse. It's reality.
>Show me a compositor that implemented transparency blur using this protocol.
This sentence makes no sense. You can't implement blur using a protocol. You implement it in a compositor.
KWin has blur for years now, GNOME has an extension. https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/3193/blur-my-shell/
I don't know about any of the meme WMs. They can burn and die along with Xorg.
>It can do a lot if you enable the features when launching it
But nothing actually useful beyond more window effects. Compiz was a lot more useful because it also implemented a window manager. It was more powerful but you couldn't swap it with another WM. That's the trade you make.
>linked it because it shows the experiences of someone who actually did what you claim is easy
Who said it was easy? Writing a full featured X compositor is also not easy. It's just not as hard as you make it out to be.
>>X.Org no longer produces unified releases of the entire X Window System, but instead releases individual X.Org modules as needed
It's extremely unlikely the Xorg server module is going to get new major releases.
>I see both a new Xorg and Xwayland release this month
The Xorg release is a maintenance release by the dude funded to work on the touchpad gestures. He has to stretch the money this far. If you want to ensure X11's future, you should start paying him more.
It's completely true, nothing was made up. Read what the guy actually said. I understand that actually reading things isn't your strong suit.
That's the only feature that was funded. Apparently telling you how your own software works is now lies and FUD?
You don't have to reimplement anything. Use a library.
>But the codebase is old, which makes it too difficult to work with.
>Baseddev translator
>The codebase is written in C and I am not a real programmer.
That insult doesn't work. The wayland codebase is also in C.
soydev
He said all of it.
Look, you can keep denying this all you want. It won't mean anything until you show everyone this giant pool of X11 developers that you're implying exists, that were on vacation for the last 5-10 years but will suddenly step up to start fixing everything.
>Does anyone else feel that Wayland is taking away the hackability of Xorg?
what was the last thing you hacked on Xorg?
What are you even talking about? libxcb doesn't have any functionality. Xlib is still used in a lot of applications because it implements things that xcb doesn't.
>Woops, so that means you were WRONG. Fricking stupid. If you just looked it up real quick, you wouldn't make embarrassing mistakes like this.
You're still posting these pointless memes. Don't do that. Read the rules.
>VLC uses xcb directly as well.
Great, you listed one library and one application. Now go through the other thousands of libraries and applications and tell me what they use.
>It's about the functionality of libxcb which is actually enormous
Which functionality? You still haven't mentioned this.
>The argument isn't about a popularity contest you fricking disingenuous homosexual.
>and you would know this if you've used it for two seconds. But you're not actually a programmer so you don't know any of these things.
Please, stop memeing. I challenge you to do it for just one post. Avoid memeing and trolling. Make one post where all you do is post facts about libxcb.
More FUD. No DE has dropped X11, the only ones who've even started talking about dropping it are the foothomosexuals, which isn't surprising seeing as Gnome is mostly Redhat. X11 could become abandonware tomorrow and it'd still be perfectly usable for at least a decade. You set things up as better and worse, but it's not like people choose to avoid Wayland because they think X has a better logo,
>Do not instigate or participate in flamewars.
I hope it's not a work meeting, you'd be promptly fired from any real job for being unable to follow a simple 7 word rule.
>No DE has dropped X11
Wrong, every DE with a Wayland port has already dropped X11 as an active development target. The X11 support is only there in maintenance mode.
>which isn't surprising seeing as Gnome is mostly Redhat.
Not sure why you'd think that Red Hat being unwilling to pay their employees to support broken abandonware would be an indication that anyone else wants to. Red Hat is usually the one who keeps abandonware on life support the longest. Once they leave, you can be sure the ship has sunk for real.
>X11 could become abandonware tomorrow
X11 has already been abandonware for several years. It hasn't been usable in over a decade.
>You set things up as better and worse, but it's not like people choose to avoid Wayland because they think X has a better logo,
It's universally better for the 10 or so things that those DEs care about. All the other things are unimportant. It's competing for groups of less than 100 users. That's fractions of a percent of marketshare, it's not worth the developer time for them to even take a look at one X bug.
you will never be a software engineer
>come back
>half the thread is deleted
holy shit
>I really miss programs like xdotool, autokey and setxkbmap
>>inb4 ydotool
>I want a drop in replacement for xdotool
Sounds more like a 'you' problem. You didn't need to write an essay to justify your personal issue.
>bruce the troony
you need to go back
No. Seethe harder.
im still running dwm, why should i switch?
Show me multimonitor VRR working on xorg real quick