Everything about proto-Indo-European language and religion seems to be based entirely on "reconstructions". So I have a question. What are some examples of widely believed "reconstructions" in other parts of history later being proven dead wrong?
Everything about proto-Indo-European language and religion seems to be based entirely on "reconstructions". So I have a question.
Anyone not believing in PIE should spend an hour studying Latin and an hour studying Sanskrit.
If PIE is real, then Sanskrit should have more in common with Persian than Latin
And it does (with Old Persian), but the problem is that Old Persian texts are rare compared to the mountains of books in Sanskrit and Latin.
Outstanding posts
Avestan is basically mutually intelligible with Sanskrit
Avestan isn't Persian... A dialect of Avestan birthed Persian.
The ironic thing is that the city Budapest seems to have the same etymology as the word Buddha.
Budapest are 2 city names combined. Buda and Pest. Originally Slavic, so it makes sense. Buda is called Budin by surrounding Slavs, like Slovaks, who lived there previously.
Sanskrit has more in common with Old Persian than Latin, I don't know what you mean
You seem to be obsessed with the idea that indoeuropean languages aren't a thing, which is as stupid as being obsessed with the idea that lions and tigers arent felines.
Only crackpots and Hindutva types deny the existence of a PIE language.
The oldest strata of Persian languages do have much more in common with Sanskrit than Latin.
Technically I think Hindutvavadis don't deny Proto-Indo-European, they just think it originated in India.
I'm not even sure how many of those tards still exist. Genetics has BTFOd them. They used to show up at BrownPundits comment-sections to argue with Razib and, oh boy. Don't do that.
>genetics
There's still no actual solid evidence that R1a carried the "Indo-European languages". Also R1a in India predates all your models by thousands of years.
just stop Rajeet, it's that embarrassing
I never said that R1a carried the Indo-European languages. Lern 2 reed.
R1a is correlated with Sintasha Culture and Indo-Iranian, also Balto-Slavic I think. R1b carried other Indo-European languages (also Basque and Etruscan interestingly). Tocharian I don't know.
Since R1a is old, there's plenty of time for the odd nomad to wander into India. R1a is never dominant in Indus Valley until Late Bronze.
What we do know is a massive flux of steppe R1a coinciding with Indic languages appearing and dispersing into Late Bronze Age north India.
Some of them think PIE is identical to Vedic Sanskrit. They've yet to give any explanation of how other branches systematically retain distinctions that Sanskrit merges.
>Only crackpots and Hindutva types deny the existence of a PIE language.
So do Armenians in denial.
Armenians? But why?
Who knows? Nationalism is weird.
It does, Avestan and Sanskrit are mutually intelligible.
Not in the slightest. Aphrodite is entirely IE in origin, she's just your bog standard reflexing of the Dawn Goddess.
Not just the laryngeals, but the stuff about genders as well. tl;dr why are dogs feminine in language A but masculine in language B? Because PIE had two genders, animate and inanimate. Certain animate nouns became masculine and others became feminine, and inanimate nouns became neuter. However, the masculinization and feminization did not happen equally, hence why there is disagreement over which genders things are. This process is reflected in the Anatolian languages as some have an animate-inanimate gender system, whereas others have m/f/n.
Eos was the Greek goddess of the dawn (and equivalent to other Indo-European dawn goddesses). Aphrodite was the goddess of love and, in some cults, also war.
The Dawn Goddess splitting in half into a meteorological deity and a more "human-focused" deity is a really common occurrence in Indo-European religions, anon. We see the same thing in Germanic religion with Easter and Frigga/Freyja.
brvh
>If no one explained it to me I would intuitively know that Sanskrit and Latin are in the same language family just by reading a few sentences!!!
You would yeah that's the point
b***h you can't even tell russian and english are relatives let alone some language 5000 miles away that branched off 4000 years ago
>Mother, Mater
>Brother, Bratrŭ
>Sister, Sestra
>Daughter, Dŭšter
>Son, Synŭ
>Neve, Netii
>Widow, Vŭdova
>Guest, Gostĭ
>Same, Samŭ
>One, Inŭ
>Two, Dŭva
>Three, Trĭje
>Nose, Nosŭ
>Brow, Bry
>Mouse, Myšĭ
>Wolf, Vlĭkŭ
>Goose, Gǫsǐ
>Milk, Mleko
>Salt, Solǐ
>Sow, Sějǫ
If you look at this set of basic vocabulary from English and OCS and tell me there is no way they were related at some point thousand years ago you are moronic.
>Giving basic words for trade and communication and saying they are cousing lunguanges.
This like going foward 1000 years saying the japanese and the americans have a conmon lunguange bcs the japs had used the words playstation and eclipse (on products in order to sell) and americans using the words onisan and otaku for mutual respect.
Trading basic words does not equal same origins anon.
are you trying to imply that modern english loaned those words from old church slavonic
Words this basic are rarely loaned.
You take the word playstation from English language because it is not something you have a word for in your own language and transliterating it would be confusing. Now find me a language that doesn't have a word for mother and needs to take it from another language. Especially if said languages without these words happen to be the biggest group of languages in the world spreading all around Eurasia.
oh my god man
are you functionally moronic?
You’re speaking a quasi-Germanic-Franco-Norman language that is virtually unrecognizable from its counterpart only a thousand years ago.
Try comparing a swadesh list, or the declension/conjugation tables.
That's literally what happened. Colonial administrators went to India and tried to read old Sanskrit texts. They immediately noticed all the similarities to Greek and Latin. Historian Indo-European linguistics was born.
Yeah this is old. I remember some educated Ottoman Turk during the early modern period pointed out many similiarities between German and Persian. This was before PIE was discovered obviously, and he didn't really elaborate much unto this.
>Evliya Çelebi
Celebi?
Pokemon are turk spies
pocket monsters, - their trousers are really, really big, with endless pockets.
Yep it's him, thanks.
anywhere to get a brief overview on classical Sanskrit? I studied Latin for a couple years and I’m really curious to see the similarities
There are a bunch of very comprehensive grammars written by British orientalists in the 19th century that you can find in pdf form with a quick google.
yeah it's not hard to get a passable self-education in old Sanskrit - and old Akkadian - from free PDFs from late-1800s/early-1900s grammars. Not much has changed in our understanding.
One annoying ANE language to learn used to be Hittite on account its first research is in German, which sucks if you aren't German. Although there are online tutorials nowadays for Anglos.
Akkadian is AA not IE you lapping historylet
Just the words “mother” and “no” or “not” are enough to convince most people.
Think about how many languages use a similar sound for the negative response
>No (English, Spanish)
>Na (Persian)
>Heт (Russian, other slavic languages similar)
>Nicht/Nein (German)
>Nakara (Sanskrit)
A lot of what we know about ancient languages, even written ones, is based on reconstructions. It's not like there were sound recording of people speaking Latin and Sanskrit.
No, but we do have explicit descriptions of pronunciation, as well as various other evidence.
have you seen what "classical latin" and "classical greek" sound like? if you believe people were actually talking like that lol just lol
I can give you a case of one being proven right: the PIE laryngeals. They were hypothesized based on vowel distributions in attested IE languages, and then Hittite texts were discovered with H-like sounds in those positions.
Yes, and based on the data I don't see how they could be anything but basically right, though of course we can't know all the fine articulatory and prosodic details. "It just seems so implausible" is not an argument.
Zoroastrianism is the closest we have to proto-Indo-European religion
Wasn't it deliberately formed/refounded by Zoroaster/Zarathustra? Wouldn't Hinduism be a better example since it's just the continuous tradition? Or Ancient Greek and Roman religion which are fairly well attested despite no longer being living.
*reformed/founded, frick
>Wouldn't Hinduism be a better example since it's just the continuous tradition?
No, Hinduism synthesizes the old Indo-European religion with various indigenous traditions, as well as more recent developments. For example, Shiva, who is one of the most important and popular Hindu deities, doesn't come from Indo-European religion at all; he originated in India.
homie, where's Vishnu?
Krishna and Rama are the most popular forms of Vishnu.
In the blockchain
Oh, also,
>Or Ancient Greek and Roman religion which are fairly well attested despite no longer being living.
I don't know as much about the Romans, but we know that many important figures in Greek mythology were taken from non-Indo-European sources; Aphrodite is just a hellenized form of Ishtar.
Zarathustra specifically hated the religion of the peasantry. He had no success converting people until he converted the king of...sogdia iirc. Hence, Zoroastrianism (and its derivative sects) was an elite religion; the people always believed in something more akin to mazdakism. Vedic hinduism may be closer, but modern hinduism has been through reforms and cultural double dipping too many times (example: Shankaracharya). Ironically, it may be turkics who share the most religion wise, seeing as their steppe tradition was preserved a little better and shared many elements with PIE.
No modern religion is a good look at what PIE religion looked like, like
said Indo-Aryans and every other IE branch mixed with local groups and merged beliefs, and even if they didn’t they would still evolve over thousands of years
What's the best way? Comparing them?
I'm not saying they had any particular skin tone. I'm saying they weren't 'white' and they also weren't NOT 'white' because the concept of 'white' didn't exist then.
Reconstructing them by looking through all the mythologies of the branches and seeing what reoccurring figures, myths and legends appear, that’s how we know about the sky father among others
>concept of 'white' didn't exist then
The concept of penguins and insulin didn't exist then either (at least to them), but penguins and insulin still existed.
What about Tengriism?
Just worship Skyfather and Earthmother simple as
It's not actually descended from PIE religion though, Tengriism is Altaic (in the sprachbund sense).
No its not you pooranian retarf
What would you say is? (NTA)
Nothing infortunately
Maybe paganism from europe
What makes it a better representative than, say, Vedic Hinduism?
It's hilarious how these morons dedicate their life to seethe at PIE, top fricking kek.
when being a contrarian homosexual is your 4chingz identity..
>being proven dead wrong?
what are they gonna do? dig up an ancient tape recorder from 3000 years ago?
Lol, cope harder.
Germans have no real history so they had to steal the Romans history but that only goes back so far. So they had to go to India and Iran to steal their history and pretend "that was actually us!!". Sad.
it's so obvious your opposition to it is out of pathetic, post-colonial ethnic revanchism and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with reality or your knowledge of the matter, you don't even attempt at hiding it
Nigel raped you and humiliated you just a couple centuries ago, so you absolutely cannot deal with the idea that it wasn't the first time it happened, it's that simple and obvious to anyone partaking to this sad spectacle
You just wanna steal other histories because you have none just like you stole all of India's wealth during colonialism. You're just a criminal robber
You just wanna desperately gatekeep crumbles of history by virtue of squatting in a piece of land because otherwise people would rightfully mistake you for walking fertilizer, both for smell, color and social utility.
So indians are wrong for not sucking white wiener. Indians are wrong for defending their history against fascist subhumans responsible for the holocaust? Frick you and frick the white race. I hope blacks frick you up and cum in your ass?
You think you're the good guys? You are worse than the lowest pigs
there's sucking white wiener and there's stopping believing you are special snowflakes who haven't been conquered and invaded like anyone else in history, shitting on nearly two centuries of scholarship simply because you are the living embodiment of slave resentment
cry online as much as you want as long as "the lowest pigs" allow you on their technology, you are not going to get Nigel's sticky cum out of your butthole anytime soon
Reminder this schizo is a mongol rapebaby that lives in Russia and he spends his entire life on IQfy and other sites like Twitter and Reddit to seethe at people who don't believe in the wewuz theory, this homosexual monitors every single thread on IQfy, if you don't believe me, mention the wewuz theory in a thread on a board for something random like wallpapers and he'll be there within 1 hour
Reminder you are a butthurt pajeet that denies existence of something with concrete evidence because of petty nationalism.
I'm pretty sure he is, may allah forgive for uttering this word, an Iranian
The Proto-Indo-Europeans were not white. They were also not NOT white. This is because the concept of whiteness did not exist then.
Oh, it did Pajeet. Do the earliest Rigvedas, composed by people who looked like modern Russians, not speak of golden-haired Indra's hatred for the dark skin of the Mleccha?
no, they were White, they were genetically and phenotypically the most similar to Modern North Euros.
But 'white' isn't an obvious natural category, it's socially constructed. For example, Irish and Italians didn't used to be "white" in America but now they are. And no two people can seem to agree on whether israelites are "white".
What a pile of postmodern bullshit. “White was not a concept sweetie!!!”
kys
people of primarily West Eurasian descent are an obvious and natural category.
>irish and italians didnt used to be White
this was never the case
the "irish-iberian" meme was made by an irish writing for Harper's Weekly, an irish newspaper.
>are israelites White
Jews are a mixed population, hence the disagreement.
They are not White, but have White admixture and thus can display White features, however they are nearly always identifiable as israeli.
The tribes that invaded India weren’t white. You can separate schizo nazi theories from historical facts. But having foreign nomadic invaders take over your country during a time of chaos and disarray isn’t something unique. It doesn’t mean they’re “superior” to you either any more than the Huns were “superior” to the Romans. It happened to basically everyone at some point. Britain got invaded and conquered by people from neighboring countries like four or five times and you don’t hear them seething about it.
Butthurt streetshitting poster. Stop spreading your fairytales and actually learn history ffs.
It's amazing to me that the idea of a large proto language that all of our languages developed into only came into being in the 19th century. Growing up learning french and then learning Russian was enough for me to inherently get a feeling that Latin and Proto-slavic must've had a recent common ancestor. And yes, I know about the many loanwords from the time of Peter the great, I'm not talking about that.
Before modern lingustic theory clerics believed that the proto-language must have been some form of hebraic the language before the the tower of babel collapsed. Interestingly Greek and Hebrew have the same semitic script influence. They coudn't have possibly the known the timeline of those migrations and changes in languages as archeology started in the 19th century.
I've actually heard some modern-day creationists claim the existence of multiple not-traceably-related language families as evidence for the Tower of Babel; basically the proto-languages would be the distinct languages that God split mankind into for building the tower. I believe there's also an Irish tradition according to which Goidel Glas, ancestor of the Gaels, traveled to the tower of Babel after work on it was stopped to hear the languages mankind had been divided into and created Gaelic out of the best bits of each; if this were true it would make him history's first conlanger.
PIE as a language is about as proven as it's possible to prove something like that. But I do remember this one autist on here who pulled together have a dozen vague references to horses being involved in rituals across eurasia, and tried to argue all of these had eveoled from one, Indo-European ritual. He taking Gerald of Wales talking about the Irish fricking and eating horses completely at face value, instead of the obvious invented slander it was.
Gaelic culture always struck me as quite "proto indo-european"
A society centred on the cow as the primary source of wealth and nutrition with lots of violence between communities that were organised as kinship groups
the indo european languages came from asia, everyone should remember that the steppe are in asia
I don't believe in this Indo uropean bullshit. English is nothing like Sanskrit. You wuz not kangz
That's the cool thing about facts, they remain true whether you believe in them or not. If the languages are not related, then explain the regular sound correspondences.
Sanskrit is similar to Serbian. But not similar to English, Spanish or German. Indo European more like Dindu Europoorean
There are regular sound correspondences between all the branches of IE. Look up Grimm's Law, for example.
>you wuz not kangz
>being too stupid to even understand the implications of the thing you are disputing
>it took atheists this long to figure out that the Tower of Babel was real all along
OH NONONO
How does this demonstrate Babel was real?
>language reconstruction
>comparative mythology
>dna sequencing and modern genetics
>steppe admixture
All of these fields point towards a proto Indo European existence. At this point, it's absolutely not just language reconstruction
Anyone lesss than 50% indo European is not white
So pretty much nobody.
Northern europeans have over 50% indo European admixl
No, it depends on model. If you add additional EHG or Balkan HG then their Yamnaya goes down. Also, Yamnaya were like 10% farmer already, so a hypothetical pre-farmer mixed PIE would be even less.
50% or more means you're white, anything else is cope