How significant was it?
Is it a meme that nordic features in modern Spaniards comes from Gothic ancestry?
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Gothic genetic impact in Iberia
How significant was it?
Is it a meme that nordic features in modern Spaniards comes from Gothic ancestry?
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Fair features in iberians probably came from the earliest indo-europeans to migrate there e.g. the bell beakers and to a lesser extent celtiberians. Goths left more of a political and cultural legacy than a genetic one.
If I’m not mistaken the highest estimate for goths in Iberia was 500k with an Iberian population of 8 million or so. So like what 6% of the population? And who knows of some of those Goths werent purely Scandinavian, they may have picked up some Eastern Europeans along the way. Most were settled in central Spanish pasture lands or in the administrative capital. They were separated from the native population for awhile but eventually they were integrated but idk to what extent.
There weren't many. Those that did migrate into Spain primarily settled in the central region of modern Spain near Madrid.
Damn, that image lines up nearly perfectly to this map of haplogroup I2a distribution.
I2 in the Balkans is from Slavs.
The goths were lurking around the balkans for a bit.
Partially. The I2a variant present in slavs is a result of an east germanic population playing a large role in slavic ethnogensis. I2 in the balkans is a result of both Ostrogothic migrations AND slavic migrations.
I doubt it. I2 shows up with Slavic ancestry. The Germanic like samples from the Balkans don't carry it.
It also doesn't show up in Wielbark or in any gothic samples we have so far. It shows with Slavic-like ancestry.
An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence.
I don't see how a purely slavic haplogroup could've wound up in central Spain otherwise, unless assimilated Slavs wound up a large portion of east germanic tribes, but at that point they should just be called east germanics.
Regardless, I2C10228 originated in proto-germanics and then migrated east. What do you call these eastbound germanics who later lived among the slavs before merging with them if not "east germanics"
Celts, not proto-Germanic. It's much more likely an Eastern Urnfield haplogroup than any Germanic one.
It's from Celts.
I wouldn't say its from people who ever considered themselves "celts."
The I2a1b split occurred inside of Doggerland when it still existed during the Mesolithic. They were proto-celt old europeans at the time. The ones who would become the proto-slavs migrated east towards Saxony, and the ones who would eventually become celtic britons are the ones who migrated westward towards England.
Plus, I2-C10228 has been found in Viking samples within Sweden as well as in a Viking sample found in the Kievan 'Rus. It may not currently be linked to any Gothic populations directly, but it is present within Iron age north germanics while there is a complete absence of it in the few Urnfield bodies that have been tested, although there is plenty of R1b. All I can find regarding I2a and the Urnfields is a single Celtiberian body carrying I2a1a which people assume must've come from the Urnfield. However, the slavic I2 variant is I2a1b. These two branched off from each other in the Paleolithic and are hardly related.
Of course I'm just theorizing as you are. Hopefully one day there will be enough data out there for us to paint a reliable picture of archaeogenetics. I hate making assumptions off of the haplogroups of 2 dead bodies and making an inference regarding the whole culture.
Everything you said is wrong.
Anon, I think you fail to understand the timescale of what you're talking about.
I2 is an incredibly old haplogroup that contains many subgroups that are so distantly related that they can hardly be correlated. The Slavic variant is one that was incredibly isolated for most of its history since the Mesolithic before it suddenly exploded after the slavic migrations. It cannot be correlated with the other I2 groups in good faith.
I'm not talking about I2.You have no idea what you're talking about. Slavic I2 wasn't isolated, but was largely irrelevant until it exploded with Slavs. This is what's called the founder effect.
>Slavic I2 wasn't isolated, but was largely irrelevant until it exploded with Slavs.
That's what I meant when I said it was "isolated." It has no closely related I2 variants. I wholly agree that it was irrelevant until the slavic explosion. That's what I'm trying to tell this other guy who is conflating incredibly distantly related I2 variants with the genetically isolated Slavic variant.
That's not true. I2-C10228 is older and broader from what most slavs have, which is I2-S17250. C10228 is the predecessor of this that encompasses a few smaller branches of what is generally considered the "slavic" branch. This indicates that the people who would become slavs share an ancestor with those Vikings in Sweden that lived 1000BC. The specific slavic subclade, S17250, came about around 0-400AD making it incredibly recent. So as you can see, those vikings had a common paternal neolithic ancestor with most Bosnians. This is how people deduce that its an east germanic group.
That's what makes S17250 so weird though. Its a massive distribution of a very recent haplogroup that previously wasn't widespread and was last pinpointed near the north sea.
>Vikings in Sweden that lived 1000BC
Yes, vikings from 1000 BC... And what are you even talking about? Which sample? There's no C10288 from Iron Age Scandinavia.
Except all those viking samples look like Slavs and were most likely Slavs.
no. whatever goths had to do with it, they definitely werent the original carriers.
i2 never left the carpathian basin. it bounced between the balkans, eastern alps, back to balkans, north-east to the eastern carpathians, then back to the balkans.
Many celts had light features.
Nonsensical model. The Germanics that arrived to Iberia did not resemble Iron Age Swedes. They were already mixed.
Not really.
I don't care about this meme shit. DNA is what's important.
Early Hallstatt did not resemble Nordics. So there's that.
So post germanic dna from spain.
They look like Central Europeans.
Post source.
no germanic influence in Spain :
>"It is important to point out that we are not detecting gene flow from Germanic peoples (Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths) into Spain even though it is known that they migrated into Iberia around 500 A.D. We believe such migration must have occurred, based on the historical record (and perhaps is biasing our admixture date to be too recent), but any accompanying gene flow must have occurred at a lower level than the much earlier flow we discuss"
>2012
lol
I've never seen a people that absolutely want to have german ancestry ...spaniards really act like third worlders
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
Nothing about this looks Germanic.
I-CTS4002
- IY44940
South Germany and South Poland
- I-FGC20479
British isles, but TMRCA 4200 ybp, so it's obviously way too old for Germanic. Maybe Beakers, maybe Celts.
- CTS10228:
ancient sample from Croatia - most likely a wrongly dated one as this guy look very Slavic genetically
I-Y81696
South Germany and France
And then I -Y3120
Belarus and Balkans.
Guy looks like a fricking Finnish monkey. Typical Iberian features are much better.