there is no comparison to modern economies. The IMF and other world economic leaders have even stated they have no idea what US debt means for the world economy nothing like it has ever existed.
why cant you people stay on /misc/
nobody wants you schizos posting here
2 years ago
Anonymous
The fact that you people can't handle a simple joke about israelites being highly involved in finance makes it funnier.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah, but you weren't joking. And you being Schrodinger's butthole and insecure on a website where you're the largest board is even funnier.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Denbts
?t=1919
2 years ago
Anonymous
seems like more of a symptom of a bigger problem like corruption or defeat in a war. from this video, debt is kind of like an energy drink for production that governments get addicted to until they completely wear themselves out, but the bigger question seems to be "why do we need the accelerated production in the first place?"
2 years ago
Anonymous
You wanna talk about the logical capital, profit motive and growth, son?
2 years ago
Anonymous
yes. idk what logical capital is but i want to know
The economy is all fake at this point and propped up by literally nothing. Fricking around with fiat currency will ultimately only end in disaster after disaster.
all currency is "fake"
money only exists as a means to roughly gestimate the labour value of any given object
the actual tumor thats killing western economies are that one of their largest industries is the fricking finacial "economy" which creates nothing of practical value and serves only to move already existing currency around, these transactions create nothing of value in the process while also taking up workers that could be best used else where
>the actual tumor thats killing western economies are that one of their largest industries is the fricking finacial "economy" which creates nothing of practical value and serves only to move already existing currency around, these transactions create nothing of value in the process while also taking up workers that could be best used else where
Great take, I agree >"Oops, we ran out of money to move, the velocity of exchange is slowing." >"Print more, then we can keep moving it around."
And so it was.
>how can the "world" be in debt?
That's a great question to have, and the answer is that the monetary system is not a zero-sum system. There isn't a limited quantity of currency shard among everyone within a closed system impervious to outside tampering.
They can adjust it however they want.
Upwards or downwards, or even sideways if it's what they want.
The only reason it works is because people believe it does.
As soon as they stop believing, it stops working.
Hence the israelite media empire. Just another spell caster holding up the illusion.
I meant to summarize by saying the world is in debt because that's what the israelites tell you is happening.
They've created an elaborate system from nothing to make you believe it.
>the actual tumor thats killing western economies are that one of their largest industries is the fricking finacial "economy" which creates nothing of practical value and serves only to move already existing currency around, these transactions create nothing of value in the process while also taking up workers that could be best used else where
Great take, I agree >"Oops, we ran out of money to move, the velocity of exchange is slowing." >"Print more, then we can keep moving it around."
And so it was.
>how can the "world" be in debt?
That's a great question to have, and the answer is that the monetary system is not a zero-sum system. There isn't a limited quantity of currency shard among everyone within a closed system impervious to outside tampering.
They can adjust it however they want.
Upwards or downwards, or even sideways if it's what they want.
The only reason it works is because people believe it does.
As soon as they stop believing, it stops working.
Hence the israelite media empire. Just another spell caster holding up the illusion.
brainlet take, the value of money, just like the value of anything else, is situational. So like merchants increase the value of production by moving goods where they are needed (which incentivizes production by raising prices), financiers increase the value of loaned funds by moving it to where it is needed (which allows for capital improvements to be made by incentivizing the loaning of funds).
You're correct, the money is owed to each other, or government's to their own citizens, or between individual companies, or between companies and financial institutions, etc. but I can tell by your question you're thinking like "Oh shit all that debt seems really bad, shouldn't it cancel out so no-one is really in debt kind of?"
I think the correct way to think about it, is that that figure shouldn't be perceived like "Oh this is the amount of credit card debt a struggling family has" or whatever, this is more like "what is the total amount of financing that's happening in the world," That's semantics, but it also gets to the root of what's really going on here.
The world has become a lot more financialized which means that it is cheap and easy and ubiquitous to use debt to get access to capital to do things right now rather than have to save up to spend cash. This is really important for countries/companies which want to finance productive activities . Remember that corporate bonds and government are a form of debt, and companies as common practice will take out $10M+ loans that they then repay in a few days, to keep purchasing / making payroll etc.
Also, that figure for derivatives is a little misleading , most of the time derivatives act just like an insurance contract on an activity or outcome (A farmer wants to buy fertilizer and is worried about the price going up can buy a future, and if the price goes down instead then he just has to pay the premium and won't exercise the option), and so often times derivatives just expire worthless or as [...] said cancel out.
The scary thing with derivatives is like 2008 when everyone is confident in a thing, so they sell swap contracts (insurance protecting the thing) for free money, then the market collapses, and everyone has to pay out, and many people can't, it can cause dominos of financial collapse. But that's distinct from just the sheer size of the paper value of the contracts.
Yeah, derivatives can be dangerous. Still, the chart is misleading and derivatives do fill an important role.
please explain how gold was not a fiat currency. Explain its intrinsic value during hte 1700s?
2 years ago
Anonymous
(You)
2 years ago
Anonymous
such a strong argument. For what every economist in the world who can count understands is a moronic idea. There is not a enough gold in the world to run any large economy. Its moronic, and gold only recently has any intrinsic value in electronics and then not much. Not even running a fractional reserve gold standard would work.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I'm not going to effort post for the benefit of an utter moron or troll; (You) get what (You) deserve
2 years ago
Anonymous
awww baby is mad his dumb idea is blindly accepted off /misc/. Sorry but people can atleast count here on IQfy
2 years ago
Anonymous
Thanks for proving my point, (You) homosexual.
2 years ago
Anonymous
ya you really showed me. All that jargon you used and data, plus charts. O wait you just immediately resorted to spurging out because you argument is based on feelings instead of reality.
2 years ago
Anonymous
(You)
2 years ago
Anonymous
>There is not a enough gold in the world to run any large economy.
what a moronic take even if there was one kilo of gold in the whole world it would work .Sure you would trade in nanograms but if would work.
2 years ago
Anonymous
bruh then its a "fiat" currency moron. So not trading nanograms of gold does not work.
How is inflation good for the economy? I think the housing, medical, and other prices are too high and need to crash. Maybe the US needs to burn some currency to get prices down.
>How is inflation good for the economy
It encourages investment and decreases the relative value of your debts. Among other things, it's been years since I was in Macroeconomics
>How is inflation good for the economy
It encourages investment and decreases the relative value of your debts. Among other things, it's been years since I was in Macroeconomics
is true, however it's obviously the case that high inflation is undesirable. Moderate inflation in the 2-3% range is healthy. Deflation is catastrophically bad because it disincentivizes economic growth by encouraging actors to hold on to their liquid cash as it becomes more valuable, rather than spend it.
Inflation is only loosely correlated to the money supply (printing money), and the inflation we see right now is mostly just a case of low supply and high demand across nearly every sector.
How is inflation good for the average person when their money lessens in value, they don’t get raises to adjust for it(because no company servicing average workers is going to give those unless they are dragged kicking and screaming by the government), and business mark up products to pass the cost of inflation on to consumers?
What exactly do you mean it’s good for the economy? How can it be good for the economy when the average person’s purchasing power is gets 10 years behind the value of their currency?
You know call me crazy but I’m starting to think that all “good for the economy” really means is, “good for business owners”.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Your average goyslave has more debt than savings, meaning inflation would help them
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Your average goyslave has more debt than savings, meaning inflation would help them
This. Of course we are all in the top 1%, amirite, my fellow millionaires and billionaires, so frick inflation.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Doesn't this encourage voluntarily going into debt, which encourages voluntarily moving towards inflation, etc. etc.?
2 years ago
Anonymous
yes inflation would require more people to take on more personal debt if they are poor, but debt is mostly affected by interest rates
the boom-bust cycle of credit > bubbles in prices > inevitable crash > credit crisis is an unsolved problem and probably inevitable if you live in a world where the activity called "investing in things" exists and can be transacted relatively freely
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Your average goyslave has more debt than savings
because the system forces debt upon him.0 inflation is good If poeple are investing only because of inflation then obviously investment isnt that good and wouldnt naturaly survive the market.
2 years ago
Anonymous
0 inflation is impossible, you have to choose between some deflation or inflatio
2 years ago
Anonymous
japan has it .You can keep it close to 0 .
2 years ago
Anonymous
Japan literally has negative interest loans just so they can have more inflation. They are scared shitless that the yen will deflate
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's good because deflation is worse, and you must have one.
2 years ago
Anonymous
inflation decreases the value of debt and the #1 way normies acquire capital and something approaching generational wealth is through home ownership and small business ownership, both of which would benefit from inflation both from reduced debt cost and also from home value appreciation / capital appreciation
this is a braindead take which is basically like a totally arbitrary fear-driven "muh dollar isnt worth as much over time!!!" as if "$1 should equal $1 over all time" is some kind of holy fetish, but the alternative of inflation is deflation is horrifically bad because as this anon said
This [...] is true, however it's obviously the case that high inflation is undesirable. Moderate inflation in the 2-3% range is healthy. Deflation is catastrophically bad because it disincentivizes economic growth by encouraging actors to hold on to their liquid cash as it becomes more valuable, rather than spend it.
Inflation is only loosely correlated to the money supply (printing money), and the inflation we see right now is mostly just a case of low supply and high demand across nearly every sector.
it basically grinds the entire economy to a halt and totally sabotages long-term investment which is the lifeblood of a growing society
finally actually generally wages do increase over time at a rate equal to or higher than rate of inflation, the 2008-2020 slow recovery which is where people started to see real wage stagnation was an exception rather than the rule and was because of how bad the 2008 crisis was and the governments pretty weak recovery initiatives. During the Drumpf administration as helped out by his tax cuts we started seeing wage growth really pick up and that actually kind of continued to now despite the lockdown hiccups and shit
last thing ill say is that obviously the current levels of inflation are a crisis but the current situation is getting fricked from like 10 dicks at once. russia-ukraine has spiked both grain, fertilizer, and energy prices (which especially affects agriculture), chinas moronic "zero covid" strategy is reducing trade levels and factory output from chinese imports, the economy got too much pumped into it not really from QE (which mostly affects financial asset prices obviously) but from giving every bubba like $8000 of free money checks and unemployment and then stacking a lot of spending on top of that
It is painful and will continue but it will pass. we can get maybe 7 of 10 dicks out of our mouths soon
2 years ago
Anonymous
>inflation decreases the value of debt and the #1 way normies acquire capital and something approaching generational wealth is through home ownership and small business ownership, both of which would benefit from inflation both from reduced debt cost and also from home value appreciation / capital appreciation
banks dont loan money for free, dumbass
what do think interest is for?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Not him but you're the dumbass, thinking that's a "gotcha". What do you think interest is for if not simply for the bank to make money by lending money? Explain.
What I see is that if someone bought a house last year with a 3% rate 30 year mortgage, inflation means that their house is now worth considerably more than the mortgage and they're locked in at half the interest rate that they'd get buying now. This is obviously beneficial to the home buyer.
Put more simply, when you have LOW INTEREST DEBT like a car loan, a mortgage, student loans, etc, high inflation far outpaces the interest rate on your debt.
2 years ago
Anonymous
this is so dumb that it is self-evident that you are too dumb to realize how dumb what you just said is
I will give you the simplest possible example >Take out 1000 dollars of debt >Don't have to pay it back for ten years >2% annual compounding interest rate >Cash due at the end of the loan contact is (1000 * (1.02)^10) = ~$1220 >3% avg annual inflation over the 10 year period >Therefore ~$1220 in 10 years is worth the equivalent, in todays dollars, of (1220/(1.03)^10) = $907
The bank loaned me $1000 today for which I will pay back the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $907
Now do this example, but instead of cash the bank lended me a mortgage loan and the value of the house appreciates with inflation (ie inflation goes up the house is worth more faster)
moron
FRICKING DUMB FRICK
FRICKING
R
E
T
A
R
D
HOLY SHIT
moron
2 years ago
Anonymous
Interest (or usury) is absolutely evil
2 years ago
Anonymous
Banks dont make money out of interest, the interest is there for as an anti-inflation measure. When you pay back a loan that money just dissappears from the system
2 years ago
Anonymous
Thanks for the answer but this >this is a braindead take which is basically like a totally arbitrary fear-driven "muh dollar isnt worth as much over time!!!" as if "$1 should equal $1 over all time" is some kind of holy fetish
is a bit unfair, since even if they can't express it what most people are worried about isn't the exact numerical equivalence but rather the idea of purchasing power. I'm sure you can understand people getting spooked when they see those productivity vs. wages chart or whatever that seem to imply that inflation is outpacing people's wage compensation.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Unqualified "inflation" always refers to something like the CPI which includes things that massively increase in price over time (housing, healthcare, education) and things that don't (consumer electronics, cars (the recent situation notwithstanding), clothing). It's not helpful to cry about nonspecific inflation when the real issues lie with specific economic sectors.
>Inflation
Debt becomes cheaper and people are encouraged to invest and spend >Deflation
Nobody spends because money gains value so there is no incentive to spend when you can simply hoard and wait. Debts become much more expensive and crushing to those with debt.
Hyperinflation is bad, but "normal" inflation is generally your better choice.
>Nobody spends because money gains value so there is no incentive to spend
oh nooo, people may save money and only buy things they really need and choose high quality long lasting products and strive to make wise decisions on purchases, nooo I must consooom
2 years ago
Anonymous
>high quality long lasting products
will suffer more
imagine you're a shopkeeper and this happens. less spending = economy shrinks
Patience is a virtue, young man
no one would trade money now for money later unless they were getting more money later. us financiers are very patient people but we need something.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Patient my ass
2 years ago
Anonymous
If we weren't patient then why would we be giving people money now in exchange for money in the future
>How is inflation good for the economy
You better work harder pesant or the party will take half your food I mean we will devalue your wage so you have to work more.
That housing etc is expensive isnt because of the larger money supply but because boomers are the only people who truly vote so the system is rigged in their favor. Zoning laws and HOAs affect house prices way more than printing money does and those prices indees should be subject to a market correction
Things are only worth how much people think they're worth. Money can be made up out of thin air and stocks can be manipulated out of nowhere. See Enron
Derivatives are so big largely because of the practice of cancelling out one's derivatives by buying their opposites. So for example, you might have a long on a call option on a stock at a strike price, and then you put a short on it which takes you at the market, but both will stay in existence until the time comes for all the options to be exercised, at which point they will cancel each other out. Also, the real value of any derivative is a fraction of the nominal value because it can only be exercised under certain conditions. In any given market, most of these conditions will be mutually exclusive.
You're correct, the money is owed to each other, or government's to their own citizens, or between individual companies, or between companies and financial institutions, etc. but I can tell by your question you're thinking like "Oh shit all that debt seems really bad, shouldn't it cancel out so no-one is really in debt kind of?"
I think the correct way to think about it, is that that figure shouldn't be perceived like "Oh this is the amount of credit card debt a struggling family has" or whatever, this is more like "what is the total amount of financing that's happening in the world," That's semantics, but it also gets to the root of what's really going on here.
The world has become a lot more financialized which means that it is cheap and easy and ubiquitous to use debt to get access to capital to do things right now rather than have to save up to spend cash. This is really important for countries/companies which want to finance productive activities . Remember that corporate bonds and government are a form of debt, and companies as common practice will take out $10M+ loans that they then repay in a few days, to keep purchasing / making payroll etc.
Also, that figure for derivatives is a little misleading , most of the time derivatives act just like an insurance contract on an activity or outcome (A farmer wants to buy fertilizer and is worried about the price going up can buy a future, and if the price goes down instead then he just has to pay the premium and won't exercise the option), and so often times derivatives just expire worthless or as
Derivatives are so big largely because of the practice of cancelling out one's derivatives by buying their opposites. So for example, you might have a long on a call option on a stock at a strike price, and then you put a short on it which takes you at the market, but both will stay in existence until the time comes for all the options to be exercised, at which point they will cancel each other out. Also, the real value of any derivative is a fraction of the nominal value because it can only be exercised under certain conditions. In any given market, most of these conditions will be mutually exclusive.
said cancel out.
The scary thing with derivatives is like 2008 when everyone is confident in a thing, so they sell swap contracts (insurance protecting the thing) for free money, then the market collapses, and everyone has to pay out, and many people can't, it can cause dominos of financial collapse. But that's distinct from just the sheer size of the paper value of the contracts.
The earliest derivatives markets traded grain. Say a farmer is set to harvest grain in 3 months time and offers to sell it for a certain price and a merchant agrees to buy it at that price when the time comes. No money has exchanged hands, but this money would be included in that chart, because it makes a big number and that spooks people like you.
In reality it is perfectly normal wholesome capitalism between upstanding patricians.
>country discovers a big gold deposit >that country is now the richest country on earth >literally every country has major incentive to go to war with them to take it >if they dont, all of their money based on gold is now worth less
what a fricking moronic system lmao it doesnt even make sense
also why would you base an economic system on the idea that at some point there is a finite amount of money that can exist lmao
It liberated global economies from medieval specie-driven 0.05% annual growth and enabled technological growth that was driven by demand of the economy.
Money is a medium of exchange, and even with inflation at play, its impossible to produce wealth if you cannot trade for your products and services without demand generated by people willing to spend their money.
The roblem lies in the inherent and endless abuse of the system that was driven by every government that took the easy way out - instead of managing the growth in line with real economy, the banking interest and speculation always overtook it. This is exarcebated by how that money is injected into the economy - either through a debt-laden fiat that demands perpetual high growth or through govenment printing that floods the market and ruins people's savings. The only reason gold works as money is because of the fixed and physical nature of it that cannot be conjured out of thin air, but until we start mining asteroids or replace the petro-dollar with something more stable, we're stuck.
The real problem with inflationary economics is it promotes what is essentially a parasitic incentive structure. Atleast as far as America is concerned, it gives banks and other vested interests essentially a monopoly on deciding the market winners and losers through easy lending. Institutions that 'play ball' get access to Capital that the federal government 'loans' from the reserve, promoting a parasitic order of unprofitable corporate entities that survive on easy lending, provided they too 'play ball.' What you have now in America is a system of pseudo state capitalism, through which banking institutions act as a proxy for the federal government. You'll see similar sorts of orientations in the aerospace industry via cost plus type contracting, and other related practices. It's not health market behaviour, and fundamentally you can only promote unproductive behaviour for so long before you reach a bottom line
there is a competitive banking system with lots of players so if one bank wont lend to you, if its profitable, another bank will. Any company can get bank loans if they can look like they can pay it back, i am struggling to think of any company that ever got blacklisted for anything less than gross violations of the law, and even then shady companies get financing all the time.
can you seriously name a company that was profitable and well-run that couldn't get loans because it didn't "play ball" (whatever the frick that is supposed to mean)?
Companies can also issue debt (bonds) or sell equity to raise money. Can you think of an example of a really good money-making idea that couldn't get some form of venture capital or angel investor money?
>Institutions that 'play ball' get access to Capital that the federal government 'loans' from the reserve
that's not how the banking system or lending works at all you fricking moron
are you saying that you think it works like this: "ok we want to give a loan to company X, we need to ask the federal reserve first becuase we get all our money from the federal reserve. they put it in our account, then we lend it out. if we lend to the wrong company the federal reserve might not give us money to lend" thats not how it works at all holy shit
this is the shit that a moronic high schooler would think up, its beyond stupid
>are you saying that you think it works like this: "ok we want to give a loan to company X, we need to ask the federal reserve first becuase we get all our money from the federal reserve. they put it in our account, then we lend it out. if we lend to the wrong company the federal reserve might not give us money to lend" thats not how it works at all holy shit
I mean you can run with you headcanon. What I said though is that the government has the discretionary ability to make markets through essentially blank cheque loans, and yes they can do this through banks. If you want an example, literally look at what I mentioned. Companies like lockheed, northrop, etc.. have their bread and butter in cost plus contracts, even fricking bill nelson of all people has said it's a fricking plague. They only get these contracts because of their extensive lobbies and pre existing relationships. On top of this they use their pull to stifle competition. Given that the federal government has been running a deficit for 20 years now, the fact is they are subsidizing insider profits through the veil of contracts, paid for by blank cheque loans from the fed.
That's literally not what you said what you said was that the federal reserve controls what corporations can exist through the banking system and 'easy lending' which is patently bullshit
And then for your example you picked the defense industry, which is a big NO FRICKING SHIT example because the main buyer of the US DEFENSE INDUSTRY is THE US DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
moron
2 years ago
Anonymous
No, I said the federal government does this, and yes they do.
2 years ago
Anonymous
No, I said the federal government does this, and yes they do.
>What you have now in America is a system of pseudo state capitalism, through which banking institutions act as a proxy for the federal government
Like Black person forreal can you read?
We could live in a post-scarcity utopia TODAY if we followed these simple steps >abolish the concept of debt >remove all limits on borrowing
Boom, infinite capital for consumption and investment, the real drivers of an economy.
MONEY is an infinite resource, the only reason there isn’t enough of it is because of artificially imposed scarcity by a class of parasites (international bankers and fed) that maintains a monopoly over it through anti-counterfeit laws.
Without debt and limits on loans we could live in an actual infinite growth economy >inflation
Irrelevant when you can borrow as much as you need and never have to pay it back >b-but people would just become lazy NEETs that don’t contribute anything and just consume
False. People have a natural psychological inclination for being productive, sitting on your ass doesn’t make people happy.
While people like being productive they DON’T like being treated as slaves, people stay in jobs they hate, doing things half assedly because they don’t want risking being homeless.
With infinite loans they don’t have to pay back people will still work and moreover will be more productive because they’ll be satisfied with their jobs knowing they can quit at any time if they feel like it.
The only reason we don’t do this is because it goes against the interests of a parasitical ruling class.
Thank you for attending my Tedtalk.
current economies would not exist without money printing
I don't understand the question
it obviously works
I mean printing lots of money to pay for things
there is no comparison to modern economies. The IMF and other world economic leaders have even stated they have no idea what US debt means for the world economy nothing like it has ever existed.
It's a temporary solution to a systemic problem.
whats the systemic problem?
Jews.
why cant you people stay on /misc/
nobody wants you schizos posting here
The fact that you people can't handle a simple joke about israelites being highly involved in finance makes it funnier.
Yeah, but you weren't joking. And you being Schrodinger's butthole and insecure on a website where you're the largest board is even funnier.
Denbts
?t=1919
seems like more of a symptom of a bigger problem like corruption or defeat in a war. from this video, debt is kind of like an energy drink for production that governments get addicted to until they completely wear themselves out, but the bigger question seems to be "why do we need the accelerated production in the first place?"
You wanna talk about the logical capital, profit motive and growth, son?
yes. idk what logical capital is but i want to know
He specifically means qu*ntitat*ve e*sing
>it obviously works
look I made money 10 other poeple made money ponzi scheme works
The economy is all fake at this point and propped up by literally nothing. Fricking around with fiat currency will ultimately only end in disaster after disaster.
all currency is "fake"
money only exists as a means to roughly gestimate the labour value of any given object
the actual tumor thats killing western economies are that one of their largest industries is the fricking finacial "economy" which creates nothing of practical value and serves only to move already existing currency around, these transactions create nothing of value in the process while also taking up workers that could be best used else where
>the actual tumor thats killing western economies are that one of their largest industries is the fricking finacial "economy" which creates nothing of practical value and serves only to move already existing currency around, these transactions create nothing of value in the process while also taking up workers that could be best used else where
Great take, I agree
>"Oops, we ran out of money to move, the velocity of exchange is slowing."
>"Print more, then we can keep moving it around."
And so it was.
>how can the "world" be in debt?
That's a great question to have, and the answer is that the monetary system is not a zero-sum system. There isn't a limited quantity of currency shard among everyone within a closed system impervious to outside tampering.
They can adjust it however they want.
Upwards or downwards, or even sideways if it's what they want.
The only reason it works is because people believe it does.
As soon as they stop believing, it stops working.
Hence the israelite media empire. Just another spell caster holding up the illusion.
I meant to summarize by saying the world is in debt because that's what the israelites tell you is happening.
They've created an elaborate system from nothing to make you believe it.
brainlet take, the value of money, just like the value of anything else, is situational. So like merchants increase the value of production by moving goods where they are needed (which incentivizes production by raising prices), financiers increase the value of loaned funds by moving it to where it is needed (which allows for capital improvements to be made by incentivizing the loaning of funds).
Yeah, derivatives can be dangerous. Still, the chart is misleading and derivatives do fill an important role.
gold was a far far bigger fiat currency. Paper money is tied to the economic output of the nation, and thus is far more rational.
I legitimately had to do a double take and reread your post. Congratulations, I now think you're a complete moron or master bater
please explain how gold was not a fiat currency. Explain its intrinsic value during hte 1700s?
(You)
such a strong argument. For what every economist in the world who can count understands is a moronic idea. There is not a enough gold in the world to run any large economy. Its moronic, and gold only recently has any intrinsic value in electronics and then not much. Not even running a fractional reserve gold standard would work.
I'm not going to effort post for the benefit of an utter moron or troll; (You) get what (You) deserve
awww baby is mad his dumb idea is blindly accepted off /misc/. Sorry but people can atleast count here on IQfy
Thanks for proving my point, (You) homosexual.
ya you really showed me. All that jargon you used and data, plus charts. O wait you just immediately resorted to spurging out because you argument is based on feelings instead of reality.
(You)
>There is not a enough gold in the world to run any large economy.
what a moronic take even if there was one kilo of gold in the whole world it would work .Sure you would trade in nanograms but if would work.
bruh then its a "fiat" currency moron. So not trading nanograms of gold does not work.
Printing money is generally not the main cause of hyperinflation, and inflation itself is usually good for the economy.
How is inflation good for the economy? I think the housing, medical, and other prices are too high and need to crash. Maybe the US needs to burn some currency to get prices down.
>How is inflation good for the economy
It encourages investment and decreases the relative value of your debts. Among other things, it's been years since I was in Macroeconomics
Inflated home prices can be good for someone in debt. They can sell their home fast and pay off the debt with all the new value that's accrued.
This
is true, however it's obviously the case that high inflation is undesirable. Moderate inflation in the 2-3% range is healthy. Deflation is catastrophically bad because it disincentivizes economic growth by encouraging actors to hold on to their liquid cash as it becomes more valuable, rather than spend it.
Inflation is only loosely correlated to the money supply (printing money), and the inflation we see right now is mostly just a case of low supply and high demand across nearly every sector.
How is inflation good for the average person when their money lessens in value, they don’t get raises to adjust for it(because no company servicing average workers is going to give those unless they are dragged kicking and screaming by the government), and business mark up products to pass the cost of inflation on to consumers?
What exactly do you mean it’s good for the economy? How can it be good for the economy when the average person’s purchasing power is gets 10 years behind the value of their currency?
You know call me crazy but I’m starting to think that all “good for the economy” really means is, “good for business owners”.
Your average goyslave has more debt than savings, meaning inflation would help them
>Your average goyslave has more debt than savings, meaning inflation would help them
This. Of course we are all in the top 1%, amirite, my fellow millionaires and billionaires, so frick inflation.
Doesn't this encourage voluntarily going into debt, which encourages voluntarily moving towards inflation, etc. etc.?
yes inflation would require more people to take on more personal debt if they are poor, but debt is mostly affected by interest rates
the boom-bust cycle of credit > bubbles in prices > inevitable crash > credit crisis is an unsolved problem and probably inevitable if you live in a world where the activity called "investing in things" exists and can be transacted relatively freely
>Your average goyslave has more debt than savings
because the system forces debt upon him.0 inflation is good If poeple are investing only because of inflation then obviously investment isnt that good and wouldnt naturaly survive the market.
0 inflation is impossible, you have to choose between some deflation or inflatio
japan has it .You can keep it close to 0 .
Japan literally has negative interest loans just so they can have more inflation. They are scared shitless that the yen will deflate
It's good because deflation is worse, and you must have one.
inflation decreases the value of debt and the #1 way normies acquire capital and something approaching generational wealth is through home ownership and small business ownership, both of which would benefit from inflation both from reduced debt cost and also from home value appreciation / capital appreciation
this is a braindead take which is basically like a totally arbitrary fear-driven "muh dollar isnt worth as much over time!!!" as if "$1 should equal $1 over all time" is some kind of holy fetish, but the alternative of inflation is deflation is horrifically bad because as this anon said
it basically grinds the entire economy to a halt and totally sabotages long-term investment which is the lifeblood of a growing society
finally actually generally wages do increase over time at a rate equal to or higher than rate of inflation, the 2008-2020 slow recovery which is where people started to see real wage stagnation was an exception rather than the rule and was because of how bad the 2008 crisis was and the governments pretty weak recovery initiatives. During the Drumpf administration as helped out by his tax cuts we started seeing wage growth really pick up and that actually kind of continued to now despite the lockdown hiccups and shit
last thing ill say is that obviously the current levels of inflation are a crisis but the current situation is getting fricked from like 10 dicks at once. russia-ukraine has spiked both grain, fertilizer, and energy prices (which especially affects agriculture), chinas moronic "zero covid" strategy is reducing trade levels and factory output from chinese imports, the economy got too much pumped into it not really from QE (which mostly affects financial asset prices obviously) but from giving every bubba like $8000 of free money checks and unemployment and then stacking a lot of spending on top of that
It is painful and will continue but it will pass. we can get maybe 7 of 10 dicks out of our mouths soon
>inflation decreases the value of debt and the #1 way normies acquire capital and something approaching generational wealth is through home ownership and small business ownership, both of which would benefit from inflation both from reduced debt cost and also from home value appreciation / capital appreciation
banks dont loan money for free, dumbass
what do think interest is for?
Not him but you're the dumbass, thinking that's a "gotcha". What do you think interest is for if not simply for the bank to make money by lending money? Explain.
What I see is that if someone bought a house last year with a 3% rate 30 year mortgage, inflation means that their house is now worth considerably more than the mortgage and they're locked in at half the interest rate that they'd get buying now. This is obviously beneficial to the home buyer.
Put more simply, when you have LOW INTEREST DEBT like a car loan, a mortgage, student loans, etc, high inflation far outpaces the interest rate on your debt.
this is so dumb that it is self-evident that you are too dumb to realize how dumb what you just said is
I will give you the simplest possible example
>Take out 1000 dollars of debt
>Don't have to pay it back for ten years
>2% annual compounding interest rate
>Cash due at the end of the loan contact is (1000 * (1.02)^10) = ~$1220
>3% avg annual inflation over the 10 year period
>Therefore ~$1220 in 10 years is worth the equivalent, in todays dollars, of (1220/(1.03)^10) = $907
The bank loaned me $1000 today for which I will pay back the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $907
Now do this example, but instead of cash the bank lended me a mortgage loan and the value of the house appreciates with inflation (ie inflation goes up the house is worth more faster)
moron
FRICKING DUMB FRICK
FRICKING
R
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T
A
R
D
HOLY SHIT
moron
Interest (or usury) is absolutely evil
Banks dont make money out of interest, the interest is there for as an anti-inflation measure. When you pay back a loan that money just dissappears from the system
Thanks for the answer but this
>this is a braindead take which is basically like a totally arbitrary fear-driven "muh dollar isnt worth as much over time!!!" as if "$1 should equal $1 over all time" is some kind of holy fetish
is a bit unfair, since even if they can't express it what most people are worried about isn't the exact numerical equivalence but rather the idea of purchasing power. I'm sure you can understand people getting spooked when they see those productivity vs. wages chart or whatever that seem to imply that inflation is outpacing people's wage compensation.
Unqualified "inflation" always refers to something like the CPI which includes things that massively increase in price over time (housing, healthcare, education) and things that don't (consumer electronics, cars (the recent situation notwithstanding), clothing). It's not helpful to cry about nonspecific inflation when the real issues lie with specific economic sectors.
>Inflation
Debt becomes cheaper and people are encouraged to invest and spend
>Deflation
Nobody spends because money gains value so there is no incentive to spend when you can simply hoard and wait. Debts become much more expensive and crushing to those with debt.
Hyperinflation is bad, but "normal" inflation is generally your better choice.
>Nobody spends because money gains value so there is no incentive to spend
oh nooo, people may save money and only buy things they really need and choose high quality long lasting products and strive to make wise decisions on purchases, nooo I must consooom
>high quality long lasting products
will suffer more
imagine you're a shopkeeper and this happens. less spending = economy shrinks
no one would trade money now for money later unless they were getting more money later. us financiers are very patient people but we need something.
Patient my ass
If we weren't patient then why would we be giving people money now in exchange for money in the future
>How is inflation good for the economy
You better work harder pesant or the party will take half your food I mean we will devalue your wage so you have to work more.
That housing etc is expensive isnt because of the larger money supply but because boomers are the only people who truly vote so the system is rigged in their favor. Zoning laws and HOAs affect house prices way more than printing money does and those prices indees should be subject to a market correction
>everything about your cost of living going up is actually a good thing trust le science ;^)
>life becomes harder for the common man
>”this is good because....”
Well? Don’t keep us waiting
>Inflation is defined as too much money chasing too few goods.[49]
The more I learn about finance, the more I think the whole thing is fake and gay.
Things are only worth how much people think they're worth. Money can be made up out of thin air and stocks can be manipulated out of nowhere. See Enron
Derivatives are so big largely because of the practice of cancelling out one's derivatives by buying their opposites. So for example, you might have a long on a call option on a stock at a strike price, and then you put a short on it which takes you at the market, but both will stay in existence until the time comes for all the options to be exercised, at which point they will cancel each other out. Also, the real value of any derivative is a fraction of the nominal value because it can only be exercised under certain conditions. In any given market, most of these conditions will be mutually exclusive.
if it's so fake and gay, why do you have a lack of capital?
It exists to facilitate sucking wealth away from neo-colonies
brainlet question:
how can the "world" be in debt?
who do we own that money too?
obviously eachother, but doesn't that kinda cancel it out?
You're correct, the money is owed to each other, or government's to their own citizens, or between individual companies, or between companies and financial institutions, etc. but I can tell by your question you're thinking like "Oh shit all that debt seems really bad, shouldn't it cancel out so no-one is really in debt kind of?"
I think the correct way to think about it, is that that figure shouldn't be perceived like "Oh this is the amount of credit card debt a struggling family has" or whatever, this is more like "what is the total amount of financing that's happening in the world," That's semantics, but it also gets to the root of what's really going on here.
The world has become a lot more financialized which means that it is cheap and easy and ubiquitous to use debt to get access to capital to do things right now rather than have to save up to spend cash. This is really important for countries/companies which want to finance productive activities . Remember that corporate bonds and government are a form of debt, and companies as common practice will take out $10M+ loans that they then repay in a few days, to keep purchasing / making payroll etc.
Also, that figure for derivatives is a little misleading , most of the time derivatives act just like an insurance contract on an activity or outcome (A farmer wants to buy fertilizer and is worried about the price going up can buy a future, and if the price goes down instead then he just has to pay the premium and won't exercise the option), and so often times derivatives just expire worthless or as
said cancel out.
The scary thing with derivatives is like 2008 when everyone is confident in a thing, so they sell swap contracts (insurance protecting the thing) for free money, then the market collapses, and everyone has to pay out, and many people can't, it can cause dominos of financial collapse. But that's distinct from just the sheer size of the paper value of the contracts.
You just don't understand the chart.
The earliest derivatives markets traded grain. Say a farmer is set to harvest grain in 3 months time and offers to sell it for a certain price and a merchant agrees to buy it at that price when the time comes. No money has exchanged hands, but this money would be included in that chart, because it makes a big number and that spooks people like you.
In reality it is perfectly normal wholesome capitalism between upstanding patricians.
the gold standard is moronic.
>country discovers a big gold deposit
>that country is now the richest country on earth
>literally every country has major incentive to go to war with them to take it
>if they dont, all of their money based on gold is now worth less
what a fricking moronic system lmao it doesnt even make sense
also why would you base an economic system on the idea that at some point there is a finite amount of money that can exist lmao
and it allows countries to rob gold reserves with fiat too
people systematically overestimate the effect monetary policy and the FED have on the economy
>people systematically overestimate the effect monetary policy and the Reichsbank have on the economy
It liberated global economies from medieval specie-driven 0.05% annual growth and enabled technological growth that was driven by demand of the economy.
Money is a medium of exchange, and even with inflation at play, its impossible to produce wealth if you cannot trade for your products and services without demand generated by people willing to spend their money.
The roblem lies in the inherent and endless abuse of the system that was driven by every government that took the easy way out - instead of managing the growth in line with real economy, the banking interest and speculation always overtook it. This is exarcebated by how that money is injected into the economy - either through a debt-laden fiat that demands perpetual high growth or through govenment printing that floods the market and ruins people's savings. The only reason gold works as money is because of the fixed and physical nature of it that cannot be conjured out of thin air, but until we start mining asteroids or replace the petro-dollar with something more stable, we're stuck.
The real problem with inflationary economics is it promotes what is essentially a parasitic incentive structure. Atleast as far as America is concerned, it gives banks and other vested interests essentially a monopoly on deciding the market winners and losers through easy lending. Institutions that 'play ball' get access to Capital that the federal government 'loans' from the reserve, promoting a parasitic order of unprofitable corporate entities that survive on easy lending, provided they too 'play ball.' What you have now in America is a system of pseudo state capitalism, through which banking institutions act as a proxy for the federal government. You'll see similar sorts of orientations in the aerospace industry via cost plus type contracting, and other related practices. It's not health market behaviour, and fundamentally you can only promote unproductive behaviour for so long before you reach a bottom line
this is literally nonsense that means nothing
there is a competitive banking system with lots of players so if one bank wont lend to you, if its profitable, another bank will. Any company can get bank loans if they can look like they can pay it back, i am struggling to think of any company that ever got blacklisted for anything less than gross violations of the law, and even then shady companies get financing all the time.
can you seriously name a company that was profitable and well-run that couldn't get loans because it didn't "play ball" (whatever the frick that is supposed to mean)?
Companies can also issue debt (bonds) or sell equity to raise money. Can you think of an example of a really good money-making idea that couldn't get some form of venture capital or angel investor money?
>Institutions that 'play ball' get access to Capital that the federal government 'loans' from the reserve
that's not how the banking system or lending works at all you fricking moron
are you saying that you think it works like this: "ok we want to give a loan to company X, we need to ask the federal reserve first becuase we get all our money from the federal reserve. they put it in our account, then we lend it out. if we lend to the wrong company the federal reserve might not give us money to lend" thats not how it works at all holy shit
this is the shit that a moronic high schooler would think up, its beyond stupid
>are you saying that you think it works like this: "ok we want to give a loan to company X, we need to ask the federal reserve first becuase we get all our money from the federal reserve. they put it in our account, then we lend it out. if we lend to the wrong company the federal reserve might not give us money to lend" thats not how it works at all holy shit
I mean you can run with you headcanon. What I said though is that the government has the discretionary ability to make markets through essentially blank cheque loans, and yes they can do this through banks. If you want an example, literally look at what I mentioned. Companies like lockheed, northrop, etc.. have their bread and butter in cost plus contracts, even fricking bill nelson of all people has said it's a fricking plague. They only get these contracts because of their extensive lobbies and pre existing relationships. On top of this they use their pull to stifle competition. Given that the federal government has been running a deficit for 20 years now, the fact is they are subsidizing insider profits through the veil of contracts, paid for by blank cheque loans from the fed.
That's literally not what you said what you said was that the federal reserve controls what corporations can exist through the banking system and 'easy lending' which is patently bullshit
And then for your example you picked the defense industry, which is a big NO FRICKING SHIT example because the main buyer of the US DEFENSE INDUSTRY is THE US DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
moron
No, I said the federal government does this, and yes they do.
>What you have now in America is a system of pseudo state capitalism, through which banking institutions act as a proxy for the federal government
Like Black person forreal can you read?
We could live in a post-scarcity utopia TODAY if we followed these simple steps
>abolish the concept of debt
>remove all limits on borrowing
Boom, infinite capital for consumption and investment, the real drivers of an economy.
MONEY is an infinite resource, the only reason there isn’t enough of it is because of artificially imposed scarcity by a class of parasites (international bankers and fed) that maintains a monopoly over it through anti-counterfeit laws.
Without debt and limits on loans we could live in an actual infinite growth economy
>inflation
Irrelevant when you can borrow as much as you need and never have to pay it back
>b-but people would just become lazy NEETs that don’t contribute anything and just consume
False. People have a natural psychological inclination for being productive, sitting on your ass doesn’t make people happy.
While people like being productive they DON’T like being treated as slaves, people stay in jobs they hate, doing things half assedly because they don’t want risking being homeless.
With infinite loans they don’t have to pay back people will still work and moreover will be more productive because they’ll be satisfied with their jobs knowing they can quit at any time if they feel like it.
The only reason we don’t do this is because it goes against the interests of a parasitical ruling class.
Thank you for attending my Tedtalk.
>People have a natural psychological inclination for being productive
let me introduce you to the continent of africa
Printing money works, austrian cucks are wrong, MMT is correct
where did debt slavery originate from? what I mean why did institutions of society just magically start charging extra money for withdrawls?
Time preference of money + first guy to not pay back his creditor.
>time preference
Usual excuse from the usual subjects
I need 400,000$ to buy a house
I'll pay you back all 400,000$ back in 30 years every penny back
so when will you lend me the money?
Patience is a virtue, young man
Because they can?
Anyone know how muslim banks are allowed to charge interest rates when their religion forbids them to? Some loophole or what?
Yeah, they hide it with math tricks. I think there are flat fees rather than interest rates or something.
>Muslim banks
>Soviet accounting
Those are powerful memes, son.