Why shouldn't I have a home server integrated into my daily driver PC, in a VM or something, and have it 24/7?
>i7-12700
>DDR4 3200 CL16
>fast NVMe
>6 SATA ports on motherboard
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 CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
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Home server in PC
Why shouldn't I have a home server integrated into my daily driver PC, in a VM or something, and have it 24/7?
>i7-12700
>DDR4 3200 CL16
>fast NVMe
>6 SATA ports on motherboard
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CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
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>Why shouldn't I have a single point of failure for all my files/services?
>what is RAID
>what are regular off-site backups
>Totally missing the point
Explain then. If I had my home server in separate box, it would still be a single point of failure for all those important services that I need to host for me and my family, wouldn't it?
No.
Your workstation now becomes your single point of failure.
Imagine if you ran DNS services on your 'server/workstation,' then updated your workstation.
During updates, your entire network does not have DNS.
If you have a tiny, single person network...probably fine. But, in any normal network, this is unacceptable.
>updated your workstation
It is a home server, so occasional downtimes are inevitable anyway. But this can be mitigated by running something like Qubes OS - all my "daily driver" stuff would be in VMs that can be updated easily without affecting other VMs. And dom0 doesn't need updates very often.
>risk of data loss due to hardware failure
Same with a home server box standing right next to it.
>malware
Can be mitigated by OS, see above.
>lightning
Same with a dedicated box.
>accidental deletion
What?
>excessive power use
Is it really? I think 12700 can be as energy efficient as Xeons.
>no ECC
Alright, forgot about that. But please explain me, anons, is it really that necessary? Are memory errors so prevalent that I need such costly protection? It's not just memory, it's the motherboard as well (which, by the way, I couldn't have Coreboot on).
>is it really that necessary?
>what is bit-rot?
Bro it all depends on what you are doing with it.
In terms of your decade-old 'idea:'
Will you notice it? Probably not.
Is it a good idea? Probably not.
Do you do this professional like the people replying in the thread? Probably not.
Flip your argument around and do a thought experiment:
>Why don't you integrate your daily driver PC into a server and remote into it from a thin client?
Because it fricking sucks, that's why.
Same reason for your braindead, 10-year-old idea.
>what is bit-rot?
>Do you do this professional
I'm not, so forgive me for asking: what is a realistic scenario I can encounter data corruption in? Because, for example, if I'm downloading or uploading something, the software verifies checksums all the time anyway, so any memory corruption would be quickly noticed and repaired (and having a false positive checksum verification is highly unlikely). DNS? VPN? XMPP?
MP3 downloaded/ripped then stored on disk
Copy operation
Another copy operation
Another copy operation
Bit-rot occurs
The more your computer is doing, then higher chance of this occurring due to the aforementioned non-ECC RAM.
>sandbox VM
>pihole
>directory services (shut up people do it at home)
>storage
>emby/streaming
>deluge/torrent seedbox
>metrics/log server
>monitoring server
>home assistant / dashboard software
>NVR server
every time I come here I realize IQfy is the stupidest board of all
Dude, with modern operating systems and file systems, ECC is overkill for anything not literally mission critical while handling terrabytes worth of data on a daily basis. In the last 12 years of running systems like mine with both server and userland applications running on the same system concurrently, I've literally had ZERO data corruption on-disk in the that entire time. "Bit rot" is overblown. The REAL killers of data is shit operating systems like Windows and macOS and bad hardware.
>bad hardware
>What is ECC
Yeah, bad hardware like RAM.
I generally agree with you but "terrabytes" worth of data on a daily basis is not that much.
All of the things you listed are workstation functions.
I listed services here
, none of which you seem to consider.
List exactly what your 'VMs' do.
Dude, frick you in your piehole with your pihole bullshit. A Raspberry Pi doesn't HAVE fricking ECC. You are just a fricking shitlord on a tibetan psychedelic honey harvesting forum like the rest of us. LOL! I've been coming to this shithole for over a decade and you are, legitimately, the most aggro homosexual I've ever come across.
>pihole
>name of software
>doesn't need to run on Pi
>actually just fancy DNS
>services entire network
>low CPU
>runs all the time
You just proved my point.
IQfy is for morons, by morons.
You're still missing the point. None of the things you listed are out of the scope of systems without ECC and even further, none on a scale used by non-large-scale-businesses will ever have major problems by not using ECC.
Pihole has ARM builds and specific setups for home and soho settings. I literally have one running on a RPI 4 4gb model as we speak for my network. You are King Shitlord.
Pihole has nothing to do with ECC you dense homosexual.
It is just ONE example, of many, that I gave as a reason why you would not want to 'stack' your workstation with VMs/other network services.
I am King Shitlord because IQfy is filled with vir/g/ins like you who cannot think outside their own small world and listen to anons who offer them an expanded perspective.
Dude, OP clearly stated he's just going to do normal human shit on his normal human computer. You are so angry for literally zero reason. You started off by insisting it's a horrible idea to have ANYTHING running on a system besides an OS and "regular" applications. Come on, man. You're like a cop that belittles people for being drunk in public and then getting busted for drinking on the job. lol. lol... and lol again.
>OP asks for reasons why he should not
>Anon responds with reasons why he should not
I understand you are a colossal homosexual but at least read the thread fully before responding.
He legit made it clear he wasn't going to be doing anything that would require ECC. Dude, you are a half a step away from just screaming ECC REEEE ECC REEEE ECC REEEE for no reason. You are constantly mad IRL, aren't you? I imagine you have constant "I NEED TO SEE YOUR MANAGER" energy emanating from you at all times.
>constantly brings up ECC
>accuses others of obsessing about ECC
>what is projection?
>what is mid-witism?
You have nothing to add.
I'm helping OP understand why using his workstation for EVERYTHING is sub-optimal.
Uhh...
My first post ITT was
My first commenting about ECC was a reply to
You do see "non-ECC RAM" there, right?
Yeah, you're not just angry, you're also more moronic than all the morons you're saying inhabit IQfy.
You're in real good frickin' company, apparently.
>reddit spacing
you have to go back
Yeah, no, try again.
How many posts do I have listed there in my account, buddy?
midwit detected
pic related
Notice how all those are not my first few IQfy bookmarks? I just visit them when one of my IRL friends says something interesting is happening on one of them or when I want to discuss something new. Same with s/adv/irgin and randum/b/.
>every time I come here I realize IQfy is the stupidest board of all
I realize I may look stupid to you, but the state of this board is not going to improve if newbies are ostracized instead of motivated to learn more. But you still sticked to this thread and are contributing, so thank you for that. You were also a newbie back in the days, am I right?
>Another copy operation
>Bit-rot occurs
ZFS would protect against that, not sure about BTRFS.
>pihole
>storage
>emby/streaming
>deluge/torrent seedbox
>metrics/log server
>monitoring server
>home assistant / dashboard software
Yeah, I want to do all of these things.
>Yeah, I want to do all of these things.
Use your local workstation for work.
Use your server for services.
Simple as.
You are welcome.
Will hang out here for more discussion.
Just stating it point-blank doesn't work, I hope you know that. Reasons are necessary. Well, we sticked to non-ECC RAM for now...
>Also, no ZFS would not protect against bit-rot.
Well...
>So what does your evil RAM need to do in order to actually overwrite your good data with corrupt data during a scrub? Well, first it needs to flip some bits during the initial read of every block that it wants to corrupt. Then, on the second read of a copy of the block from parity or redundancy, it needs to not only flip bits, it needs to flip them in such a way that you get a hash collision. In other words, random bit-flipping won’t do – you need some bit flipping in the data (with or without some more bit-flipping in the checksum) that adds up to the corrupt data correctly hashing to the value in the checksum. By default, ZFS uses 256-bit SHA validation hashes, which means that a single bit-flip has a 1 in 2^256 chance of giving you a corrupt block which now matches its checksum.
>https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
So this is not true:
>Filesystems do not protect against 'application' level errors, which includes errors-on-copy.
And I think BTRFS with RAID 1 would protect against that as well, but I can't support this idea for now, unfortunately.
>you would still have your PC/laptop to back up your important files
Backups would be done automatically, not manually after some kind of failure - how stupid would that be? But I will still have my Thinkpad to browse the internet in case the PSU dies, correct.
Running it in VMs is more secure - both against malware and against some stupid experimenting. If I do all the regular shit in separated VMs, then that has zero chance of fricking hosted services.
NTA, but don't you ever restart a router? Same thing, and it's only a two minutes or so downtime.
pic related, from a ZFS dev and from your article you posted
>but don't you ever restart a router?
Very rarely, no, generally you never restart a router.
In fact, a router is a perfect example of a PURPOSE BUILT computer.
A router COULD be run as a VM on your main machine, in a VM...but that is generally 'frowned' upon.
Why?
The answer to this question is THE answer to OPs post.
>Never restart a router.
"In general" is not never.
Firmware updates are super important.
You're still an edgy twenty something. Come back when you've got an extra decade or two of life wienerslapping the irritable shitgoose out of you, mate.
>Very rarely, no.
Learn to read.
I have more experience than you.
Fair enough.
I highly doubt you have more experience than me.
I went to college for network administration in 2003 and have been working in IT actively since 2001. I'm now living the dream self-employed as a developer and work at home a few hours a week while pursuing my passions otherwise.
I'm also married to a software developer who has 17 years of programming experience and has been actively doing software development as a full-time job since 2017.
I'm 99% certain you don't have half the experience I do and 100% certain that between my wife and I, you have less than a quarter our combined experience.
>I'm also married to a software developer
troony lover or homosexual?
Wife. Didn't you try to frick with ME over reading comprehension earlier? lol
She literally went to an all woman's college near the campus where RedHat was born.
wrong person, homosexual
sounds like your wife wears the pants in the relationship, kek
developers are the artists of the IT world...overly confident in their myopic understanding of technolo/g/y
Bro... What do you think you know that I don't?
I can do coding from everything from 8 bit assembly all the way up to high-order modern languages. I'm a proficient hardware builder and component-level repairman. I'm very familiar with everything to do with network administration, design and building.
>developer thinks he's good at everything
checkmate, homosexual
So what are you good at, friend?
You seem to be shit at everything but clogging up the shitter that is IQfy with your prophetic nerdnuggets.
>pic related
Doesn't take BTRFS with RAID 1 into account.
>Very rarely, no, generally you never restart a router.
Well, after preparing a comfy setup, I don't think I'll have the regular need of restarting dom0 either. And even if I did (>very rarely), that's just two minutes of downtime.
>ZFS would protect against that,
Also, no ZFS would not protect against bit-rot.
ZFS is a filesystem.
Filesystems do not protect against 'application' level errors, which includes errors-on-copy.
>Filesystems do not protect against 'application' level errors, which includes errors-on-copy.
Unless the copy is done with something like reflink with btrfs
No, you would still have your PC/laptop to back up your important files or to browse the internet if your PSU dies or whatever.
>what is uptime
>what is crashes
also, not mentioned yet
>what is context switching?
>what are interrupt requests?
>what is bandwidth?
>what is uptime
autistm
Good servers have weekly "service" reboots and updates on schedules
>what is crashes
bad
well, a dedicated server would also be a single point of failure. what do you think im going to have a datacenter at home?
Valid point but whatever. The desktop PC I have is the only remotely fast device in my house so why not use it for all possible things?
Currently it's a
>router
>seedbox
>fileserver
>Facebook/YouTube machine
>print server
Would have turned it to WiFi access point too if I already didn't have one.
>Restart computer
>Lose internet access in the entire house
Yes.
>entire house
In my case that's two "smart" devices that serve no important use cases.
>two "smart" devices
Then it's fine to 'run' everything on your network on a single computer.
As you mature 'technologically,' you will find your needs will also mature, and taking down your network (DNS), or killing your security system recording (NVR) isn't acceptable, hence the need for a server.
Server for services.
Workstation for work.
risk of data loss due to hardware failure, malware, lightning, or accidental deletion, no ECC, excessive power use and noise
>no ECC
forgot about this one, nice catch
don't forget about ECC OP
Home server on primary system is just fine so long as you're willing to potentially lose data. As long as anything important is stored with your own encryption in a cloud service or externally/off-site, you're just fine.
There are more upsides than downsides to consolidating storage into your primary machine.
I've got my system set up to share media throughout the house and it's fantastic. Everything important(IE: NOT media) is stored in cold storage on and offsite as well as some things are stored offsite in cloud storage.
that's assuming only storage
OP seems pretty green/junior so I can't imagine he's doing anything 'real'
What would you consider "real", bearing in mind that home server is literally in the subject?
Dude, I'm a webdev/netops guy who also likes to produce music and play video games. I literally do all of that on the same machine. As long as you have important shit offsite and/or in cold storage, you're good. Whether OP's use case is "just storage" or as extensive as mine is irrelevant if they've got the hardware and knowledge to support it.
>produce music
>play games
This is what 'workstations' are built to do as they are "single purpose" with "direct access" to the hardware .
You are only considering "storage."
Storage is one of MANY services OP may just to 'integrate' with his home workstation.
If OP wants to do 'more' than simple sharing/storing files, and run VMs like he suggested in his post, then he is introducing factors he, and you, are not considering.
Again, IQfy is filled with morons.
I'm not surprised a 'webdev/netops' homosexual thinks what he thinks.
So what are you considering "doing more?"
I literally run VM's, do video rendering, 3d rendering, audio mixing and production, gaming, web development and run servers for all of those said activities on the same machine.
Who the frick do you think you are, a particle physicist working at CERN?
online gayming with anti-cheat botnets won't play nice if you're running Windows inside a VM.
Or even if you're running Windows host and Linux inside a Hyper-V
I'm not a gaymer - anything I would like to play twice a year wouldn't be an online game. But yes, if I were, it would be a valid point. So maybe this is food for thought for other anons with the same idea.
Why not just run all the services in your OS?
Related but unrelated:
I need to help my parents by fixing issues with their PC constantly; teamviewer is whinging it's being used for premium purposes when it bloody well isn't but it can't be convinced otherwise and I'm tired of trying to fix it, and parental assistance software is fricking expensive.
Is a Pi-KVM overkill for this?
Maybe I can provide you with my perspective on this. I used to have a desktop and standalone tinyminimicro server, but once I made laptop my main computer I decided to migrate server stuff to the desktop. I run shit in Docker containers, and when I want to play a gaem I just run a VM with GPU passthrough. For occasional gaming it's pretty fine.
You'd however like to keep the "desktop" part the main goal of your machine, unlike me that prioritized "server" part. If you run Linux already, I'd say you could comfortably use Docker to have your services somewhat neatly organized right alongside other processes on your host system, and wouldn't have to mess with a VM for them. 300 TB porn hoarder anon does it like that and he likes it.
This might be a not bad idea, just know what you're getting into. Also see /hsg/.
Thank you for that. I'd still like to use VMs, because I just like the concept of Qubes OS and it will let me do a lot more experimenting than I could get with in case of docker containers. But if I read that right, you don't see an issue with making a PC a server? What about power usage - what are your specs and what does your server do?
Also: stop wasting your life on porn, anon.
Guys, as much as I value your contributions, stop comparing your dicks. Let's have meritocracy here on IQfy, alright? Someone with all the experience in the world can still be blind to some things. On the other hand, if someone fakes his experience (not saying you do,
, just the other anon suggests it), that doesn't mean his perspective is automatically wrong. And of courses, a complete newbie can have some valuable ideas as well (not saying that I do, though).
On a more personal note, though, you seem like an interesting person. I'd love to have someone like this as an acquaintance.
I'll take the compliment.
I'm just an older gay who spent his time wisely(36.)
My advice for people is to pursue your interests and try to learn and practice as much as you can with your passions. Don't be afraid to frick up and be persistent.
Also, as far as dick measuring, I've mostly just been shitting on this guy for being so salty over everything. I'm also heavily defending the case for people using their machines as dual purpose workstations and servers, so long as it's done right.
People who REEEE out over the two being mutually exclusive are crazy.
>you don't see an issue with making a PC a server?
I would still consider making it a separate machine for reasons
posted. Or maybe you'd want to mess with hardware of PC and will have to also shut down the server part and your grandpa just started watching some hentai, you wouldn't interrupt the show, would you? For similar reasons my router is made out of a standalone thin client - I can mess with server and it won't affect internet access for my roommates. If you know those "risks" then I don't see any other problem with it, other than VMs being overkill and pain in the ass sometimes, e.g. you probably won't have good time if you decide you want to use ZFS in server VM, and you won't be able to pass through the mobo SATA controller to it without taking rest of chipset with it. Or maybe your mobo has it in a separate IOMMU group and that wouldn't be an issue, check it beforehand. Usually stuff in PCIe slots gets separate groups, onboard stuff is mostly in one.
>What about power usage - what are your specs and what does your server do?
That's one other reason to consider a separate box. If your desktop is 100 W idle, buying a cheap tinyminimicro that idles at 10 watts (+ drives) might be worth it. Mine is a Ryzen 1700, 32G RAM, 6 HDDs, 4 SSDs and a 1060 which most of the time is suspended so it doesn't pull 20 watts showing TTY. The trick is to make sure vfio driver binds to the GPU, then after boot start and stop a VM using it. GPU will nicely go to sleep as if the PC was off.
What does it do? Media, torrents, game servers, Matrix with bridges, Nextcloud, Gitea, ASF, cryptocurrency nodes, PhotoPrism, games VM, etc.
I had a tinyminimicro but once I added game servers I decided to make use of those 8 cores, even at the expense of more electricity.
>Also: stop wasting your life on porn, anon.
I'm not the 300 TB guy, if you search archives for "300 TB" you'll probably find his posts.
Why not?
>Running game or some shitty software
>Crashes and freezes the whole PC
>All services are down while PC restarts
Or
>Windows demands you update
>All services down until it finishes
>Update breaks your services
Just seems like a shitty idea.
>Windows
There's the problem.
Windows is made for people who are too afraid to break things in the course of learning new things. Yet it still breaks constantly anyway.
Linux with a properly-maintained backup solution and /home/ directory is zen.
Yeah, but if you're daily driver is also your server then you can't risk experimenting because you might accidentally bring your services down.
Your server should be running a stable debian based distro.
Bro, most people don't have that many services running. I've got a few servers running on this system and if anything ever "breaks", it's an individual server and I can just revert to previous versions. If something breaks the whole system, I've just got everything in /home/ and use timeshift for iterative backups. It literally never takes me more than 15 minutes to go from "completely broken OS" to "like it never happened."
I want my services to have more than 60% uptime thanks
...again. Do you seriously think that just running services on a machine you also do daily activities on results in a 40% loss in uptime?
I've literally had 99.9999% uptime for the last 2 years.
Legitimately less than 2 hours of downtime in the last 2 years on this machine. I only ever need to reboot once every few weeks if something major requires it. It takes 30 seconds to go from powered off completely to a useable desktop with all my services started.
>I do nothing with my computer
So you have a server that you web browse on? Okay, got it
>Gaming
>Web Development
>Software Development
>Game Development
>3D Rendering
>Video Editing and Rendering
>Full LAMP
>Occasionally Game Server's for Private Matches
>Deep Learning Applications, Including but not limited to Deepfake Videos, Deepfake Voice Synthesis, Iterative GAN's learning to play video games
Oh yeah, you're right. Just web browsing on a box that runs a webserver. Yep. Get the frick over yourself, pal. You can legit do tons of fun things with a computer if you just put effort into it!
What a moron
That's why I want to use Qubes.
If you envision having a few minutes once in a while to spend unwisely, shoot me an email and maybe I will ask you for your thoughts about some (non-)technical matters: [email protected]
>Don't be afraid to frick up and be persistent.
Are you happy with what you do now? What are you working on?
>so long as it's done right
So, back to the topic, what would you advise to keep in mind?
I'll shoot you an email sometime in the next hour or so.
Yeah, I'm pretty happy doing what I do and living with the wife and both doing the developer thing.
As far as doing multirole right on a machine, the critical bit is making sure to get the hardware configured properly first and then building your software up afterwards. Run your servers in VM's or containers of some sort. Keep backups of everything you're not willing to lose, somewhere off-site preferably. Alternatively, keep stuff backed up on a few drives that you disconnect from the system when you're not actively backing stuff up. Cold storage is great. Off-site even better. If you're going to upload stuff to cloud storage, encrypt it using your own encryption.
Literally all of those are the keys to a successful multirole machine.
I used to run Slackware Linux for almost 2 decades. I switched to Manjaro almost 3 years ago and haven't looked back since. Slackware is far more stable but Manjaro is way more in-date and much easier to configure. I can literally change kernels just by picking one out of a menu, clicking "install" and then rebooting.
It's fantastic!
I would have used a Thermaltake Versa h22 case with a 3x 5.25 external bay for $50. The slapped pic in it for easier drive hotswap in times of failure.
Do you play vidya? Because a lot of anti cheats now flip out if a VM or Hypervisor is running.
A garbage tier $150 Dell SFF is enough to run most nas use cases, unless you're running plex and need to transcode files.
Power, and Noise.
90% of home server stuff can be done on something like a router it's so cheap. Maybe streaming with x265, transcoding, or fancy ASS subtitle rendering, or otherwise more expensive tasks need more.
Personally, I work at a solar powered workplace that puts energy back into the grid so I just turned a 2016 HP Optiplex from there into my "home" server for that expensive stuff, and my router does the rest.
I legit did this for 2 years.
Mine was an old shitbox from 2014 so the CPU overhead was just too much.
If you have a >8 core CPU it might work.