How long will we be in this awkward transition period between X and Wayland?
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How long will we be in this awkward transition period between X and Wayland?
>transition period
nobody is transitioning.
Wayland will die off eventually.
samegay bumping his own thread
samegay bumping his own reply
it's already over.
Wayland lost. it's dead.
these
>GNOME and KDE are just now dropping X
disgusting lie
KDE will officially support X for the entire Plasma 6 lifetime
and after that, for Plasma 7, they will see if Wayland is actually the way forward (which it isn't), or if it just dies
>the absolute state of Xtoddlers
Window managers have been reinventing the wheel well before Wayland. X was just a framebuffer, and a bad one at that because it's architecturally limited to what 90s machines can do
>X was just a framebuffer, and a bad one at that because it's architecturally limited to what 90s machines can do
How?
reality is worse than depicted in the image.
xwayland is xorg running on user space.
the future those moron envisioned is running another layer between xorg and the kernel.
this is how brilliant they are
>the future those moron envisioned is running another layer between xorg and the kernel.
But, do I need Wayland for that? (Inb4 Xephyr)
The problem with X11 is that the kernel does zero gpu display handling for you. Instead of issuing a syscall for basic window management, you have to query a massive runtime server for basic drawing.
This whole issue revolves around Linus' laziness and nobody seems willing to address it.
wait my computer has 4 different wayland compositors running simultaneously?
(You) are a Wayland compositor too
No. Every native wayland application (almost none exist so far) you run has to implement support for each compositor's quirks, bugs and proprietary extensions.
Instead of simply using a common protocol like in X11, every app developer will have to write their app for many different wayland compositors. This will be a nightmare.
Wayland "protocol" is useless. It's a failure.
>Every native wayland application (almost none exist so far)
Huh?
Cope harder, support for x11 will slowly but surely drop
>Support
What's there to support? Its been more or less unchanged since about 2012. It has a widely accepted protocol with half a dozen different implementations (only 2 on Linux tho). As it currently stands you can run X applications more or less unmodified from the 1980's and 90's on Linux, Mac, Windows, *BSDs, and probably a couple of hobby OSes as well. The only thing that changes is the GPU drivers which aren't even in the scope of the X protocol anyway. And those drivers will probably continue to get updates because systems like OpenBSD have openly refused to accept gayland because of limitations like epoll being hardcoded to the linux kernel.
You can't simultaneously argue that nobody has updated X11 in over a decade, and that it requires lots of support.
X was always a piece of shit and the fact that it was inseparable from GPU drivers was a major pain in the fricking ass. If you can't even get 3d acceleration without roping in a fricking specific windowing system your FOSS OS is fricking garbage.
Wayland is extremely tied to GPU drivers in exactly the same way DRI3 is in X11.
You can't implement working wayland (dma-buf protocol) and get anything working.
wayland was a lie
if it really was so well implemented it would just werk by now
>if it really was so well implemented it would just werk by now
No, 15 years isn't long enough
XD
It does.
I don't plan on ever switching to Wayland unless I'm brutally forced too. X is simple for me and doesn't bother me.
Enjoy your security problems.
Until wayland dies and everybody goes back to X11 and pretend to forget about it to save face.
The moment you installed a malicious application is game over, wayland "security" is harmful cause it creates a sense of false security.
You can sandbox possibly malicious applications and let them give GUI on Wayland
Can't do that with X since it can takeover your X session
Should have done X sandbox instead try rewrite it. X outlives another
>X sandbox
does something like that exist?
I'm quite sure that X11 window can intercept your whole screen (shared buffer... at least it used to be like that).
what is xwayland
it's okay when using wayland
somehow bad if implemented just on X
>https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html
>Weston listens on the X socket until a client attempts to connect, then launches the X server.
So it starts new X11 for every X11 app? Kind of smart.
>So it starts new X11 for every X11 app? Kind of smart.
Kind of moronic.
You could do this without wayland.
>You could do this without wayland.
Ikr, why did no one think of virtual X11 sessions, that could be embedded in some jail-client.
Eh? Like Xephyr? That already exists.
But this shit is useless anyway, just don't install malware lol
>just don't install malware lol
But everything on the internet is a cia/psyop/malware.
So you and your post? If that isn't true, then your statement isn't true, and if your statement isn't true then there is hope you can trust some things and if there is hope you can trust in some things, then there is hope you can be safe from bad things and if you can be safe from bad things then there must be good things that protect and if there are good things that protect then why would you install something that doesn't?
Some tradition is good and some is evil. You know the difference.
Hello psyop, I'm malware.
"Malware" is FUD and you're schizo if you seriously worry about it.
>Replacing Xephyr with the xf86-video-dummy and xf86-video-nested drivers in the normal X.Org server is being considered as part of X11R7.8.[2]
Dayum, cool stuff.
I've used Xephyer several times. It's great if you tinker with window managers, want to experiment with a new window manager, or you need to open a GUI only remote session. Xephyer has less overhead than vnc and it's equally if not more secure (depending on how you set up ssh). But let me guess, the usual Foss developers couldn't think of this use case.
>Xephyer has less overhead than vnc
This is good but doesn't mean vnc is bad.
btw here is your unthought of use case.
>doesn't mean vnc is bad
I use it if I need audio. Which I do sometimes because I record twitter spaces using an audio loopback. But setting up a VNC server is more a pain in the ass than just setting up SSH.
You can start a whole Desktop Environment in Xephyr and have it piped to your desktop with X11 forwarding. I've used this exact workflow to interact with GUI applications on remote machines. I guess I hadn't thought of using Xephyr for buggy/shitty applications. But I'll file this away with other X11 workflows that gayland breaks.
I applaud innovation, true innovation. I don't dislike Xephyr, so I hope that isn't how I am sounding, but I don't think we should throw away working parts. I am not some Alabama redneck with a yard full of scrap metal that wants it to rust rather than be recycled, but I also enjoy seeing model-Ts cruising dirt roads and going off road with led light bars for hunting feral pigs.
I've been using X for decades and never once been affected by a security problem.
Cause you didn't even care. How many people actually read change logs/CVE list?
What are you trying to say? That one affected me and I didn't even notice?
NTA but i don't understand the paranoia without showing logs with proof of malicious activity, ie the "holy shit it's real" proof of why you should care
>i don't understand the paranoia without showing logs
Nta, but shared buffer was sus af.
>X is simple
That's how I know you've never tried to program for X.
I'm not an X developer I'm an X user.
GNOME and KDE are just now dropping X
When they give up shilling Wayland and everyone goes back to X
>between
Pick a side, pussy.
Can some big brain confirm my understanding of wayland idea,
that each and every desktop environment has to implement X11 functionality on its own, to be team wayland.
Gayland will never replace X.
>transition period between X and Wayland?
What was X11 again? Some kind of 80s protocol?
Wayland already won and anyone who thinks otherwise is coping hard.
opinion discarded, arch pedotroony
here's your (You)
can I please ask why you have this shit saved on your PC. WTF is wrong with u
Seconding this, downloading Wayland is fricking disgusting and indefensible.
Wait are you guys talking about sissyD or the dicky because the answer tells me whether or not you're straight
We're talking about gayland, obviously.
>can I please ask why you have this shit saved on your PC
If you look closely, it's actually accessed from a network.
why are Wayland users usually pedophiles? actually even x11 users usually have that sysadmin pedophile look (ifykyk)
Because they have good taste.
It will never end. The Linux desktop is dead.
the normie npcs would never use the linux desktop anyway unless the computer they bought came with it preinstalled
Forever or short term. Nobody is abandoning X. Wayland's ability to stick around is in question. At the moment there isn't any effort to replace x11 with Wayland on the BSDs. There are ports for some of the BSDs and that's it. For OpenBSD, Theo has openly said that he isn't going to replace X. (The same is true of rust replacing C)
until the last wayland developer loses interest
until the last wayland developer hangs herself
>until the last wayland developer hangs herself
kek'd
Here's the thing, I'm not going to use it (I mean Wayland!)
I know... UGH, I know.
It's just, I'm not gonna use it is all.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
>Xephyr is a nested X server that runs as an X application.
>This may be useful to workaround a badly written application. For example, Supermicro servers may be controlled with a java ipmi kvm viewer application. While the server is rebooting, the application frequently recreates its window and steals focus from your current window. This happens several times per minute, and makes your work impossible. It is not obvious how to make a window rule that prevents such application's window from gaining focus when created, because focus must be given when launched for the first time. Using Xephyr allows you to keep these window recreations inside a separate window, which does not steal focus from your currently opened window(s).
What about it? I use it for some old vidya
Imagine setting up some trusty machine, then running all that cia-apps as sterile container-apps, alike what recent android does.
Why should I use Wayland over Arcan? If the main argument against X is "it's le old", then surely the newer alternative would make more sense. It seems to be making some great progress too.
Very quaint. I didn't even know xeyes had arguments. Does Wayland even come with programs much like how X comes with xterm and xcalc?
You should check out XMessage. You can create GUI applications from a shell script with buttons and user input.
If Arcan dev continues the latest push for X11 compatibility things including re-using old WMs, absolutely no reason. Guy is a machine.
>Arcan
will it be more performant than wayland/x in gayming?
X11, Wayland and Arcan all perform the same since games (opengl, vulkan) bypass the display server. The display server only comes in when you tell it to swap the buffer (or in the case of wayland it does that automatically). They all even use the exact same linux interface (drm) and mesa gbm.
Hail Satan!
X or Wayland, as long as it's Openbox I don't give a shit what's running behind the scenes.
Is Xephir + LXC a real slim shady settup?
*Incus
>Incus is a container and virtual-machine manager.
>Based on LXC for containers and QEMU for virtual machines, it offers a seamless cloud-like experience scaling from a developer's laptop to a full cluster of up to 50 servers.
In addition to managing containers and VMs, Incus also provides a variety of options to manage storage and network.
>https://linuxcontainers.org/incus
Fedora already delayed removing Gnome on Xorg in Fedora 40, and even then with 41 you can optionally install Xorg. As long as Xorg gets kept being used as a crutch and until they rip the bandaid off Wayland will always be an experiment.
Wayland is basically living in Xorg's basement instead of getting their own place.
>sterile container-apps
I mean setting up LXC minimal-ubuntu + some app is quite straightforward. But then if you can easily contain X11... The possibilities!
>You can't simultaneously argue that nobody has updated X11 in over a decade, and that it requires lots of support.
WISE
I'm wondering what does it take to develop a "native" wayland app
>You should check out XMessage
I came
I give Wayland a test drive every so often, and every time there's something that makes me think it's just not ready to daily drive yet. Maybe one day...
Is X11 still broken when using multiple monitors with different resolutions?
What do you mean? that has always worked
>multiple monitors with different resolutions
works fine, always has
Forever. Frick wayland it's not a reasonable solution to X11's problems.
>transition
I hate open source so much it's unreal
15-20 years, unironically. If something else doesn't come along and replace Wayland.
waylands pretty good and so is X
frick this moronic desktop war
infinite time, because Wayland isn't replacing X. I've more money on Arcan doing it than Wayland at this rate
When all distros stop supporting X and force people to use Wayland, like how Windows removes the things that work well to replace them with shit.
Never, because if all distros drop X some autist will make a distro with X. This is the good thing about FOSS
That's what they said about Systemd but Devuan and Artix exist.
you guys still posting nonstop about wayland? cope harder and maybe it will be adopted someday,
idk. i'm sticking with X until Wayland is completely ready. 15 years is pretty fricking insane tho and i don't think i'm being too cautious.
Gayland will never be ready because it's flawed idea maintained by lazy, entitled fricks that just refuse to do their job and instead just point fingers yelling "IT'S NOT OUR FAULT THAT SHIT'S NOT WORKING! THE EVIL SOFTWARE DEVS DID IT!".
At this stage you have greater chance to win million in lottery than live long enough to see Wayland in usable state.
>How long will we be in this awkward transition period between X and Wayland?
Is Twitter being renamed again?
>awkward transition period between X and Wayland
>Is Twitter being renamed again?
underrated
All this shit is pushing me to become a Hackinotsh user and a mac gay once that isn't possible anymore.
Frick off back to the farms. The only thing objectionable about drew is his politics.
>Oh muh gerd, he doesn't want spam bots on gemini
>Oh muh gerd, he'll hekkin' block you for DDOSing his server
>The only thing objectionable about drew is his politics.
Wayland is political so congrats on the self-own I guess.
They should have added 3 more display servers to the mix and let them compete. At the moment current wayland-x drama is boring and gives us nothing of value.
>They should have added 3 more display servers to the mix
Wayland will be ready for there YOTLD... so never.