How were they so accurate at guessing before genetic tools existed that the original Aryans were closest to northern Europeans?
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How were they so accurate at guessing before genetic tools existed that the original Aryans were closest to northern Europeans?
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These guys were Tocharians.
That's a andronvo sample/indo iranians, pic related is a tocharian.
Proto-Tocharian most likely. The tocharians from the middle ages won't resemble them.
That's Afanasievo of Mongolia who are not ancestral to Tocharians.
Tocharians did look like that.
Afansaievo was the most likely ancestor of tocharians
Not genetically the Afanasievo weren't.
It doesn't matter. The Tocharians and proto-Tocharians looked like the populations in OP's pic.
No. These samples show up only in andronovo related lba graves.
They show up everywhere including places where andronovo isn't.
Afanseivo were tocharians
Genetically there is evidence they were not related.
What evidence?
Tocharian samples do not match Afansievo samples.
There are no tocharian samples. By iron age none of them looked like op anyway and tocharians were first attested in the middle ages.
There are dozens of samples from Tocharian sites. None of them match with Afansievo but there are matches with Andronovo.
What tocharians sites?
Wutulan and others.
Wutulun aren't tocharians, they are all andronovo/iranic
Wutulan were Tocharians. Andronvo wasn't Iranic either.
Andronovo was entirely iranic, tocharians showed similarities with hallsatt culture that wasnt present in any of the andronovo sites but was present in afansevo.
Andronovo was pre Indo-Iranic.
No, it was entirely iranic
Andronovo wasnt pre-Iranic either
Tocharians have nothing to do with any hallstatt.
>Wutulan were Tocharians
they were Scythians or other Iranics not Tocharians
What tocharian samples?
Iranics looked more northern european
>Tocharian samples do not match Afansievo samples.
there are no Tocharian samples
Because he’s talking out of his ass, like every other brown shill here
moron cope
I don't know how can you tell this. The region was inhabited by both tocharians and iranians. And these guys look like iranians.
Tocharians inhabited the Tarim Basin. They did have a resemblance to andronovo.
Even the iron age samples from that region don't look like that anymore. And tocharians are known from middle ages.
Iranians. Tocharians won't look like that.
I don't know why you play this moronic game. You know it's wrong and you know that steppe mlba were iranians. And these late bronze age sanples are similar to them. You alsno know if you played with models that all iron age xinjiang samples have additional east asian and/or iranian (bmac/farmer) ancestry. So what's the point of this thread?
Tocharians could be only afanasievo. Dzungarian samples are a mix of afanasievo, east asians and ba tarim. Dzungaria is in xinjiang, north of tarim. It's hardly a wild guess to imagine them moving south and settling there.
Thread full of we wuzzers/appropriators
Indo-Iranians are the least interesting ethnolinguistic group ever
You sure?
Positive
Are those fine gentlemen Persians?
Indians, Jats maybe. Jats have more steppe ancestry than people from Germany.
They don't have more steppe ancestry than germans.
Yes they do.
More than the French at least
"Steppe ancestry" is not Andronovo or even South Yamnaya. It's the whole of Yamnaya migratory pool and essentially what you're saying is impossible, since Germans are Celto-Slavo-Germanic mutts. So all primarily Corded Ware people, whereas Indians are 20% Indo-Aryan to begin with, IAs being already somewhat mixed in Central Asia.
Jats still have more of it than Germans and French
You don't know what "it" is. IAs are descendants of Yamnaya completely through Corded Ware. You can't out Corded Ware the Corded Ware. "Steppe" just means IAs in your chart, most likely.
only other possibility is that this counts some Afanasievo ascendance, which is non-Vedic.
'It' is Steppe_EMBA
It's not possible for any Indians to be 40% steppe EMBA
troony tier cope
Pretty sure Jats would plot closer to the Euros if that were true
Much like how you will never be a woman, facts will never care about your feelings
ok Onge cuck
Dumbass pajeet
Germany has some Roman ancestry too iirc
nice asspull
WE WUZ LITERALLY HYPERBOREANS AND SHIEET
REMINDER THAT TOCHARIANS WERE RELATED TO ITALO-CELTS R1B AND LIKELY INTRODUCED THE YIN-YANG SYMBOL TO CHINA. THE OLDEST INSTANCES OF THE SYMBOL ARE FOUND IN EUROPE
WE WUZ LAO TZU AND SHIEET
It wasn't. If anything it was related to Yamnaya Z2103 (probably Anatolian and Graeco-Armenian).
How did it get to Ireland?
Phoenicians
Posting all I have
They didn't have it
I'm haplogroup I1 and have always identified with cavemen. Anyone here feel like a caveman in a modern world?
Everyone's a caveman if you think about it
Yeah, that's true, but I feel like extra caveman
You probably shouldn't as I1 became dominant in Scandinavians when their culture became more sophisticated.
Where did I1 come from? Wiki and Google kind of give this vague arrived thousands of years ago and then mutated answer.
It was in Europe, but in low numbers. Where the Scandinavian I1 came from is not known. But it became the main Nordic Bronze Age lineage.
Interesting. Wonder why it appears as late as the Nordic Bronze Age.
Here's some infor from an unpublished study that focuses on ancient South Scandinavia.
1. An early stage between ~4,600 BP and 4,300 BP, where Scandinavians cluster with early
673 CWC individuals from Eastern Europe, rich in Steppe-related ancestry and males with an R1a Y674 chromosomal haplotype
2. an intermediate stage until c. 3,800 BP,
675 where they cluster with central and western Europeans dominated by males with distinct sub676 lineages of R1b-L5
and includes Danish
677 individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752) with distinct cranial features
3. a final stage from c. 3,800 BP onwards, where a distinct cluster of
679 Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig.
680 8E). Using individuals associated with this cluster (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) as sources in
681 supervised ancestry modelling (see “postBA”, Extended Data Fig. 4), we find that it forms the
682 predominant source for later Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavians, as well as ancient European
683 groups outside Scandinavia who have a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association
About I1.
Y-chromosome haplogroup I1 is one of the dominant
685 haplogroups in present-day Scandinavians,s, and we document its earliest occurrence in a ~4,000-
686 year-old individual from Falköping in southern Sweden (NEO220). The rapid expansion of this
687 haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry in the early Nordic Bronze Age indicates a
688 considerable reproductive advantage of individuals associated with this cluster over the preceding
689 groups across large parts of Scandinavia.
Can anyone summarize these findings for me? Not sure what precisely all this means
It became common through elite dominance in the Scandi bronze age and spread to other places when Germanics invaded the rest of Europe
What this guy said
Most likely it was from Denmark or Sweden in very low frequency prior to NBA
How does it work here the elite knew they were I1? Did they just stick together as a family and breed like rabbits? Just curious, please humor me.
>one man becomes king
>he has a lot of children
>his haplogroup becomes common
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/09/commoner-or-elite.html
I would love a genetic profile of I1-M253
it's probably just one or a few elite families and snowballed with subsequent generations + population boom.
The latest big paper had some info about that
Finally, we investigated the fine-scale genetic structure in southern Scandinavia after the introduction of Steppe-related ancestry using a temporal transect of 38 Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Danish and southern Swedish individuals.
>Although the overall population genomic signatures suggest genetic stability, patterns of pairwise IBD-sharing and Y-chromosome haplogroup distributions indicate at least three distinct ancestry phases during a ~1,000-year time span: i) An early stage between ~4,600 BP and 4,300 BP, where Scandinavians cluster with early CWC individuals from Eastern Europe, rich in Steppe-related ancestry and males with an R1a Y674 chromosomal haplotype (Extended Data Fig. 8A, ; ii)
>an intermediate stage until c. 3,800 BP, where they cluster with central and western Europeans dominated by males with distinct sub lineages of R1b-L51 (Extended Data Fig. 8C, D; Supplementary Note 3b) and includes Danish individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752) with distinct cranial features (Supplementary Note 6);
>and iii) a final stage from c. 3,800 BP onwards, where a distinct cluster of Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig.
680 8E). Using individuals associated with this cluster (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) as sources in supervised ancestry modelling (see “postBA”, Extended Data Fig. 4), we find that it forms the predominant source for later Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavians, as well as ancient European groups outside Scandinavia who have a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association (e.g., Anglo-Saxons, Goths; Extended Data Fig. 4). Y-chromosome haplogroup I1 is one of the dominant haplogroups in present-day Scandinavians,s, and we document its earliest occurrence in a ~4,000- year-old individual from Falköping in southern Sweden (NEO220). The rapid expansion of this haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry in the early Nordic Bronze Age indicates a considerable reproductive advantage of individuals associated with this cluster over the preceding groups across large parts of Scandinavia.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v2
other anon got there first I see
Got one for R1B-DF27?
Illyrians.
Slavs.
Nordic Bronze Age.
Slavs again.
R-Z282 is much older than Slavs, try R-M458 for Slavs
Both are Slavic markers. I'm guessing Z282 could be originally Balto-Slavic.
Z282 is just broadly Corded Ware. Some clades of it like Z284 are pretty much only found in Scandinavia while others are almost exclusive to Balts. M458 is more pan-Slavic and therefore more associated with proto-Slavs imo.
Trzciniec maybe.
Z282 spread much earlier than that but M458 could have been a Trzciniec haplogroup
It's not common there. One Z2103 has been found among Corded Ware so probably with Beakers or with some later group.
Pretty simple, linguistics were right the whole time. The language of the proto Indo Europeans showed that Ukraine through northern Kazakhstan and Iran were all likely birth places of the Indo Europeans and then mythological accounts of migrations ended up having some truth to them. That and ancient record keepers seem to indicate steppe Black folk were blonde, tall, and robust like northern euros
No. It's Russia, close to Caucasus. Different people lived in Ukraine or Kazakhstan, let alone in Iran.
90% of those linguistic theories are bullshit in light of modern genetics
>linguists pinpoint home of proto Indo Europeans based of words for trees and livestock
>Ukraine is projected Homeland
>Yamnaya genetic studies show their homeland exactly where linguists projected
>it's all bullshit?!?!?!
The derivatives we wuz greeks, romans, anatolian etruscans and so on. I guess Nords can latch onto street shitters
Nordics are more of an outlier than Indians, Greeks, Celts, Italics. The nordics share more common ancestry with native Americans and even share mythological stories from Siberia and native north Americans.
Nordics are almost genetically identical to insular celts… lol
I don't know what this means to be honest. I only know a handful of thing.